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loregoddess · 5 months ago

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some general observations as I put together notes for analyzing the Octo1 characters weaknesses from the extra battle update to Octo2. Some minor spoilers for late-game stuff.

weaknesses are definitely mechanics-driven, every character has 3 weaknesses, except Primrose and Ophilia, who each only have 2 weaknesses, which is interesting since they're each the main "support" character for their respective teams, so it's apparently harder to hit and take out the support (and from what I've heard so far about Ophilia's battle kit, she is the one you wanna take out first which is SO funny considering that like, story-wise Ophilia is just the sweetest, even if she doesn't take shit from anyone)

the rest of the travelers being balanced at 3 weaknesses each (and having access to the secret jobs), makes me think the extra battle takes place in Octo1's post-game as well, as they'd be more experienced (less weaknesses) and also work together more cohesively as a team (hence why this extra battle is so hard, ignoring the fact that it's a special post-game bonus superboss-esque fight)

like what we see with the Octo2 characters' weaknesses, every character who uses long-ranged weapons has a weakness to a short-ranged weapon and vice versa. Daggers seem to be treated exclusively as long-ranged weapons, which makes for an even balance of 3 long- (polearms, bows, daggers) and 3 short-ranged (staffs, axes, swords) weapons. The fire-ice, lightning-wind, and light-dark weakness patterns are also consistent.

there's some fancy balancing with the weapon weaknesses again, every weapon is strong against at least 2 characters, with the exception of polearms which are only strong against 1 character (Therion), and daggers which are strong against 3 characters (Ophilia, Cyrus, and Alfyn)

likewise we have some interesting numbers for elemental weaknesses, as each element is strong against at least two characters except lightning and light, which are only strong against one character each

I'm assuming the balance of weaknesses is for battle mechanics balancing purposes, since it fairly equally spreads out the potential weaknesses (and the player is expected to be using secondary jobs and secret jobs at this point, and should theoretically be able to hit any weakness), but it is interesting that polearms, lightning, and light are unpopular choices for weaknesses

for character specific observations:

Ophilia is weak to daggers (ranged counter against her melee staff), and dark (counter to her light), which makes sense overall (her main antagonist was working in the shadows along assassins, so the dagger specifically makes sense as a weakness). Nothing too surprising about her except her lack of weaknesses (despite her kindness, she is incredibly capable and aware).

Cyrus has no elemental weaknesses (makes sense given his general mastery of elements, even if he's not a magic scholar specifically), and instead is weak to swords, daggers, and axes. The daggers make sense as the ranged counter to his melee staff, but swords and axes fill out the rest of the melee-ranged weapons for his weaknesses which is very interesting (and entirely opposite from Osvald's "ranged-weapons only" weakness set). But if we consider the fact that all of Cyrus's story's major beats occur with people close to him betraying him in some way (Therese telling a lie about him, Yvon kidnapping him, etc.), it does make sense that he would have a weakness to weapons a person would need to get close to him to use.

Tressa is weak to staffs to counter her ranged polearm and bow, as well as fire and lightning. The lightning makes sense, given that Tressa's main element is wind, but the fire is interesting. Tressa does live in a coastal village, so this could be the idea of fire being the natural opposite to water, the same way we see how Ochette (who lives on an island) is weak to fire.

Olberic's a fun enigma, because he's weak to axes, ice, and wind. As a warrior (master of arms), I'd expect him to have nothing but elemental weaknesses, similar to Hikari, but we don't see that here. Axes counter Olberic's ranged polearm, and wind is Erhardt's main element in CotC (Olberc also notably has access to lightning skills in CotC to allow the player a way to break an elemental weakness w/ Olberic, and as a tie-in to the fact that Olberic is Brand god of battle thunder's chosen traveler), so the wind weakness makes sense, albeit in a somewhat tragic way. The ice weakness is surprising though, especially given that both the Highlands and Hornburg are mountainous regions (high elevations tend to be chillier), but if I had to hazard a guess I'd say it has something to do with Olberic's burning passion to protect others (ice being the counter to fire).

[It should be noted that, in-game Erhardt is weak to swords, axes, ice, and dark, so Olberic and Erhardt share the axe and ice weaknesses (Erhardt is the "Blazing Blade" so the ice weakness isn't as surprising); swords probably exist as a weakness for mechanical purposes to ensure the player can break him during the forced fight in Olberic's Ch3, although dark is surprising--perhaps it hints at Erhardt's eventual heel-face turn?]

