#repcom discussion

[thelightismine]

having recently re-read the Republic Commando books for the fiftieth time (but the first time as a proper adult), amongst many other things that jumped out at me this time, I've been pondering the Many Failings of Kal Skirata™ - and one thing that kept me awake the other night was the realisation that...it takes Kal ages between adopting Ordo and the rest of his brothers, right??

So I went back and did the math. Kal adopts Ordo in True Colours, soon after rescuing Vau on Mygeeto, at 471 days after the Battle of Geonosis (ABG). An excerpt from the scene below:

"I never adopted you formally," Skirata said. It had been bothering him in recent days, ever since he began to think of the war as having a definite timescale. "Any of you." "Does that matter?" Skirata now felt that it did. No Mando'ad would nitpick over the bond between him and his boys, and as far as the Republic was concerned clones didn't even qualify as people, but his plans to give them a decent future had now become very, very specific. [...] "Yes," he said. He reached to grasp Ordo's hand and recited the short, no-frills gai bal manda - "name and soul," all it took to unpick history and give a child a new parentage. Mandalorians were habitual adopters. Bloodlines were just medical detail. "Ni kyr'tayl gai sa'ad, Ordo." Ordo stared at their clasped hands for a moment. He had a crushing grip. "I've been your son since the day you first saved my life, Buir." "I think you boys did the saving," Skirata said. "I don't want to imagine where I'd be without you." Skirata was now busy hating himself for not doing this before, not making the ultimate commitment, and he fretted about his five other Nulls scattered around the galaxy.

And having re-read this section in detail, it now baffles me even further that it takes him - wait for it - ANOTHER YEAR AND ~THREE MONTHS to adopt the other five Nulls??

Yes, that's correct. Kal adopts the other five Nulls in Order 66, in the scene where they all come together 'on screen' for the first time, which is set 940 days ABG. That is 469 days after he formally adopted Ordo.

At the time KT wrote these books, according to Legends, one standard year is 368 days, with 12 months of 30 days each. If I've crunched correctly, Kal adopts the other five Nulls roughly fifteen and a half months later than Ordo.

And OHHHH:

The meal was as much a rare celebration as a meeting, and the Nulls even had a few glasses of Chandrilan wine. "I should have done this many years ago, adi'ke." Skirata raised his glass. "Ni kyr'tayl gai sa'ad - Mereel, Jaing, Kom'rk, A'den, Prudii. There. It's formal, legal. You're my sons and heirs." "And we won't bankrupt you," Jaing muttered. "Not with the amount you're skimming, ner vod," Mereel said raising his glass in return. "Thank you, Buir'ika. An honor." At least one cause for guilt had been lifted from Ordo's shoulders. He was no longer the only Null formally adopted by Skirata. It was a legal detail, nothing more, but Ordo didn't want to be singled out as the favorite. He already felt he had a far easier time than his brothers.

what do you MEAN you just went on and forgot to do it, despite seeing them and speaking to them regularly for over a year, Kal?! yikes

Reading this back again, all I could think was - poor Ordo. It's explicitly stated here that he had been feeling and still feels guilty. Imagine living with the knowledge that your father had only formally adopted you, and not the other five of your closest brothers, for OVER A YEAR- (I will keep yelling it I'm not over it)

When they all make jokes about him being the Number One Son. When they all tease him for being the favourite. How do you think this knowledge affected Ordo’s relationship with his brothers?? Not wanting to mention it?? Do you think he ever did?? How do you think they reacted if they knew he was already adopted prior to this??

Not to mention, how does Kal not see this as something that might cause an issue for Ordo?? With how much he loves him??

I find their reactions interesting, because if they didn't know, they play it very cool. I'm leaning towards they did know, Ordo didn't just sit on this knowledge for over a year, maybe couldn't - because otherwise, why is no one asking why Kal left him out of the list? Why is their only reaction calm pleasantries?

Possibly because they don't care about formal adoption that much - it's worth noting Ordo's reaction is also to kind of brush it all away: "I've been your son since the day you first saved my life, Buir."

