#s1 s2 s3 and s4 is them being vulnerable just when they're together

[furoruisa]

Is so unfair that I'm so obsessed with them, and I'm never getting them back like I will never have my favorite nerd couple again

[mlchaelwheeler]

crazy hours but will and mike's friendship is literally the foundation of both their characters, the evidence is in seasons 1 and 2. if you create a conflict with their friendship and don't successfully resolve it in your narrative you've clearly misunderstood the defining aspects of your characters.

nothing about s4 made it feel like they've reached a resolution in their friendship, there is no emotional payoff. i don't accept the "it felt like i lost you" as a resolution for mike's behaviour especially when they later wrote will's feelings for mike as if they're mike's feelings for el. that is a conflict in their friendship. will is still hiding who he is from mike, there is still a deep chasm in their relationship. mike couldn't even tell his girlfriend of two years he loves her without will's cheerleading from the side.

if they can't have mike in a happy relationship with el and a happy friendship with will at the same time, without either suffering, they've failed their characters. conflict for conflicts sake is poor writing, to make your character seem more interesting with no substance.

the duffer brothers really just took mike's devotion to will in seasons 1-2 and said "it means nothing" and wrote something truly awful. how can you screw up what defines your own characters so badly lmao. idc about byler anymore because i'm very doubtful but for gods sake at least write something where both mike and will are genuine and truthful to each other so their bond can properly be repaired and viewers can feel content with the end of their chapter together.

Real talk!! Mike and Will's characters literally revolve around each other and their deep relationship throughout S1-2. Even if you don't ship byler, it's blatently obvious that Mike and Will have a deeper and more special friendship/connection than they do with the rest of the party. This relationship should've been the core moving forward into S3, but instead it was fractured by the overwhelming amount of time Mike spent with El. This obviously made Will sad and angry (well deserved too, since his best friend since kindergarten suddenly decided to ditch him), but it's also interesting that Mike has only been shown to have trouble interacting normally with Will.

In S4, Mike has no problem having a normal friendship with Lucas, Max, and Dustin. He can hug them normally and nothing is tense or weird. Yet the second he sees Will, he's unable to properly hug him, then ignores him all day only to later reveal he's been paying close attention to Will's behavior/mood the whole time! Once El leaves, Mike and Will's relationship seems to be back to how it used to be: they're being vulnerable with each other and telling each other the truth (mostly) about their feelings. Yet once El gets back, Mike is back to treating Will like trash. It's so obvious that Mike has no idea how to balance himself between Will and El. It's like he can only focus on one of them at a time, and is only his real self when he's around Will. When he's with El, Mike is rude, fake, and stuff/unemotional. He lies constantly and makes excuses to cover for his behavior. Yet when he's with Will, he's honest about what he's thinking and is always paying extra-close attention to him.

It's clear that Mike and Will still have a strong friendship, it's just that El is getting in the way. Unfortunately, because Will believes Mike will never like him back, he resorts to using their friendship bond to help fix Mike. He does this by disguising his feelings and the painting to be about El, when they're actually about him. Will is always trying to make Mike feel better, even when it's at his own expense. If Mike really was a good friend, he'd notice this and check up on Will too. I'm really hoping that's where they're headed in S5, because the final scene seemed like a callback to S2, when Mike was glued to Will's side the whole time.

[kaypeace21]

Do you have any meta/theory on the significance of the cleric/paladin d&d characters vs wizard/dungeon master. Is maybe one more Will and Mike's relationship and the other their role in the story as a whole? Sorry if you already mentioned this and this is redundant

Yeah, I’ve talked about it before. But why not talk about it again? It’s been a while- and Will’s recently published journal (plus st tweets) added more to this symbolism

The Duffers used Will and Mike’s d&d classes to say they’re soulmates! XD

Will in all 3 seasons identifies as a wizard- he even writes on the mixtape he makes “will the wise- wizard mix” (which is a different class than clerics). Even in s1 Will’s castle byer’s password was “rhadaghast” a lothr wizard.

But in s2 Mike (the paladin) says that Will is a cleric. Meaning this reflects how Mike (alone) actually feels about Will. In d&d, they have similar moral values, powers, and generally need and depend on each other in the lore of d&d.  Mike says Will is a cleric,despite Will still identifying as a wizard in s3, since it shows how deeply Mike actually feels about Will.