Primrose is weak to swords (to counter her ranged dagger) and light (to counter her dark), which more or less checks out with her narratively as well. Her quest for revenge requires her to live and operate in the shadows, and shining light on it would only show the truth of the violence of her quest. I was under the impression that Simeon stabs Primrose with a dagger at the end of her Ch3, but for all I know it was a sword, and even if it wasn't, some daggers are long enough to be considered short swords.

Alfyn is weak to daggers and bows (ranged counters to his melee axe), and fire (counter to his ice). It was interesting that polearms weren't amongst his weaknesses, given the whole situation with Miguel, but if we assume the extra battles take place in a hypothetical "post-game", maybe Alfyn's lack of weaknesses to polearms is testament to his character growth over the course of his story.

Therion is weak to polearms and bows (ranged counters to his melee sword, although it is interesting to note that this may be the only case when dagger is treated as a potential close-ranged weapon). The fact that he has only weaknesses to ranged weapons is consistent with his characterization--Therion won't let anyone get close enough to hurt him (emotionally) again, so the only way to hurt him is from afar. He's also weak to ice as a counter to his fire affinity, although this makes the fact that his final chapter takes place in a cold and bitter place rather symbolic (he must go into his weakness--the cold, and also trusting Heathcote--to fulfill his quest).

H'aanit is weak to staffs (melee counter to her ranged bow), and more interestingly to wind and dark. Wind makes sense, given that H'aanit's main element is lightning, but the dark is surprising, since unlike Castti (who also had a weakness to dark because of story events), we don't see H'aanit struggle against anything "dark" except Redeye, who she's entirely triumphant against. However it's interesting to note that in CotC, Z'aanta has access to light attacks, and given that he raised H'aanit, it's possible she has an affinity to light despite not having access to it as an elemental attack. Additionally, H'aanit works alongside Eliza closely during the events of her story, and Eliza also has access to light as her main element in CotC, making most of the characters H'aanit works closely with light-aligned.

[In addition to Z'aanta and Eliza, Alaic has a weakness to dark as well, either in connection to his backstory and/or because he too has an affinity for light--potentially. I don't have a good guide to all NPC's weaknesses for either of the games, so I can't go and double-check all of H'aanit's NPC weaknesses, but it is interesting that at least 3 of the major NPCs in her story either share her weakness to dark or are definitely linked with light.]

Again, no specific direction or point I'm trying to make with these notes, just jotting them down for the sake of thinking about game mechanics and characterization ties.

#octopath traveler #I want to put together another large post with diagrams for the weaknesses and stuff but hmm that will take time #also I need to go rewatch/reread the banters bc it's been a hot minute since I played the first game #H'aanit specifically was fun to think about here though bc when I first saw her dark weakness I was like ??#as if Z'aanta wasn't on my main team for CotC #Hornburg didn't train their knights to watch out for axes and ice apparently #not quite as many ''ah-ha!'' moments bc the weaknesses really seem to be set up to balancing the battle but still super interesting #oracle of lore

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fluffypotatey · 1 year ago

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*smashes in like the Kool-Aid man*

PENDRAGON SIBLINGS YOU SAY????

I have. So many Feels. About Themst™

The complexity?? The layers?? The angst?? Hello??????

Their relationship is just So Much, because you are right, it's all tangled up in miscommunication and missed opportunities, and so many problems that can be sourced back to Uther "War Crimes" Pendragon, who wouldn't know a healthy relationship if it bit him on the ass.

If Merlin and Arthur are two sides of the same coin, then Arthur and Morgana are edges of the same blade.

Because it's the lonely childhoods, the shared grief, the friendship, the vulnerability, the fondness, the teasing, the envy, the jealousy, the almost romance, the protectiveness, the betrayal, the loss, the hurt, the refusal to let go and the desperate hanging on, and the love, the love, the love.

Indifference is the true opposite of love.

Hate is love that's gone rotten.

“If Merlin and Arthur are two sides of the same coin, then Arthur and Morgana are edges of the same blade.” oh fuck….

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FUCK

WAIT HOLD ON WAIT LEMME PIGGYBACK ON THAT BESTIE @0hheytherebigbadwolf (tagging you bc it will be a couple days after you sent this ask)

(Also, for anyone wanting background context on what me and bestie are bouncing off on: voilà)

OK OK SO

we are all familiar with King Uther being the greatest (worst) dad of all time, correct? places such high expectations on his “only son and heir” whilst never officially acknowledging Morgana as his daughter until the very end?

F+ father of the year :)

he is not above sending his children into the dungeon if they disobey him as seen here:

(Jfc he even put Morgana in chains like wtf)

also, he is not above using emotional guilt towards them when he deems it necessary (aka one of the only times he actually acknowledges them as his children)

UTHER (1x02 Valiant) I trust you will make me proud.