(I think it also opens up a bigger discussion about Ordo's role within his brothers as...almost a shield between Kal and his brothers, able to take the brunt of Kal's...manipulations to spare them the same attention - I wonder if they don't care as much about their adoptive status because it doesn't mean nearly as much to them as it does to Kal, because Kal doesn't rule them as much as he'd like to think he does. It’s interesting how Ordo is both uncomfortable with the position as Number One Son but also sees its…strategic value?? He states earlier in the scene that he'll swap drafts with Kom'rk because it's "his turn" to explore the Outer Rim, but as far as we know, he never actually does this - despite missing each other dearly, often, do the other Nulls willingly take missions that get them away from Kal? Which is why Ordo is almost never shown being anywhere that Kal isn't? Also the irony that so many people laugh at Maze for being a highly trained ARC being "wasted" in an office job, but Ordo also as far as we see never does anything flashier, nothing that couldn't be handled by a less superior officer, nothing that's far from Kal's side...)

ANYWAY

I’m just baffled as to how Kal didn’t think immediately after adopting Ordo “and now the other five” - my man, what took you so long?? If you love them all as you say you do??

HMMMM

[cienie-isengardu]

My RepCom Musing: Vau about Skirata’s class-war rhetoric

Not much musing as collecting together the repeating detail about Vau and Skirata seen through the book series:

Republic Commando Triple Zero:

"He's a good lad. But he ought to be getting some sleep." He raked his hair with his fingers, yawning. "Fatigue affects your judgment."

"But not yours," Vau said quietly.

Skirata was alert in a heartbeat and swung his legs off the table onto the floor. Vau could wind him up as surely as a mechanical toy. "If I don't move fast enough when the shooting starts, that's my problem. I'm used to it."

"Yes, we all know." Vau turned to Etain. "This is normally where he starts lecturing me on his ghastly childhood as a starving war orphan living feral on some bomb site, and how I just ran away to become a mercenary because I was bored with my idle, rich family."

Republic Commando True Colors:

"Part of my inheritance," I say. "Father and I didn't agree on my career plans."

Justice for me; justice for the clone troops, used up and thrown away like flimsi napkins.

"The drinks are on you, then," says Boss, Delta's sergeant "If we'd known you were loaded, we'd have hit you up ear-lier."

"Was loaded. Cut off without a tin cred."

I've never told them about my family or my title. I think the only person I told was Kal, and then I got the full blast of his class-war rhetoric.

and

 "You liberated it for the lads? Walon, that's..."   

"I liberated it to cover my shebs," Vau said.   

Skirata nodded, suddenly unable to meet Vau's eyes any longer. "Of course you did."

"If the only items missing ... are from the Vau deposit box, then it narrows down the suspects." Vau reached out for the beaker and managed to get it to his lips. He spilled a lot of it, but that was okay. He was recovering fast. "Just made it look like good old-fashioned random thieving."

"Your dad couldn't touch you even if he did work out that you'd come back."

It was clearly one admission too far for Vau. He was definitely embarrassed, not angry. "Look, Kal, when you were surviving on dead borrats and gravel and playing the working-class martyr, did nobody teach you how to steal like a professional?"

Republic Commando Order 66:

“Now do you see? Do you?” Vau hissed the sibilant like escaping steam. Mird cowered on the floor, whining softly. “I’m sick to death of your sentimental twaddle about Jango betraying us by letting Kamino use his genes. He did it to stop the Jedi. He did it to create an army strong enough to bring them down. You drone on about the injustice of unelected elites, my little working-class hero-well, now they’re gone. Yes, it cost our boys’ lives, but the Jedi are gone, gone, gone. And they won’t be killing Mandalorians again, not for a long time. Maybe never.”

A) Kal has a strong opinion about social class injustices and dislike for elites (i.e. Jedi, nobles including Vau to some degree).

B) Vau and Skirata seemed to talk and/or argue a lot in that matter

C) Vau in Order 66 was done with Skirata’s rhetoric (and totally angry once Kal started helping Jedi in IC:501st)

[thesummerstorms]

About

Goes by Rev. She/her. Older than 21, younger than 30

Cis female. Grey-aromantic & asexual. Uses “queer” as a descriptor.

Exhausted educator from Texas, USA.

Fandom Interests: Mandos, WoH, SVSSS, MDZS, ST: DS9, ST: VOY, Leverage, PJO, mythology and fantasy gods, Etain Tur-Mukan, old SW EU content, The Good Place, Queer Sci Fi & Fantasy, RPGs and RPG elements, King Arthur, BioWare, FE3H, Pokemon (Switch Games),  DiscWorld, RepCom (formerly/in hibernation)

Trope Interests: high romance and devotion, found families, poly ships, competency kink, complex world building, the weight of empire, fake romance, prickly female leads, law-breaking good guys, lady knights with swords, political intrigue, murder mysteries, moral philosophy, the fae

Fandom Dislikes: Kal Skirata, Jiang Cheng, Madam Yu, the Church of Seiros, Kylo Ren

Avoided Tropes: grimdark, PWP, horror as a genre

Ships: Darman x Etain. Leverage OT3, LiuShen, WangXian, Percabeth, EliotxParkerxHardison

CW for: no tagging system, pro-choice, discussion of dark themes as they appear in works above including abuse, sexism, imperialism, etc.

