#s4 characters wouldn't be terribly interesting though

[imunbreakabledude]

last reblog... that poll blog reminds me of my scientific ranking of The Boys characters by how good they are at eating pussy. ... been so long i theoretically could update it with s4 and gen v characters

[arthurtaylorlester]

malevolent season 4 was... something, that's for sure

i want to preface this by saying i LOVE malevolent as a show and this is no means an attack on the creator or anything like that, i don't think i'll ever stop listening halfway, no matter how i feel about it. i'm not saying season 4 is all bad either.

it is a deviation for malevolent, though i found it VERY well written up until part 31 (and part 31 is my favourite malevolent episode ever)

s4 started off really strong for me, part 29 set the tone really well, much lighter after s3's emotional lows. the butcher was an interesting enough new villain to put yarson aside for now. part 30 had some charming moments, but the real star of the early season was part 31, a truly incredibly written and directed look into arthur's psychology. it truly gave us everything, from lore to highly comedic moments (to me)(no because why was arthur dreaming of waking up next to a shirtless man who tried to kill him)

parts 32 through 34 i'm not sure about, but i can write them off as awkward mid season points. part 34 was an interesting shift in perspective, but here is where my doubt's about the season's villains started rising

but the oscar & scratch arcs.... guys i'm gonna be honest, i might be oscar's #1 hater

scratch and oscar in this season were functionally useless filler. it's not unusual for arthur and john get sidetracked during their missions, but it usually ends up leading them right where they need to be by the season finale. this felt like a parenthesis that killed any tension created by the butcher.

this season had, quite unnecessarily, 3 antagonists. now this wouldn't be a terrible idea, had they been established before. but no. for some reason it was chosen to leave the only villain we could genuinely be afraid of alone, in favour of introducing not one but two antagonists yet to be established. neither because of this have the adequate fear factor (the butcher is better about this) and both get the most abysmal ends i could've imagines. what do you mean scratch is just gone like that after causing some emotional conflict with his deal. what do you mean the butcher was KOed by the fucking priest with a bedpan? what? that's it? you expect me to be scared or even care about the butcher now?

speaking of the priest. i want to like oscar i really do but. he's a terribly written character. we get to know him while arthur is teaching john intimidation tactics so out of gate our initial impression of him is as someone meek. and then in part 36 after "sorting out" the butcher, oscar just dumps out his trauma point blank to someone he's spoken to a handful of times in the past 3? 4? days.

malevolent in general has a bit of an exposition problem, but it usually works out if it's john expositing because. that's literally all he can do. but when a character with more agency do it, it makes them flat. oscar didn't have to tell us all that, he didn't have a reason. arthur confessing to 7 murders isn't a prompt to make himself vulnerable like that. i did not start caring for him, just because he had a tragic backstory. that's... not how you get someone to care about a character. oscar could be defined as a static character, and while it's not too unusual for a static character to be the focal point of an arc, i don't think it works the way most authors think it does.

also the worms in the farm only happened because of him messing with the stove so like. that's not helping his case.

the completely unnecessary farm arc concluded, we return oscar to the hospital, with arthur caving very quickly to john's demands if he truly cared about oscar so much. and so, a single episode before the finale, we get properly acquainted our main ally for the showdown. a choice definitely, but i feel like this one worked out pretty well considering noel had time to simmer before we got know of his past + he had interesting conflict with john and arthur.

and then there's the big one, the thing that appalls me entirely. leaving larson and yellow, the main villains of the finale COMPLETELY alone until the very end. why? why would you choose to not use them earlier? we spent so much time away from larson, so we weren't really as scared of him as we were at the end of part 28 (i literally was listening to the last 15 minutes of this ep on my toes because i thought he might do something) and we had had no CHANCE to even fear yellow, since we knew nothing of his power?

and what, the butcher is on our side now because noel granted his release? just like that? i know he's a contract killer but arthur insulted him to his face, he can believe they understand each other but did he feel no anger?

the finale did well, considering the context it was given to work with, though i did not understand the point of the memory thing... that didn't go anywhere? because not arthur nor noel actually lost anything. we don't know what the box was for, we only know some guy wrote "the birth of my son" on slip of paper and put it in. arthur assumed it was a memory, when it just as well could've been a literal offering, arthur assumed it would involve losing said memory, and they assumed it was related. initially i thought it would only go through if the ritual took place, which, it didn't. but reading back here is no further clarification on it. hold your angst horses, blindfaith enjoyers

i feel like john physically manifesting, if now an established power of his, was very cheap. unless it was a one-off, or some sort of power up, it just literally took away the main premise of the show. an all-powerful god rendered powerless by being stuck in some guy's mind and being forced to confront the troubles of someone infinitesimal to him. if you let him astral project and save people, then what's the point?

but i do actually think it was a one-off, so we'll see how it goes

simply put, john saving arthur when he jumped in s3 had more impact than this because he did it with a single, human, hand. no magic.

