#replacement and to basically go 'you're all stupid and we're going to die' for comic relief according to james marsters in his interview

[oveliagirlhaditright]

I feel like you can't really say that Angel is uninteresting, when you haven't seen his own show and therefore have only scratched the surface of his character. But that's your point of view and right, so I can't fault you for it, either.

I completely disagree about the Angel and Spike stuff, personally. Though I'll admit that I've sort of been becoming anti-Spike some lately, so that's surely coloring my perspective here.

But here's my perspective on it all (though if you don't want to see any negative looks at Spike, you might want to stop reading now):

With the whole "a soul was forced on Angel" thing "and Spike chose to fight for one," I feel that that's not really a fair argument. In Angel's case, I feel it's more what he chose to do with it after he got it. I mean, yeah: he didn't choose it. But neither did Buffy choose to be the Slayer. But when they were both forced into these positions they didn't want, they then chose to make the most of it and be heroes. And that says a lot about them. This is even an intentional parallel between Buffy and Angel that ties them together.

As for the Spike choosing to get a soul thing... a large part of me feels like he did so for selfish reasons: So Buffy would then have to forgive him for the attempted rape thing, and quite possibly finally love him. Since the main thing she could never get around with him was that he didn't have a soul.

Like, these comic panels kind of confirm my belief that Spike went to get his soul to try and win Buffy, not for any moral reasons. At least partly. And it also strongly makes it seem like he was trying to copy Angel. Maybe in thinking that Buffy loved Angel more/truly loved Angel? And that if he was more like Angel, she might actually go for him? IDK. (Edit: Though in Spike's defense in the above panels, he is drunk there.)

And then when Spike does get his soul... I mean, he does do good with it, yeah. He helps with the daily battles and apocalypses. But it's nothing he's really driven to do. It's not something he really cares about, like it is for Buffy and Angel.

Furthermore, Angel is always haunted by and trying to make up for all the deaths that he caused in the past... and Spike just isn't?

When his soul is first returned to him, he does feel awful about it those weeks he's in that basement. And he even tries to rip his soul out, so he no longer has to feel the torment for his sins. There's also when Spike realizes that he can be possessed by the First, that he's trying to convince Buffy to kill him--because he realizes what a danger he can be and that Buffy has never met the real soulless him... but then that all just disappears. (And if I'm being honest, I feel like even what we got there probably isn't as severe as it could've been/should've been. And it's nothing at all like it was for Angel. As Angel says in Angel the series, "I spend a hundred years tryin' to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent three weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine.")

In Angel season five, Angel and Spike somehow get into some sort of argument about Angel's past sins (or perhaps both of their past sins together), and Angel finishes the conversation off by saying something like, "and I'm paying for it every day." And then Spike replies with something like, "And you should stop with that, mate. You're starting to look haggard." (Clearly, he's not worrying about any of that at all.) This episode does end with Spike starting to care (or to care again. Because he was caring in season seven, but then it went away, when he went to Angel season five), when the team loses Fred (someone that Spike had come to care greatly about), and we get this quote from him, "...For a demon, I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush, I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims." And I love this quote a ton. It's just a wonderfully written one, overall and James Marsters plays it beautifully. And I adore that he is starting to look back here (again?) and think about all of this. But it does show us that until here, he didn't

But, once again... when we get into the comics, he doesn't ponder this stuff. At all.

And he absolutely should be! Because Spike is the second most sadistic vampire to ever walk the Earth, after Angelus. Something both the fans and the writers often forget. If Angel needs to be thinking about his past victims and making amends, Spike most definitely needs to be, too!

Which is why I really appreciated when in Kendare Blake's "In Every Generation" book, this one demon (who's actually good? And helping Willow's daughter, who's the new Slayer) challenges Watcher!Spike (who's still a vampire) about something he said--and his whole attitude--by saying, "And just because you have a soul now, that automatically makes you good and no longer accountable for your past sins?" To which Spike sobers up and feels a lot of remorse for his past actions and says, "No, it doesn't." Like, jeez. Why do I think this book written AGES after the show--by someone who's not a show writer!--with this one line is getting into things with souled-Spike the show definitely should have; and even doing some better work with him than they did?

Though I do understand that some of this stuff with Spike probably happened to keep from turning Angel and Spike completely into the same character. Like, I guess after James Marsters heard that Spike was going to get a soul, he came to Joss all excited about it, with ideas for a show for him and apparently Joss just looked at James and said, "And what will we call this show, James? 'Angel?'"

But with all that being said... the way they handled Spike once he got a soul, I can't help feeling Angel's the better person.

Like, I see it like this: Human Spike versus human Angel? Spike's the better person, for sure Angelus vs. Spike? Spike's the better person, hands-down. Chipped Spike vs. Angel? This one's a little tricky... but I'm saying Angel's better, for some of the things I said above. And because chipped Spike tried to rape Buffy. And the narrative tries to tell us things like, "If Spike didn't have the chip in his head, he'd be out hunting humans," even though Spike is starting to become great here and undergoing monumental growth. Souled Angel vs. Souled Spike? Souled Angel is better than Souled Spike to me for all the things previously mentioned. -shrugs- But that's just my personal opinion.

