#psoh meta

[howlingmoonrise]

btw if anyone ever wondered whether psoh is set in san francisco or los angeles or elsewhere, here's your answer: the official art seems to be more or less a match with the city of los angeles seal.

........with some artistic liberties taken, i guess. don't ask me why the bear is blue... or a rhinoceros @_@

[howlingmoonrise]

Hi! Same anon here! Don't worry I barely sent the ask like a day ago :P

Thank you for giving such a detailed answer! I gotta say, I never considered the Ds to be akin to plants (I did think of them being the chinese equivalent to kamis tho, I think the term was xia?) but I can see what you mean by that, maybe like trees? I like the idea of sentient sacred trees taking on human forms, wouldn’t it be cool if the "real" Tsuki-hime was one of their kind?

In a less serious note, when I read the plant part, my dumb ass brain started to think about Trigun, and Vash as a plant being in his universe with completely opposed ideology to the Ds, the one of unwavering love and faith in humanity despite most humans in Trigun being far worse than any of the literal evil ones in PSOH, and what would happen if they ever met :'D

Also, do you have any theories on why our D was sick and apparently needed a transplant of some sort? Personally I always thought that he may have been born "flawed" either due to their kind's equivalent to genetic degradation on their biology, or alternatively a literal manifestation of the ideals conflict between Sofu D and Papa D? Both?

Sorry if I ask too many questions, I had no idea PSOH had a surviving fandom until the 7seas announcement!!

huh. you know. i was fairly sure the term kami had been mentioned in at least one of the translations but i just checked the last two chapters in both and apparently not? though the el dorado chapter seems to confirm the meaning if not the name when it mentions the touch of a "dying god" and accepts d's blood, at a minimum; i'm not sure if the japanese original text uses the word "kami" either, but it's possible.

anyway, i've been kind of going with the assumption that they're something similar to that - not exactly gods in the western divinity sense, but more like beings of the land. i probably absorbed the term kami in regards to the Ds from fandom, but now that you mention it, it doesn't make all that much sense since he's chinese. the term in question in chinese seems to be "shen" (written with the same character) but it doesn't appear to be an exact equivalent in terms of meaning. i'll have to look more into it!

yeah the plant thing for me comes from several occasions generally associated with d and life/death (as mentioned before, the gattolotto extra, d entering a state of despair, d's blood turning into rare plants when he's running from vesca, d being taken over by plants when falling into despair, the plant core of the papasplosion) and also from the hilarity of leon only ever getting anywhere with a lady if they're plants (as per the flowers and the detective extras) and d lowkey also being one and following this trend 😂 though that latter bit is more the shipper goggles than anything lmfao

BUT!!! MORE IMPORTANTLY!!!! *rubs hands together* you fool! you just activated my trap card when it comes to talking about d's illness and all issues surrounding it! i love discussing this topic and poking fun at the tokyopop translation and putting up a murderboard full of red string for theories!

okay so the first thing you need to know is that the tokyopop translation took some. liberties. and is not entirely accurate. they seem to paint papa as far more of a villain and sofu as far more of a saint than they are, for one, and an important implication about d's health kinda goes in the wrong direction based on this. as such, if you only read the tp translation, you may be caught off-guard by some of what i'll say below.

once again under the cut because i'm a rambler!

things we know about d's illness:

needs sugar to keep from getting faint/dizzy

extremely low endurance at times (which makes leon think that he might have a heart condition) that either triggers or is triggered by his illness, as per the dragon chapter

may or may not be related to his eye (either as a symptom or a cause)

some sort of pain attack is involved? in the donor chapter we see him hover his hand in front of his throat, though it might be while it's in motion to go elsewhere, such as his heart (the dragon chapter has both the highlights near the throat, but the hand placed by his heart/lungs)

papa mentions to the pseudo-sister that d's body was "born incomplete" - whether this is true, he thought it was true (more on this below), or it was a simplification for her sake (as she had the mentality of a child) is not clear

d apparently is lacking several things, or they are in the process of failing (also as per the donor chapter). THAT BEING SAID, there is an interesting point here

needs sugar to keep from getting faint/dizzy

may or may not be associated with his eye

some sort of pain attack is involved? in the donor chapter we see him hover his hand in front of his throat

the illness has been present for at least several years, presumably for as long as d can remember (though not necessarily from birth; more on this later)