it was pleasant to have kayne and his expected chaos back, jarring as always. john's deal was exactly what we all thought it was going to be, maybe more about himself than arthur, but i don't think anyone can fault him for that.

one things though, and this questions may just be me not remembering, is arthur supposed to know that yellow is a separate entity from john when they realise larson has him in his head? because i remember arthur just assuming that 'yellow' just had all of his memories returned in part 23, and therefore not knowing that he's a separate guy from john.

just in general, i feel like s4 had a LOT of good ideas that weren't given enough room to breathe and therefore weren't written very well that really weighed down my enjoyment of the season. that's not to say there weren't things i liked. the emotional moments hit just as hard, like reconciling with daniel, the comedy was on point (genuinely this season was so funny) and even the most out of pocket thing arthur has ever said, calling john a child, no matter how much discourse it caused, was actually sort of in character for him? i mean arthur is an asshole so like i get why his immediate reaction to his severely emotionally unintelligent friend being possessive is babying him. they're awful people. they deserve each other. it made somewhat sense in retrospect.

all this to say, while i didn't hate s4, i think it had a lot of writing issues, especially when comparing it to the other 3, and it could've been done WAYY better but hey we all have our moments.

i await anxiously intermezzo's public release and the rest of season 5 👀

[moistvonlipwig]

Cordelia Chase + 2, 8, 10

yay :D

2. How would I have chosen to change their story from canon?

I think the most important thing for me is that we needed to be let in on the truth that she was being possessed in Angel S4 far, far earlier -- by the end of "Apocalypse, Nowish" at the latest -- and we needed to actually hear from her while she was being possessed. Robbing Cordelia, a character whose entire thing is speaking her mind, of her voice for an entire season is so profoundly unjust and misogynistic, and I really do think that giving us a glimpse into her mind and her reactions to what Jasmine is doing with her body would have vastly improved S4 no matter what else went down in that season. However, if I have free reign to change even more of her story, then I think it would've been really interesting for Cordelia to be the one controlling the Beast in an effort to stop Jasmine's plans from coming to fruition. I have a whole rambling write-up here of how that would work on a basic level.

To tell the truth, though -- and I'm aware this puts me in the minority when it comes to Cordelia fans -- I wouldn't actually axe the possession storyline or Cordelia's eventual death & ascension entirely. I'm actually a big defender of the idea that Cordelia's arc should end with her death. I just think the execution of the possession/mystical pregnancy storyline was really poor (and was made even worse by both Joss's treatment of Charisma behind-the-scenes, and by Fred suffering a speedrun of the same fate in one of Angel's most hideously misogynistic episodes ever a season later).

I would also give her way more scenes with Gunn. Although, that's more of an issue with Gunn's character arc and the way it stopped existing in Seasons 3 & 4. And I would have liked to see her appear on Buffy in Season 6 -- I actually don't dislike Riley (even if I think his arc ended up going to several terrible places), but I think "As You Were" (or an episode like it) would be infinitely more interesting if it were Cordelia coming back to town instead. Cordelia started as Buffy's shadow self, the popular mean girl part of herself she had to leave behind in Los Angeles, and it would've been interesting to have Cordelia show up at Buffy's lowest point, now serving as a reflection of the kind of person Buffy wishes she could be. I think Cordelia got good closure with Xander in "The Prom," but she never quite got closure with Buffy, and I think an episode like this could've been a great sequel to "Homecoming."

8. What is a headcanon I have about this character?

Hm! Well, I am an ace Cordy truther, so there's that. I also have a headcanon that in her will she left instructions for her will's executor (probably Lilah) to sue Angel on her behalf for his mishandling of her company Angel Investigations. He gave up the money without a fight, and shortly thereafter, Stanford student Connor Reilly discovered he'd been selected for a scholarship he'd never heard of.

10. Did I like them immediately or did it take a while before I warmed up to their character? Alternatively, did I dislike them immediately or did they lose my trust as their story progressed?

Well, after watching the first episode of Buffy, my two favorite characters were Cordelia and Willow, in that order, sooo, yeah, I liked her pretty immediately! I've always been drawn to mean girl/popular girl/hyperfeminine 'bitch' type characters. So it's no surprise that she clicked with me right off the bat. But I would say I definitely fell deeper in love with her character through watching Angel. In the early seasons of Buffy I was just kind of like, oh she's fun. :) But by the end of Angel she was unequivocally my favorite character in the Buffyverse and one of my favorite characters ever. (I had kind of the opposite trajectory with Willow, funnily enough, where I'm not at all a fan anymore, largely due to the way her arc falls flat on its face partway through S6 and never recovers.) Also, I was spoiled for Angel S4 (thank our lord and savior Cordelia herself), so I knew Cordelia was possessed by Jasmine the whole time, so there was never a part of her arc where I disliked her.