You know... I've often been wondering lately if part of the reason for Angelus' name change from Angelus to Angel when he goes from evil to good is partly inspired by the Bible (and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else discuss this. I think the closest I've seen is this really amazing fic I read on fanfiction, that explores the emotional upheaval and whole journey Angelus/Angel went through first ensouled, that was very much Biblically themed, and ended with him realizing that the old must pass away and "another story must begin," to quote Les Mis here; and him then coming up with his new name. But it didn't go as far as to tying in the Biblical name changes).

Because while the creator of the series, Joss Whedon, is atheist and both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series definitely have atheist themes, there are for sure Christianity ties going on with Angel's character. I mean, duh. Look no further than what his name is.

But for those who don't know... a number of times in the Bible, people are renamed (quite a few times something similar to the name that they already had--like Abram becoming Abraham or his wife Sarai being renamed Sarah--not unlike Angelus being altered to Angel). And often times it is after that person has undergone a huge transformation. And the name change is almost as if to truly add to that--as if to say, "you really aren't that person you once were anymore." (I guess I should also note that it's not only in the Bible that this happens, but the Abrahamic faiths in general. But since I think that it's really Christianity that the writers were writing about with Angel's character, that's what I'm focusing on here.)

But evidence that Christianity--or perhaps faith in general--is central to Angel's character, of course: Angel--Liam, actually--as he was known back then, was born in Galway, Ireland in 1727. And the area at the time was largely Catholic, I do believe. And Liam, no differently, was from a very Catholic family. But he couldn't live up to his family's expectations--and was a huge disappointment to them (particularly his father)--as he was lazy, drank a lot, whored, etc. All of this culminated in him meeting Darla one night, who of course turned him. And with the rage he still felt towards his family, he ended up killing them all (his mother, father, and sister. Though this isn't really a surprise in the Buffyverse, as most newly turned vampires end up slaughtering their family members: probably for any grudges they might have against them, and because the family probably won't know you've been changed and you have easy access to them, and thus are easy first kills. I should also probably mention that for anyone reading this who might not know the Buffyverse, all vampires in this series have no souls). But the way he got an invitation into his house, is because his little sister invited him in, thinking he was the angel of her brother returned to them (because they had thought Liam died, as he'd been missing for days). And this is when he comes up with the idea to call himself Angelus. Can you say religious trauma?

Angelus eventually ends up siring someone named Penn--his first childe--who sort of obsesses over Angelus, and becomes a copycat killer of his. Way in the future (in the 2000s), when Angel is calling himself "Angel" and has a soul and is good--and is trying to make amends for all of his past crimes--Penn is in L.A., where Angel is and murdering people the way Angelus used to (because he learned his craft from Angelus and never changed his ways, nor had any desire to). After he brutally kills people, he carves crosses into their cheeks. Kate Lockley, a police detective trying to profile the killer, thinks that the suspect might be a religious fanatic. But Angel says that it's the opposite of that: that this is a mockery of God. This also tells us, of course, what Angelus himself was thinking when he was doing these things himself. And perhaps another reason why he chose the name Angelus.

But despite all of this, despite Liam/Angelus/Angel in whichever incarnation he's in clearly having religious trauma, it's clear that he actually still holds to some Catholic beliefs. It's an interesting case. He definitely believes in God--and in the comics, Xander (finally trying to offer an olive branch to Angel) mentions how therapy has actually helped him out a lot, since he's had repressed anger over the years that he didn't know how to deal with and is now figuring it out, and that Angel should maybe try that; but Angel says that he would rather go to church (not in a sarcastic way, but something that sounded like he actually wanted to do... even though it could potentially hurt him as a vampire, with the crosses there)--and with the soul, he tries to make amends and do what is deemed right there. And he's looking for redemption and forgiveness, however you want to look at that, which could be in a religious sense or perhaps not. (Also, it's definitely hinted at that one of the reasons that he didn't just kill himself after regaining his soul, so he wouldn't have to suffer the torment of dealing with the guilt of all the horrific stuff he'd done for more than a hundred years, was because he believed people who committed suicide went to Hell, and he didn't want to go to Hell.)

But at the same time, Angel will say things like, "I never had much love for preachers," after decking an evil one in the face and coming to Buffy's rescue there. It's very interesting.

Angel's journey and relationship with all of this is interesting.

He himself is very interesting.

Edit: I don't know if I got across the point I'm trying to make here. It's like this: as Angelus, circumstances beforehand had led him to be very anti-religion (and that's putting it lightly) and he showed his hate by it with his name and by mocking God in the way he went about his murders. But then when he got his soul, he was no longer atheist at all. And really, probably never had been. And all of a sudden, it's like, "What have I done? Sweet Jesus, what have I done?" to steal another quote from Jean Valjean's Soliloquy from the Les Mis musical. And he begins drowning. But when he eventually surfaces and realizes he needs to try and aim for accountability and change himself (including his name), he does so in the way the saints themselves did, in how they changed their names: the saints he's probably now trying to be like himself.

Does that make sense? Man, I really hope I managed to get everything across that time, but I'm still not sure.