papa has been studying and trying to cure this illness also for years

after d drinks a "medicine" processed from the orangutan hybrid's body the symptoms seem to stop - i'm pointing this out as more of a curiosity thing, because on other occasions d couldn't as much as eat fish flakes without some ominous remarks about his bloodlust almost awakening again or something of the sort (you'll excuse me if i don't go looking for this particular quote right now)

papa mentions to the pseudo-sister that d's body was "born incomplete" - whether this is true, he thought it was true (more on this below), or it was a simplification for her sake (as she had the mentality of a child) is not clear

d's body had several things apparently lacking or in the process of failing (also as per the donor chapter). THAT BEING SAID, there is an interesting point here

this post from one of tumblr user @chaikat's psoh liveblogging japanese translation notes (several of which you'll see me mention at other times in this post because the info in there is just THAT crunchy) points out the following:

When Nue Erh says she’ll give D what he lacks, the part where she says “my eyes” in the eng version is actually specifically “this eye” in the jp version.

keep this quote in mind for a bit!

and now, back to the revelations of the final chapters!

aka, the panels that give me fucking brainworms:

uh??? hello??? one could understand that endless asexual reproduction of the same being through centuries would eventually result in mutations, and in fact it was under this assumption that i laboured when i first read psoh, but this conversation points to a different cause entirely, originating from sofu's interference.

doesn't help that the tokyopop version is wildly different, too:

tokyopop's version doesn't seem have anything to do with either d's illness or eye whatsoever, alas 😬 and considering several of their past instances of mistranslations and ad-libbing on this manga, i'm far less likely to believe their version of events.

another detail i didn't notice on my first go-arounds: the fact that the first words sofu d says in response to papa's accusation imply that the undertaking of q-chan's form took a sacrifice, and that this is related to d's eye. it took me this other translation notes liveblog post to realize that the two things were connected, since there's an entire other page with side-comments in the middle breaking up the dialogue flow.

ANOTHER most excellent thing that chaikat's commentary brings up and that i haven't seen on either translation is that sofu specifically mentions using the eye, or the term yorishiro:

(small text above Grandpa D): I borrowed one eye for the yorishiro.

i cannot claim to be even remotely close to an expert on shintoism, so here's a quote from wikipedia (which might or might not be correct) regarding yorishiro:

Yorishiro were conceived to attract the kami and then give them a physical space to occupy to make them accessible to human beings for ceremonies

i'm not sure if sofu d used it as this exact purpose, or if there's any sort of tradition in manga to lend it a slightly different meaning (jshk for example uses it as an artifact that stores the powers of the being connected to it, and something similar to this would make some sense to me here since he's shifting into a different form and putting his powers/presence away). either way, sofu has definitely used at least a portion of d's body for his own purposes without consent, so we cannot discard him using more.

*puts tinfoil hat on* it is at this point i bring up our precious orangutan sister's words again! she's listing the things she was made to replace in d's body, with the specificity of one singular eye. coincidence? i think not! i'm not entirely sure i agree that she means the left eye as considered in chaikat's post, but as an exercise let's think up the motivations for both possibilities:

replacing the left eye (purple, papa's colour): implies that the eye that was interfered with by sofu has bypassed the illness, and d's original one remains imperfect and bound to deteriorate; implies also that papa/sister know that the right eye is not a concern when it comes to d's health situation, which does track with papa's later accusation

replacing the right eye (gold, sofu's colour): implies that something is wrong with that eye, in ways that go far beyond the bounds of d's illness, since the original one would be okay to leave as-is; since papa is aware that the gold eye was caused by sofu, it would make sense to want to replace it due to both his resentment for sofu and concern for d

it is also worth mentioning that sofu never seems to have devoted any time to trying to cure d's illness, unlike papa (who was deemed incapable of raising a child by sofu, which may or may not be true), and that his reaction to the death of both his son and stray animals in a forest fire is to not even blink twice.

sofu having removed d from papa's care, mixed with d having mismatched eyes as a child under sofu's care, and the fact that we don't really see a mention of q-chan being around at that time make me poke interestedly at sofu d - because even if you buy that he *checks notes* only traded his grandson's eye to turn into a tiny cute creature in order to keep an eye (heh) on him, that doesn't really... track with the timeline of when he actually left d alone and had cause to become q-chan? which makes me wonder what sofu's actual use for the eye was, since he presumably had it since d was around-ish maybe five years old. (remember me saying "for as long as d can remember, though not necessarily from birth"? yeah.)