[withacapitalp]

Nancy for the character question ask!

favorite thing about them

BADDIE NANCY!!!!! She shoots at a demogorgon and she fights all the time for everything. I also love that Nancy cares about Mike!!! Give us more of their sibling relationship in s5 PLEASE

least favorite thing about them

Ough I think that Nancy's one track mind can really be her downfall

favorite line

“Girls this age are dumb. But give ‘em a few years, and they’ll wise up. You’re gonna drive them nuts.”

Lmao Nancy doesn't have a ton of lines that stand out to me? But her and Dustin at the snowball and her trying to help him feel better? one of the sweetest scenes in the show

brOTP

Barb and Nancy!!! Eddie and Nancy!!! give her a best friend!!!! I also really like Nancy and Robin as buds!!! Them as friends is so greatttttt

OTP

Stoncy but in general I think that Nancy doesn't need to be in a romantic relationship. Nancy needs to learn how to take care of herself in a way that isn't detrimental to everyone around her, and she needs to acknowledge her pain and work through it instead of letting it run her. Nancy and Therapy that's my OTP LMAO

nOTP

Ronance in most instances. I think it can be done, but it's rare that I actually like it

random headcanon

Nancy met Barb in ballet (they both have ballet related things in their house) Barb was terrible at it, and Nancy was really good, but they both tended to hide in the back and talk about books they were reading instead of paying attention.

unpopular opinion

Nancy's selfish. Yep I said it. Nancy is focused on what Nancy wants and what Nancy needs to do to prove herself/feel better (even though she never really feels better because she never lets herself hurt. She just wants to fix it without feeling it). There is so many moments where I'm just like girl what are you doing!!!! Nancy is so crazy focused on getting justice for Barb that she ignores NDAs she signed? Like it is pure plot convenience that she and Jonathan weren't arrested/shot for the shit they did in s2. No way on earth that wouldn't have serious ramifications. She's so angry at being put down by the men at the paper (rightfully!) that she gets both her and Jonathan fired (not rightfully!) and then doesn't care when he is upset. She does not get that he can't lose his job because his family literally relies on his income. Nancy stays with Steve when she wants to be with Jonathan because she doesn't want to be alone, and then lets him blame himself for their relationship failing? She should have been honest that she didn't want him.

I don't mind Nancy being selfish! I honestly think it's a really good thing because it is at her core. I think that she can get to self-focused from selfish as she grows, and we see that as s4 evolves, but like I hate that no one is allowed to say anything that might be seen as critical of Nancy because no many people hate her. I love Nancy!! she's super interesting to me! But Nancy is selfish, which makes sense, and makes her stay interesting to me

song i associate with them

Way Down We Go by Kaleo and Duet from the Omori OST

favorite picture of them

NANCY WHEELER FUCKING BADASS SHE IS SO IM SO OH MY GOD THE BISEXUAL FURY SHES A GODDESS SHES SO COOL

[a-heaven]

Hey! Sorry to bother you but I was wondering: do you have any headcannons about how the main characters (ie, Ryo, Ren, Shenhua, Joy, maybe even Guizhang and Xiuying) would interact with one another? I've been thinking about it pretty consistently recently, especially when it comes to what direction Shenmue 4 might take. I'm really hopeful that when(/if) we get the next Shenmue, the story will advance a lot more and I'm really hoping that means we'll get the return of more characters! Anyways, I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have time :))

oooooo where do I begin >_<

ryo & shenhua: I think this is the most perfect and stable relationship in the entirety of shenmue. No ass whooping, no bickering, just wholesomeness ^_^. So this is making me think that their relationship would only get better in s4 and even more exciting cause I believe the truth about shenhua's "superpowers" (and possibly ryo's) would be revealed in s4 so I'm imagining all the interesting interactions that would happen between them🥶🥶🥶

ryo & ren: shipping aside, their relationship is pretty unstable imo and they usually don't have any deep conversations aside from discussing how they will get revenge/treasure , so I'm not sure how they would interact in s4, but I'm sure they'd still be somewhat hostile towards each other at the beginning (though less hostile because I think that they'd start to realize they had a lot of strong bro moments together, especially when ren saved ryo from getting killed by Lan di), ren would continue being protective of ryo anyways because that's something he's shown in the previous games. wether or not they'd become besties near the end of the game is something that I cannot tell because I found them to be unnecessarily mean to each other in 3 :((((((( but I HOPE that ren wouldn't betray ryo like many people are saying </3 (even though it makes perfect sense)

ryo & xiuying: basically the same treatment as in s2, because I think that for ryo to change his attitude towards xiuying he needs to understand that she's right abt revenge being a terrible idea, which is not the case because in s3 it's shown that he's still determined to get it 🙄🙄🙄🙄, she'd probably give up on convincing him and decide to train him to fight Lan di instead

ryo & guizhang: simply put, I headcanon that their relationship would be really cute✨✨. I personally feel like gui treats ryo like his lil bro, so I think he'd do brotherly stuff like giving him advice, teaching him moves, protecting him, etc. since guizhang is the oldest and strongest (?, physically at least), I expect the gang (ryo, shenhua, ren) to consider him their leader. as for wether or not he'd make a comeback, I don't see why he wouldn't??? I think a lot of in game time has passed so his leg should be fine....and considering the fact that he travels a lot between China and Japan, he might want to check up on what ryo has been doing.

