#robb is lyanna with cat's looks and jon is cat with lyanna's looks

[asinglewildflower]

#cat stark is jon's real mother as in mother of the narrative

#you know how sansa and arya are foils because sansa is ned with cat's looks and arya is cat with ned's looks

#robb is lyanna with cat's looks and jon is cat with lyanna's looks

(tags via @befooremoonrisee)

the way in which jon and robb's futures are foreshadowed by the mother of the other: robb dying too young and becoming a ghost that haunts their siblings, a reminder of innocence and happier days, and jon dying and being brought back to life, a shadow of what he once was, a dark mirror to himself

[imaginarianisms]

on house s.tark.

[15-lizards]

I’d love to see how you picture different characters looking in terms of appearance/which race they most reflect

FACE CLAIM TIME RAHHHH

The Starks are sooo Inuit to me. At least Ned, Lyanna, Jon, and Arya are. The rest of them are white passing bc Cat’s Irish riverlander genes are just too strong. Honestly most of the people from Winterfell up to the wall would probably resemble the native populations from cold climates, bc real world answer= adaptation and evolution, in universe= this is what the first men looked like

But those Tully-Whent genes are just too strong. The power of the inherent Celtic grief that comes with being a riverlander is unbeatable. Sorry Ned your son and heir looks like a haunted Irish girl. At least Bran has some of ur facial structure. Pictured (as I imagine them) In order: Cat, Lysa, Robb, Sansa, Bran. No Rickon just imagine a red haired baby idk

[esther-dot]

Idk how attractive jon is supposed to be but he has the stark look and sansa has a thing for the stark look, i mean look at waymar and loras, their descriptions match jon's exactly. Sansa's opinion at the end of the day>>>

I love Sansa’s Waymar and Loras crushes! So cute! I kinda think a good part of what attracts Sansa to any given guy is the romantic notions she can attach to them, not strictly their physical appearance? So while I certainly agree with the Jon and Waymar parallels and think martin intentionally wrote similarities between Jon and her crushes, I believe her romanticized view of knight was a factor as well. Personally, I wish Martin talked about Sansa’s body/ how beautiful she is a lot less, so this isn't a topic I enjoy discussing, but the convo kicked off because of a poll and here’s a screenshot of my totally unremarkable tags:

And here’s what an angry Jon fan posted because they didn’t like the tags on the poll:

They go on to criticize other tags by Sansa fans/Jonsas, but mine were based on specific lines from the books because the question wasn’t vibes but canonical beauty, and it so happens, these are lines I am very fond of because I love NedCat:

And was it really such a terrible thing, to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. (ASOS, Catelyn V)

It’s a beautiful passage with a lovely sentiment, so I take exception to classifying this as petty fandom shit when there was nothing intentionally insulting behind what I said, I just think Cat's thoughts about a man she dearly loves were pertinent. Also, Jon’s Stark looks are a big R+L=J clue which is teased a lot in AGOT so it’s intentional and important:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked. (AGOT, Tyrion II)

Martin described Jon’s face the same way he does Ned’s here, although the point was ha ha! he has the Stark look not because of his father but because of his mother, Lyanna.

Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. (AGOT, Arya I)

Arya heard and whirled around, glaring. "I don't care what you say, I'm going out riding." Her long horsey face got the stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful. (AGOT, Sansa I)

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. (AGOT, Sansa I)

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." (AGOT, Arya II)

Now, Ned goes on to say Lyanna is beautiful so a lot of fans really emphasize that and say it means Jon and Arya are/will be attractive, and maybe! It doesn't bother me for people to read it that way, but if you look at the other uses of long face in ASOIAF, or the Stark look, I think it indicates, it's not particularly attractive, and one might even say, it's unremarkable. I didn’t say ugly, its simply unexceptional imo. Obviously the horsey face/horse faced stuff is an insult so we don't have to take that to be a neutral assessment, but I don't think it actually means pretty either, not when you look at how it's used elsewhere.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if Jon is handsome or not because we all were supposed to have already learned that what matters is who he is, not his face. So, while I have no investment in how attractive/unattractive these characters are, I imagine that Jon being Jon is what will make Sansa fall for him, not how pretty he is. Something that might sound kinda like this:

I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's Jon's solemn face

[lilianacrouch]

Starks:

Some inspiration from Keanu Reeves on Eddard, mixed in some Sami/Inuit features. Gotta have that long face

Catelyn is what I would call genericly pretty, rounder and softer features

Jon is actually a mix of Lyanna (will probably do that generation at one time) and random sim as stand-in for 'absent father', but keeping the important Stark features, so he looks the most like Ned.

Robb is pretty much a Cat copy, with squarer features and Ned's eye shape.

Sansa has Cat's general faceshape, but narrower features. She also has Ned's monolid eyes, but in Cat's shape and colour. I'm picturing her as growing into even narrower features when older.

Arya is a Lyanna lookalike, but with Cat's eyelids and mouth.