does this mean that he caused the illness? probably not, but fun to think about in connection to everything else! especially because the main point i'd expect d to ask when papa mentions the mutations/changes resulting from the inumerous replications of the d line would be his ?now-cured? illness, but what he does actually ask about is his eyes, despite papa and sofu - supposedly perfect clones - also having eyes that differ from the other (papa's being purple, sofu's being gold). one would think the illness would be the priority, but no! unless the two things are connected, and-- *continues to add red string to the murderboard*

anyway this is the theory i find the most fun to play with!

slightly less unhinged ones would probably be just. you know. normal replication mutations and genetic degeneration and stuff? or if you go with the tokyopop translations and i remember correctly, there are some implications that papa experimented on d before sofu took him away, but take that with a grain of salt. another thing that comes to mind is also the alice/daughter chapter, where after several generations the resulting rabbits were killed by the sugar and stuff consumed by the original generation - it could also be something like that, because since they're clones their bodies wouldn't have changed to adapt to the times, different foods, different air quality, etc, which would translate into poison for the newest generations.

i hope i didn't go too far down the theory rabbit hole, oops! 😂

[howlingmoonrise]

So... sorry if this came out of the blue... but I always wondered about the PSOH translation of the final chapter, where Papa D dies and he apparently... reincarnates as human? Or is that something unclear? Because for most people, I keep seing the hc that he reincarnated as the new!D and that's how they "reproduce" but tbh I've never been too convinced of that? But I'm just one guy so... what do you think?

hi! absolutely no worries, my inbox is always open especially for psoh discussions! (though i hope you haven't sent this too long ago because i was travelling and only just got home, i promise i wasn't ignoring this)

okay so! my first thought was whether that came from the translation, since tokyopop's was notoriously unreliable and unclear in many places, but they turned out to actually be fairly similar in this particular page.

below, tokyopop's:

and then the most recent fan translation (by ruthlessnightsscans):

look i will. say i don't vibe with the "papa d becomes human" either.

especially because the next panels also seem to contradict it?

this "last memory", as we might recall, is uh. papa d himself getting killed by humans? and telling d not to embrace hope again or stray from the path.

which! i can kinda get him contradicting himself about - papa is a very interesting character, and feelings very often differ from actions taken. however it doesn't make a lot of sense for sofu d to want to raise a human child (human-hater as he is but i guess his child-stealing tendencies overpowered it) and then.... give him his own memories of hating humans, while knowing he wanted to reincarnate as one?

going from this, i think we can probably split your ask in two parts:

the matter of the reproduction of the D line

papa reincarnating as a human

apologies in advance for rambling and adding even more meta but i'm incapable of shutting up about psoh :'D

--

ON THE REPRODUCTION OF THE D LINE

IT SURE HAS, SOFU D!!

i actually think this is a very interesting topic! i've discussed this at length several times before in the psoh server, but it's relatively impossible to reach one true canon conclusion without more information. but what we DO know is this:

a new being was generated from papa's death

the death of a d is surrounded by plant matter and/or a possible ?spiritual explosion? anyway, they're closely linked to plants in matters of life and death (see also gattolotto, and d nearly giving in to despair in the last volume)

there were others before sofu, papa, and d, from the same line (mentioned/shown at several points in the prequels, and present in at least one spread); those three have not lived through the ages as immortals

that being said, their lifespans are also unknown, and presumably they do not always die violent deaths?

they are unable to be cloned in laboratory conditions

the "titles" of father, grandfather, etc, don't seem to necessarily be about who actually gave "birth" to the new addition or who raised him, but rather regard who is the previously youngest one in the line (such as sofu d assigning d the title of "father" of new!d to d, despite immediately taking him away and d not being directly involved in his birth), and therefore give no actual information about their geneology

originally there was only one d to survive the massacre, and now there are three, and there only seem to be three at any given point in canon (sofu also only mentions a father and a grandfather in his series; there is an exception which sensei herself seems to have forgotten about, which is when d mentions a sister before the orangutang chapter but she is never again even mentioned, either on that occasion or on any other relevant ones)

so what we can conclude from this is that the Ds can be reborn from their death (whether this is only under certain circumstances and desires, like papa's was, is undetermined). they also reproduce without the need for a partner (every d is a natural clone, ergo they practice magical and/or asexual reproduction when they don't have anyone to reproduce with).