It shows he views Will as one of the only people who understands him and views him as a his moral compass 

“ strength of conviction gave many paladins a sense of common fellowship but did not always endear them to others. In many cases, paladins did not get along quite as well with other non-paladin adventurers, with the exception of clerics with similar beliefs.”

“A Paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous Paladin is fallible. Sometimes the heat of emotion causes a Paladin to transgress his or her oath (of honesty, courage, compassion, honor ,and duty). A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order…

“The paladin might spend an all-night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act of self-denial.”

“After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.”

“Using the ‘lay on hands’ power, paladins can grant their comrades (or themselves) additional resilience with a touch of their hands and a short prayer, though they must give their own strength to do so.”

And Mike calls El a “mage” which wasn’t even a class in D&D (in the 80s)- A line he says to Max about zoomer (who he doesn’t like) …so… how much do you want to bet Mike was the one who made him and Will matching by giving him and Will “lawful good” (since this is writen in his starter kit). And he already ignored the fact Will is a wizard. 

But in Will’s recently published cannon journal he also does this- he keeps Lucas (Ranger) , Dustin (Bard) and his own character (a wizard) …but he changes Mike to a cleric !!!

Because Clerics have the strongest of healing abilities

Mike thinks Will brings out the best in him. And Will thinks Mike as someone who helps him heal. So they both call each other clerics.

D&D also represents their romantic relationship

when they fight in s3 Mike says “I’m not trying to be a jerk. We’re not kids anymore. I mean…what did you think? That we’d never get girlfriends. Play games for the rest of our lives?” And the truth is that’s actually what Mike wants- which is why he was upset about Will trying to give away the d&d game . And why he still has all of Will’s d&d pictures on his basement’s wall (which he’s kept on his wall for years- despite removing the old poster from the wall). And during Hopper’s speech, when it pans to Mike , Hopper says “I miss playing games every night.”

* He also caresses Will’s  d&d drawing- when he thinks he’s dead- and has a binder filled with every d&d drawing Will has ever given him.

 In the first ep - Will  admits he rolls a 7 (since he couldn’t lie to Mike)-  and in the last ep of s1 (they show us Mike smiling at Will right before Will rolls a 14- since they’re 7s together.) Mike even apologizes to EL saying “sorry I sound like a 7 year old.” When talking about how all 3 can play with toys & right after talking about Will visiting to play. and mentions Will’s rolls as a way to convince Lucas to help him look for him.And Mike even mentions Will rolls as a way to convince Lucas to help him look for him in the first ep.

Mike in the last ep in s1 ,writes a d&d story for Will.  in ep one Will tells Mike “it was a 7, the demogorgan it got me.”At the end of the season Mike writes a whole story of him and his friends killing a 7 headed monster, and showing the decapitated head of the monster to king Tristan (Will). Similar to how at the hospital he tells Will to not worry cause “it’s dead now”. This is right after Will rolls a 14 (cause Mike and Will are 7s together). And Mike who is a fan of starwars has King Tristan give them medals after killing the monster. Cause he wants Will/king tristan (instead of Leia -a girl) to present him with medals and be his romantic love interest (and praise him for being a hero)…

In the pilot, they even say Will uses d&d to “escape” his insecurities about his sexuality “like mike” & Mike uses d&d to “escape” his insecurities about not having a gf.  * And no, dustin & Lucas didn’t use d&d to “escape” anything- in the pilot script.

Mike angrily yells “El’s not stupid. It’s not my fault you don’t like girls” to himself- cause Will hit a nerve when saying mileven was ruining their friendship - because a part of Mike is trying to use El to put distance between him and Will . Dustin in s1 foreshadows the fight, saying “all you want to do is spent time with her… and you know it and he knows it. And nobody says anything until you’re yelling at eachother like goblins with intelligence scores of zero.” (Another  d&d ref/ ‘love makes you stupid’ ref.).