Both Bran and Rickon have more even mixes of their parents, Rickon ending up looking most like Ned in the end, of all the boys. (Hard to see features on kids in ts, so I did do a grown up version of the Starklings)

[atopvisenyashill]

do u remember the characters who were complimented the most by their beauty in the books?

off the top of my head (and keeping in mind i’m still on asos and haven’t reread feastdance at least since the show ended so like 3-4 years) characters who get complimented most often for beauty are -

cersei

sansa

dany

margaery

jaime (not joking, he doesn’t get called handsome, he gets called beautiful. think more brad pitt and less george clooney)

joffrey (similar to jaime, altho tbf most of the comments on his beauty come from sansa)

loras

characters who are less complimented mostly due to them not being in every book but still notable beauties include-

arianne

catelyn & lysa - i’m like 80% sure people comment on lysa being beautiful when she’s younger & less so now, but don’t quote me there. i know people comment on cat being hot af when she’s younger, and multiple people remark on her hair so she clearly still Has It, she’s just not in a position where men are throwing themselves at her feet in the series given, ya kno, the war

melisandre

roslin frey

margaery’s lady’s court - her girls, taena, and alerie are all described at some point or another as being beautiful

taena of myr - wanted to mention her specifically, people tend to think of her as striking

val the wildling

ygritte the wildling - notable that this is incredibly conditional bc jon only starts referring to her as beautiful after they start sleeping together BUT the wildlings consider her beautiful bc of her hair

rohanne webber

characters noted to be beautiful by people who are clearly fishing for a compliment to pay her (aka, She Is Beautiful To Me, I Understand Her)-

jeyne westerling - i want to add her bc you have cat, robb, and jaime all acknowledge she’s “pretty enough” but are won over by her after talking to her, which probably speaks more to how she carries herself than her actual looks. but as a westerling stan, it’s notable To Me haha

brienne - i need to include this bc the “she could almost be a lady she could almost be a knight” is one of my favorite lines in the series, it makes me crazy and i think any post about beauty that doesn’t include brienne isn’t complete. that brienne gets the “brienne the beauty” moniker bc she’s ugly even as jaime keeps thinking about how she’s beautiful in some way or another is, imo, notable in how george sees & defines beauty (very much in the eye of the beholder, and that love can make you search for beauty in someone who is objectively not beautiful according to The Societal Standards)

arya - ned compares her to lyanna (and obviously ned isn’t gonna tell his daughter “you’re an uggo my sister was hot as fuck tho”) & gendry & edric both get a lil flustered over her

ellaria sand - noted that she’s not strictly beautiful but “something draws the eye” which seems like jeyne it’s about how she carries herself than her actual looks

jeyne poole - i mean. lots of comments about how she’s pretty ish and they’re clearly meant cruelly, almost as a way of tormenting her (no fancy last name, no wolf’s blood, not even pretty enough to get someone to rescue her)

pre-asoiaf mentioned in the main series for their beauty include-

lyanna stark

ashara dayne

missy blackwood

barba bracken

rhaegar targaryen

and pre-asoiaf characters noted to be beautiful in twoiaf or f&b-

rhaenys targaryen (the conqueror)

nymeria of ny sar

rhaena the lesbian

alyssa velaryon

jocelyn baratheon

viserra targaryen

rhaenys velaryon

rhaenyra targaryen - notable that she’s considered beautiful as a child but less so as an adult (bc westeros is full of fucking weirdos)

helaena targaryen - described as being more beautiful than alicent and that’s really it

daenaera velaryon - ditto on westeros being full of weirdos lol

jaehaera targaryen - again. she is like 12 when she dies but half the realm is commenting on this beautiful child. i hate these people so much.

baela targaryen

lady sam hightower

something that’s notable is that george makes a continued distinction between “pretty” and beautiful - alysanne targaryen is considered pretty but not beautiful, for example. so there’s people like jeyne westerling who are “pretty enough” as in, not ugly, not plain, but not, as jaime puts it “beautiful enough to lose a kingdom over” as in they are drop dead, model, helen of troy type gorgeous.

that’s also why i wanted to include the “fishing for compliments” type girls bc these women are very aware that they’re not pretty enough and often wind up carrying themselves differently as a response to this - if they can’t be gorgeous they’ll be so disarming, so striking, that people will spin back around to beautiful. ygritte is the biggest example of this imo because how jon perceives her beauty is very tied to how his relationship with her develops - he purposefully conflates her beauty with her violence bc he wants to find her violence beautiful bc that would make his life infinitely easier, and after she dies he’s very clear headed that she isn’t that pretty but she is TO HIM, she is beautiful in his memory because of his feelings for her. it makes him very wary of melisandre & val as a result - because he conflates beauty and violence in ygritte, it makes him wary of other harsh & beautiful women. or take lyanna, who is remembered often as being beautiful yet in ned’s memory, this beauty is part of what dooms her and he is outwardly hostile whenever people mention her beauty - to ned, that beauty brought only horror so he doesn’t dwell on it.

there’s lots of commentary here on what “beautiful” actually means from person to person, so while i would say the first group are more objectively beautiful, it’s also important to think about context - who is thinking they’re beautiful, why they’re thinking this, and what their relationship is.

[cerseistannis]

fic idea (stannis/cersei)

this is realllly rough so please don't judge me too much! i'm kind of just throwing stuff at the wall here. SO. here's the premise:

robert's rebellion fails. robert is killed on the trident and rhaegar takes lyanna as his second wife. lyanna (who is just a glorified hostage at this point) begs mercy for ned, who is sent to the wall, and for the family of her former betrothed (robert) to be spared.

with robert dead, tywin doesn't sack the city. instead he joins forces with rhaegar and forces the rebels to surrender. aerys, however, blows up the red keep, and elia/rhaenys/aegon/jaime all perish in the fire. (this makes jon the de facto crown prince? i suppose?) i'm not quite sure what i want to do with dany and viserys, tbh. (open to all ideas! but i think it'd be easiest for them to simply be dead)

stannis and renly are allowed to live because they did little more than starve for a year. stannis also reluctantly declares his brother a traitor to the realm and is "forgiven". that + i guess rhaegar can't really afford to cause more trouble in his kingdom bc the north hates him already + the riverlands loathe him + dorne is mad as well.