ren & guizhang: i already headcanon that these two know each other, as they are both friends with joy and even if they haven't met, ren is pretty notorious in HK...same thing goes for gui and I know for a fact that both of them would be SHOCKED when they find out that ryo was/is involved with either of them because of their dangerous criminal activity. as I said before, the gang (mostly shenhua and ryo) might treat guizhang as their leader but since ren would also want to be the leader, this might make him clash with guizhang a lot, and then compete with him for the title, starting some hilarious drama.

ren & shenhua: shenhua would probably try to get to know ren, but ren would shut her off just like he does with ryo :(((. i dont think they'd argue a lot cause shenhua is very peaceful so she really isn't the type of to argue with anyone but she might just avoid interacting with him.... OR make him open up using her powers (just like how she did with that thug in the village), because she'd realize that he's not inherently a bad person (at least I think so) so she would try to "fix him"???? Idk lol. wish they interacted more in 3 :(((((

I think these are all the character interactions I could think of, feel free to add/ask anything

[jeniffercheck]

Do you credit one particular succ writer with shiv’s characterization or do you feel like it’s a group effort. Because people on Twitter were saying there weren’t enough women in the room etc

I wish I knew more about the writers room to be able to say; I think ultimately I will always give the bulk of that credit to Jesse and Sarah, because it was Jesse's job to lead the writers with direction and it was Sarah's acting that always added in that extra nuance (our #1 shivpert<333), and then after that a group effort, but again, I wasn't in the writers room so I don't really know who pitched what beyond being able to guess based off of the lead writer from each episode.

That being said, I think in the case of Shiv Roy, and I wouldn't say this about most female characters if ANY, but because Shiv is soooo ingrained in a world catered to boys, because she's the girl daughter out of 4 children, because she was raised largely only by her father, I think she holds a lot of traditionally masculine traits, in a way that it is interesting for her to be informed by a male viewpoint within the writing process.

THAT being said, there's no reason that women cannot write a female character who is informed by traditional masculinity, and I would venture to say they might be able to do it better, especially when we want to add in that nuance of a masculine woman still being a woman first and foremost.

If you wanted to know, these are the stats for how many women were credited as the Lead Writer for an episode in each season:

S1 - 4/10

S2 - 3/10

S3 - 3/9

S4 - 3/10

The credited writing staff for the whole show though, shows 17 writers, 8 of which are visibly women. That's not a terrible number honestly!! I'm always an advocate for more women in the writing room, but I guess everyone can make their own opinions off of these numbers!!

[strangertheories]

Will you still watch stranger things if byeler isn't canon?

First of all, thanks for the ask anon. To answer your question, yes I will still watch Stranger Things if Byler/byeler isn't canon (I'm going to be referring to the ship as Byler as that's how I spell it). I love the show a lot and whilst ships are a part of it, mainly I just love the characters, the horror and mystery elements, and the 80s vibes. Even if S4 is somehow terrible which I really don't think it will be, I will keep watching. I'm very obsessed with Stranger Things and whilst it may not be perfect, I think I'll always like it.

However I'd like to elaborate on my thoughts on Byler. I've said this before, but if Byler isn't canon I will be disappointed but not surprised. It would make sense for the characters of Mike and Will and be a really good way to explore and develop them and their relationship. The representation of different queer experiences would also be very interesting to watch. In my opinion, Byler is a natural continuation of the source material and it would be great to see on screen.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't end up in a romantic relationship. It would be a missed opportunity, but not impossible. And I still think if they don't get together the show can still be amazing, but it would be such a great direction for the show. I also think the show has hinted at their relationship. I really hope the writers can understand this, but if the plot develops in another way, I won't be shocked by this. As I said, disappointed but not surprised.

Please stay hopeful for Byler though! As I said, it would make sense if they get together and the show really seems to be pointing towards it. I'm not saying this to stop people from being hopeful, you absolutely can be. And even if it isn't canon, there's some incredible fan content out there. Please don't be pessimistic because of me!

The one thing that would surprise and disappoint me is if Will is straight. As I've said before, the character means so much to me and really helped me feel less alone during some tough times. If they go down the path that he is just immature and needed to grow up and start liking the same sex, it will be a massive blow to me. I would be shocked by that though. Whilst there are lots of big hints towards Byler, the show practically screams at you that Will is gay from the first episode he is in and this is brought up over and over throughout the series. What else were we meant to take from 'it's not my fault you don't like girls'? And whilst I would love for him to date Mike, I'd be devastated if they tried to act like he didn't like guys at all.

