#reason i didnt use httyd1 is because

[rotbtd-edits]

The similiar struggles of Merida & Hiccup

Just my two cents because I love talking these movies. I find it interesting how both Merida and Hiccup share similiar conflicts/themes in their movies. They both feel pressured to become leader figures by their parents, while also stubbornly sticking to their own ideals. Merida is trained by her strict mom to become the perfect princess, and is also expected to carry out her duties through marriage. Hiccup in HTTYD2 is expected to become the next chief by his dad while Hiccup himself feels it's not for him and he can't meet the expectations. They both have other dreams and yearn to keep their freedoms. Merida wants to live her life like she wants to, and Hiccup wants to keep exploring and spreading his findings about dragons. They also have parents that at some point have refused to listen to them.

They also act in defiance to their families in order to maintain their own ideals and freedoms, wanting to do things their way instead of traditions. Merida argues against her mom, breaks the clan traditions by shooting for her own hand, and asks the witch for help to "change her mom" to agree to Merida's views. This ends up endangering her mother and the peace between the clans. Hiccup in turn refuses to listen to his parents about Drago, both who know him much better than Hiccup. Because Hiccup keeps believing anyone can change, that if he's just given the chance he can make it happen and everyone else is just hindering him in their warmongering blindness. Hiccup believes so strongly in his position as the pacifist peacemaker that he doesn't budge until it's too late. Neither Merida nor Hiccup really stops to think of the possible consiquences of their actions, they only see the positive outcomes. They feel like they're not being listened to, but they also don't listen to others either.

So they both try to escape the expectations and restrictions put on them by actively defying and being stubborn about it, that it ends up endangering everyone. The main difference is, that while Merida gets a second change and has everything fixed in the end, Hiccup ends up paying the heavy price for his mistakes.

Merida's actions get her mom turned into a bear and almost loses her completely. In the end when all seems lost Merida finally admits her fault aloud and to herself, owning up to her mistakes. Before that she also admits her careless actions against the clans and is ready to accept her duties as the princess. Merida finally sees the bigger picture outside her own point of view, that she's in a position where she simply can't think only about herself. She manages to reverse the spell and fix her relationship with her mom, who has also come to see the error in her own ways, thus ending things perfect.

Hiccup's mistakes sadly don't get as happy resolve as his stubborness ultimately ends up getting his dad killed. It's the cruel wake up call to Hiccup, how some people are simply beyond help and fighting them is the only way. It's what his dad had tried to tell him throughout the movie. Had he listened to his parents, things might have ended better, and he has to carry this guilt with him probably his whole life. Drago is the real villain and culprit, but Hiccup did play a part in how everything turned out. His part is more nuanced than Merida's, who is more clearly at fault in Brave along with her mom. After Stoick's death, Hiccup has no choice but to face the reality, own to his mistakes by stopping Drago and accept his duty as the chief. It was a harsh lesson for him, that sometimes you just can't force things to go your way, but maybe it was one he needed before becoming the leader for his tribe. Just like Merida needed to face hers to fix everything around her and correct her ways.

So yeah, like said I find it interesting how Merida and Hiccup's stories and their character growths follow similiar themes. I'm glad Merida got her happy ending, but damn now I really want to give Hiccup a hug! ;u;

[heliianth]

(i'm that anon) DON'T feel bad i think it's interesting talk all you wish. i never finished that trilogy so it's the same thing as a video essay about media i've never consumed

LOL noo i didnt think u did it on purpose i just have a guilt complex or w/e but im taking this as an invitation to air my grievances outside of tags SO.

