#pre52

[welcometogrouchland]

[ID in ALT] Steph and Damian doodle! This taps a bit into their pre-52 dynamic so that's what I was thinking design wise at first but I wanted to draw it w their more recent designs as well to stay hashtag current and topical, so you get both/a fusion, lol

[problematic-aroace]

It always baffles me when people say [*insert literally ANY female batfam member and I garauntee this will apply*] isn’t an interesting character and has no character depth… and then go tearing up anyone who so much as IMPLIES that their favourite [*insert any batboi and I promise u it will apply*] isn’t as great as is often said.

Barbara, Kori and Zatana would like to beg to differ from how a lot of people talk about Dick lol

Jason doesn’t even have a consistent character bitch. He can go from the only guy in the batfam to help a grandma across the road to a fucking villain. Why aren’t you saying he doesn’t have any character depth when the writers can’t even decide if he has a character 💀

Timothy fucking Drake has been tossed the fuck around since they removed him from YJ

I have no slander for Duke & Damian lol.

Wdym Kate Kane isn’t complex?? Have you even READ her comics??? CASSANDRA FUCKING CAIN???? Stephanie Brown is more motivated by spite and anger than all the batbois combined AND. IT. SHOWS. Barbara can beat the shit out of everyone in a fucking wheelchair y’all 💀

[kittykatninja321]

Brothers in Blood but instead of framing Dick for murder Jason's doing full on Hannibal Lecter shit like meticulously set up traps and situations and fucked up trolley problems and psychological manipulation trying to coerce Dick into organically murdering someone himself. Why? They were doing anything with Jason's character in this era, why not. Lets get psychological with it

[beeceit]

"I want my fics to have as accurate to canon characterization I can possibly write. I'm reading literally every tim drake appearance pre new52 before I publish this fic to make sure I really understand him. I'm making the most coherent timeline I can out of canon events to make this work"

[remembers what Jason Todd was like in 2009 when red robin dropped]

"....one exception"

[lesbian-cowpoke]

I'm gonna be honest I need someone to explain wtf is the DC timeline.

Cause like. I get everything pre-flashpoint. Then n52 happens and my brain breaks.

I'm specifically asking because I'm trying to piece together Stephanie's timeline.

So like. In the n52 she basically never met the bats before and was spoiler again. That timeline carried to rebirth. And in the Batmen Eternal storyline... Tim like... found/was given tech/brother eye from the pre52 future? Cause like it's from the pre52 timeline just in the future? And it shows Steph and Cass that they used to be batgirls in that timeline?

And then. I don't know. They become batgirls again? And like. Steph's old history is back???

Idk. I'm very confused help please.

[roseworth]

Hi sorry not to be weird but you're the local Rose expert and I was wondering if you could help me? I'm trying to figure out what ethnic group Lili Worth belongs to. I know she's from Cambodia so logic says she would most likely be Khmer, but the fact that she was fleeing the Khmer Rouge puts that kinda in doubt for me? I've seen a few things saying she's Hmong which would make sense as they were a minority group during the Cambodian Genocide but they're a pretty small portion of the population and I haven't seen anything canon supporting it, just fan posts. When it comes to Lili I've really only read Deathstroke the Terminator (1991) so I'm not super familiar with her. Sorry for any trouble!

!!! no trouble at all <3

as far as i know it never specifically said which ethnic group she was pre-52, but in deathstroke #15 slade says that lili was a "local princess in the siem pang"

honestly i dont know a lot about the different ethnic groups in cambodia but google says that the common ethnic groups in the siem pang are the khmer and lao. i guess we can assume shes lao since she was fleeing the khmer rouge? but unfortunately the real answer is that marv wolfman put 0 thought into any of this

but then. in deathstroke #43 suddenly she says she was trained by the khmer rouge??? idk if this is a retcon or if we're supposed to assume that they trained her to fight while she was imprisoned???? odd choices all around tbh

so short answer: its not specified and wolfman probably didnt even consider any of it for more than 5 seconds

but!!! during rebirth in deathstroke (2016) she and rose are confirmed hmong!

and they've been hmong ever since <3

[ccainsblade]

very interested to see how mark waid is going to intertwine all of dc’s timelines bc the differences in all of them…. yeah im afraid

[evilwickedme]

The least important hill I will die on is that Tim and Jason are NOT two years apart I keep seeing this but it's BULLSHIT. Jason and Tim both have summer birthdays. Jason dies at 15 in April. Tim becomes robin A FEW MONTHS LATER at 13. Unless a few months later is suddenly two or less (esp since to my recollection it's actually stated to be six months but that might be wrong) Tim will have turned 13 in July and he in fact would have been 12 in April when Jason died so they are three years apart ok GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS IT'S BASIC MATH. This doesn't matter in the least nowadays since they fucked it up in post52 continuing by not letting Tim age but on principile I need y'all to stop giving this two year age difference figure it's not correct!!!!

CHECK REBLOG FOR FULL TIMELINE FYI

[thelittleredheadedmusician]

I write some really niche fics (hopefully some of you just went “no shit, that’s why we’re here” and some went “no shit! Tell more!”) but I feel a little more vindicated for my series of Mia Dearden & John Constantine being reluctant friends fics. I initially justified it as a “Ollie met John once & Dinah is friends with Zatanna so she probably heard of him if not met him once or twice so Mia could have heard of him thru them” AND GUESS FUCKING WHAT. AS OF THE CURRENT BOP ISSUE DINAH NOT ONLY KNOWS JOHN BUT THEY’RE ON DECENT TERMS AND HE KNOWS OLLIE TOO SO LIKE *insert Brooklyn 99 VINDICATION meme here*

[kingcygnus]

so i guess tim is back to being an orphan... i love comic continuity and linear storytelling, this definitely doesn't make shit confusing

[kittykatninja321]

Pre 52: resurrected by superboy prime punch cosmic glitch. Digs self out of grave. Gets hit by a car. Talia finds him catatonic. Gets dunked in the Lazarus pit. Goes on murder training tour

Rhato: Talia resurrects him with the Lazerus pit. Drops him off at magic ninja daycare. Spends a few years there then joins up with the league of assassins for a little bit. Leaves the league eventually

[problematic-aroace]

@duskdog I kept forgetting to reply to this, but I’m so with you. I absolutely hated how Bruce treated her on a general scale, but as you said that’s just what made the good moments stick out.