Hope this answer helped in some way (: and as I said, please stay hopeful for Byler if you want to

[kurokoros]

Ughh now with the release of the new ST profile pics the Eddie is Kas theorists are at it again. I just want Eddie to stay dead lol, like fr if he were a vampire (which already sounds ridiculous) what can the gang do other than to kill him again? Plus if the DnD theory is correct and Kas is the one killing Vecna that's like so fucking bad because if anyone deserves to kill Vecna it's El or Will fr, why does Eddie get this huge plot thing as a side character who didn't do shit the entire season 4.

Do you believe in the theory? I mean it's kinda suspicious how Stranger Things plays into it, they have to know about it. I just really hope he stays dead

I'll be completely frank and say I hope the Eddie/Kas theory doesn't happen purely because the idea of an outright vampire being in ST just... doesn't seem right. The Duffers would have to do a ton of legwork in the world building department to get it right, and they haven't been impressing me much on that front.

Stranger Things is a science fiction show, not a supernatural fantasy, though the series does blur the line at times. The core difference between fantasy and sci-fi is that sci-fi (generally) needs an explanation for the things that happen, while fantasy can get away with a lot more logistical things. ST has been getting really sloppy in the logistics department, particularly in S4. The entire Henry/One/Vecna backstory was sloppy and didn't make a ton of sense. If Eddie becomes a vampire, 1) the Duffers are going to have to make this vampirism fit into their already established universe--if it's just Eddie with fangs™ and dark makeup it's not really going to fit with the established world, 2) they're going to have to differentiate this vampirism from other established vampires in media because, again, it has to fit with the world building, and 3) the Duffers will have to come up with a solid explanation for how and why it happened, and I really don't think they can. Why would Vecna need a human/vampire foot soldier when he has far stronger monsters at his disposal? Eddie can't be used as a spy like Will because Eddie is a person of interest in a serial murder investigation and presumed dead by the main cast.

What's the point of killing Eddie just to bring him back? It's not like El, who was actually a main character in S1. Or Hopper, who's been a main character all four seasons. Eddie was barely in the entire middle section of S4, and the only character he was particularly close with was Dustin (and apparently Mike). Like, sorry St.ddie fans, but they didn't actually have that much of a connection that I think Steve would be devastated beyond survivor's guilt, and even then he'd probably feel way more guilty about Max being hurt. The majority of the main cast either didn't know him personally--that we were shown--prior to the season (Steve, Nancy, Erica, Max, Robin), presumably didn't know him at all (Jonathan, Will, El, Joyce, Hopper), or did know him (Dustin, Mike, Lucas) but had no interactions with him all season (Mike) or were barely concerned with his plot at all (Lucas).

In short, bringing Eddie back would be pandering for the fans. There's no reason to do it. Realistically, the Duffers wouldn't even pull it off well. The bestie and I have talked about how throwing known supernatural creatures into ST canon is just not a vibe unless it's a completely distinct creature and "vampire" is just the best analogy the kids come up with. I also think Eddie/Kas killing Vecna would be... terrible writing when there are other characters who have suffered more because of Vecna. If anything, Will being Kas would make more sense narratively if they hadn't already done a possession plotline with him.

Granted, I'm also of the opinion that Eddie isn't a good character. Nothing against Joseph Quinn or anything, but Eddie is a character that didn't need to exist. Need a loner-freak character? Jonathan is right there. Need an older male figure for Dustin to hang out with? Steve is right there. Need someone to hotwire an RV? In S3 it was established that Jonathan was decent with cars and also his own car is a piece of junk so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd had to hot-wire it before. Need a kick off point to get everyone gathered together after a sudden murder suspected to be other-worldly/occult? Will Byers was bullied for "coming back from the dead". It wouldn't take much to setup the idea that the town thinks Will was involved with the murders when there's already rumors about his disappearance and supposed death.

Eddie did not need to exist in S4. He doesn't need to come back for S5. And if he does it's only going to be done to please the fans, not for the sake of a compelling narrative.

[spookyclooky]

First of all, I have NO idea how you found my post unless you were combing through the anti-stancy tag, looking for a fight, but hello, thank you for giving a read to my hard work.

But on to what you said,

To be fair, she never says "I don't want kids" word for word. I'll give you that, but she says that having 6, like Steve wants, sounds terrible! She literally says that it sounds like a total nightmare, as the gif says in my initial post. Like, yes, I made the gif myself but that was because tumblr wouldn't let me post more than one video and I thought the one about her parents was more important. But I took the quote directly from the show, and I'm not only gonna post the part that I initially took the gif from, I edited together 2 parts of the scene in the RV that scream "I don't want kids" to me, just for you. I uploaded it to youtube cause I couldn't post it on here so here's that.