UTHER (1x08 The Beginning of the End) I’ve treated you like a daughter. Is this how you repay me?

UTHER (1x12 To Kill the King) You are the daughter I never had.

UTHER (2x08 Sins of the Father) You would believe a sorcerer’s lies over the word of your father?

not to mention that when Arthur or Morgana try to reason with him or argue with him since they are the only ones with the status to do so, he pulls rank

UTHER (1x12 To Kill the King) May I remind you that you are speaking to your King [...] Take care, child, or I’ll have you restrained.

UTHER (2x08 Sins of the Father) I am your king and your father. You will show me some respect!

UTHER (2x06 Beauty and the Beast) We live in dangerous times, I cannot allow you to undermine my authority.

UTHER (3x10 Queen of Hearts) You have caused this to happen, Arthur. My decision is final.

ngl i could include more but i have already spent hours searching for shit (YOUTUBE WILL DIE BY MY HAND THAT STINGY BITC—) but y’all get what i mean: Uther is an abusive fucker and it has messed up the conditions of Arthur and Morgana

now, about the double edged blade…..

as previously established, Uther is a fucking dick and wants his children to obey him but also adore him. with this behavior, the Pendragon siblings react in two ways: with anger & contempt or submission and remorse

way #1

i’m gonna start with Morgana because anger is the easiest to pick out throughout the show. in the first episode of the first season, our introduction to Morgana’s character is her lecturing Uther about executing the man Merlin witnessed upon entering Camelot (such a warm welcome for Emrys, mh?)

MORGANA I just don't think chopping someone's head off is cause for a celebration. That poor mother. UTHER It was simple justice for what he'd done. MORGANA To whom? He practiced some magic, he didn't hurt anyone. UTHER You were not around twenty years ago, you have no idea what it was like. MORGANA How long are you going to keep punishing people for what happened then?

early on, it is easy to pick up on Morgana’s resentment and anger at Uther, who she believes is blinded by his fear of magic and his need for control (which she isn’t wrong about). also, we find that she isn’t one to back off when poking the bear (Uther). she does it constantly in seasons 1 & 2

MORGANA (1x03 Mark of Nimueh) Why would she kneel on a cold stone floor morning after morning when she could make these things happen with a snap of her fingers? Like an idle king!

MORGANA (1x08 The Beginning of the End) How can this child be your enemy? He's just a boy. UTHER He is a Druid. MORGANA Is that such a crime?…What have these people done to you? Why are you so full of hate?

UTHER (2x04 Lancelot and Guinevere) How many men would you have me sacrifice to save a servant? MORGANA As many as it takes!

to be honest, i wouldn’t be surprised if screaming, arguing and berating Uther about his morals and ethics is her way of proving that she is not weak or submissive to his actions. i mean, Morgana grew up in a household the complete opposite from her time in Camelot. Gorlois, the man whom Morgana considers to be her father and one and only family member, was said to be “just” and “kind” and someone that Uther even considered a good friend who openly kept him in check. Morgana, until the age of ten, understood parental love and empathy unlike Arthur, who spent his whole life without any good or healthy substance of it.

the culture of Camelot and Uther’s wrath is not something Morgana was ever able to fully acclimate to as Uther himself pointed out in 1x12. She “was at odds with [him] since the beginning” and could never picture herself as a Pendragon (point further proven in 4x05: she looked revolted when Queen Annis compared her to Uther) because she didn’t share in their idea of magic = evil and a king = absolute control.

ironic in terms of future plot events, isn’t it :’)

way #2

compare that to Arthur: man’s respressed af. keeps all his emotions under lock and key if they are anything but haughty and serious. y’all, Arthur even says it himself how he “[can't] disagree with Father [Uther] in public.” whenever Arthur finds himself at odds with Uther, he holds his tongue and waits until he can disobey secretly (2x05 when he leaves to rescue Gwen, 1x08 when he helps Morgana sneak out Mordred in the dark of the night, 2x08 when he sneaks out to meet Morgause for more info about his mom, etc). it is only the rare moments when Arthur feels impassioned enough to speak up without fearing any retribution does Arthur talk back at him (so satisfying 👌)

ARTHUR (1x03 Mark of Nimueh) [Morgana’s] right, Father. You hear the word magic, you no longer listen.

ARTHUR (2x08 Sins of the Father) This is what fuels your hatred for those who practice magic. Rather than blame yourself for what you did, you blame them….You hunted her kind like animals! How many hundreds have you condemned to death to ease your guilt?!….You speak of honour and nobility! You're nothing but a hypocrite and a liar!