(side note, what could realistically happen to robb and cat in this scenario? would cat be married off to benjen?)

anyway so tywin is well. REALLY mad. and with rhaegar marrying lyanna, stannis is quite literally the only somewhat eligible lord left in westeros.

and that's where my crackship!otp comes in!

so we've got a young, distraught (jaime died!) cersei who hates the targs and a young, traumatised stannis (who also hates the targs) trying to make it in this new world--raising renly on storm's end and having a family of their own eventually.

with no jaime in the picture, no abuse, (stannis isnt that bitter either) and the Trauma to bond over, i do think they'd be somewhat content.

-timeskip-

their firstborn son would be named jaime (and he looks exactly like robert did, of course, we pumping all the dead brother angst into this shit) and they have two more daughters--shireen and myrcella.

about ten years after RR, the greyjoys rise up in rebellion and rhaegar is horribly injured in the ensuing war. meanwhile lyanna has had no more children. rhaegar is losing faith in the prophecy and getting...paranoid.

on jaime's 10th nameday, he's summoned to be fostered at king's landing. both his parents absolutely LOATHE this idea, but it's quite obvious that it's not a request. renly offers to go with the boy. cersei is furious, (this is where her first jaime was killed, after all).

meanwhile, whispers of rebellion are beginning to abound again.

[sherlokiness]

been reading your Lyanna and Rhaegar posts and I very much agree with you about them having a wedding. If we assume that those Kingsguard's weren't false Kingsguards like Jaime and weren't lying about them keeping their "vow" then the most logical explanation would be that Jon is legitimate. When Aerys died, they should have gone to protect their new King Viserys yet they refused to do so. The reason for staying in the ToJ must have been because whatever they're guarding there takes higher priority than Viserys.

What do you think will be for the future of Sansa and Jon then? They will be the second Stark and Targaryen union in the current story we'll see. Since Sansa is a bastard just like Jon that means Jon isn't a bastard at all. They're made to pose as bastards by a father figure or else people would have their head. Stone and Snow. She's a Stark, he's a Targaryen.

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

Great point about Sansa saying she's a bastard just like Jon. If we take that as a hint of RLJ then what she says is actually the truth. She was made a bastard exactly like Jon yet in reality they were not at all. We also have a clue to what Jon might feel once he learns of his heritage.

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

They might offer him the IT(made up of many swords) and the allegiance of noble houses(my sword is yours.) He will never forget Ned and Rhaegar could just fuck off.💀💀

RLJ parallel for Jon and Sansa for me would probably them having a secret wedding. I mean, the books already teased Sansa having one with a cousin. But unlike RL, jonsa will have a public wedding too much like Jahaerys I and Alysanne. Next I would say is Sansa as the Girl in Grey. I very much believe the theory that Lyanna met Rhegar again at the Inn at the Crossroads which is where another iconic kidnapping took place- Cat seizing Tyrion. It resulted in hostilities between two major Houses where the Starks didn't know the inside story. It would have looked like a kidnapping specially if we have hostile forces against Lyanna there which were the King's men. So Sansa/Lyanna would be fleeing kidnappers only to end up with a Targaryen for safety. The elements involved would be a tourney, a crime, a wedding, and a rescue by a knight. Jon disdaining princesses in towers only to end up rescuing an actual one is peak comedy imo. 🤡🤡

As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there.

This could be interpreted as it is or could be that Jon is not the man to steal Val because he will steal another princess later. Jon, Sansa's brother, might also give her a bastard's head - Ramsay's. She already has Janos but she doesn't know that.

After my name day feast, I'm going to raise a host and kill your brother myself. That's what I'll give you, Lady Sansa. Your brother's head."

A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head."

Jon vs Ramsay has been foreshadowed by Ghost defending a prize from a yellow bitch three times his size. The most recent one would be Chett, a leech man's son with lordly ambitions, being defeated by "Snow and his pet pig." Lady Piggy is Jon Snow's lady love. There's only one notable guy in the story using leeches and it's Roose.

He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me?

Sansa's already considered doing before what Alys did.

Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. "You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me."

UndeadJon will know her and will fight for her. Jon has failed twice to fight for his family - Robb and Arya. He will succeed on the third one.

[ariamariastark1]

Why do Arya stans focus so much on her appearance?

Well, the truth is that, in one way or another, Arya's appearance is relevant to and essential to her characterisation, the Stark family dynamics and related book plots.

In the family dynamics, Arya is the only 'legitimate' child with the Stark looks, which puts Arya apart from her other full siblings and closer to Jon; her appearance is also an important factor in her relationship with Sansa because Sansa uses her northern looks to bully Arya. It also influences the way that Ned and Cat treat Arya, as we know that Catelyn is deeply insecure about the fact that Robb, Bran and Rickon are southern looking, and because Ned more often than not ends up projecting his guilt and trauma into Arya because of how much she looks like Lyanna.

It's also relevant to the book plot in a few ways: through Lyanna and Jon because we can't understand Lyanna without Arya and we can't correlate Lyanna to Jon without Arya and the biggest connection that the two have is their appearance-- ned claims that Arya acts and looks like her and Bran, when seeing the past, couldn't distinguish the two if it wasn't for the hair length.

Another way that Arya's appearance is relevant to the books is because of the Great Northern Conspiracy more specifically because the only reason why Littlefinger was able to convince people that the girl marrying Ramsey Bolten was Arya despite it being Jane Pool was that Arya Stark (the real one) has a deeply traditional northern look.

And finally, it is because Arya's own insecurity with her appearance is directly impacting Arya's growth and development.

