#sebaciel fans built the fandom and i acknowledge that

[mywitchcultblr]

Aight because there's a new kuro anime I have to say this and I'll only say this once. I dont get the people who vehemently deny the existence of sebaciel elements in kuro.

Look its valid if you are not into certain ship but screaming 24/7 that sebaciel aspects in this series is not real, and hating on the shipper all the time, insisting the shipper 'doesn't get it' and 'this is not what Yana wanted' and claimed the fandom hates sebaciel shipper (acting like fandom colonist) make no sense...

I saw someone said "I dont really have anything against /those shippers/ bc how can i blame them for liking (ok i kinda blame them) something that's there poisoning the entire manga, but im tired of thinking about that disturbing visual baiting"

Sebaciel is not poisoning Kuroshitsuji, sebaciel bait and the development of ciel relationship with sebastian is the whole thing

I personally always been pretty neutral about sebaciel, its just the thing that happen naturally in the series ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people went as far as insisting that Sebastian is Ciel father figure and all of the romantic bait between them are totally platonic father and son moments. I'm sorry but this is such a cope

"I don't like this thing in an anime that I like so I will erase it or change it into something that it is not in a god honouring way, and I will gaslight the fans of this thing because it made me uncomfy"

Also if you still watch or read Kuro, I'm sorry girl but you dont get to throw stone in the glass house, you are a freak just like the 'freak shippers' that you condemn. Its fine to enjoy 'impure' media

You cannot claim moral high ground while still endorsing the series and participating in the fandom. Just sit your ass and calm down...

[sableaire]

hello! this might be a little odd to ask since I don't think you've ever talked about this publicly, but I really value your opinion and think you are super well-read so I wondered what your thoughts were on this!!! My gf recently got me into kuroshitsuji, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on sebaciel, as a psychological concept? (I really liked your ks analysis!!! also I don't want you to think I'm asking for an actual analysis or anything I was just curious!!!)

Oh dear, I haven’t read Kuroshitsuji in years. I think I stopped some point near the end of the boarding school arc. Thank you for your kind words, by the way - true or not, I’m glad that is the impression I give off, ahaha.

Just on a surface level, I think the Kuroshitsuji animes were the ones that really leaned into the fanservice. There may have been some scenes in the manga that are evading my memory, but there’s no denying that the anime hinted at it far more heavily. As such, I feel that fans who only watched the anime - or watched the anime first - are more likely to end up shipping SebaCiel. However, I pretty much reject the first two anime and haven’t seen the Book of Circus, so my answer will have to focus on the manga.

Regardless, I know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, fans and non-fans alike, so my response is below the cut: 

My thoughts on the concept of SebaCiel, hm… I can see where people might be getting it, I think, but I don’t necessarily understand it. When I read the manga when I was a teenager, I didn’t realize that people shipped the two characters romantically/sexually. It just didn’t occur to me. 

So personally, when I read Kuroshitsuji, I saw no romantic or sexual chemistry there (and this isn’t even mentioning the fact that Ciel Phantomhive as written is a literal child, aha;;). What I saw in Kuroshitsuji and what appealed to me as a reader was a fascinating power dynamic, wrapped up in a weird business arrangement, and I think there-in lies the issue.

Perhaps it’s just because I’m aroace, but I personally feel that a lot of readers fail to acknowledge that there can be an emotional/mental intimacy in a relationship without romance. Similarly, there is a failure to acknowledge that there can be a power dynamic or obsession without sexual undertones.

From my limited knowledge of the SebaCiel fandom, it seems to me that the ship is built more upon sexual content rather than romantic fluff, which plays into my point. I believe that a lot of people end up shipping SebaCiel because of the underlying power dynamic between the two throughout the entirety of the manga, which many readers automatically associate with sexual themes.

I cannot speak for the intention of the author as to whether Kuroshitsuji is meant to encourage shipping Sebastian and Ciel or not. I do believe she started as a BL author, which could mean that any homoerotic undertones (should they be present; I don’t personally remember any, it’s been a while) are intentional. It could also just mean that she’s so used to drawing them that she doesn’t know how to draw pretty scenes without them, ahaha.

However, from a storytelling perspective myself, I don’t see any grounds for a romantic or sexual relationship between the two. Ciel is wholly focused on his revenge, fully intending to die - a little too busy for romance, and he holds his responsibilities as a noble to a certain esteem, which means that were he not to die, he would probably fully intend to marry his fiancee Elizabeth, without affair.

As for the demon himself, my interpretation at the time of reading - which, again, it’s been years - was that what Sebastian got out of this relationship was Ciel’s own corruption of self. Yeah, he likes the corruption of an innocent soul or whatnot, but what he got out of their weird pact was a front-row seat to Ciel’s self-destructive journey. He is basically ensuring that his favorite cake is baking properly, and his whole interest in Ciel is because Ciel himself is the one corrupting his own soul, without Sebastian’s direct involvement or encouragement.

Since that’s Sebastian’s role in all this, I don’t see it as a strong possibility that he would, I don’t know, seducing Ciel for laughs as a viable option, and if he attempted, I imagine Ciel would firmly shut it down, and if Ciel expresses no interest, Sebastian wouldn’t waste the effort on trying.

