#ps I hate it when people call me naive because I don't think the world is a constant vortex or despair and lonelyness

[fridgewitch]

“I’m not a pessimist, I’m a realist.”

No, Larry, you’re a punk-ass bitch who thinks that dealing with the consequences of the stupid shit you did as a teen makes you a goddamn martyr. Sit the fuck down.

[seenashwrite]

Something's been stated that's just not sitting right with me: "even as a demon, dean treated women with respect. period." I don't know if it's the way it's said as an absolute or that I have an issue with the use of 'respect'.The example gif used of Dean and Lester, to me, it's more about judging Lester for hypocrisy than not wanting to murder the wife, and the way he treated Anne Marie: he disregarded her feelings and her job which I wouldn't call respect, not by Dean standards. Thoughts?

[I kinda empathize with Lester here, as I understand am living on borrowed time with regard to having such a statement cast upon my person at some future interval, though I’m not hiring demon assassins, so points to Nash I s’pose]

Okay. So. Let’s unpack this, and I don’t think it’s gonna be the giant-ass suitcase on wheels it may seem to be at first blush. Maybe somewhere between a backpack and a carry-on.

‘Cause, see, we don’t have a ton to work with - we really only have scant amounts of observational information on Demon!Dean. They’re poignant, though, to be sure. The way I figure, neither you nor I -  nor the originators/supporters of the stance you relate in your Q - should pluck out a singular moment and presume it paints an entire picture of a person’s character, fictional or no, current state of mind or no.

Demons on this show have demonstrated they do have standards and work/professional ethic(s) [see Crowley’s thoughts on honoring deals, contracts, whatnots], but let us not confuse this with holding on to their personal morality from when they were human. 

Remember - Dean is a free agent. He is not a minion of the King of Hell, he’s just kinda hanging out with Crowley, no loyalty/obligation there [see above, RE: Lester situation, Dean couldn’t care less about any deal parameters, which Crowley scolds him about later]. Sure, Crowley’s funneling kills Dean’s way, but are any of us under the impression Dean couldn’t get those for himself, as needed? [Spoiler: He can go get what he wants/needs, and he’s *said so*]

My hot take: This Lester kill is primarily about convenience, versus taking a stand against hypocrisy, and especially not misogyny, the latter of which smacks of “looking for something in ___ because it is meaningful to you”.

Let’s get this outta the way super fast, so nobody has to go a-diggin’, just sticking it in for easy-peasy purposes - here’s the definition of “ethics”:

So this can splinter off into subgroups, like religion [”Christian ethics”] and professions [”medical ethics”], etc, etc, etc. Things like what you hear called “rules of engagement” can fall under this umbrella, too. You know, how great care should be taken not to level hospitals and kindergartens, how opposing sides in a conflict should treat POWs humanely, those things. There are sometimes legal overlaps [read: consequences for violations] with ethics but not always.

And just like in the show, we’ve all heard about people who were the best, kindest, talented, most enjoyable folks in the world, only to learn they engaged in what we may perceive as wholly immoral, despicable, gasp-worthy behavior in their personal life. An example from recent past might be the Joss Whedon situation. ::sigh::: So very much disappoint here.

I say all that to say: in real life, the presumption that a person’s ethics transfer to all areas of their life is naive at best, dangerous at worst.

On to your point with Anne Marie - agreed. We’ll get to the entire context of the Lester scene in a sec. And here we go again, with that hill I’m gonna die on, The Sweetheart Situation, which includes both Dean and Demon!Dean. For this, let us stick to Demon!Deanbehavior, as that’s our topic, specifically as related to women. 

But on a brief, though related, aside - Anne Marie could work for NashHole, Inc.:

ANNE-MARIE - Love you, Crowley.CROWLEY - Love you more… sweetheart.ANNE-MARIE - Anne-Marie… jackass.

She gets it.

———————————-

10 x 1 scenes/dialogue [all bold are mine]: 

Convo not long after finding them in his bed……

CROWLEY - Girl seemed nice. Slightly damaged. I could see the old you falling for that.DEAN - Yeah, well, not to worry. She means nothing.

———————————-

Dean sees dude - who she’s apparently mentioned to him - messing with her…

Convo later……

DEAN - Let’s go somewhere, you and me.ANNE-MARIE - We are somewhere.DEAN - No. Somewhere else.ANNE-MARIE - Sweetie… We barely know each other. And you’re drunk.DEAN - Yeah, but, uh… I- I protected your honor, didn’t I?ANNE-MARIE - Yeah. I thought so, too. Seeing you take on Matt, I was like, wow, no one’s ever done that for me before. But then you kept going and going, and I realized whatever is going on with you has nothing to do with my “honor” at all.DEAN - Hm. You got all that from a bar fight? Wow. You’re good.ANNE-MARIE - I wait tables at a roadhouse. I meet the bad guys. I meet the good guys. And maybe for a second there, I thought you were a good guy playing bad. I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. Maybe you’re just—

I have to add here a comment - in its entirety - that I saw about this scene. I’m not attributing because (a) I didn’t note it, so don’t remember, and (b) I legit don’t want to hurt feelings when I say this is such the piss-poor assessment:

“i love this moment. i mean, we’re supposed to hate this moment, because dean is being an insensitive dick, but i think it tells us a lot, not just about demon!dean, but also dean himself. dean’s always slept around and been something of a lady’s man, but we’ve never seen him like this. he’s always been respectful, loving even, in many cases. but you strip away dean’s humanity and he doesn’t see it that way. he can’t see the good in his own actions. dean’s always been one for self hatred, but who knew making him a demon would actually make that worse?”