the association with plants in matters of life and death can also point to the type of reproduction they use (as a sidenote, i once read a fic where the d in question had an aerial stem rooting into a pot to reproduce, which i felt was in line with this). they may or may not be able to reproduce sexually with other species, such as humans - we know the "machinery" is at least virtually undistinguishable from a human's (thank you shin psoh for that lovely information) but their blood is..... uh. interesting enough that it might not mix too well with others (once again, see shin psoh). then again, they are Ds and can do a bunch of weird shit, so who knows. i assume they can reproduce sexually with their own kind, were others still around, since continuous cloning is not viable for long-term survival.

another interesting point here is that at some point back in the lineage one d turned into three. this could indicate a peculiarity in the reproduction process (something like twins having happened twice down the line?), or supernatural shenanigans such as a wish or a contract with another being that allowed for this to happen. i'm inclined towards this rather than them just... being able to make more of themselves whenever, because if that were the case i don't really see the reason for them to keep to such low numbers when their goal is to take revenge on humans. but i disgress.

the point above makes me think that apart from the one-becomes-three event, they are only able to "reproduce" without a partner in the way that papa did - aka, by dying and being reborn, which is the only occasion of a d death/birth that we see in canon and is lowkey confirmed by sofu ("death and rebirth, that is the life cycle of our species").

going from this, papa being reborn into new!d seems viable to me, except for one small detail...

--

2. PAPA REINCARNATING AS A HUMAN

look. the panels say it, or something close enough to it, but i desperately do not like it so i'm going to be as nitpickety as possible.

firstly, i don't think it really... makes sense? i already explained the matter of papa's own feelings on the subject further above, so now let's talk about the possibility and likelihood of this happening:

he is definitely not born in a human way. i guess you can make an argument for the papasplosion with the plants and animals going all over the place being his "divinity" being expelled to be replaced by humanity instead, which... is actually an interesting concept ngl. 🤔 (but also that's way too much hair for a human newborn, and the baby looks far too chill and awake for having just being born in the middle of fire and flames and explosions 😂)

"death and rebirth, that is the life cycle of our species". okay but. OUR species. not humans. you're contradicting yourself, sofu d! there's four ways to read this, in my view. the first is that the Ds can... change species, under certain circumstances? and then possibly go back to being kami?? (i find this unlikely, especially since i doubt he'd be the first, even if not turning human but into another creature). the second is that the reborn as human might something of a figure of speech (i do not know japanese so i can only rely on translations, and therefore do not know exactly what was said or how it could be interpreted). the third is that sofu might be lying, as he has been known to do on family matters like these. the fourth is that "human" refers only to some aspects of new!d, rather than his whole-ass species and dna changing just like that - so new!d being a hybrid or mutation/chimaera of some sort (which would be interesting considering papa's experiments on that field).

"no matter how many times they betrayed and killed you, you still want to be among them". okay FIRSTLY, interesting implication there? as in, killed several times implication. i wonder if papa's previous incarnation (possibly sofu's own father, who also had long hair like papa) also died in a similar manner for sofu to phrase it like this. secondly, being among humans is not necessarily the same as being human.

it's really only the "human child" part that's tripping us up here. i went to check the translations on other languages i can read that i could find (in this case, spanish and portuguese) and they confirm the human child thing, but often those translations are based on the english ones rather than the original. anyone with access to the original japanese feel free to weight in!

another thing that also doesn't really work with new!d being human is how he "inherits" the petshop by the epilogue of the og series. not only is it strange for sofu to want to raise him considering his hate for humans, but new!d seems to be by himself handling the petshop and taking on the functions of the Ds, killing humans included (chris finds him due to deaths caused by the petshop pets). he can be murdery and human-hating as a human, but presumably there are petshop-related things he cannot do as one - as we saw also on that last volume, humans cannot travel on the petshop/ark, and that's only one (very relevant!) skill of many we saw the Ds display along the series.

all of this is mostly to say that while both english translations agree on the papa being reborn as a human child line, i don't like the idea of it and so i'm choosing to ignore it 😂

anyway, tl;dr: papa was indeed reborn or gave birth to new!d. new!d is presumably at least somewhat human according to sofu d/the current english translations, which is a take i don't like and personally choose to ignore. the explosion death-rebirth combo may or may not be their only method of reproduction, which is unconfirmed.

many thanks for the ask!! 💖💖💖 i hope i didn't make things worse 😂

[howlingmoonrise]

Hey, is that psoh discord still around?

You bet it is, and always looking for more fans to join and cry with us! 

Come on over :D