And also, maybe a part of him resents how Will is making him feel. So he says this whole speech , in the garage, to himself - to keep his romantic feelings for Will under control ( expecting Will to agree with the heteronormative statement). Which is why he was so shocked when Will (who he assumes is straight) and he expects would agree -  instead says “yeah, I guess I did. I really did.” (about never getting gfs but instead being together for the rest of their lives). 

And the  “crazy together” scene (which is romantic since both Mike & Flo both equate love making you ‘crazy’. Flo says “ only love makes you crazy and that damn stupid”). And the ‘crazy together’ scene also has a zoom-in on Mike’s d&d game.

(x)(x)

Mike and Will both love each other (and El is just confused). He wants to be with Will- but he’s scared. The Hopper dialogue even says “Lately, I feel like you’re pulling away from me or something? I miss playing board games every night.” Mike was upset when Will gives the game up- but Will says “I’ll just play with yours when I come back… if we still want to play?” In other words- the ball is in Mike’s court- if he wants Will, he has to initiate it. Because Will assumes he was “stupid” to think he had a chance. Mike is also acting “stupid” because he’s pushing away Will despite loving him, and hurting him in the process (the opposite of a cleric).

But Mike in s4 will admit his feelings to Will… since after Will says this line, Mike asks

“Yeah, but what happens if you want to join another party? ” (find someone else (‘another’) before that- the other ‘species’, or just someone else: girl, guy or otherwise?”

But Will decides to make himself vulnerable and just be honest,  and shyly admits “Not possible” (much to Mike’s happiness)

so yes- this tweet is about byler

They even answered the question of ‘what makes Mike crazy’ with one’ joke’ response - of Will asking about d&d. And in a separate post made fun of mileven by ending it with “can we just play d&d?”

And when, Mike and Will open up to each other about their mental-health issues,  that’s when they both agree that no matter what they’ll be together- “crazy together”. It’s a double entendre - they’re crazy cause they’re in love- but also “crazy” and will be “together” to help each other through their issues.  This theme is double-downed on in Will’s cannon journal (where it’s established “crazy together” is shown to be Mike & Will’s thing- not mileven’s). As Mike tells Will to tell him when he’s having ptsd episodes since- they're “crazy together”.

*Will draws Mike’s d&d character next to the sticky-note. And we also see throughout Will’s whole journal- Mike’s d&d character is always by Will’s (d&d character’s side). And on the cover of his journal Will ONLY draws his and Mike’s character- cause they’re “crazy together”.

Mike specifically says to get him when he’s having ptsd episodes about the mf (which represent Will’s se*ually abusive father- theory here/ here).

That’s what love is - like Flo said only love makes you “crazy” and “stupid” and this is only applicable to byler.  Mike and Will love and  bring out the best in each other-  heal each other. Being “crazy together” to Mike is about being selfless and wanting the best for you partner’s happiness no matter what- with mileven it was simply a way to excuse his poor behavior to El (under the guise of ‘love’).

 For all the supernatural stuff to stop , Will has to face his trauma and heal. This involves having a strong support  (of friends and family) and Will learning to not hate himself any longer, because of his past abuse and sexuality. And to stop correlating his love (for Mike) with his past abuse/trauma (represented by the monsters. And Mike and Will have to embrace their love for each other. And let go of their shame. When Will ‘dies’ in s1, Mike hugs his mom ,and  Heroes plays, and the lyrics are “and we kiss as though nothing could fall and the shame… was on the other side.” In s1 the term “other side” was used to describe the upside down. So it’s saying Will’s shame relating to Lonnie will eventually be on the other side, and so Mike and Will kiss ‘as though nothing could fall’. In Will’s journal he even draws Mike’s d&d character again with the caption “never Kenny Roggers”. This is because Jonathan asks ‘who would you rather  be friends with David bowie or Kenny roggers?”. And Heroes was originally sung by David Bowie- making the byler hint of this being ‘their song’, more apparent. The cannon Will-comic is even titled  the “other side” and Mike is on the opposite end (‘the other side’ waiting for Will who is trapped in the upside down looking up at the imposing figure of the demogorgan). The demorgogan in blue light and mike in opposing red light. The monsters Will created are based on the d&d game and his prior abuse at the hands of lonnie. But byler’s love is also represented by d&d- and thus the only way to stop it.

gif credit: cath-avery 

[sol1056]

Do you think Lance's romance arc is well written?? I was kind of hoping he will learn that he doesn't need a romantic relationship, but clearly that's not the direction they're going for.