But putting that scene aside, you said Steve was thinking clearer than he ever had been when he said he wasn't in love with Nancy, and I agree with you. I think a small part of him was in love with Nancy, BUT, Nancy doesn't love him. He also had moved on enough to confess feelings for Robin. Yes, they were unrequited, but he moved on from not only his high school self, but his high school sweetheart. The Duffers never addressed the correlation between the bathroom scene in s3 and the RV scene in s4, so we'll never truly know whether it's canon or not that he lied. At least, not until it's directly addressed Even if he did lie, how many people do you know that can lie with no hesitation, even if the drugs in his system were gone? We have no idea what was in that, there still could've been traces left over or some shit. Whatever it was, Steve was telling the truth, he'd grown too much by that point to lie over something that petty. Like, why would he confess having feelings for Robin just to take it back the second that Nancy became available again, like "Hey, baby, omg, I love you so much. Oh, Robin? Nah, I was just using her for a rebound until I could get back to you."???? The logic in something like that makes no sense. That's more of a hypothetical based on what you're saying his motives were, though, since Robin was initially put in the show as a love interest character for Steve until Maya suggested it to the Duffers that she be a lesbian and Joe agreed. Like, the logic? Make it make sense.

As far as the relationship between Steve and Nancy not working the first time goes, that's exactly my point. I have never met somebody that got back together with their ex and ended up happy. It's just not a good idea. That's like, rule #1 when it comes to dating?? Steve and Nancy's relationship was entirely too messy after what happened to Barb because Nancy was not only upset that her best friend died, she put some of the blame on Steve! I never said that Steve never made up for his mistakes, because he did. He did more than that, he rose above those mistakes and became a better person in the long run. I know that Steve had a huge redemption arc, he's my favorite character of the whole show, I've been watching his character arc since the beginning. My point was, and still is, that Nancy never gave herself that moment to grieve Barb, and even she still feels a sense of guilt over her death, considering Vecna even brought it up in s4 as her trauma. She put it out there that the lab was the cause with her journalism work, but she never took the time to really work through her grief, at least not in a healthy way. We never see her go to a counselor or anything like Max does for post-Billy. The most emotion she shows over it is crying in the bathroom in the Holland's home. Their past mistakes isn't the only reason I'm saying they shouldn't be together. They're entirely different people than they used to be, to a point where they're not anywhere near the same page for dreams of the future. Even when he was talking about his whole family vision and says that she's a part of it, he uses past tense. He says 'you were always there', which he never really elaborates on. In fact, he uses past tense for all of it, so who knows! Maybe his dream has changed, maybe he doesn't have a face for who could be in that dream with him. That's up for speculation, but it definitely comes into question. He never said that she was still a part of that dream, just that she was in it in the first place. Nancy's also not the type of person to throw away everything for a man, not even Jonathan.

When he's freaking out to Argyle about them going to different colleges, he mentions that she'd just throw away what she wants to be with him, but he doesn't know that for sure. He never talked to her about possibly going to different colleges, he just panicked in true Jonathan nature and spiraled into anxiety that he covered up with drugs.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying about it being the first time she's seeing the change in him, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's falling for him again. It could lead to them being closer, sure, but she loves Jonathan. She left Steve for Jonathan and was disappointed when he didn't come to see her from California for break. But since she doesn't have a healthy example of what her relationship goals should be (i.e, Karen Wheeler being unhappy enough to be like, seconds away from sleeping with a teenager instead of Ted, them always bickering/being exasperated with each other), she doesn't communicate any of that to him, not that Jonathan says anything to her either, but this post isn't directly about them. S1 + S2 Steve was the very beginning of his change into a better person, but Nancy breaking up with him truly sent him into that, and he transformed himself into the guy we all know and love now without Nancy. He took it upon himself to see that what he'd previously done was shit because the breakup with Nancy bonked him into changing. He became the protector of the kids, which is why he's doing all these dangerous things. Like, yes, that could cause Nancy to paint a better picture of him in her mind but that's not a direct pipeline to her having romantic feelings for him again.

Also, Steve himself says that he cares about her as a friend. He can still care about her safety without being in love with her. You've never cared about the well-being of a friend?? For the Sherlock speech, he just had spiders in his hair and probably didn't actually remember what Dustin said before. He tells her that she was always there for his dream. Past. Tense. But, he also thanks her for breaking up with him, because it was what spurred him into this change. You actually can get more romantic than this, and I personally would like to see it in this show, so.

The whole thing kinda gives off Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter vibes. Peggy had a whole other family without him and said that her life wouldn't have been possible if Steve hadn't sacrificed himself to save the rest of the platoon but the Russo Brothers sent him back in time to her after he moved on/grieved her death.

Long story short, Steve going back to Nancy would be shoving them both back into a hole that they left in their past, imo. They didn't work in the past because their views on the world/situations they were in was too different, and now, they're even more different than they were before.