[atelier-dayz]

So I'm guessing because you write about Galidraan, Jaster, and a bunch of other RepCom stuff that you read Karen Traviss's works. However, I'm curious what you think about Traviss herself, as she has a horrible tendency to demonize the Jedi (even her own OC Jedi...) and you are a pretty Jedi positive person. Personally I cannot stand Traviss and I was never able to stomach her works, but I was wondering what you think.

I actually wasn’t aware I wrote about RepComm stuff? Those books take place during Clone Wars, no? All but one of my fic deal with events pre-22BBY -- most of them even pre-32BBY. I haven’t gotten to writing fic set during the Clone Wars, since I want to at least finish watching TCW first. Which is a long way of saying I have not in fact read any of Traviss’s works unless you count the bit in Star Wars Insider #86, which basically just outlines Mandalorian culture -- and I guess her Mando’a dictionary. Otherwise, my knowledge of Mandalorians, their culture, and their history come from digging through Wookieepedia, meta written by more knowledgeable folk here on Tumblr, and scrounged from various fanfics. 

Since I haven’t read any of her books, I wasn’t aware Traviss wrote about Galidraan and Jaster and such in them? As far as I know, Galidraan first appeared in Jango Fett: Open Season but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong because I’m honestly still new to this fandom and when things came out in what order is so confusing at times. Anyways, that comic is where I get my knowledge of Galidraan and Jaster (in addition to fanfic and Wookieepedia.) I also get much of my background/characterization for Jango from that comic, the Bounty Hunter video game, the movies, and again, Wookieepedia.

As for Traviss and her work, pretty fresh into the fandom, I had been looking forward to reading the RepComm book to get more clone content, meet Kal (since I plan on writing him in Ben’bajur), and learn some of the details about Mandalorians in a more primary source...and then I found out how terribly anti-Jedi she was to the point of it reflecting in her work, which explains some of the very anti-Jedi sentiments I’ve seen in the clone/Mando side of the fandom. And if this interview is to believed, she is anti-Jedi to the point of applauding for their genocide. BIG YIKES. If that doesn’t say something about her character, then WHELP. (There’s also, I hear, a LOT of misogyny in the books, which is gross and makes NO SENSE with the fundamental setup of Mandalorian culture, which puts NO VALUE IN GENDER.) Needless to say, my enthusiasm in even starting the two books written by her that I’d initially bought (RepComm #1 and the Boba Fett e-novella) then plummeted. 

And based on the discussions about her and her work I’ve seen on here just recently and on Discord and on skimming through her Twitter, what I can conclude is that she is conservative, racist, transphobic, and an all-around terrible person. So again BIG YIKES. BIG NO TO HER. 

(It frickin’ sucks that she was responsible for the creation of a lot of the stuff we know about Mandalorians, and that her anti-Jedi sentiments influenced a lot of people in the clone/Mando side of the fandom. There are SO MANY cultural parallels worth exploring between the Mandalorians and the Jedi; they could have understood each other and got on well, which I LOVE exploring, but that’s a whole other topic that doesn’t belong here.)

Edit: HAVE NO DOUBT, I AM 100% PRO-JEDI/JEDI-POSITIVE. JEDI HATERS BEGONE PLEASE. Not sure why any might still be following my blog at this point. I don’t keep quiet about it.

[cienie-isengardu]

"I know we couldn't leave her in the asylum," Ruu said, "but did anyone think how the poor woman would feel about being surrounded by strange men in Mando armor?" "But we're not the Death Watch," Besany said. She'd fallen into the role of alpha female by virtue of being Ordo's wife. "We're not the ones who killed her family." - Imperial Commando: 501st