Actually a lot of things that the fandom interprets as related to femininity are about her insecurity and appearance, which is incredibly ironic because, at the same time, the fandom makes things that are about feminity about appearance, like the fact that Arya blends in the common folk something that exists to point out how Arya understands them and how she lives like them but the fandom made it about Arya being ' ugly' (she isn't)

[reginarubie]

following the WW11 idea "meanwhile, at the Stark residence": - "Aemond is a menace and war criminal son i like him" by Arya- "Aemond is more of a wild dragon, just like i am more wolf than boy" by Rickon- "Aemond likes books and is witty" by Bran- "Aemond would prob want to punch Theon in the face like me" by Jon- "Aemond is sassy he would fit perfectly in the family" by Robb- "Aemond is just like the match i wish to find for Sansa" by Nedand Uncle Benjen is there too, i am sure hehehe

Hi nonny

And then there’s Catelyn overhearing Aemond and Aegon speaking of Joffrey, “I like that boy, he’s got his head on his shoulders, and it’s almost as ferocious as I am” and Benjen nodding along, because he knows his sister-in-law and is under no impression that it’s his brother the ferocious one. He knows it’s Cat.

And then there’s aunt Lyanna, just looking at him and be like “Eh, at least he has more backbone than Rhaegar ever did”

Because after all, game recognises game.

[ladycatofwinterfell]

🌹

This one is a finished fic. I wrote it, but then I got too self conscious to post it because I thought no one would want to read it. It takes place in my modern au and it’s Robb worrying he’s actually Brandon’s son and talking about it with Cat. And then some nedcat <3

When Catelyn’s mug was almost empty Robb still had yet to touch his. She would have been able to touch the silence, it was that dense. He had tried several times to begin talking and had failed every time.

She glanced on Robb’s phone as a notification made the screen light up, saw the time.

“You said you wanted to talk before Dad came home, he’ll be be home in fifteen minutes” she said.

She didn’t want to pressure him, whatever he wanted to talk about was something that was a big deal to him. It was very obvious. Catelyn really wished to know what it was that made him so, but that was impossible unless he told her. Was it something she had done? Would he tell her she had been a terrible mother to him through all his life?

“Fifteen minutes?” Robb said, surprised. “Gods, has it been that long?”

He ran a hand through his auburn curls, made them even messier than they had already been. His hand then went to his beard, stroking it. It made him look so grown. Well, he was grown. Grown enough to have a wife and kids.

“Yes. So if you have something you want to say to me you should say it now.”

Hearing herself say that made her more nervous. She wrapped both her hands around the mug in front of her on the table to keep herself from fiddling with them.

Robb sighed, something that reminded her a lot of his father. The Starks had a way of sighing as if they carried the entire world upon their shoulders, so deeply it was a wonder they had that much air in their lungs. A long, almost miserable sigh.

“Look, we both know Aunt Lya got maybe a little too drunk at the party” he said.

His hand was still stroking his beard and his blue eyes were fixed on hers. They had the same eyes, Ned had loved telling her that when Robb was little.

“I don’t think that escaped anyone’s notice.”

“Yeah, no, but as I was helping Jon get her into a cab she… uhm, well, she began talking about something.”

Catelyn felt herself frown.

What had Lyanna said? What was there to say that had stuck with Robb that much? Something that had to do with Catelyn. Or Ned.

“What was she talking about?” Catelyn asked.

Her son gave an uncomfortable chuckle at that.

“Slurred, really” he said. “She mentioned you and Uncle Brandon.”

That she had been with Brandon before Ned wasn’t her proudest achievement, but it was also no secret. Everyone knew. The kids knew, they had known for a long time. But it was all in the past, nothing that needed to be considered further than so. Brandon was nothing but her brother-in-law and at times it felt like it had always been that way.

“You already knew I was… acquainted with Brandon before I knew your father.”

Had it been possible to keep them in the dark about that she would have done it. She didn’t want the family to be more messed up than perfectly necessary, their mother having been with their uncle before their father was unneeded.

Robb looked down at the coffee mug in front of him and coughed.

“But I don’t think I ever knew just how close in time those two relationships were. Aunt Lya knew that.”

Unfortunately they had overlapped with a single day. None of them had meant for it to be that way, but it was the truth. Not that it mattered anymore. None of that mattered anymore, why was Robb asking about it? What had Lyanna said? Lyanna didn’t even know there had been an overlap, no one but she and Ned knew there had been an overlap. They hadn’t told anyone about that first time. As far as everyone else was aware it had just been close in time.

“Does it matter?”

She heard that her voice sounded a little strained. She wished he had wanted to talk about something else.

“It matters to me because I was born nine months after you and Dad met” Robb answered simply.

It could have been a comfort that he sounded as pained as she felt, though it wasn’t. On the contrary it just felt like that made everything worse.

“Where do you want to come with this, Robb?”

She suspected what it was, but she needed him to say it.

Her hands were wrapped tightly around the mug and she had to remind herself to breathe. It was stupid, she didn’t know why it affected her so much. She knew the answer to what it was he wondered and she knew that answer was the one they both wanted. There would be no uncomfortable truths. Still there was a stone on her chest. She wished he never would have had any doubt in the first place.

“I want to know if Dad really is my real father.”

It was clear that he was forcing out the words, that he was struggling with it.

“He is” she simply said.

Robb sighed that Stark signature sigh again, leaned back in his chair and looked at her again. He grabbed his mug with both hands, the way she had done.

“You don’t need to tell me what I want to hear. And if Dad doesn’t know the truth I promise not to tell–“

Catelyn felt the need to interrupt him before he could go any further.

