#saera targayen

[moonlitgleek]

joannalannister

replied to your post

“Now that F&B is out, it's officially canon that Aerys I was more open...”

@moonlitgleek I still haven’t read this book but I don’t understand what grrm sees in all of jaehaerys's misogyny? What, in your opinion, does this add to Westeros?

It does not add anything. It’s just another instance where the main take can only be “Westeros is a very bad place for women”, which we full well know, tyvm GRRM. What makes me really angry with the writing of this book is that those instances of misogynistic overdoing are very much purposeless. There is no point to them. We get snapshots of misogyny and abuse that are just there for no reason and no narrative gain. It’s not like we needed to see Jaehaerys disregard Alysanne’s wishes and cite the mother who died because her own husband didn’t care about her wellbeing - what does this accomplish, other than show us that Jaehaerys is an asshole? This is a book that is invested in telling us what a great king Jaehaerys was and how much he loved Alysanne and listened to her.... which is then belied by his inexplicable actions in callously dismissing her desires. Jaehaerys’ love for Alysanne does not align with his blatant disregard for her physical and emotional health, neither does it have an explanation other than clear selfishness.

I’ve briefly considered if this might be taken as one of GRRM’s attempts to interrogate popular perceptions of someone by deconstructing their public image in the same way he did with characters like Stannis Baratheon or Tywin Lannister. But I don’t think that reasoning holds up because F&B clearly wants us to see Jaehaerys as sympathetic and likeable. With a few notable exceptions, Jaehaerys’ behavior is generally painted as either logical and political, or understandable in context. Saera’s story stands out to me because we get a lot of detailing about the cruel and terrible things she did to prime us to dislike her before we discover her sexual affairs that are presented as some sort of extension to Saera’s bad behavior. For the wise and highly respected Septon Barth (who the story went to great lengths to present as a credible and reasonable source of information) to then express horror at Saera’s behavior when confronted about her affairs and call her a mummer giving a performance only adds to the negativity the story attaches to Saera, to the point where people in fandom have adopted the narrative attitude that treats Jaehaerys as completely justified in punishing Saera, ignoring the fact that Jaehaerys was specifically punishing her for having sex and not for the myriad of bad things she had done. Septon Barton repeatedly asserts that Jaehaerys’ punishment was always meant to be temporary, or that he was totally going to listen to Alysanne when she advocated leniency and forgiveness, and it was only Saera’s subsequent behavior (she tried to steal a dragon soon after Alysanne pleaded with Jaehaerys to forgive her, and she escaped the motherhouse she was consigned to as a “temporary punishment” pushing an old sister down the stairs in the process) that curtailed that. Of course, Septon Barth’s assertion seems to ignore Jaehaerys’ disowning of Saera before her dragon-stealing stunt or that said temporary punishment (that we have no evidence to suggest was temporary beyond Barth’s words) included “silent prayer” and “harsh discipline” for Saera, or that Jaehaerys singled out Saera in his overt punishment from the very start compared to her companions. Having multiple trusted sources sell a version of the story that attempts to exonerate Jaehaerys while the in-universe narrator goes to great lengths to tell us what an awesome guy he was and heap praise on even his questionable decisions doesn’t lend itself to any sort of successful deconstruction of Jaehaerys’ image.

Now, I make no claims to knowing GRRM’s mind but to me, it feels like his depiction of Jaehaerys’ entire reign might have been a hamfisted attempt to introduce conflict to drive the narrative and falling back on his usual tropes of using misogyny and sexual violence as the go-to plot device of choice. Jaehaerys’ reign was largely peaceful and politically-focused, which makes for a relatively rigid read. To balance the famed peacefulness of his reign and the need for conflict, Martin turned to the personal lives of his characters which, unfortunately, meant a healthy helping of unpleasantness in the name of “historical accuracy”, I guess. But the misogyny in the entire book is largely senseless. Fire and Blood is awful in how it treats women and it’s mostly used as a set dressing that not only doubles down on extant problems but affirms them. I fail to see the narrative gain in many of GRRM’s authorial choices in F&B or the point of any of it. The best take I can find to Jaehaerys’ story is that it’s an attempt to show how being one of the best kings Westeros has seen doesn’t mean that Jaehaerys was not flawed, though I don’t think this remotely justifies the excessive misogyny because like, Ned Stark is flawed. He is a product of his society with patriarchal views and attitudes that can be found in his relationship with his wife, daughters and sister. But Jaehaerys is not flawed; he is just an asshole. And I don’t understand the distinct trend of acting like being a good political/king and being a good parent are mutually exclusive that pops up every now and then in Martin’s writing.

I'm getting dangerously close to rambling territory but the truth is that I don’t really know what to do with Jaehaerys’ story, or Fire and Blood in its entirety if I’m being honest. It feels like more of the same but without the kind of critique that can be found in the main novels. I know this might raise a debate about the subject of a misogynistic society vs a misogynistic narrative, but at this point justifying every unchallenged and unnecessary piece of problematic writing by chucking it up to a claim of “this is what this society is like” is not enough. It sounds so hollow when GRRM is perfectly capable of writing rousing challenges to Westerosi misogyny. I’d have been fine if the narrative treated Jaehaerys’ behavior as something to condemn. I might have been disappointed that my image of him was not accurate but I’d have lived with it. But it’s not really a problem of having him be misogynistic; it’s that the narrative doesn’t particularly care to admit it. The few instances where we get something akin to a challenge to his behavior (e.g, Alysanne calling out his responsibility for Daella’s death) gets immediately brushed aside by Gyldayn and then undermined by the narrative itself. Is that a sign of Gyldayn’s own misogyny and how men excuse and sympathize with other men as they victimize women? Sure. But Gyldayn is like that because Martin chose to write him that way. And Gyldayn does not account for all of the narrative’s recurring sins, like the incessant normalization of child brides or the blatant dismissal of known medical facts, both of which are very present in Jaehaerys’ narrative.

[moonlitgleek]

Now that F&B is out, it's officially canon that Aerys I was more open to having a woman succeed him (he named Aelora his heir) than Jaehaerys ever was. I am not sure how to feel about this.

Well, I am angry and disappointed. I loved Jaehaerys Targaryen. I defended him. I thought he was one of the better men in the series. Then Fire and Blood came out and I found myself utterly disgusted by his behavior towards the women in his life. All of them, including Queen Alysanne herself.

Jaehaerys’ attitude towards his daughters almost made me put that book down forever. I wish his misogynistic behavior only extended to him not even considering Princess Rhaenys as a potential heir; alas it does not. Jaehaerys’ treatment of his daughters is abysmal and swings between extreme dismissiveness to extreme harshness. He is incredibly condescending and snide in how he talks about Daella as if she is some burden he was eagerly trying to parcel off to someone, anyone else. He dismisses Viserra when she protests her betrothal to a man old enough to be her father with the claim that matters of marriage was the queen’s domain, as if he didn’t personally mandate Daella’s marriage within the year when she approached 16. He treats Saera with disproportionate harshness that not only took me aback, but also made me seethe because apparently, Jaehaerys is more than willing to forgive the man who tried to have him and his wife separated by any means necessary, plotted to pack him off to the Citadel, seat his niece on the throne instead and humiliated his mother and contributed to her death for the want of a son, but he draws the line at forgiving his daughter for having sex. Nope, can’t have that. And that’s the thing he punishes Saera for. Everything she pulled previously doesn’t really register until he finds out she is sleeping around. He disowns Saera, calls her a whore, makes sure to toy with and kill her lover in her sight, then packs her off to a motherhouse where she is shamed, shaved and beaten. How very Tywin Lannister of him.

Even Queen Alysanne isn’t spared. I haven’t forgotten that Jaehaerys deliberately ignored her wish not to have more children and used the mother they both saw die in terrible agony as an excuse. I haven’t forgotten how callous and selfish it was for him to pull that crap when Alysanne’s last two pregnancies took a toll on her both physically and emotionally since she lost both Gaemon and Valerion which she took very hard. How cruel and inconsiderate can he be, and for what reason? It’s not like he lacked for children or dynastic heirs. He was simply pulling a Rogar Baratheon because…. I guess he felt like it? I also haven’t forgotten his cruel words to Alysanne regarding Saera, or his responsibility for Daella’s death.

Add to that the needless and inexplicable passing of Rhaenys that came naturally to him, his resistant attitude to banning the first night, the way he blamed Rhaena for Elissa Farman’s theft, and the fact that he took issue with Myles Smallwood’s words but not his point with respect to Rhaena and Franklyn Farman. Jaehaerys Targaryen may have benefited Westeros greatly as king and he may have been infinitely better than his contemporaries in places, but it’s clear that he had MARJOR problems when it comes to his treatment of women.

And I don’t know how to reconcile that with the picture TWOIAF painted of him or with how the narrative wants us to see Jaehaerys as a good man, whether through the writings of Yandel or Gyldayn. Granted, both Yandel and Gyldayn are biased sources and their spin on history is colored by their own misogyny, but Jaehaerys is clearly a character that we’re supposed to root for so having him draw parallels to men like Tywin Lannister and Rogar Baratheon is not a good look. I am very, very disappointed. And sad, so very sad.

(Side note RE Aerys and Aelora: I’m still waiting on any sort of explanation for that bit of information. So far, it’s just there as an offhand mention, which is bizarre within the context of the established custom of the Iron Throne. The early royal succession is a right mess and the narrative can’t seem to make up its mind on an accepted proper order of succession for the Targaryens early on, butit had been thoroughly established by Aerys’ reignthat the Targaryens put male heirs ahead of females so I’d really like to know why Aerys named Aelora his heir instead of Maekar, especially since the mishap that killed her brother-husband Aelor reportedly left her mad with grief. And if that was simply a sign of Aerys’ own preference for regular Andal-First Men succession customs, 1) why did Aerys name Maekar as his heir on Aelora’s death instead of her younger sister Daenora?, 2)how does Aerys’ decision fit the context of “the iron precedent” the Great Council of 101 which is the principle that gave Aerys his throne in the first place?, and 3) how does that work with the persistent Blackfyre threat and the fact that acknowledging that a woman could sit the Iron Throne gives them a rather strong claim through Princess Daena? I have so many questions about that).