This quote is one of the reasons why the entire Republic Commando book series makes me so furious when I’m not focused on Vau, Mird, Deltas or Atin. The female characters, while having a lot of potential to develop, are ultimately not treated with respect by the narrative or even by some male characters, and it is not about an existing conflict of interest that has arisen between them. I mean the moments where Besany is described as Alpha Female (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean in alleged gender neutral mandalorian society) leading other women when men aren't around. Not because, as a former agent of the Republic Treasury Audit Division, she had the appropriate abilities to do so, such as keeping a cool head in difficult situations (established in TZ and TC), self-confidence or even ordinary kindness when she took someone under her wing, so that this person would feel accepted / safe in a new - not always friendly - environment (as in the case of Corr). Instead, she is called the Alpha Female and is the leader "by virtue of being Ordo's wife". Which, excuse me, is shitty reason as hell. Disrespectful toward her as a person and toward other women whose supposed role and worth is now based on their husbands' social hierarchy? Like what, Laseema wouldn’t be a good leader in times of need because Atin is not the favorite son of Skirata? Or Etain, if she survived, because of Darman’s position in Kal’s list of fav boys?  That is the logic of the narrative?

(I mean, there is a chance I'm reading it wrongly, and Besany simply felt she need take charge at what is happening as a way to help Ordo, as the gesture of sharing the burden of responsibility but the text doesn't frame it that way for me.)

And what is even more irking? The whole narrative oh, she is the Alpha Female! Look how awesome she is, when being put in charge! But then never even seen anywhere truly close the "war council" that makes all vital decisions? You know, the one mentioned by book as "The usual war council was assembled-Skirata, Vau, Gilamar, Ordo's brothers, and Jusik." Sure, so great fucking Alpha Female, the queen of kitchen or whatever she is doing now in between the rare moments when IC: 501st remember she exist still. Riiiight.

(Just to be clear, Skirata, Vau and Gilamar, as the Mando veterans and the most experienced men make perfect sense and in truth, a lot of major issues were usually discussed/argued between Kal and Walon first and foremost, with input from Ordo and Jusik. But their decisions were affecting all the members of the clan, especially in regard to Jedi. But if being Ordo’s wife by virtue puts her in charge - or demands from her to act as leader, then her lack there is really disturbing. Even Ruu Skirata talked more about mandalorian politics with her dad than Besany doing anything more prominent than being in the kitchen and watching when boys played? I admit, I may be missing something important so feel free to correct me as I’m lately doing research focused mainly at Vau and his “kids” (including Mird) so Besanny could slip away from my memory. But regardless I think my point will still stand, as women of RepCom deserve better than being gutted out of their previous established traits and sadly turned into mindless wives or waiting to be married with another clone / Jusik (don’t even let me start about Arla Fett 😡)

[thesummerstorms]

4, 10, 11 + star wars?

Send me a fandom and a number for Salty Fandom Opinions

4. Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP?*

SEVERAL. Like, a good portion of my NOTP list is SW and stuff I feel like I shouldn’t have to say. 

Sabine/Ezra  is probably the sanest, I just really fuckin’ hate the dynamic of “annoying ass boy wears down cool older girl by refusing to reliquish his crush on her until she magically sees he’s Worthy (tm),

Jusik/Arla  and Parja/Fi  both have all sorts of crazy ass medical/mental dependency and power dynamic issues and issues of dating/sex as obligation for care giving and really, really squick me out. In addition to which, Parja/Fi has this “let’s immediately take away the woman’s job while the guy expresses how much he wants to get her pregnant” dynamic as of O66 & 501st, and Jusik and Arla has the literal mind wipe+ the creepy to me age gap.

Rey/Kylo Ren which like, why the fucking fuck do I have to say this, TLJ was a nightmare in this regard, even if it ended up with her rejecting him. Rey is not a vessel to redeem a fucktard, and he literally tortured her.

Hux/Kylo Ren I don’t give a fuck about either of these assholes; Hux doesn’t even have a personality beyond “genocide”, and honestly a lot of the fandom seems like a hyperfixation on the only two white skinny guys available to fuck. 

Kallus/Garazeb I hate this one too. I hated the unearned redemption arc, and I generally dislike the idea of shipping a character with someone who thought they successfully carried out genocide on his entire species. 

I also have a significant list of fandom darling pairings that I couldn’t give less of a shit about (including anything with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and certain configurations of TCW characters) but that’s not the ask.

10. Most disliked arc? Why?

I’m having a hard time limiting this down to one.

Callista’s leaving Luke because she couldn’t feel the Force and (at least partially) thought she couldn’t give him Force-sensitive babies and then only showing up later after Luke’s wife was killed and then only to reveal her literal soul had been eaten by a Force-abomination to entrap Luke and give him mangst.  