“You’re his biological son, Robb, it’s not just something I say.”

“I don’t mean to doubt you, but are you sure?”

She let go of her mug, leaned forward and reached over the table. She took one of his hands into the both of hers and squeezed it lightly.

“We took a paternity test just after you were born. Your father didn’t think it was necessary, but I insisted.”

Waiting for the results had been the longest and most excruciating few days of her life. And she had given birth five times and lost both her parents. She had been terrified of losing Ned because she had a baby that belonged to his brother, and even more terrified of the notion that maybe he would stay with her even if it was that way. Out of some sense of duty. Because she had trapped him with Brandon’s baby. The relief when the results came back had also been the greatest of her life.

Robb snorted.

Why?”

“He said it didn’t matter to him, that you were his either way, but I had to know. I didn’t want to force another man’s child upon him. And the test came back saying you were his child, so everything was fine. You don’t have to worry.”

Both of them flinched when they heard the front door open.

It had not been fifteen minutes, Ned was a little early. That very rarely happened.

“Hello!” he called.

“Robb’s here, we’re in the kitchen!” Catelyn called back.

She let go of his hand, sat straight in her chair again.

Robb was still quite torn about it, it was obvious, though there was also a relief there. He was much calmer than he had been before. Even took a sip from his mug, the coffee had to be lukewarm at that point.

“Thanks, Mom” he said when he lowered it again.

“You have no reason to thank me.”

There was nothing she needed to be thanked for.

They sat in silence for a bit, a much more comfortable silence that time, before Ned came into the room.

For a moment Catelyn looked at Robb instead of at Ned. Saw how he smiled as he looked at his father, how the relief was joined by happiness.

“Hey, Dad” he said.

“Hey, son. Didn’t know you were coming over.”

Ned leaned against the doorframe, crossing his arms over his chest.

“I was in the area so i though I’d stop by. Jeyne and the kids are coming too, Mom invited us for dinner.”

She had done no such thing, but she would gladly have them over for dinner, so she didn’t point that out. The house was so empty and quiet when it was just her and Ned, ever since Rickon moved out it had felt too big.

“It feels like you’re growing tired of me” Ned said.

“That’s not true! I just want to see my son and my grandkids.”

“Our son and our grandkids, mind you.”

As if he had known what they were talking about just before he came there.

He came over to her, leaned down and gave her a quick kiss while Robb pretended he had seen something very interesting outside the window.

“Now, did Mom plan what to make for dinner?” Ned asked when he was standing upright again.

He put a hand on her shoulder and the other on the top of the backrest of her chair.

“She didn’t, it was a very spontaneous invite” she told him. “But I’m pretty sure we can come up with something.”

“I can ask Jeyne to get groceries on the way if you want to” Robb offered.

“No, that’s not necessary” Ned said after having considered for a moment. “I have an idea.”

“Okay.”

Ned nodded before leaving the room. Not much later they could hear the stairs creak as he went upstairs.

“Right” Robb said. “Guess I should call Jeyne and tell her we’re invited to dinner.”

He reached for his phone and opened it.

“Tell her you invited yourself to dinner” Catelyn snorted.

Robb waved a hand in a small circle.

“Technicalities.”

Just as he was about to hit the call button Catelyn felt the urge to say something more. Ned had interrupted them, after all.

“He was right, you know” she said softly.

“What?”

“It wouldn’t have mattered what the test said, he was always your father. He decided that you were his son the moment he knew you existed, and he wouldn’t have wavered even if you turned out to be Brandon’s biologically. So there was never any doubt about who your real father was.”

When tears began rising in his eyes Robb tried to blink them away. He was doing pretty well considering everything.

“Okay.”

His voice broke when he said it and he began wiping the tears from his eyes with the back of his hand rather aggressively.

“Fuck” he mumbled.

“Language.”

That put a small smile on his face despite everything.

~*~

“What’s weighing on you?” Ned asked as he joined her in the bed.

“Nothing” she responded simply. “Just tired.”

Internally she sighed. She had believed she had been doing so well with pretending like nothing had happened.

“Really?”

He had a way of looking at people as if he saw right through them. Catelyn knew he didn’t, he wasn’t insanely good at reading people. He just had a way of making it seem like it. He made people nervous. Not her, not anymore. But then and there she felt it.

She put her phone on her nightstand and moved closer to him, let him wrap his arms around her. She settled with her head on his shoulder, putting her hand above his heart so that she could feel his heartbeat against her palm. It was calming.

“Yeah, really. Kids are a handful now when I’m used to peace and quiet.”

She would never grow used to the peace and quiet.

Ned turned his head and pressed his face against her temple, burying his face in her hair.

“For some reason I don’t believe that” he mumbled.

He knew her too well after thirty years together.

Maybe it was better to let him know, too. It wasn’t like there had actually been a problem, he was Robb’s biological father. Even as Robb hadn’t wanted him to be aware about his concerns it had to with him.

“Lyanna-said-something-to-Robb-last-week-that-made-him-question-if-you-really-were-his-biological-father.”

She spoke so quickly that the sentence became a single long word. She hadn’t planned to, it had just come out that way.

The silence that followed seemed to last an eternity.

“What?”

Ned pulled away from her slightly, just enough to be able to look at her. His frown told her that he hadn’t understood a word of what she had said.

Catelyn took a deep breath, forced herself to calm down a little.

“When Lyanna got shitfaced last week she said something to Robb that made him question if you really were his biological father.”

That time the words didn’t blend together, she sounded completely understandable. At least to herself.

