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dragon-in-a-fez · 8 years ago

Note

(1/3) thanks for being so comprehensive! just from reading your other writing I should have been able to intuit that providing more opportunities for children to consent to what is being done to/around them would underlie that system. regarding your comments about 'correcting' children, this is something else I've wondered about.

(2/3) I'm getting married this year & my partner and I have already decided that we'd most likely someday like children, and that we'd like to provide as much opportunity as possible for self-expression and (bodily and other) autonomy for the child as possible. basically, is it ever acceptable to make a child do something that offers long-term, non-immediate benefits - i.e. participating in education, through a school or otherwise; helping with chores so we can have a clean house?

(3/3) it's something I'm wondering about off the back you saying children should be treated as equal members of the family - does giving them equal rights to other members of the family require they be given similar (but obviously tailored for their ability) responsibilities? what do parents do when children simply do not want to participate in something that will benefit them and may be crucial for later in life?

note: long post, response under the read more, doesn’t always work on mobile, etc etc

I’m so glad to see people thinking about this stuff, and I’m really happy when my thoughts help with that!

so...is it ever acceptable to “make” an adult do something that offers long-term, non-immediate benefits? I mean, kinda. sometimes. ish. as a society we don’t really have a great answer for that, except, “try not to get to that point”.

most kids are eager to start school. a little separation anxiety might happen at first, but most kids, on balance, enjoy school in the first couple of years. it’s the factory-model, compulsory education system that makes kids stop wanting to go and start viewing it as a daily soul-sucking misadventure, not the act of learning. making education consensual, giving choices in how it’s accomplished, and giving voice in where and when it happens usually, in my experience, fixes that. I’ve worked in several democratic schools over the years and I only once encountered a young person who honestly didn’t want to be there every day. and guess what? she moved to another alternative, and was much happier. it can be really hard to find alternatives to the traditional model - especially since most private schools follow basically the same philosophy as public schools - but I really encourage you to try.

in terms of educating kids on specific topics that will “have long-term benefits”, which is what the public education system always claims it’s doing...honestly, I’d say that’s bullshit, in 2017 if it wasn’t in the past. developing transferrable learning, communication, self-management, and creativity skills is more important, and you can do that studying dinosaurs as easily as you can studying Richard III, so why force kids to study one over the other? besides which, career paths are so many and varied and convoluted now, we have an ever-decreasing ability to predict what even a reasonable majority of people might need to know for their specific jobs twenty years down the line. half the jobs held by today’s 30-year-olds didn’t even exist when those people were in school.

I once had a ten-year-old kid who I was teaching to read because he’d never been interested before and his parents and the wonderful learning center he was at hadn’t forced him. he picked everything up incredibly fast because he was interested and driven. you know what else I was teaching the same kid at the same time? Cartesian philosophy. the lockstep, this-leads-to-that approach we’re used to is such crap.

as for chores, responsibilities...well, how are they shared between roommates? between couples? between people who share an office kitchen? probably by mutual understanding, maybe a chart or something. the occasional passive-aggressive note on the fridge. but no overbearing micromanaging. if I’m living with a friend, maybe we have an expectation that it’s his turn to take out the garbage this week. maybe we argue about it if he puts it off for three days after the bin is full. but do I stand over him yelling at him for being a layabout and threatening to take away his xbox if he doesn’t do it right this instant? I mean, probably not - if I do, I’m a shitty friend and roommate, aren’t I?

with a bunch of kids I babysat a while back, I took the initiative to change the “chore chart” the parents had on the wall, which listed all the kids and gave them jobs like “laundry” or “dishes” on specific days. the change I made? I added some slots for myself. the important thing wasn’t that I was seen to be pulling my weight - they knew that already - it was that I was working under the same system they were. same expectations. same deadlines. same frequency of the same kinds of tasks. complaints about doing the dishes went down from, like, 15 times daily to once a week. and bonus, they helped hold each other to account because they saw the fairness of the system.

also, I feel like, if the goal is to teach someone that taking out the garbage is important, maybe doing it myself even if it’s not my turn sends that message better than fighting with them about it for more than thirty seconds. because if I keep fighting and the garbage just sits there for hours or days, then what am I doing? I’m sending the message that the garbage isn’t what matters - I just want to enforce obedience. and what’s the best way to ensure a human being defies your wishes? acting like you have the right to order them around.

of course, there’s also the handy “I literally can’t cook dinner, which is my job today, until I have clean dishes to use to do so, which is your job”. like, clear and rational consequences tend to make people get a move on.

so basically: model responsibility; give options; negotiate; work together. is it going to work perfectly and avoid all contact? hell no. is it going to ensure everyone pulls their weight all the time? of course not. who’s ever had a roommate that always did their chores on time anyway? but parents who act like shouting about everything until it’s done their way works any better are off their rockers.

#seedybest

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enbylesbie · 12 years ago

Conversation

In which the Aviators spend an hour making ASoIaF puns

[21:25:57] : We sseem to have Lorast our direction, let's get back to the GoT puns

[21:26:00] : winger is legitimately trying to explain how genitals are communist because i bribed her

[21:26:26] : Arya willing to continue?

[21:26:43] : In the game of thrones, you Tywin or you die

[21:26:49] : i'm afraid all i have to contribute is "winter isn't the only thing that's coming"

[21:27:00] : Hsufiirjege

[21:27:05] : asgas

[21:27:14] : my work here is done

[21:27:17] * quixote ascends

[21:27:38] : Proceed direnly to Go, collect two hundred dollas

[21:27:41] : Dollars

[21:28:00] : You just slew all the compeddardtors

[21:28:04] : I don't think I can do GoT puns Clergane

[21:28:10] : I Cersei what you did there

[21:28:19] : That was Sansational

[21:28:20] : Welp I guess this is my cue to leave then,

[21:28:40] : Oh yeah Darcy and I had a GoT pun war yesterday, it was beautiful

[21:29:01] : Who won?

[21:29:09] : everyone

[21:29:26] : He did. I was Robbed of a chance at victory by falling asleep

[21:29:34] : hah

[21:29:40] : i get that reference

[21:30:01] : (That said I really had no chance after 'Lannistergeon's Law' holy shit)

[21:30:19] : Dany worry, you have a chance to keep going now

[21:30:21] : We'll you'd best Ygritte your teeth Jenny, we could be here a while

[21:30:47] : We don't mean to Hound you

[21:30:53] : I rickon I should be able to come up with far more of these than I am

[21:30:57] : It's okay, I'll find new friends.

[21:31:08] : All bets are joff when it comes to fandoms

[21:31:23] : hah

[21:31:29] : Aw, come on, join the Frey

[21:31:35] : I really want to make some puns but they just aren't Tommen

[21:31:37] : (Ahh Jenny you're the same with Farthing Wood :p)

[21:32:09] : Aemon not particularly good at this either

[21:32:14] : (But I guess it's okay if you really can't Stannis game of thrones talk)

[21:32:14] * Murray ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

[21:32:34] : (It's really more that every single person but me likes it so I'm alone.)

[21:32:39] : I won't dany, I'm riverrunning out of ideas

[21:32:52] : (regardless I am now going on formspring so carry on)

[21:32:59] : (It's how I feel about more than a few things Jenny, I just go and play a game)

[21:33:02] : I'm sorry to cause you Payne

[21:33:12] : Can't anyone else Drogo on much longer?

[21:33:15] : I guess you're out of your renleague

[21:33:33] : We'll probably Osha in a new topic sun

[21:33:35] : *soon

[21:33:43] : give me a mormont, I'll think of something

[21:33:46] : It's ok mari, I'll just use some stanisthetic

[21:33:55] : But then we'd be Missandei fun!

[21:34:20] : PERF

[21:34:29] : We Arryn't gonna get sick of this any time soon are we

[21:34:36] : I call shenanigans, you shouldn't have met her yet

[21:34:45] : this is all beautiful

[21:34:56] : No, I Cat say I have met her.

[21:35:25] : Syriously?

[21:35:30] : This is getting Eddarduous

[21:35:34] : You must me Jaquen

[21:35:40] : Jeor are you up to?

[21:35:56] : I Shaen't be meeting for her a while

[21:36:21] : must be jaqen*, Jorah fool Darcy

[21:36:24] : H'gharen't you on book two yet?

[21:36:31] : I'm Myrely getting up to the end of the firt book

[21:36:37] : *first

[21:36:43] : I'vs entarly finished the first book and am nearly halfway through the second

[21:36:50] : It's taking me Forelver

[21:36:52] * xach ([email protected]) has joined #aviatoradicators

[21:36:58] : Hi Zach!

[21:36:59] : hey zachers

[21:37:03] : itt: game of thrones

[21:37:21] : Hi Zach! Essos good to see you!

[21:37:34] : hello

[21:37:41] : We're being Varys silly

[21:37:52] : It's a seyrieously good thread

[21:37:57] : Are you doing Samwell?

[21:38:20] : im listening to the drifters

[21:38:23] : Aemonestly getting to the end of my rope

[21:38:32] : unsurprising

[21:38:33] : Targaryan't keep this much longer

[21:38:39] : *this up

[21:38:42] : I shall return a a Mormont, I need water

[21:39:02] : I'm beginning to Petyr out and I never Reedly got started

[21:39:09] : best what even is that pun supposed to be

[21:39:16] : the targaryan one

[21:39:18] : You just Rhaegotta think outside the box

[21:39:25] : Can't, it was a lazy one

[21:39:36] : My options are getting more maegor by the second

[21:40:05] : We should just give it up before Jenny has all our heads on a Pyke

[21:40:09] : hA

[21:40:15] : Can't Martell how far ahead Darcy is

[21:40:23] : I feelia like I'm running out but it's not over til it's over

[21:41:04] : At least we'll have another chat to aDorne the aviates tag with

[21:41:09] : Don't Pycelle yourselves short best

[21:41:18] : yourself*

[21:41:55] : This will dwarf the recent logs in the tag, by length

[21:42:07] : You are the undisputed grandmaester of it though, Darcy

[21:42:08] : pffffft

[21:42:13] : It might yet dragon for a while

[21:42:48] : I will admit some of my mine have been a bit of a Reach

* Retrieving #aviatoradicators modes...

[21:43:07] : You can Gedryme best

[21:43:17] : Okay I think I'm about to hit a Wall here

[21:43:24] : The important thing is that you Trident

[21:43:25] : Oh, so you just wanted Drogo on so you had things to post in the tag?

[21:43:28] : Aemon to you

[21:43:32] : Dragonstone the crows! We've been at this for ages

[21:43:37] : Bravos to you all

[21:44:06] : I don't want to harrenhalt though

[21:44:27] : But heck if you guys are acsepting things like dwarf and dragon then I could go a little longer

[21:44:34] : I haven't winterfellt this good all day

[21:45:04] : Then Red Keep going

[21:45:29] : I don't Meereen to bang on, but you guys are wonderful

[21:45:32] : Well, most of us are having fun as far as I can Martell

[21:45:54] : It would be unkind to call a Hoat when we're all in such good spirits

[21:46:06] : Honestly I can imagine this going from dusk til Doran

[21:46:38] : Brienne it on

[21:46:40] : Qarth we call it a draw?

[21:47:11] : No, I was about to use that in a pun. You didn't have to Qarth across me like that :c

[21:47:17] : We can call it a Victarion for all of us

[21:48:07] : This has no context but I must use it: Ashaddauppa yo face :v

[21:48:19] : Ibben cruel to you, Rach, I hope you can see how Pentostent I'm feeling

[21:48:40] : Casterly all get along?

[21:48:43] : theonretically we could go on without ghiscarding any potential puns

[21:48:47] : I'll Khal it even then

[21:49:02] : Yi Ti good to me

[21:49:26] : Let us all eat, drink and be Mirri

[21:49:49] : On second thougts, Jon't do that

[21:49:55] : I'll get the drinks, who's feeling like a glass of sherry or Lannisport?

[21:50:15] : In Stark contrast to how we usually are, where we only Edmure each others' company

[21:50:43] : Yeah, we're normally all so Volantile

[21:51:01] : Let's not be Mirri. I promise if anyone here is strapped to a pyre, I will abenjen them!

[21:51:16] : I need to Lorask for a reprieve, I haven't been able to stop laughing long enough to reach the keyboard

[21:51:41] : Yoren trouble now!

[21:51:55] : Yeah, I'd be Lyanna all of you if I said laughing made typing easy

[21:52:09] : I think we can Dothraki Sea it in our hears to accept your Astaporlogy

[21:52:12] : *hearts

[21:52:52] : We'be Xhoan that we're bad at stopping though, so reprieve denied

[21:53:03] : I'm having a metric septon of difficulty

[21:53:18] : Asshain't be able to stop soon, I think

[21:53:22] : http://mitunafish.tumblr.com/

[21:53:29] : But this is a mordaneary day in aviators

[21:53:30] : (cant breathe anymore)

[21:53:30] : I'd like you all to look at this for a moment

[21:53:41] : Hahaha

[21:53:58] : Process that this is a thing somebody has actually done.

[21:54:04] : Hoarded a URL /they don't want/

[21:54:21] : (Also, just saying heart =>: Oakheart)

[21:54:48] : (Cheers, Mari)

[21:55:23] : This whole thing has been a mancederpiece

[21:55:29] : They'll probably Ygritte doing that

[21:56:06] : Hang on guys, I don't think it's as Castle Black and white as that

[21:56:09] : (Oh that reminds me I actually got cerulean-privilege I think)

[21:56:15] : Jeor sure you don't wanna stop?

[21:56:25] : OK I think I'm shagwell and truly done

[21:56:42] : I dont like he Sandor that

[21:56:46] : The

[21:57:09] : You can sorta Martell we're having trouble with doing this through laughter

[21:57:12] : I'd rather be Gregored by a boar than stop

[21:57:45] : I just can't Vargo on

[21:58:10] : You guys are the best Brave companions a guy could ask for

[21:58:10] : What if we just locked Best in a Myrcell?

[21:58:37] : Hey! I Renlysemble that remark

[21:58:58] : I'm sorry, you are pretty on the Balon

[21:59:11] : bvgfh gdfhs

[21:59:46] : Didn't quite catch that, would you like to Tryell again?

[21:59:53] : I'm pretty sure we're all punbent, punbowed, punbroken

[22:00:01] : hsfdjk;sdgfhjsdghjsf

[22:00:04] : Whoops Norton won.

[22:00:06] : I might have to go offline to go to the shops later guys; we're out of Margaeryine

[22:00:16] : I Doran know Notron, Darcy seems pretty broken

[22:00:39] : Darcy either make puns or Quentyn down

[22:01:07] : Whoa there friend, you might Ned to slow down

[22:01:14] : We Do Not Know if Darcy's going to make a recovery.

[22:01:30] : bvnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[22:01:38] : help

[22:01:40] : I'm tempted to Robb him of his keyboard

[22:01:44] : Euron right, Darcy?

[22:01:50] : no

[22:02:04] : No, you bran't just type n forever

[22:02:04] : He's lost all Sansa of decorum

[22:02:06] : Theonretically, you could be having a heart attack

[22:02:19] : Oakheart

[22:02:30] : ((I'LL GET THERE)))

[22:02:54] : Eh, I Rickon if he was having a heart attack then he wouldn't be able to press 'Enter'

[22:03:04] : I don't know Mari, if you say the same pun more than once it gets a bit repetyrtive

[22:03:06] : I'm fine, I'm just over the moonboy

[22:03:08] : Though All Men Do Despise Him, he remains cobblivious

[22:03:17] : Ops, Norton won again

[22:03:34] : bnjnknjk,,.iiiiiininnnnnnnnnn

[22:04:05] : I'm not even sure if he's still getting Greyjoy out of this

[22:04:18] : ((But he /didn't/ use the pun yet, that's the problem))

[22:04:28] : I'm laughing so hard it mght make me rerorgeitate

[22:04:43] : Reekly, Darcy? TMI

[22:05:08] : Try not to hurt yourself too viserysly

[22:05:24] : Darcy's become a Roose cannon

[22:05:26] : I think he's taking a somewhat crasterfarian attitude, he seems as high as stoner

[22:05:52] : ((I was gonna shoot that one down but then I saw the second pun))

[22:06:33] : There's really Snow end in sight to this Storm, is there

[22:06:45] : We're Meeraly getting started

[22:06:59] : I'm sorry about the puns guys, I know you Hear Me Bore you to tears a lot

[22:07:31] : Ours is the Fury of puns

[22:07:58] : Selmy oh my is it already 10pm?

[22:08:13] : For this channel is dark and full of wordplay.

[22:08:56] : Chella you serious?

[22:09:30] : Where'd Jory go :V

[22:09:31] : it's eyrie how many we're coming up with

[22:09:54] : Fire and Bloodn't you like to know, Rach?

[22:10:08] : I would, Betht

[22:10:16] : Our puns are Growing Stronger

[22:10:29] : i can't contribute that's where i went

[22:11:02] : Cassel all your appointments and watch the series, Jory

[22:11:10] : will do

[22:11:24] : i see what you did there rach

[22:11:39] : Pour yourself some Redwyne

[22:11:46] : My sister just told me to hotpiep down. I'm laughing too loud

[22:12:14] : Ooops, gotta Bolton, brb

[22:12:56] : ... Or apparenlty not

[22:12:56] : Ok I actually went phonekind to read clash of kings soooooo I'm going to do just that

[22:13:19] : Ping or pm me, call me beep me if u wanna reach me, etc

[22:14:34] : I think I might Get some Baelish and milk actually, so yes to brb

[22:19:03] : Aaaaaand spent

[22:20:11] : ((Best, you left your Tia Maria at my place.))

[22:20:21] : Aw hell

[22:21:54] : Holy Christ we did that for an HOUE

[22:21:56] : *HOUR

[22:22:14] : ... Holy fuck

[22:22:32] : You seem surprised

[22:22:36] : have you met us

[22:22:40] : or you

[22:23:04] : I've met me loads of times. We're quite good friends.

[22:23:16] : I just didn't know he and his friends had that kind of stamina, though.

[22:23:26] : I haven't met myself yet, so I'm assuming I don't invent time travel

[22:23:27] : wonk