#see i would've accepted some of the criticism if it hadn't made it clear she hadn't read all that much literature in her life

[windupaidoneus]

if i ever say i don't hold grudges beat me upside the head with a rock bc a friend once gave me "constructive criticism" on my writing in terms of prose rather than how good &/or logical the story in itself was (which was what i was asking feedback on) & on top of that all her "constructive criticism" was the stupidest fucking advice i'd ever been given & was all for things i did deliberately as part of my writing style & to this day i am unwilling to read any of her writing bc i know if i do i will be ruthless in my "constructive criticism"

[sonickedtrowel]

So, long ask warning again. 😬 I'm back (if I can!).

Oh yeah. I agree with your criticism - was just thinking in terms of what the show gave us. There's precedent set (like 10 never telling Rose and THAT being a super huge "omg" moment several times throughout his time). I can see them not saying it a lot, but I do firmly believe like you that the Dr definitely told River they love her a lot more than we saw. And yeah, Let's Kill Hitler definitely was a confession - they can pry that from our cold dead hands because there's absolutely nothing else he could've said.

I mean someone could argue River always had a back up plan when she jumped out of the buildings etc but like. She absolutely didn't lmao. Opening an airlock to space? Jumping out of the high rise in 1969? Like I think Moffat wanted to create "unrest" to make it "spicy" or something - like how most TV shows won't let couples be domestic and happy - bc he definitely did that with Amy and Rory their entire time for... Absolutely no reason and attributed to about 85% of why I didn't like 11's run too much the first time I saw it. Hadn't noticed TATM was the shift for Dr/River's dynamic, but you're right (and come to think of it, wasn't that like... The first time they ever brought up "he doesn't like endings" like ever?? I mean it'd make sense, with meta and analysation, but if I remember correctly 11 didn't really show any emotions before then about endings - hell, he seemed p content in the Big Bang 2). And I would've liked to have seen it, too, if Moffat was gonna pull that shit like he did. At least give us the good angst feels (with the comfort later or else why have it at all lol) and not just say, "lol so River has more angst but we don't have time to get into that right now (or ever)." Bc I remember the first time I saw THoRS and being so confused - bc where did all that come from???? Fics have made good of what's been given but Moffat really went, "lol continuity whomst. Everything must be dark and mysterious!"

I agree with your analysis of it lol - they kinda left no other way to do it. I wish we'd gotten more of a breakdown after the Ponds. Like we know 11 became a broody sod for a year and then Clara magically pulled him out and he never really brooded again. And I suppose River saying she's fresh from Manhattan MIGHT explain why we never see more from her about it. But her being fresh from Manhattan and being perfectly okay and like That with Ramone during THoRS??? Doesn't really make sense. She's got bravado and can put up a show but there's no point to that when no one around would need the extra show (and she didn't even need to go and be around people at all, which I kinda feel like she probably didn't, at least not for a while). Esp since she didn't realize who 12 was and had accepted the Dr must be somewhere else. But yeah, Moffat was hella wrong (about far more than their established dynamic lol).

You’re so right.  Like, let’s start with JUST some quotes from River’s introductory episodes.  AND I KNOW, this is after Darillium, but I think we can all agree at the time it was written there was no intention for Darillium to have been 24 years and that this reflects her attitude to their relationship basically up to and, in fact, including TATM. RIVER: Thanks. DOCTOR: For what? RIVER: The usual. For coming when I call. RIVER: I trust this man with my life, with everything. LUX: You've only just met him. RIVER: No, he's only just met me. DOCTOR: I don't give my screwdriver to anyone. RIVER: I'm not anyone. ANITA: You say he's your friend, but he doesn't even know who you are. RIVER: Listen, all you need to know is this. I'd trust that man to the end of the universe. And actually, we've been. RIVER: You know when you see a photograph of someone you know, but it's from years before you knew them. and it's like they're not quite finished. They're not done yet. Well, yes, the Doctor's here. He came when I called, just like he always does. DOCTOR: I bet I like you. RIVER: Oh, you do. Then we have the Angels... DOCTOR: I'm nobody's taxi service. I'm not going to be there to catch you every time you feel like jumping out of a space ship. RIVER: And you are so wrong.  (I know they play this as a double-entendre but it’s clear she’s not only talking about the angel.  I mean, SHE JUMPED OUT THE SPACE SHIP.) Anyway I don’t really think I need to go on, it’s CLEAR River was under no illusions of how much she meant to the Doctor and had no doubts that he’d always show up when she called so I really really hate how we have to either reverse-engineer a mostly-off screen relationship crisis after TATM or just let her rant in THORS tinge everything we’ve seen of entire their relationship up to that point, which seems very unfair to all involved, audience definitely included. However I do think River is very far from being okay in the beginning of THORS, in a lot of ways she’s reverted to the chaotic behavior she got up to more when she was young, and does not seem at all like the much more settled older River we know, even though this is as old as she’ll be before the Library.  She’s messing around with fuckboys and though she gives the impassioned rant to Hydroflax about how she’s going to right his wrongs then she just goes to fence the diamond lol.  I see 11′s behavior in 7B (tried sulking, didn’t work, now I’m going to pick up a new human and go have adventures and ignore all of my problems and feelings) as very much the same sort of thing.  But like.  GIVE US SOME MORE CONTEXT PLEASE.  OR AT LEAST LET US KNOW THIS WAS GOING ON WHILE IT WAS GOING ON AND NOT WAY AFTER????  And now bc of this we get shit like James Goss’s takes on their relationship in BF and UUUuuuUUUUuuuughhhhhhhhhh Yea I’ll be ranting about this till the end of my days, it’s fine, it’s fine

I’m so tired