“What did she say?” Ned asked, his voice a little cooler than it had been before.

He was still frowning, but he no longer looked as confused.

“I don’t know exactly, but it was something that made him aware of how… close the end of my relationship with Brandon was to the beginning of my relationship with you. And since we, skilled as we are, managed to make ourselves a kid first try without trying, he wondered if there was any possibility of that he was actually Brandon’s.”

Ned sighed. A long, deep, Stark signature sigh. He did it so well. Even better than all the rest of them.

“Lyanna and her big mouth” he said afterwards. “I’ll have to talk to her about that, it’s none of her business. What did you say to Robb?”

There was no lack of annoyance in his words.

“I told him the truth. That we did a paternity test and that you were confirmed to be his father. What else was there to say?”

“Don’t know. Gods, I hate all of this.”

The shame that washed over her could not be denied. It was all her fault. She was the common factor.

“I’m sorry.”

“I don’t blame you. It isn’t just your fault, I was a part of it too.”

“It’s just that sometimes you wish Brandon didn’t know me before you did?”

“I never would have known you if it wasn’t for Brandon. It had to happen this way.”

There was something sweet in that way of thinking of it. That the way it started couldn’t have been so bad because it led them to something so good.

“I wouldn’t have been here, I wouldn’t have had you and the kids and the grandkids” he continued. “But I do wish I had known you first.”

“If it helps I also wish I had known you first, it would have been easier.”

He leaned closer to her and kissed her.

“We can’t change what happened” he then said. “But we can be happy now.”

[strangesmallbard]

i don’t think i’d write the au but i do think about how girl!jon would go a lot. so much would change re: gender roles and characterization. for example, i don’t think girl!jon would have the chance to learn swordplay. she might be interested, but she would contend with an entire new set of expectations, especially with the type of prejudice bastard girls face in westeros.

girl!jon’s relationship with catelyn would change the most, as catelyn would have some control over her education and daily life. cat wouldn’t see her as a threat to robb’s claim, but she would still resent her for ned’s actions. however, i don’t think she’d be cruel towards a bastard daughter—honestly she wasn’t outright cruel to canon jon most of the time, just very cold and distant—instead, i think she’d treat her somewhere between an attending lady and a servant.

she’d also expect girl!jon to model proper womanhood for sansa and arya—and become prepared to marry so she can leave winterfell sooner rather than later. this could cause an interesting internal conflict between her true ambitions/desires and a desire to please catelyn, who is the only mother figure she’s ever known. (similar to canon jon’s pull between his oaths and desires). as a result, i can also see her being closer to sansa than arya, at least on the surface. i think she’d still feel an affinity for arya, but knows she shouldn’t encourage her gender-nonconformity.

the biggest change, however, is that jon doesn’t join the night’s watch. my sense is she’d join bran’s arc before becoming separated in the far north, then accidentally join the wildlings during their march on the wall. i’m also really compelled by girl!jon’s dynamic with catelyn in this au, so i think it’d be interesting if she joined her at riverrun. i could see them developing a codependent grief bond—catelyn lost ned and thinks arya could be dead, and jon looks like both of them. jon, meanwhile, wants catelyn’s approval so so badly and is similarly grieving.

re: ned, i think his relationship with girl!jon is affectionate, yet more distant than canon due to their different daily lives. i do wonder if a girl!jon who looks just like lyanna might haunt ned more then arya, who has more distance. i’d like to believe girl!jon is still close to robb and bran, albeit very differently than in canon. robb and girl!jon still played together as the only children in winterfell for a while, and that’d have an impact.

[sowthetide]

GREETINGS AND SALUTATIONS this is teainabowl AND IM BACK WITH MORE NONSENSE AS PROMISED. family crisis almost averted?? i havent slept in 2 days but lmao who cares. (you cant see me rn but i want you to know that im doing a happy little jump skip dance as im writing this)

BECAUSE!!!!! ok. lets talk about genderbending in fandom. i think what usually gives me the ick in those fics is they do nature vs nurture wrong??? like a lot of the time they’ll just change the NATURE of the character and use the different gender as an excuse which. idk idk it runs me the wrong way. BUT QUENN!!! shes very much still theon?? just, nurtured differently. am i making sense? i have been traumatized by some bio-essentialism bs in the past when trying to look into similar fics bc i love gender fuckery PEOPLE JUST DONT GET IT LIKE I DO (or you, appearantly hkdhhfjh i love your story it means so much to me) 

and asoiaf is SUCH a gendered world??? like it has so much untapped potential where even a single characters gender can have SO MUCH IMPACT (can you imagine if joffrey had been a girl?? or if sansa had been a boy???) 

but what originally started my spiel was the realization that jon wouldnt have gone to the nights watch if he was a girl. and. what then?? slightly horrifying tbh, and makes me wonder if one of the other character had been male (read; they had been given more agency and autonomy in their lives) what would have changed???

but back to jon, bc then i immediately thought, ok, lets backtrack a bit, who would jon even BE. bc a lot of jons character revolves around his (lack of) a relationship with catelyn, his siblings mother. but she would have a harder time avoiding him if he was a she, right?? am i making sense???? a girl isnt seen like as much of a threat to her children i thinks?? idk i love cat and jon so much a love picking apart their relationship bc bc bc ARGHhhgg yk? also i like to think of ned being haunted by lyannas carbon copy who happens to be great with swords (would he be permitted to practice swordplay??) idk