I Just Don't Understand The Decision to align the end with the books. i've never Read the books but i Do Know that they are extremely different (because i've heard abt whats up and i'm just not super interested so ive never checked em out) and HTTYD1, while awesome, is not a faithful adaptation in any sense of the word. and KEEP IN MIND. from what IVE HEARD. the relationship between humans and dragons in the books is more fraught and unfair than the one in the movies. like ive heard stuff about slavery and pets. but the movie makes it almost a Point to say that the dragon riders treat their dragons equally and every place in which the two coexist do this as well. theres a reason why Hiccup calls Toothless His Best Friend. in the books it makes sense to separate the two groups, because there was genuine harm being done no matter what happened and separation was the best solution, but in the movie-verse the relationship being fought for was mutually beneficial and also had real, tangible support behind it that was having payoffs. idk if there was like a deal with Cressida Cowell for the end of the franchise but it did not work with the context set up by the other two movies. ur telling me all these dragons who bonded irreplacably with their riders, their best friends, wouldnt say "hey, fuck you, i'm staying"? they ALL went to this secret hidden cave after facing a bad guy that doesnt even seem that intimidating after u watch RTTE? like that love wasnt strong enough to defy everything? <- U KNOW. THE POINT OF THE SERIES.

speaking of which, HTTYD is like almost obnoxiously in your face about its theme of disability. the first movie is about a someone who can't do things everyone else can (kill dragons) who befriends someone else who also can't do things everyone (other dragon) else can (fly), then they help each other and make themselves and the world better for it. Hiccup makes Toothless a mobility aid and Hiccup literally becomes an amputee at the end of the movie and its framed as a moment of connection and understanding between the two rather than a tragedy. in the second movie, the villain is literally someone looking to enslave all dragons using the big mind-controlly dragon (i have some issue with the whole "the alpha protects them all" theme of HTTYD2. i get what they were going for but i don't think it was executed super well. the rest of the material introduced is super solid despite that tho imo) he abused since birth and Toothless broke out of it because of the depth of his attachment and then proceeded to beat the big dragon's ass to protect Hiccup. the entire theme being set up here is about strength in compassion, acceptance, and togetherness. these stories about outcasts proving themselves inherently worthy of love due to their difference and connection and not in spite of it Are The Type Of Stories most marginalized communities latch onto for obvious reasons. u see it literally everywhere—thats why the queer community calls some movies "queer movies" even though there might not be any characters that are actually queer. this type of setup is actually almost like a gateway for authors to address these subjects when it might otherwise be censored because it's so fucking prevalent and recognizable.

and i dont know if the directors or w/e Knew This and i don't want to accuse anyone of anything because they were clearly very, very passionate but introducing a Girl Character (I UNDERSTAND THAT the light fury is a different species and this is why she looks so different than Toothless but imo... she still falls into the "softer pink small female design" trope because they could've chosen to Not Make light furies look like that, especially bc every female dragon and even human design has been pretty good beforehand, so what changed?) with which Toothless falls in love with Immediately and is on screen for a total of EIGHT MINUTES who causes him to leave Hiccup forever without much thought is like the One Thing u dont do when u have themes like this. the movie tries to frame Hiccup's care for Toothless as clingyness but like... ur kidding me. HUH? THIS WAS NEVER A PROBLEM. Hiccup and Toothless being inseparable was Always framed as a strength that helped themselves and the people around them. thats why i sometimes talk abt HTTYD3 "hetero-ifying" the series. it tries really hard to deliver a "mature" message about ~*: . ~ letting go what you love ~*: . ~ but this was completely unnecessary if you think about it for more than two seconds in context with the 2 other movies and EIGHT SEASONS of tv shows its placed in. there was NO REASON for the dragons to go to the hidden world. Grimmel was no more of a threat thematically than Drago or Viggo. he had badass powerful dragons on his side but his motivation was the same Narratively. what made him Win this time? it just makes the entire thing feel like a cheap grab at tears and toy figurines in order to seem more adult than the other two despite its incoherency—Hiccup says the dragons will stay away until the humans can learn enough to deserve them, but they won't learn if they're separate from each other! This Is Like ABYSMAL post-hoc justification for the decision to have the dragons leave. and then the very end of the movie has Hiccup finding Toothless again (who FORGOT HIM? thats almost offensive) anyways, because who cares, whatever. anything for the audience to cry.