This is walking the thin line of shipping, except for the heavy-handed hints in the plot that it’s potentially canonical. On that count, I’ll go with it.  

I feel like Lance is going to end up with the girl not because of anything he did, but because he’s the lesser of two evils (compared to Lotor, like, literally). And besides, he’s spent all this time moping in the background to the detriment of anything else on his plate, so, like, give him a consolation prize or something. 

Ugh.

No, I don’t think his arc is well-written, at all. There’s two parts to my reaction, actually. One has to do with the Lance I remember from the original series. The other is that I’m not that kid anymore, and now I need to see (not just be told) a solid and healthy relationship, if I’m to believe in it.

original recipe Lance

There’s one irony about Lance – as a kid, I actually shipped him with Allura. So hard. (Yes, kids are perfectly capable of seeing two characters and thinking they belong together. Don’t @ me.)

Lance v1 seemed to genuinely like Allura, but he never really said anything. Never did anything. He was a flirt, and snarky, but he wasn’t mean about it. Lance seemed to know Allura would never end up with him, too. So there seemed to always be a line he wouldn’t cross. 

And I recall liking the way Lance would call Keith out on things, but it was equally obvious he was on Keith’s side, absolutely loyal. One of the things I admired about Keith was that Lance’s tone or apparent attitude never seemed to bother him. (Keith’s patience mystified me as a kid.)   

Lance and Keith are a good example of something I think a lot of people miss when talking about shows for kids. The focus is almost always on role models – who you want to be – and we miss that it’s equally important to have analogues – who you know you are. Keith was a role model, but Lance was an analogue. I admired Keith, but I couldn’t really relate to him.

As an analogue, every time Lance was accepted and appreciated despite the way he’d argue or snark – it gave me hope that there might be people who’d like me like that, too. Lance was a kindred spirit, and I wanted to see him be happy, so I could believe the same might be possible for me, too, someday. 

I’m sure you can imagine how baffled I was – and then kinda disappointed – with the new version of Lance.   

redoing Lance version 2.0

His arc started way too late, and it’s hard to get past where he’s been at for over half the series already. He should’ve wised up – or had someone, anyone, wise his ass up – very early in S1 about his unwelcome flirtation. By mid-S1, he should’ve apologized for the way he’d acted, and promised to do better. In S2, that’s where their friendship should’ve started. Let him do the emotional labor, while pretending to be fine. Let his crush become more, but have him keep it to himself (and the audience).

Flip the script in S3, where Allura returns the support when Lance is the one struggling. Have Lance call Keith out not just on being a dick about leading, but also on the necessity of apologizing to Allura for leaving her behind. Maybe even arm-twist Keith into giving Allura tips on piloting a lion. 

Assuming the clone plot (another ugh) was still in place, by S4 we should have Allura and Lance be as close as Lance and Hunk (allegedly) are. Let Lance be aware he likes her, doubt she likes him, and decide that’s okay. When Lotor shows up in S5, Lance isn’t threatened by Lotor’s advances so much as worried for the way Allura’s doubting herself. Make him an actual friend, damn it, not just some territorial possessive fuckboy. 

And when Allura gets her heart broken, let Lance have a bit of pride. Have him talk to Hunk, or even Shiro, and decide on his own that he’d rather be seen and chosen for himself. Not as rebound or as consolation prize – the difference between “I don’t like him so I’ll pick you” and “I’m picking you because it’s you.” Show that a guy can have boundaries and self-respect and want to be liked for himself, too.

Scatter little scenes through S7, showing the two of them finding their footing again as friends. This time around, let Lance be the one who’s ignorant of Allura’s growing attraction. But always framed in a sincere friendship, one where they’re each vulnerable around each other like they aren’t with anyone else. And maybe their own in-jokes by this point. By the time we get to S8, I’d be rooting for them both, so hard. 

In a way, it’s like any other arc. Victory is hollow – means less, matters less – if it’s just handed to you. Nope, you gotta put in the effort and earn that happy ending, kiddo. Even if your final destination is as simple (and as phenomenally hard) as falling in love.