ANYWAYS no we come to the part where i tie it up to what you mentioned in your answer. bc as much as JON being a girl might change his relationship with cat, it would be much more fucked up if it were robb, me thinks. (i too am a bit guilty of using robb as an accessory to cat) but but but. are. are you seeing my vision. catelyn stark with her three daughters when ned leaves for the greyjoy rebellion. catelyn whos convinced that the reason her husband wont send his bastard away is because she cant give him any sons. in the books she calls bran her special little boy and. idk the double meaning this would give it. and bran!!! being the heir!!! hiw would that change things??? would the reception to his accident be different?? and speaking of, what about king robert and his obsession with joining his family with neds? i havent talked about how robb (robyn?) would be different in this au but i cant think hed be as pleased as sansa was? his first shown interaction with joff is him trying to curb stomp the fucker lmao. i dont think he would be likely to have a different opinion bc of gender changes. in the books hes often rash and impulsive and prideful, and id want him to keep those traits, but peoples reactions to them would be different?? and so he would shape them in different ways??? am i making sense i feel like im just rambling. this is getting way too long and wayy to incoherent i need to stop. ok bye for now ill be back (threatening)

GO TO BED!!!! GET SOME SLEEP!!!!! But yay! to family crisis averted? Maybe?

Okay. I'm gonna indulge in some haterism for a second cause I've actually poked around the ASOIAF genderbending tag quite a bit. Unfortunately, a lot of those fics? Lame as hell. There's a preponderance of genderbent Jon Snow, which I think is totally cool! Very interesting genderbend to explore because of how much it changes the trajectory of his story. But then the character isn't really written as Jon at all? Maybe I'm just picky about characterization, but oftentimes fem!Jon just becomes this cookie-cutter "strong/feisty" female protag and it's like...

Sorry. I'm being mean. Obviously, there is no singular "correct" take on a given character, as we're all influenced by our own experiences and perceptions. My take on Theon isn't the exact same as yours, or goddcoward's, or Ashen's, or GRRM's. A unique Theon exists in all our heads, each one a bit different from the others.

But! Genderbends are so much more fun when you can see the underpinnings of the character you know, and there are moments where those aspects really shine through. And it's like OH!!! (pointing vigorously) THERE THEY ARE!!!! Otherwise, why not just write an OC, or adopt a minor character with very little canon characterization? (Admittedly, this can become a problem when you start collecting minor characters like Pokemon cards. I am my own evidence of this phenomenon.) If it ain't Jon, then why have it be Jon at all, y'know?

ngl female Joffrey has been rattling around in my brain lately... 👀fem!Joffrey would definitely be betrothed to Robb, which would be a complete and utter shitshow (appreciative/affectionate). Joffrey as a true mini-Cersei has such insane juice to it as a story idea, especially considering that Joffrey never liked Cersei all that much lol... the mother-daughter dynamic would be BONKERS.

Back to Jon though:

First, you're definitely right that fem!Jon wouldn't be seen as much of a threat to her siblings as Jon was. She would probably be married off pretty quickly once she came of age, as high as possible for a woman who was bastard-born. I don't see Catelyn liking her per se, but Catelyn wouldn't have the same misgivings about her as she did about Jon. Since fem!Jon probably wouldn't become the vessel of the wildling/Others plot, she might have an interesting role to play if she went south... to marry Robert's royal bastard Edric Storm, perhaps? I could see Robert "having his Lyanna" by marrying fem!Jon and Edric. But then shit hits the fan with the usual plot of AGOT, and maybe fem!Jon gets taken hostage by the Lannisters in King's Landing? Or gets caught in Renly's shit since she was with Edric at Storm's End? I am NAWTTTT talking myself into writing another fic. Go to hell. I need to finish Sow the Tide first.

fem!Robb (Robyn between myself and goddcoward) is even crazier. Catelyn would NOT be fucking happy to have Ned's spitting image hanging around Winterfell, while all her sons are under 10 and have the Tully look. I could see Catelyn successfully arguing that Jon should be fostered out, perhaps in the Vale (as a favor on the part of Jon Arryn)? Like, oh, Ned, you and Robert became such good friends fostering together in the Vale... that way, Jon is waythefuckoverthere and can't make any allies in the north.

I'd love for Robyn to have some of the same anger and pride, and she'd probably be similar to Catelyn in that she was raised as the heir for a good bit of time before the "real" heir came along years later (Bran+Edmure). Also, Catelyn would absolutely NOT trust Theon around Robyn. Not At All. Kinda fair though? Robyn would also be older than Sansa was in AGOT, so I think she'd be at least a little bit more worldly and pick up on Joffrey's... Joffreyness. Robb/Robyn are still dutiful characters, but I think there would be a lot more immediate friction between her and her betrothed. Double genderbend Throbb is my true love, however (Quobyn my beloved).

I've gotta finally go work on chapter 40 now, so I can't answer everything, but do come back... I'll be here... revolving all of these genderbends around in my head...

[jackoshadows]

I think Catelyn is also biased towards the Tully look, given how she goes on about Sansa’s auburn hair and comments on her daughter’s beauty.

The characters who comment on Arya not being pretty like Sansa are Catelyn, Sansa and her friends and Theon Greyjoy. Arya mentions Ned and Jon calling her pretty.

I think that’s why Lyanna most likely did not have self-esteem issues. Ned tells 9 year old Arya that she looks like Lyanna and is pretty like her. And Ned would know what his younger sister Lyanna looked like growing up. Lyanna’s grandmother was Arya Flint of the mountain clans and her mother Lyarra Stark was a cousin of her father’s Rickard Stark.