ARTHUR (3x10 Queen of Hearts) You can't forbid my feelings any more than I can. I won't deny them any longer, I love her. I love Guinevere.

we can even compare how the two react to Uther’s violence towards them

(ahahahahahaaaaa what a wonderful dad)

on the left, you see Arthur’s face right when Uther crushes the morteus flower needed to heal Merlin (his manservant/friend/????) and on the right, is Morgana after Uther discovers she was harboring a Druid child in her chambers and she refuses to listen to his reason.

notice how both faces are remarkably similar 👀

however, Arthur’s look of shock and dismay come from his hope that Uther would do the right thing. that he would help save Merlin’s life from dying of poison. that he wouldn’t use this as a method to teach Arthur “what it means to disobey and cross the king.” he truly did hope, just like he always does with the people he holds close. Arthur cannot help but hope and trust that those close to him will not betray him and yet so many do. hence the remorse

looking at Morgana, her shock comes from the fact that this might be the first time Uther reacted to her words and actions in a physical manner. my suspicion is that most of the time, all Morgana previously got was Uther reprimanding her and yelling at her to stop questioning his methods (bc, let’s be real, she was the favorite child.) never has he lifted a finder on her like Arthur and i have proof (cue transcript!)

AND! and, Arthur is constantly warning Morgana about not angering Uther any further because of the consequences she might face (consequences this boy is very familiar with) when Uther deems it necessary to “teach” his children obedience.

UTHER (1x04 The Poisoned Chalice) You have to learn there's a right and a wrong way of doing things. I'll see you're let out in a week. Then you can find yourself another servant.

UTHER (3x10 Queen of Hearts) You have caused this to happen, Arthur. My decision is final [...] This is for your own good. - UTHER She will die. The enchantment will be broken. You'll see I was right.

UTHER (2x08 Sins of the Father) I am protecting you from your own foolishness!

so educational 🥰 but see, because Uther presents his punishments as lessons, Arthur himself views them as just a fucked up but meaningful way of his father’s concern because “yeah, I am the first born son and only heir to the throne. of course I need to learn not to do silly things like disobey, talk back to him, be my own person.” <- I’m paraphrasing here

Arthur does and has never seen a way out of the life thrust upon him by Uther (see 3x06). succeeding Uther as king, marrying a noblewoman of high standing for heirs and alliance strength was always expected of him. Arthur never saw a way out of this. even when he and Gwen were in their secret relationship phase, Arthur had to remind himself that this would never last. he loved her and knew she loved him, but there was always that reminder (that sounded a lot like Uther) in the back of his head telling him that it would never last so long as he was prince. he had a duty (constructed by Uther) to serve Camelot and going against his father would mean (in his eyes) that he is going against Camelot (as Uther always presented it to be).

so unlike Morgana, he did not kick and scream but stood firm because that was what he believed was stronger. if he stayed in his lane and did his part, then he would be a good king, maybe even a better one than his father, for Camelot. however, the show proves that differentiating himself from Uther actually made him the better king and more respected, but this is not the meta for that. I am getting side tracked.

OK: so we’ve established parental issues between the two siblings. now onto their very complex, complicated yet beloved dynamic

sO, as i mentioned in this post (because i am lazy and too tired to copy/paste the evidence from there), these siblings do care for one another. they just go about it in the most hilarious and repressed and in-denial way (hilarious to me 😤)

when we meet them, it’s established that these two have known each other for some time. enough for them to bicker and have banter, you know, as you do with a Pendragon. also, should add, neither character are ever aware they are blood-related until s3 (because of some weak-ass bitch named Uther), so you have that very, uh, interesting subplot in s1 that everybody forgets about until you rewatch it. (honestly, I have so many questions. number 1: why???? number 2: it’s only in s1—was it scrapped??? is it like it never existed???? what was its purpose to the plot??? bbc explain yourself—)

however, despite how much it is shown that they do care for one another, they’re relationship in s1 is still undefined and vague as if they also don’t know how to accurately define what the other means to them. it’s very similar to the whole “i really love this person so much but is what i’m feeling platonic, familial, or romantic?” because….you know, guy and girl besties who are close are typically expected to grow romantic feelings for each other, so tbh i would not be surprised if both mistook their love as romantically inclined in the beginning bc, reminder, neither of them were aware they were siblings until much later.

