#reminds me a lot of how Jean Valjean at the end of Les Mis sacrifices himself for no reason even tho the thing that would

[giantkillerjack]

WHAT UP THE CONFLATION OF SUFFERING WITH LOVE IS EXTREMELY QUESTIONABLE

Tags on this post, by @saint-ambrosef and @mariposasmonarch, isolated here because they accidentally hit on EXACTLY what I think brought about my original line of thinking:

#of course christ dying wasn't “necessary” #but damn if it isnt the most visible and obvious way to show someone that you love them #a person snapping their fingers and giving you everything you wanted isn't nearly as impactful as that person willingly enduring personal #suffering in order to give it to you #thats what we mean when we say “christ died for us” #not because he strictly had to but because he wanted to show us just how far his love goes #we puny humans can know in our lowest moments that god incarnated himself to be brutally murdered #just to make his “i love you” absolutely clear #its not a guilt trip...it's reassurance in its purest form #<- YES #and if this isn’t the most beautiful and touching expression of True Love #the Selfless Love #Love which is Willing the Good for the other for no reason but just that

I disagree with this. All of it. I genuinely think that dying for someone is a shitty and stupid gift, especially when you didn't need to do it and it provides them with no tangible benefit. I think this is a dangerous and irresponsible thing to teach your children.

Martyrdom and suffering are not inherent expressions of love.

I believe in good for others for the sake of good, and kindness for the sake of kindness. But what always throws me for a loop is the Christian idea that suffering on its own is a form of good. I disagree. I disagree with my whole heart.

As a child, I was taught that the best thing I could be is Christlike. And I was Not Okay.

I lived my life ready to set myself on fire to prevent someone else from feeling a chill, and this impulse still follows me over a decade after I lost my faith. (There were other factors also, but religion played a big role in this attitude.)

It has been devastating to my health, nearly to the point of death on multiple occasions. The idea that the best and purest form of love is to suffer - It's gross. I think it's gross. I don't feel loved; I feel like if someone tortured themselves to death and then I was told to rejoice, for they did it all for me! And I'm like... oh. I didn't... ask for that?

I've lived my entire adult life without proper healthcare. I would argue that someone snapping their fingers and giving me everything I ever wanted would actually be a LOT better for me than if they suffered and died. Like, magnitudes better.

I believe that the purest form of love is to LIVE for another person.

I've done that. I do that. I've seen people suffer pain worse than death and still not die just because they loved me. And I felt loved not because they were suffering but because they were doing whatever it took to live by my side and to live in happiness.

Sacrifice is a part of love, but it is not inherently loving. It has to have a reason or it is just pure performative loss, which actually does feel like a guilt trip!

I just-- I've gotten a ton of completely different dogmatic answers today, but to me, these tags are what strikes at the heart of it all.

The idea that we need to place every single other living thing before ourselves even and perhaps especially to the point of self-destruction.

For an example, in the Catholic church, most of the Saints are martyrs! And they were taught to us like action heroes with superpowers and everything! My little sister with their childhood OCD collected cards of saints like they were Pokemon cards! Which is really cute until you consider that they were a compulsive child idolizing a pantheon of people whose defining trait was brutal self-sacrificial death. They were one of the most anxious children I've ever met.

For me, as an autistic kid, the idea that suffering was somehow inherently good helped me to endure a lot more extreme sensory pain than I otherwise would have. I was terribly proud of my ability to endure pain. But now as an adult with crippling cPTSD, I can't help but notice that none of those sacrifices I made actually helped anyone!

I don't personally believe that gods are real. But if I did, I think I'd be awfully angry at the Christian god for killing himself and having the nerve to say it was for me.

I've literally had a loved one who believed they were a burden offer to kill themselves for me. It was a heinous idea for a gift, and I told them so. They were terribly disappointed when I chose the other, much more difficult and beautiful option, which was to live for each other. Live and grow and love in the light. To plant gardens for each other and cook them into meals. To build and nurture and know. THAT is the most beautiful and sure form of love. I will accept no substitutes.

I hope someday someone shows you love in a way that feels more beautiful to you than crucifixion - literal or metaphysical. You deserve love that isn't defined by pain.