Listen to me, Callista is a Clone Wars era Jedi who not only walked knowingly into her (painful) death and used her spirit + the Force to seize control of a rogue AI and stop it from destroying worlds, she’s also a CW era Jedi who later ensnared a body that wasn’t hers and found herself powerless and stranded years out of her own timeline but determined to regain her abilities and crack down on the Imperial remnant. Do you know how much potential she had to be a bad-ass standalone non-Skywalker character, terrible original books not withstanding? Especially if she slowly regained her Force powers over machinery and AI and electronics?

Etain’s entire BS death sequence, but everyone has heard this one before. She lives with Dar and becomes a Mando Force-using Rebel outside of the influence of her emotionally abusive and misogynist father in law, end of discussion Fuck you, KT.

Mara Jade being fridged for various Skywalker mangst. This is ALSO on Traviss. Fuck you again, KT.

Laranth in the Coruscant Knights series being fridged for mangst for Jax and the entire part where the femme fatale tries to seduce Jax in what is an INCREDIBLY obvious betrayal. Actually I hate this series in general for taking the awesome concept of Coruscanti noir and turning it into a mangst jerk fest with no respect for its female characters.

Fridging the Exile as a Force-spirit-battery and making Revan a (particularly dumb-ass) man fighting yet another variation on yet another Sith empire instead of using literally any of the interesting Force horror themes from Kotor 2

The way the Legacy of the Jedi books focused on making Mirta Gev look spiteful/incompetent/unsympathetic compared to Vestara Kai (who is also repeatedly described sexually from a creepy male pov despite being 19) instead of focusing on the way more interesting conflict of Mirta being friends with Jaina Solo and thrown into conflict against the Solos, who she grudgingly likes/respects in order to find the cure to a genetic virus Jacen Solo introduced to eradicate her and her family if she ever tries to return to her homeworld and her longing to go back to Manda’yaim vs that respect friendship

The whole BS with Canderous’s wife in the Revan novel

Seriously, do we see the effing pattern here?

Also, generally, the Yuuzhan Vong wars, but that’s more just that I found the books boring and hard to get into

The Last Jedi, in general.

11. Is there an unpopular character you like that the fandom doesn’t? Why?

Etain is heavily unpopular in a lot of the more misogynist RepCom circles because they see her as someone who entrapped Darman, etc, etc, but she’s my darling who I love to death. She’s a hot mess, she doesn’t really start off knowing how to deal with other people, she fucks up the pregnancy thing, but she’s also passionate, determined, tough, resourceful, and determined to make up for her mistakes

Callista is unpopular because truthfully her books were terribly written and also Callista/Luke vs Mara/Luke was apparently a major ship war back in the day, but people just fail to see that potential for a bad ass character arc and a unique exploration of the Force and what it means to be a live and have a self identity

I also really love guilty-and-conflicted-and-changing Canderous of late Kotor 1 and Kotor 2, and I feel like a lot of people either dislike or dismiss him as a token blood thirsty character with no depths

[thesummerstorms]

tbh I might be tempted to do a liveblog reread of RepCom this summer (since summer vacation starts Saturday!) a little bit like when I reread all the Callista source material...

...but at this point I’ve already torn into the books so many time idk if I have anything left to discuss lmao

[thesummerstorms]

This is from something much longer I’m writing about my specific Republic Commando fanfiction/roleplay and OCs, but I feel like this portion stands on its own as a statement about RepCom from the perspective of reproductive rights and women’s rights and something that’s bothered me for a long time about Triple Zero and True Colors:

Nor does it remove the fact that the series I’m writing into does not provide much of any text that could be seen as supporting abortion rights, or really reproductive rights at all. Etain is immediately torn to shreds by the narrative and the fandom for her first choice to conceive, and then systematically stripped of any agency in her own pregnancy, down to the right to name her own child.

Notably, no one ever brings up abortion in this discussion either. Not that Etain wants that during this stage; it’s clear she doesn’t. But it’s never even considered as a possibility, even one she can dismiss as something she wants. The assumption is that she will bear the child and Kal will control both her fate and her son’s and that this is “correct”.

You also have the fact that almost immediately after conceiving Etain begins addressing Kad, then an unnamed zygote and sensing his future destiny and importance. While it’s interesting from the perspective of the Force, it’s… troubling in the context of reproductive rights, particularly writing as a North American who’s seeing the rise of so-called “heartbeat bills” and anti-choicers crying that “life begins at conception” and thus anyone who has an abortion is a “murderer”. The text itself never makes that connection… but it still exists, and still has the effect of privileging what is at that point cells with the potential to become a person with a destiny even as the narrative strips the mother of control of her own fate.