[and this is ALL i am saying on this subplot. i do not want to cause any negative discourse, so if anyone has a few choice words about it, either keep it to yourself or feel free to talk about it with people you know. personally? not a fan of the ship and never will be, but i am not here to post about that.]

anyway, have some featured receipts showing Arthur and Morgana slipping up and showing how much they care for each other.

SEE!!!! LOOK AT HOW THE CARE!!!! SEE HOW THEY WORRY FOR THE OTHER AND WISH TO PROTECT THEM FROM HARM!!! (and see how even when they’re on opposite sides there is still that same love. just more warped and corrupted T^T)

^worried/protective Morgana

^Arthur’s face after Merlin informs him that there’s an intruder heading to Morgana’s chambers

Morgana is very aware of Arthur’s trusting nature. Arthur is very aware of Morgana’s empathy and righteous nature. they understand each other so well which is why Morgana knew just how to harm Arthur in later seasons and why Morgana’s betrayal hit Arthur so hard. it’s also why he never stopped trying to reach out to her in s4 & s5. as @merlinemrys said in this lovely post, the show’s driving force is love. love of all kinds. whatever conflict it is, love is there at the center of it all and, in Arthur and Morgana’s case, it does not save them (just like how love does not save Merlin or Arthur from what lies ahead, as the op of the post pointed out).

that is what makes their relationship/love be like a double edged sword!! that is why they are edges of the same blade!!! they protect and fight for what they believe in and for the people they love, but the same blades cut deep and twist their wounds into a lasting scar.

it is because of Arthur’s love for Morgana that he cannot help but hope and mourn the woman he once knew. it is because of Morgana’s love for Arthur that her feelings of hatred are so strong and ugly.

like honestly,

look at them T^T compared to before

their relationship is so tragic T^T because we knew them before it all went wrong. we knew they cared and understood each other. we knew that for some time, they only had each other to rely on for a friend, a crutch, a breather for when the royal life was too much. both of them were fighters and strive to honor their values. both of them had once leaned on the other for support, had wanted nothing but happiness for each other.

fuck, they didn’t even get the chance to really be siblings because they found out too late, and by then Morgana was on a war path and Arthur only found out at the last minute.

like fuck, man

two sides of the same blade: forged with love, yet used for blood

screencaps brought to you by me, @sourdough-morbread, and farfarawaysite

#i will spare you the gorey details of me trying to fine decent screencaps & screenshots for this fucking post or else i’ll get pissed again #(i am considering whether it is worth it to go to war with youtube)#special thanks to my bestie mor for being there for me at the gorey times and helping me find more screenshots #fucking love you bestie 💕💕💕💕#also only including s1-2 bc i am tired and they are the ones where we get pendragon siblings not trying to kill each other #forgive me for always bringing up uther and the pendragon sibs’ upbringing with him it will happen again #also after hours of rereading transcripts and rewatching clips of bbc merlin: it is so obvious that uther cared and treated Morgana like hi #own child more than Arthur. like jfc he let’s her get away with so much stuff he is way for gentle with his words towards her #when he realizes that he was too cruel or rude like bro…..where tf was that for arthur #it just adds to the complicated sibling dynamic because there is the added jealousy and resentment of knowing a parent loved another more #literally most of Morgana’s time with Uther was her at odds with him and yet he views her as his child more #well no ducking dur that Arthur ‘i-would-do-anything-to-receive-my-father’s-love-attention-and-pride’ Pendragon resents Morgana for #always being the one Uther goes easier on and finds ways to turn a blind eye for like wtf #also during my research i was reminded of how done dirty Gwen’s story was by bbc #loses her father to a king fearful of magic barely gets to mourn him bc she now has to keep up the smithy and her maid job; reunites #with her brother who’s been AWOL for some years and still they don’t get a moment to talk about their dad and mourn TOGETHER #her storyline is pushed aside by s4 bc now she’s fulfilling the role of Arthur’s love interest and oh yeah they still need to incorporate #the lanceot/guinevere scandal and then banish her for some episodes without even letting her brother be mad about it like ?????#anyway #continued saga of fluffy rereading transcripts -> uther: ‘it’s been a long time since Ygraine…since anyone’ me: ducking liar >:(#[sir leon begins the slow clap] king you dropped this 👑IT IS 1AM HELP 😂#place your bets on where my laziness for evidence came in! (I honestly don’t know lol scavenging evidence is all a blur)#spent 2 days on this post lol #me: ok i think that’s enough evidence for this argument…………ok maybe ONE more won’t hur—#me after day 2: ….am i done???? am i free????#pendragon siblings coming behind me with a steel chair: nah mate!#me: FUCK THERE’S MORE #bbc merlin #merlin meta #pendragon sibs

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