Stancy is toxic.

considering I will never shut up about this, and I see a lot of people ganging up on each other over this, I've decided I'm going to publicly share at least a few (if not all) of the slides from a powerpoint I made for my friends explaining why Stancy doesn't work and Steddie does

Keep in mind, this was not originally intended for general audiences but I've reached the end of my rope with this and I'm gonna show you some research I did (though I'm gonna exclude some of my slides cause they're introducing the characters for my friends who don't watch ST)

my first two slides, because some of this was jokes but I'm so actually fucking serious about this it's crazy

my summarization of both of their relationships (some of the Steddie one was jokes because they don't actually have a canon relationship obv)

and this is the summation of my analysis of both relationships (or what I think their relationship could be by analyzing the way they interact in Steve and Eddie's case). This doesn't even include the fact that Steve evidently wants a big family according to ST4, which Nancy straight up said is the last thing she wants. So, in being with Steve, she'd be trapped in her worst nightmare and would grow to eventually resent him. She even says this during that conversation:

Because she doesn't want kids! She expressed this early on the series when she's talking about her parents with Jonathan, telling him about how her dad was older and her mom married him for money. She didn't want to be like her parents, she still doesn't. She's trying her hardest to pave a path for herself in her journalism, by any means necessary. You think she can do that stuck in a house on the end of a cul-de-sac with someone she never truly loved in the first place?? NO!!! She says this to Jonathan in S1 E6, which just further proves my point

so hearing that, do you think she wants a cute little family with Steve, schlepping across the country with "six little nuggets" in tow? Absolutely the fuck not.

AND, for Steve, he straight up tells Robin that he doesn't love Nancy anymore. While he was on 'truth serum' from the russians. He doesn't even hesitate, and here's the scene if you wanna watch it again cause you don't believe me.

Even Murray, an outsider looking in, could see their relationship was not it

Like, do y'all not remember this?

Cause I do

this shows that even an outside party, who is JUST MEETING Nancy, can tell that she no longer loves Steve, and that's assuming she ever had feelings like that for him in the first place.

In S4, he SPECIFICALLY says, after the bit about crawling backwards, that he says when he gets a big enough thump on his head, he can change and move forward. He thanks her for helping him to 'crawl forward', which I kind of interpreted as a 'hey, thanks for showing me that the way I was acting before sucked, and you breaking up with me changed my life for the better', the breakup acting as his proverbial bump to the head in this particular case.

Speaking as someone who has been in an extremely unhealthy relationship in the past, I think that Steve is simply going through a denial stage at this point, his rose colored glasses coming back on to romanticize the good parts of his and Nancy's relationship instead of seeing the entirety of it. The good and the bad, even though from what we see as an audience, there's much more bad outweighing the good. Especially considering they weren't together for very long by the time the events of season 1 took place.

At the beginning of season 2, it seems like from Steve's perspective, the stuff involving the Upside Down (i.e, Barb's death, facing the demogorgon together, etc.), brought them closer together, but to Nancy, it made it easier for her to distance herself from Steve, for whatever reasons she personally may have found prominent at the time.

She at least acts like she's in denial at first about not being in love with Steve, but she lets that fall apart insanely quickly, considering she kisses/sleeps with Jonathan at Murray's a few hours after they talk about her love life/relationship with Steve where she says that she does in fact love him??

Delving into the mind of Nancy Wheeler is a complicated endeavor, the same could be said for Steve Harrington himself, but long story short, the idea that the Duffers could possibly be pushing them back together bothers me a lot because it'd be like Steve crawling backward all over again. It's like they don't know what to do with him unless he has some sort of love interest and it kind of shows. In S1 and S2, it was Nancy, in S3, it was Robin and now they're trying to come full circle which doesn't make any logical sense.

In all honesty, I think Nancy should just take a break from having a relationship all together, to finally let herself grieve Barb properly and Steve should have a partner that matches his emotional maturity that he's gained over the past seasons.

But that's all I'm gonna say, so thank you for coming to my TED talk and I hope you enjoyed <3

[elizabethrobertajones]

I'm so confused!! In Lily Sunder has some Regrets Cas was so - I wouldn't say weak - but he was kinda not so powerful. In the end he was all bruised up, he was weakened by healing Isham?? I don't understand. He used to heal people easily without getting weakened by it and he never had lasting injuries before.. Technically, the state of Cas's grace is the same as it was in s4 right? So, I really don't get why he's less powerful now.. Any ideas?

Cas got his grace back in 10x18 and it was his original one, but some of it was used up for the angel fall spell, and he will never have it back again. He’s technically much WEAKER than all the other angels now, because they’re working on 100% grace, and he’s down to maybe like, 50-30% depending on how much you think Metatron used up :P Enough to prop Cas up, but nothing like enough to be like his older self. 

In 9x18 and 9x23 when he was sick he managed to heal Hannah without flinching, and Gadreel of a deeper wound caused by the first blade with visible distress but not so much he wasn’t back to somewhat normal after that in the next scene.