So young Lyanna Stark looked like Arya - Bran mistakes Lyanna for Arya in one of his visions - and yet Lyanna did not grow up bullied for being ‘horse-faced’ or long faced and ‘ugly’. Her brothers clearly loved her and thought their little sister was pretty and Lyarra Stark and Arya Flint (if they were alive when Lyanna was a kid) - who most probably had the Stark features - would have thought Lyanna was pretty as well.

Once we get the Tully looking Starks in the next generation and now the Starks are considered to be plain or ugly because of their long face and hair colour. As Jon puts it:

Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.

or as Arya puts it:

Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near.

I think this entire thing about looks is because Cat and Sansa with their Tully looks (And Jeyne Poole who was most probably trying to suck up to Sansa by dragging Arya about her looks), the Septa from the South and Theon from the Iron Islands have different notions of beauty, which is where we get GRRM’s theme of Arya being a swan amongst ducks, the reference to the Ugly Duckling about which many metas have been written, some of them linked here and here.

Outside of the fact that she was bullied for her appearance, there's really nothing to suggest that Arya is ugly. Catelyn does say that she isn't as pretty as Sansa but the emphasis was on how messy she was from playing and her state of dress. Her remarks on Dacey Mormont ( who has a long face like Arya's at that) being pretty when she put on a dress instead of armor make it clear that she associates traditional feminity with beauty. She even tells Arya that she could be pretty if she weren't so messy and dressed properly.

The fact that this is such a debate in fandom when it's written plainly in the books is crazy to me, but I guess people just need this little girl with self-esteem issues to be ugly or they can't cope.

[atopvisenyashill]

How much would change if Jon, Sansa, and Arya were genderbent?

Interesting question partially because we don’t have a lot of precedent for what happens to bastard born noble girls. Boys can inherit if there’s no true born sons - Alyn of Hull becomes Alyn Velaryon at the behest of his (rumored) father Corlys, Bran suggests to Lord Hornwood's illegitimate son should inherit, Edric Storm is likely to inherit Storms End by the ending, etc. But the girls…so far as I can find we only have Jeyne Waters (but the Longwaters descend from Jon, not Jeyne), Ashara Dayne’s (maybe) daughter, and Sara Snow.

If Jon is a girl and Cat has nothing but true born boys, I imagine in some ways things get easier for the Starklings and harder. An illegitimate girl is not a threat to the claims of Catelyn’s children the way a boy may be but it also may mean a girl Jon is much lonelier. Her existence is still an insult to Catelyn, but Ned is not going to ask Catelyn to oversee and her tutelage. If she's taught by Septa Mordane it's going to suck because Septa Mordane is super classist & an all around terrible guardian. I think Ned's paranoia might be worse however; if girl!Jon (Jeyne?) decides she hates her lessons and wants to be with all her brothers, it might remind Ned just a bit too much of Lyanna training with all of her brothers. And even though they look alike, having a daughter running around with Lyanna's face is incredibly risky. I think all of that is likely to make Jon much more quiet, morose, and sour @ life although with the same sort of passion & ability to understand outsiders.

It's also a bit complicated because its not as easy to get rid of a girl than a boy short of a marriage match in the North - the Silent Sisters and the Septas follow the faith and I don't think Ned is letting Lyanna's daughter go there nor is he hurrying to engage her to anyone (because he's not hurrying to engage anyone to anyone). So when Robert comes North...perhaps Catelyn asks for Jeyne (Jon) to be fostered somewhere else or taken with the capital. Ned is never bringing her to the capital but he might send her to foster with Howland because it keeps her out of the way and safe. That means Sam probably never finds his footing with the Night's Watch which really puts into question whether they find out that dragonglass kills wights early on. Night's Watch is kind of screwed, haha.

I do think there’s a chance Robb & Jon/Jeyne have kind of a Cregan & Sara Snow relationship; close in age and a beloved sister who he feels protective over after their father has died. It's possible he keeps her out of the action but equally possible he uses her in a marriage match.

As for boy Sansa & Arya...Arya is just a wildly different person if she's a boy. Her penchant for caring about common folk and being "underfoot" can still exist but it's treated very different. She would have a much better relationship with Cat; similar to the way Bran is a lil feisty and that's why Cat loves him. Cat is not going to worry about if her rowdy boy will have a good life and marriage because Arya is third born. I imagine a boy Sansa is similar to Bran; dreaming of songs of knights and valor. There's also no royal matches for both of them; maybe Myrcella is engaged to Sansa but that's it. I don't think the genderswap is likely to impact the Arya/Jon relationship much; would be funny if Needle becomes a gift from Arya to Jon instead of from Jon to Arya as Jon goes away to foster with Howland. It will impact the Sansa/Arya relationship however; without the gendered aspects of Arya Doing Gender Wrong, they have less issues with each other. They're also not the only girls which means there's less pressure on them and less comparisons between them. Sansa and Arya together are probably more likely to get out of KL before Ned is killed because they've trained at fighting a bit more but at the same time, without Syrio Forell there to run interference, they might get captured anyway. That's where I deeply worry about them both; if Robb ransoms Jaime for Sansa and Arya it affects the whole war but if Joffrey decides "fuck it" and kills them too (because what does Littlefinger care to spare Catelyn's boys?) I think it's likely to make the war worse.

Anyways the answer is: it changes everything lol.

[commander-damneron]

My friend loaned my her copy of the world of ice and fire since she's selling it soon and I've been desperate to have a look through it for years (yes, I'm that nerd who lives for asoiaf lore) and talking myself through the family trees has given me the weirdest mental image of ned coming back after the war with baby jon, like:

Cat, holding robb: my husband, you have returned. While you were gone I had a son.

Ned, holding jon: oh, sweet, me too