Further, I cannot actually imagine Sebastian actually harboring any affection for Ciel. He is a demon, fundamentally different from a human. What he is there for is the promise of one of the best soul meals of his life - he cares for Ciel to the extent I might care for a Michelin star Asian-style Strawberry Shortcake: I’m going to watch the chef, sit in front of the oven and stare at it while it is cooking, make sure it’s decorated to my liking, and I am going to kill anyone who tries to prevent me from eating the whole thing after I waited so long. Heck, I’ll probably kill anyone who even smears the icing. 

However, even without a sexual or romantic component, the two characters do still undeniably have both a power dynamic and a codependence. They both are incredibly prideful, and they are both bonded together despite their personal animosity for a perceived mutually beneficial outcome. Ciel holds power of Sebastian in all the public ways, as the Lord to demon’s Butler, but Ciel is also helplessly reliant on Sebastian when it comes to all the… supernatural stuff… and also not-so-supernatural stuff…

And personally, I love that. I love the stories where one character has all the cards and the other has to swallow their pride to get what they want, and I love stories about one-up-manship, and I love stories about people being forced to rely on one another. However, those dynamics do not have to be sexual, and they do not have to be romantic. Also, possessive behavior does not have to mean romantic/sexual obsession, especially when one character is technically a tool (a means to an end) and the other is literally a food source. I am pretty darn possessive of my laptop computer, and I would be pretty damn possessive over my Michelin-star strawberry shortcake. 

I didn’t actually intend on this being such an effective analogy, but now I am super protective and territorial about this imaginary strawberry shortcake because by god, it has been years since I had a good one.

Still, my theory is that to a lot of people, when presented with a power dynamic in fiction, many readers immediately see a sexual appeal to it in a Dom/sub-esque fashion, and when presented with seeming emotional intimacy, they immediately see romantic potential. And though the author/artist may throw in fanservice, that’s just that - service. It doesn’t discourage the shippers, for sure, but it’s not necessarily support for it either.

Basically, due to modern culture, committed and or intimate and or passionate and or intense relationships in fiction are often perceived to be romantic and or sexual in nature when they do not have to be. Platonic relationships are underrated. Non-sexual hatred and obsession is underrated. 

It could also just be that people are interpreting a business-arrangement-turned-emotionally-invested-relationship narrative as a platonic-relationship-turned-romantic one. I know a lot of people who think of platonic relationships as equivalent to mere acquaintanceship, and there-in might lie the issue. They may fail to perceive Ciel and Sebastian’s escalating emotional involvement (if there was any, I can’t remember) as a step up from a professional relationship. They may instead perceive it as a step up from a platonic one.

Also, Kuroshitsuji is one of those mangas a lot of people discover while young, so that may factor into the enthusiastic fandom and the eagerness for romance, considering most tween/young teen books angling for girls are romantic in nature and that is how many girls are used to relating to their fiction.

Sorry if this wasn’t the kind of answer you meant, and again, it has been years since I properly read the manga. I heard the two-Ciel theory’s been proven true? Fascinating.

[sephirthoughts]

it’s actually way fucking weirder to read that as a father son relationship like. what dad is waiting for their son to slip up for a split second so he can rip out his soul and eat it? the demon is amoral, inhuman, and inherently predatory. if that’s your take on fathers, i’d suggest a LOT of therapy. the cat/mouse dynamic is what makes the relationship exciting and have tension and sexual tension is deeply implied all the time. also sex and danger are intricately linked in human psychology. oh, for antis who may not know: tension is what we used to call a “plot”, but y’all now call “toxic” and “problematic”

Aight because there's a new kuro anime I have to say this and I'll only say this once. I dont get the people who vehemently deny the existence of sebaciel elements in kuro.

Look its valid if you are not into certain ship but screaming 24/7 that sebaciel aspects in this series is not real, and hating on the shipper all the time, insisting the shipper 'doesn't get it' and 'this is not what Yana wanted' and claimed the fandom hates sebaciel shipper (acting like fandom colonist) make no sense...

I saw someone said "I dont really have anything against /those shippers/ bc how can i blame them for liking (ok i kinda blame them) something that's there poisoning the entire manga, but im tired of thinking about that disturbing visual baiting"

Sebaciel is not poisoning Kuroshitsuji, sebaciel bait and the development of ciel relationship with sebastian is the whole thing

I personally always been pretty neutral about sebaciel, its just the thing that happen naturally in the series ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people went as far as insisting that Sebastian is Ciel father figure and all of the romantic bait between them are totally platonic father and son moments. I'm sorry but this is such a cope

"I don't like this thing in an anime that I like so I will erase it or change it into something that it is not in a god honouring way, and I will gaslight the fans of this thing because it made me uncomfy"

Also if you still watch or read Kuro, I'm sorry girl but you dont get to throw stone in the glass house, you are a freak just like the 'freak shippers' that you condemn. Its fine to enjoy 'impure' media

You cannot claim moral high ground while still endorsing the series and participating in the fandom. Just sit your ass and calm down...