In 10x20 with his grace back he couldn’t heal Amelia, but the grigori had been doing damage to her soul, so it seemed not to be a big deal except as an omen he might not be okay.

In 10x23 Cas was immediately healed of all the damage Dean did to him in the previous episode.

He lasted 3 episodes with Rowena’s curse which killed a human in about 5 minutes so he’s clearly way more powerful than regular people, and since 11x03 has been cheerfully healing Sam and Dean of any boo boos they incur. Once they got the curse lifted, he seemed perfectly fine by the time they got him back to the Bunker, since he was offering to heal Dean and able to do it after 11x04.

In 11x06 it turns out he’s not fine, but only emotionally - he’s strong enough to beat Metatron to a pulp, but he starts the episode basically in a sick bed as his little arc of recovering from the curse (where it seemed like he was physically fine immediately after) turns into showing us he’s not emotionally fine at all, but is suffering serious PTSD. 

In 11x10 he plays nurse with Dean but is only diagnosing him and it’s something he wouldn’t be able to heal. He’s also easily bested in a fight with Amara, who was last seen melting several angels, but took a whole lot of damage from the smiting and makes an interesting parallel of drawing herself back together and also consuming Ambriel (as angel grace) to power herself up a bit (as well as eating human and demonic souls). Basically they’re both really sickly when they meet, so… not a great demonstration of power :P He’s also being made to feel useless. 

In 12x01 he heals Mary and is fine, and off-screen between 12x02 and 12x03 heals Sam and is apparently fine. 

In 12x07 he gets his ass handed to him by Lucifer, who is ALSO sickly and weakened by his decaying vessel, so not a well-balanced fight.

in 12x09 he doesn’t actually do anything with his grace as far as I recall, but he describes running from doing a hunt when it overwhelmed him emotionally, so there’s an emphasis on his emotional state which a lot of people read as weakness and uselessness like he had been powered down…

Then in 12x10 he heals another angel but it completely saps him and leaves him too weak to fight back and it takes him a long time to recover. 

I think there is something going on with him right now that he’s got lasting injuries - his power definitely seems to be a subject of discussion… I honestly think it has a lot to do with his emotional state and that they’re deliberately showing it as weakness when he’s not doing well. Especially stuff like the vampires he couldn’t kill, Metatron in 11x06, and those fights with Lucifer and Amara - the dialogue was about how weak he felt or how useless or terrible he is. In 11x18 when we see inside his head, he’s still watching TV and cut off from the world and not engaging in the fight even when it’s happening right in front of him. (Not that he really cared to root for either Lucifer or Crowley but still. There was a message from Dean involved and he didn’t look up.) I think as part of this arc, Cas is being subdued and weakened a lot.

But there is some really interesting stuff about souls and grace (the fact Cas has been able to heal angels without really hurting himself, though it seems to take more power, the whole stealing grace thing to power himself up, which Amara reminded us of more recently), that thing with the grigori where souls were being siphoned off for food/power for an angel… Now Lily and her enochian magic tapping her soul to do angel magic, and the description of nephilim as having both a soul and grace…

Since Cas is the main angel character all this side stuff about angels and souls is at least sort of a jigsaw puzzle of related things to him, although some of it isn’t very clear, there’s patterns and themes that repeat (and this was just going from the end of season 9 onwards… Going back earlier, Cas WAS human, and had a soul but swallowed angel grace on top of that - Lily’s powers are another twist on what Cas did in season 9, or to go back even further, told Crowley he DIDN’T have a soul to sell, so filled himself instead with millions of monstrous souls and thousands of leviathan… Or to go back to the start of this for Cas, the really rudimentary exploration of his first brush with humanity back in season 5, where he mostly just found it that he was useless and annoyed about that without any deep metaphysical discussion of what was going on with him…) 

Anyway we’ve seen him get sick many times, and seen him get overwhelmed emotionally which can be mistaken for physical weakness… We’ve never seen him get sick from healing before, but we’ve seen him not be able to do it, either because his grace was weak or because it was things he couldn’t heal. Whether this is the pattern of how the show stops him being a deus ex machina for everything or if there’s something genuinely wrong with him I guess we’ll find out soon. It seems like there’s a focus on it right now since there was just so much lore about angels and grace and power, right on top of Cas being more than usually powerless and overwhelmed… I don’t know if something’s wrong with him already or something’s coming, but we still haven’t seen the episode where he’s got all the weird black cracks on him, so there’s definitely something terrible in store coming :P I guess we find out how it relates to all this or if it’s just a ~random spell~ or something. Which might also be metaphorically interesting for how he’s doing >.> He’s been really not doing very well for years, for different reasons, but since he got his grace back, he’s been emotionally damaged which leads to moments of apparent weakness, far more than he’s been too weak to handle things.

Weirdly since he got his real grace back he’s stopped blowing up doors.