What, and I mean this deeply, the hell? This is plain as can be. 

He’s just stating the truth. There is nothing in his mannerisms or tone that indicates that he doesn’t see himself in exactly this light, and he’s not being weepy about it. Sure, “real” Dean might, could make a case for that with various show moments/dialogue of self-loathing. But this dude ain’t looking for “the good in his own actions”, c’mon, now.  

This isn’t some shmoopy, deep-seated, introspective scene. I have it somewhere in my files, can’t hit you with a source right this second, but when I was collecting things for the “gold star” list of characteristics I couldn’t ignore for the Dean in my story was a quote from Jensen, speaking of Demon!Dean [and I’m paraphrasing], saying that the scariest thing about him isn’t that he cares about being evil/being a demon/whatever, it’s that he cares about nothing. He is free of any remorse Dean possesses [at *this* point, but that’s another post].

So one more time: Demon!Dean embraces it and gives zero fucks. 

Dean is wanting to leave because Crowley had informed him prior that he was more than ready to move on, and oh - PS - he’s led Sam right to them.

Dean wanted Anne Marie to come with him, essentially running away from Crowley [and the likely forthcoming shit-storm dealing with Sam], because they’ve had, and I quote, “good sex”. Why would he want to bother to find anyone else to put up with his impressive array of fuckery when he’s got a primo bang right in front of him? Sorry, sorry - primo skank?

Again: convenience.

———————————-

Let’s wind things down with 10 x 2…..

DANCER - No touching. House rules.

DEAN - You sure about that? [pulls a $20 bill out of his wallet, lays it on the stage] Go ahead…..

……Pick it up.DANCER - And we’re done.DEAN - Hey, hey, hey. Song’s not over, sweetheart. [grabs her]SECURITY - Time to go, jerkwad.

[DEAN beats the SECURITY guard unconscious, kicks him for good measure, finishes his drink, and picks his $20 bill up from the stage]

 King of respecting women, ladies and gents.

———————————-

And last but not least, backing up, how’s about we get some Lester context, eh?

DEAN - Les… I’m gonna say something to you. I need you to really listen to me. You’re a loser. Your lady in there – she’s a North Dakota 8. You’re a 4 ½, max. Now, I don’t blame her for stepping out – especially if she found you were messing around first.LESTER - No. Oh, no. I-I wasn’t…Uh – How do you know?DEAN - Well, you just got that, uh, pervy, “I’d do anything to nail my secretary” look.LESTER - Oh. No. T-that – it’s different when guys do it.DEAN - Really?LESTER - Yeah. It’s called “science”.DEAN - Oh.LESTER - Men aren’t built for monogamy…because of evolution. We’re – we’re – we’re programmed, you know, to –to spread our seed.[DEAN punches him]LESTER - Ohh! Ow!DEAN - Like I said – loser, with a capital “L,” rhymes with “you suck.”LESTER - Yeah, well, you’re a punk-ass demon! And you work for me now. So get in there and do your job, you freak!DEAN - [glares] And what are you gonna do? You gonna watch, huh? Is that what you like to do, Lester? Watch? Well, watch this. [boop]

The boop was mine. He knifes him. Because Lester was an insulting dick…..…..to Dean. He punched Lester out of annoyance, because he’d showed up for the murder, which Dean found idiotic, as well as just being a loser in general.

If he’d wanted him dead because woo!feminism, he’d have done it after that “Oh” or in place of the punch. 

Any way we slice Dean’s various incarnations - demon, purgatory, MoC - and who he’s dealt with - Steins, angels, Dick Roman, Cole, pick a given situation/topic - he doesn’t suffer douchebags kindly. Sometimes they get a LOOK, sometimes they get a beat-down, sometimes they get snark, sometimes they get insulted, and moments of douchebaggery from friends/family ain’t exempted.

And folks, that’s okay. That’s fine. I dunno about you, but I like my characters layered and screwed up and awesome and tough and vulnerable - I’m a selfish gal. We can still adore the package while taking issue with the parts. It’s how we get redemptive moments, can’t have one without the other. 

Oh, and a not-demon-Dean for the road, believe I mentioned it above - from the episode about Horseman Famine, 5x14:

CASTIEL - […] What I don’t understand is…where is your hunger, Dean?DEAN - Huh?CASTIEL - Well, slowly but surely, everyone in this town is falling prey to Famine, but so far, you seem unaffected.DEAN - Hey, when I want to drink, I drink…..

…..Same goes for a sandwich or a fight.CASTIEL - So… you’re saying you’re just well-adjusted?DEAN - God, no. I’m just well-fed.