i dunno. i feel like despite the amount of care n passion put into HTTYD3, it's really.... not in the same spirit of the other two. all of the movie-verse media contradicts its message and themes, and it barely addresses this in a way i think is acceptable for the level of care n passion that was put in. there must've been thought and consideration here, all of the people working on it must've loved what they were making, so that's why i dont Get why HTTYD3 is the way it is. it's existence leaves the Entire Franchise feeling really hollow—without it the franchise is a statement about the power of love and belief in a better world, it features characters struggling to help themselves and their friends live in happiness no matter what challenges they face. with it, it says that these things are childish and something to let go. that the determination to make things better for yourselves and the people you love in spite of all the horrible people telling you otherwise is immature and needs to be grown out of. thats so fucking awful, dude, and thats why i don't really get how people who love the themes of the other media in the series can like the third movie.

anyway. LMFAO. this will probably be the end of me complaining abt this movie bc i addressed basically all my issues and id feel annoying repeating stuff in other posts. love u nonnie ur very funny.

[inke-ri]

*winces* yea. see, I think this hits the nail on the head. After a year I finally found the post that really explains my big issue with the hidden world. I remember back when the movie came out, and I had a minor breakdown (okay, little more than minor, might have cried a bit) over the fact that Dean constantly called the dragons "wild animals" and that directly clashed with the way I saw them (as intelligent thinking creatures capable of making their own choices). I even quoted the exact two things in OP's post, but it was in the sense of "did I seriously misunderstand the plot so badly? were Valka and Hiccup just projecting onto the dragons after all?"

I was very confused and very upset but I kept putting the blame on ME, the viewer, thinking I had missed a key part of the way this story was written... But now, after having many months for this movie to settle in the back of my head, I can see that it... Wasnt really me. It wasnt my interpretation that was faulty. I had thought so, I think because it had been hammered into my brain that Dean had thought of the ending for so many years.

It's honestly kinda funny because I went off specifically about this several dozen times - how HTTYD1, GotNF and HTTY2's themes directly contradict 3's, that the WHOLE POINT was that love > instincts - but I always missed the fact that no, it isnt just love > instincts. Its the fact that those instincts were never violent in the first place.

The movies can sometimes throw you off, because of the Alpha's control on Toothless in 2 and the way the Queen was an aggressive little tyrant in HTTYD1. But the whole point of the movies was that "everything we know about you... is wrong" (or however the quote goes, it sucks that 3 has soured even my constant rewatching of the first movie). That dragons when left on their own arent naturally distrustful and aggressive, they're kind and curious and playful and respond to trust with trust of their own.

And I guess I had forgotten, I guess I took 3's canon as hard canon and thought the problem was with me as the one analyzing it. And now my tiny little brain was just blown once more, as I remember the lesson HTTYD 1 taught us all over again. Is this how the berkians felt when Hiccup showed them dragons werent inherently evil? hah! It's almost worth it, for the delight of feeling how they felt |D

I guess its just... good to know that the problem wasnt me, y'know? it takes a weight I didnt know I had off my shoulders. It isnt really us being salty for "no reason bc the movie was great you just dont see it". Its the fact that they literally changed the core of how dragons think and behave, and slapped a HTTYD-esque coat of paint and setting over it. Of course everything is gonna feel off and weird for a fan, because they're moving and talking like Hiccup and Toothless but theres a subtle underlying difference making them out of character. and thats it, thats exactly what made all these scenes feel so off! Its cause they changed the most important rule of HTTYD's universe. When you change the very core of your world lore, its literally impossible to keep the ripple effect of that from affecting every single character. And its just so freeing, to finally understand that it wasnt just a bunch of weird decisions and scenes that dont make sense. To stop wondering how all those changes were approved of when the message of THW is so contradicting of the rest of the series. Its literally just one change- a massive one, but so subtle that you dont really realize how much it impacts the plot until someone in tumblr whacks you over the head with it.

Valka: This wasn’t a vicious beast, but an intelligent, gentle creature whose soul reflected my own.

THW crew: