#pre52

[spite-and-waffles]

The Complete Nightwing (Pre-52)

Google Drive link and Complete List of Nightwing Issues and Extras under the cut.

(Please let me know if you want me to upload anything else)

Link to Google Drive

Other references: Post-Crisis Dick Grayson timeline by @bitimdrake

Other Google Drive Links:

New Teen Titans

Titans Vol. 1

Outsiders Vol. 3

Titans Vol. 2

See also (lists only, drive not yet uploaded):

Complete Chronological List of Pre-52 Batman storylines and collected editions

Complete list of Batman Vol. 1 issues (1986–2011)

Complete list of Pre-52 Detective Comics (1986–2011)

Complete list of Shadow of the Bat Vol. 1 (1992–2000)

Complete list of Legends of the Dark Knight Vol. 1 issues & issue collections

Complete list of Gotham Knights Vol. 1 (2000–2006)

Complete list of Batman Mini-series (1986–2011)

Complete List of Batman One-Shots

Complete list of Streets of Gotham Vol. 1 issues (2009–2011)

Complete List of The Batman Chronicles Vol. 1 (1995–2001)

Complete List of Batman Elseworlds stories

Complete List of Pre-52 Batgirl issues

[welcometogrouchland]

[ID in ALT] Steph and Damian doodle! This taps a bit into their pre-52 dynamic so that's what I was thinking design wise at first but I wanted to draw it w their more recent designs as well to stay hashtag current and topical, so you get both/a fusion, lol

[kittykatninja321]

Brothers in Blood but instead of framing Dick for murder Jason's doing full on Hannibal Lecter shit like meticulously set up traps and situations and fucked up trolley problems and psychological manipulation trying to coerce Dick into organically murdering someone himself. Why? They were doing anything with Jason's character in this era, why not. Lets get psychological with it

[beeceit]

"I want my fics to have as accurate to canon characterization I can possibly write. I'm reading literally every tim drake appearance pre new52 before I publish this fic to make sure I really understand him. I'm making the most coherent timeline I can out of canon events to make this work"

[remembers what Jason Todd was like in 2009 when red robin dropped]

"....one exception"

[lesbian-cowpoke]

I'm gonna be honest I need someone to explain wtf is the DC timeline.

Cause like. I get everything pre-flashpoint. Then n52 happens and my brain breaks.

I'm specifically asking because I'm trying to piece together Stephanie's timeline.

So like. In the n52 she basically never met the bats before and was spoiler again. That timeline carried to rebirth. And in the Batmen Eternal storyline... Tim like... found/was given tech/brother eye from the pre52 future? Cause like it's from the pre52 timeline just in the future? And it shows Steph and Cass that they used to be batgirls in that timeline?

And then. I don't know. They become batgirls again? And like. Steph's old history is back???

Idk. I'm very confused help please.

[roseworth]

Hi sorry not to be weird but you're the local Rose expert and I was wondering if you could help me? I'm trying to figure out what ethnic group Lili Worth belongs to. I know she's from Cambodia so logic says she would most likely be Khmer, but the fact that she was fleeing the Khmer Rouge puts that kinda in doubt for me? I've seen a few things saying she's Hmong which would make sense as they were a minority group during the Cambodian Genocide but they're a pretty small portion of the population and I haven't seen anything canon supporting it, just fan posts. When it comes to Lili I've really only read Deathstroke the Terminator (1991) so I'm not super familiar with her. Sorry for any trouble!

!!! no trouble at all <3

as far as i know it never specifically said which ethnic group she was pre-52, but in deathstroke #15 slade says that lili was a "local princess in the siem pang"

honestly i dont know a lot about the different ethnic groups in cambodia but google says that the common ethnic groups in the siem pang are the khmer and lao. i guess we can assume shes lao since she was fleeing the khmer rouge? but unfortunately the real answer is that marv wolfman put 0 thought into any of this

but then. in deathstroke #43 suddenly she says she was trained by the khmer rouge??? idk if this is a retcon or if we're supposed to assume that they trained her to fight while she was imprisoned???? odd choices all around tbh

so short answer: its not specified and wolfman probably didnt even consider any of it for more than 5 seconds

but!!! during rebirth in deathstroke (2016) she and rose are confirmed hmong!

and they've been hmong ever since <3

[evilwickedme]

The least important hill I will die on is that Tim and Jason are NOT two years apart I keep seeing this but it's BULLSHIT. Jason and Tim both have summer birthdays. Jason dies at 15 in April. Tim becomes robin A FEW MONTHS LATER at 13. Unless a few months later is suddenly two or less (esp since to my recollection it's actually stated to be six months but that might be wrong) Tim will have turned 13 in July and he in fact would have been 12 in April when Jason died so they are three years apart ok GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS IT'S BASIC MATH. This doesn't matter in the least nowadays since they fucked it up in post52 continuing by not letting Tim age but on principile I need y'all to stop giving this two year age difference figure it's not correct!!!!

CHECK REBLOG FOR FULL TIMELINE FYI

[sassylittlecanary]

A DC fan I know keeps referring to Babs as one of the “Batkids” and it’s taking everything in me not to explode into flames

[spite-and-waffles]

Yes I know COIE was 1985. But I feel like the darker, grittier leanings of the Post-Crisis universe didn't really set in till 1987. And I know Final Night and Identity Crisis weren't the same as the other universe resets, but there's a distinct difference in flavour in the 1998–2003 era of comics from the earlier post-Zero Hour ones, and Identity Crisis coincided with Didio's takeover of DC as executive editor, shifted the tone of the DCU drastically, and set the stage for Infinite Crisis.

[thelittleredheadedmusician]

I write some really niche fics (hopefully some of you just went “no shit, that’s why we’re here” and some went “no shit! Tell more!”) but I feel a little more vindicated for my series of Mia Dearden & John Constantine being reluctant friends fics. I initially justified it as a “Ollie met John once & Dinah is friends with Zatanna so she probably heard of him if not met him once or twice so Mia could have heard of him thru them” AND GUESS FUCKING WHAT. AS OF THE CURRENT BOP ISSUE DINAH NOT ONLY KNOWS JOHN BUT THEY’RE ON DECENT TERMS AND HE KNOWS OLLIE TOO SO LIKE *insert Brooklyn 99 VINDICATION meme here*

[kingcygnus]

so i guess tim is back to being an orphan... i love comic continuity and linear storytelling, this definitely doesn't make shit confusing

[kittykatninja321]

Pre 52: resurrected by superboy prime punch cosmic glitch. Digs self out of grave. Gets hit by a car. Talia finds him catatonic. Gets dunked in the Lazarus pit. Goes on murder training tour

Rhato: Talia resurrects him with the Lazerus pit. Drops him off at magic ninja daycare. Spends a few years there then joins up with the league of assassins for a little bit. Leaves the league eventually

[dickgreyson]

its like hes the only one who knows its meant to be fun

so much more whimsy in a dick grayson batman run, like sure you watch him get devoured by the city and crushed under the weight of the cowl, but also he has a bat unicycle

[roseworth]

also re my last post. you would not believe how disappointed i was when i realized rose would be a zombie in this au. i started planning what she would be up to then i remembered that she died twice in robin 21 and i refuse to break my own rules 💔

[casscainmainly]

I think the recent Cass and Jason discussion is very interesting bc like, Jason or even steph in her first appearance take these actions of righteous, murderous (or near murderous) justice bc of the fact that not only have they've been abused, but they're also able to recognise that fact, and feel that despite everything, they didn't deserve to suffer like that (Jason with his murder, Steph with her childhood abuse)

Whereas Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it. She resents David for being a killer and making her love him, for making her a killer, but rarely for the actual abuse that came with her training. She eventually recognises it right before the end of pre-52 in batgirl 2008, but not after a long time, and she still tries to save David at the very end after contemplating letting him die.

she does grows to resent Bruce after some time, and confronts him, showing that she's slowly gaining higher expectations for how she should be treated after developing relationships outside the batfamily (coincidentally with Steph, someone who can relate over having a shitty dad, along with her love interests like Kon and Tai)- though Bruce, despite his multitudes of bad parenting moments never truly abuses cass like david did, so there's nuance, and after her fight with bruce, she still has trouble fully reckoning with her abuse (still calls david shooting her 'a game' in front of tim- she knows its wrong but still doesn't act upset about the fact it happened to her).

She kind of sees all the training she went through as a necessary evil in order to have the skills to be a hero- which is somewhat true, but I think it also contributes to her being unable to see herself, even partially, as a victim for large portions of her narrative.

She can understand abuse as something that molds you into a killer, she can't understand being abused and then choosing to be a killer bc of the righteous fury you have at what happened. In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing. That's the worst thing Cain ever did to her and the reason she ran away. She can't understand someone like Jason choosing it as a way to cope/deal with abuse.

I don't think this is necessarily a ground breaking thought but I think abuse is an interesting lense to look at both Jason and Cass' stories- pre52, Jason's story is about continuing a cycle of abuse. Criminals hurt him, he hurts criminals, and anyone who gets in his way of hurting the criminals, bc even tho he pursues justice, he also pursues retribution, which is hard to do justly. Between that and the whole zombie/living ghost thing, it's downright gothic. Whereas Cass' story is about breaking out of a cycle of abuse- nobody dies bc she let one person die and will never let it happen again. It's just an interesting way to view their differences I think. Good Cass and Jason posts recently!

I LOVE THIS!! I absolutely think abuse informs the way Jay and Cass see the world (and Steph - Steph, in many ways, is the median point between Jason and Cass).

It's the fundamental question that drives Jason and Cass apart. For Cass, her question is: how can I be the victim if I'm the villain? And for Jason, the question is more: how can I be the villain if I'm the victim?

I love this line: "Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it." This is doubly complicated by the genuine love David Cain had for her - that panel of them watching the stars kills me every time. This is another key difference between Jason and Cass' abuse (taking Jason's abuse to be his death) - Jason had no love for the Joker, but Cass did love David Cain.

It's why it's so easy for Jason to want to kill the Joker, and so hard for Cass to even be angry at her father. And your point here - "In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing" - is absolutely on point, because Jason's conception of abuse is the helplessness of being murdered. They are both acting in ways to prevent what abuse means in their minds: as Batgirl, Cass will never have to kill again, and as Red Hood, Jason will never have to be helpless in the face of murderers again.

Any rebuke of their moral codes feels like a denial of the abuse they suffered. It's why Cass can't allow others to kill, and why Jason can't accept Bruce's reasoning for not killing the Joker. It's why these versions of them could never get along. Argh there's been such good Cass and Jason commentary recently, they drive me insane!!!