.

So sayeth the Nash…. so sayeth the Dean…. so say we all.

[anothershadeofpurple]

You're sort of an E-Celebrity. The meta that you and Alabama miles created was once mentioned in a tweet by T.V something. Do you sometimes worry about the influence you have on people's minds, given today's social climate, and the laziness of others? Do you get scared that people can bend, if they don't use their minds? Or do you not worry about that sort of thing because you feel like people should be responsible for their perception? How do you do this? How does shady do what she does?

Hey Anon,

I both think that people are responsible for their own perception and that I have a responsibility to present myself in a truthful way. Everything you ever read is colored by the perspective and the worldview of the author. Even something like Wikipedia with multiple authors will simply give you a truth based on the most prevalent worldview - or the publicly accepted worldview - at that point in time. Truth shifts with perspective. Critical thinking is something that develops. If you’re lucky you have people guiding you, if not, maybe you get burned before you get smart. That’s how we learn and it’s an evolving process for the rest of our lives. As a writer you cannot write for everyone. You can’t meet everyone at their level and you cannot choose your audience or what it uses your writing for. You can try to reach a specific audience, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. If you publish anything on some level you have to accept that your words will be misunderstood, taken out of context and used to prove the opposite of what you’re trying to say. The alternative is silence.

I have a few things that I do that are ethical decisions connected to this. As I mentioned before, everything anyone ever writes is colored. What I try to do is to show you my goggles. Our goggles are made out of our social class, culture, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity… and just generally all of our life experiences. Imagine it as if I am wearing green goggles and I am describing you the world in green, because that’s how I see everything. What I try to do in order for people to read me critically is to pull back and also describe the frame of these green goggles from time to time on top of the reality I see. 

In practice, that means I will often use “I”-messages. “I think this…”, “I feel…”, “…at least that’s how I see it.”. It’s an invitation for people to be aware of subjectivity. It’s encouragement to ‘do as I do’ and not ‘as I say’. Analyze, think, feel for yourself. Sometimes I’ll include anecdotes and personal experiences, which serves to inform, but it also shows emotional involvement that again, might color my perspective. It’s something I consciously include. 

Dumb positivity is another way to be more objective. They are another description of the goggles. It means ‘in this post I am specifically looking at the queer subtext and the queer reading’. In every other case where the subtext in a tv show doesn’t specifically relate to homosexuality we could be sure that foreshadowing is really foreshadowing and that symbolism will become meaningful in text. The only reason we can’t be sure in the case of Once Upon a Time is because at some point in history queer subtext was divorced from main text to tell secret stories, cause it was the only thing we were allowed. Every story has subtext, it’s a general storytelling tool. We live in a strange time where it could be either. We’re starting to see more queer stories told openly and at the same time this historical storytelling device lives on and is still being used. Dumb positivity is about not having to repeat this awareness of history in every post. It’s about not reminding or focusing on the reason why we got here in the first place - discrimination and homophobia - but on the validity of our stories regardless of how they are told.

The other choice I make is to try and never shame people or be disrespectful toward people who have different opinions. Making people feel ashamed - for example by calling them stupid or naive - causes people to stop focusing on what is being said. Instead they will be digging in their personal history to defend who they are. Or they will stop talking to you or to anyone, but they won’t change their minds. I know when I am personally under attack the first reflex is emotional, it’s about self protection, so why would that be different for others? It seems counter-productive if what you’re after is a meaningful exchange of perspective.

Similarly, even if I get very negative messages I will still try and look at what they are saying and wonder if there is truth there, wonder if they have a point. I seek out other parts of the fandom and try to understand their point of view. I won’t always publicly address this, but it’s something I use to check myself. I try to face my shadow. Of course it is nice to be read, to get feedback, to have people ask you questions. To be po-pu-la-a-ar. Of course there is ego involved. I think the only thing you can do is to be aware of this and to try and correct yourself if you find out if it interferes with your being truthful.

Last but not least, I do take into account the context of where I am writing. Say I would have arrived in this fandom and I hadn’t seen anyone mentioning the possibility of queer baiting or criticize the problematic aspects of the show… I probably would have. Right now there is plenty of criticism and everyone is aware of the possibility of queer baiting. The information is there and I can’t imagine people who have been around for a while haven’t been exposed to all the different views and they are choosing what resonates with them. So it’s also a matter of this blog not happening in a vacuum.

The part that seems to confuse people most about my blog - or where some seem to think I’m lying for popularity or attention - is that I genuinely believe it is more likely than not that they’ll make the romantic subtext between Emma & Regina text eventually. I think anyone who has read, engaged with and understood OperationOUT completely, understands where I am coming from. However, many people are angry about the show - for good reason - so I am not actively going to invite people to invest their time and energy in reading about a show they hate just so they can understand me. What I can’t do is lie about my perceptions of the show just because it’s somehow perceived less shameful to be wrong when you were being cynical. I think I’d rather be fearless, truthful and wrong then.

Does that answer your questions?

PS: I have no knowledge of our meta ever being tweeted by… someone at TV something. Do you have a link?