To me it’s way less about Bruce being good to her but more about what their relationship would be on a healthier scale. Like, if Bruce’s head wasn’t so far up his ass about Jason, they could’ve had a great relationship. I honestly believe that if a certain guy didn’t want to kill her off, Steph would’ve grown on Bruce, like people forget around the start of Stephanie’s Robin, the writers themselves intended to have Steph as Robin for at least a bit longer, but you know the rest of the story. So maybe Bruce and Steph would’ve grown on each other if their time wasn’t cut short. Even in Batgirl Bruce and Steph had a pretty stable relationship which was great but I still don’t believe Bruce and Steph would have a great relationship I just think it’d be a less dramatic version of Bruce and Jay’s relationship

People LOVE to talk about Steph annoying Bruce but you guys have NO idea how much panels where Bruce is generally just being really nice to Steph means to me...

In (i think) two seperate panels: Steph: "God i've been talking to much..." Bruce: "It's Okay. I enjoy the company." Steph, who has probably never been told that her whole life at that point: ":D"

(Of course this is VERY paraphrased) Steph: "Why aren't we using the batmobile?" Bruce: "You like the batmobile. Noted. Now we shall only use the batmobile unless we REALLY need to walk."

Steph: "Can I drive the Batmobile?" Bruce: "No." Steph: "I can drive!" Bruce: "You know I'm a human lie detector, right?" Steph: "Mock me at your peril, masked man." Steph: "You'll teach me how to fly the batplane tho- right?" Bruce: "Some time before your 35th birthday. I promise." Steph: >:P Bruce: :) <3

Actually you could say most wholesome BruceSteph interactions go like this: Steph: "I suck..." Bruce: "No you don't. I like you." Steph: <3

Im pretty sure whenever Steph is annoying Bruce, Bruce is secretly okay with it.

[roseworth]

also re my last post. you would not believe how disappointed i was when i realized rose would be a zombie in this au. i started planning what she would be up to then i remembered that she died twice in robin 21 and i refuse to break my own rules 💔

[casscainmainly]

I think the recent Cass and Jason discussion is very interesting bc like, Jason or even steph in her first appearance take these actions of righteous, murderous (or near murderous) justice bc of the fact that not only have they've been abused, but they're also able to recognise that fact, and feel that despite everything, they didn't deserve to suffer like that (Jason with his murder, Steph with her childhood abuse)

Whereas Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it. She resents David for being a killer and making her love him, for making her a killer, but rarely for the actual abuse that came with her training. She eventually recognises it right before the end of pre-52 in batgirl 2008, but not after a long time, and she still tries to save David at the very end after contemplating letting him die.

she does grows to resent Bruce after some time, and confronts him, showing that she's slowly gaining higher expectations for how she should be treated after developing relationships outside the batfamily (coincidentally with Steph, someone who can relate over having a shitty dad, along with her love interests like Kon and Tai)- though Bruce, despite his multitudes of bad parenting moments never truly abuses cass like david did, so there's nuance, and after her fight with bruce, she still has trouble fully reckoning with her abuse (still calls david shooting her 'a game' in front of tim- she knows its wrong but still doesn't act upset about the fact it happened to her).

She kind of sees all the training she went through as a necessary evil in order to have the skills to be a hero- which is somewhat true, but I think it also contributes to her being unable to see herself, even partially, as a victim for large portions of her narrative.

She can understand abuse as something that molds you into a killer, she can't understand being abused and then choosing to be a killer bc of the righteous fury you have at what happened. In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing. That's the worst thing Cain ever did to her and the reason she ran away. She can't understand someone like Jason choosing it as a way to cope/deal with abuse.

I don't think this is necessarily a ground breaking thought but I think abuse is an interesting lense to look at both Jason and Cass' stories- pre52, Jason's story is about continuing a cycle of abuse. Criminals hurt him, he hurts criminals, and anyone who gets in his way of hurting the criminals, bc even tho he pursues justice, he also pursues retribution, which is hard to do justly. Between that and the whole zombie/living ghost thing, it's downright gothic. Whereas Cass' story is about breaking out of a cycle of abuse- nobody dies bc she let one person die and will never let it happen again. It's just an interesting way to view their differences I think. Good Cass and Jason posts recently!

I LOVE THIS!! I absolutely think abuse informs the way Jay and Cass see the world (and Steph - Steph, in many ways, is the median point between Jason and Cass).

It's the fundamental question that drives Jason and Cass apart. For Cass, her question is: how can I be the victim if I'm the villain? And for Jason, the question is more: how can I be the villain if I'm the victim?

I love this line: "Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it." This is doubly complicated by the genuine love David Cain had for her - that panel of them watching the stars kills me every time. This is another key difference between Jason and Cass' abuse (taking Jason's abuse to be his death) - Jason had no love for the Joker, but Cass did love David Cain.

It's why it's so easy for Jason to want to kill the Joker, and so hard for Cass to even be angry at her father. And your point here - "In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing" - is absolutely on point, because Jason's conception of abuse is the helplessness of being murdered. They are both acting in ways to prevent what abuse means in their minds: as Batgirl, Cass will never have to kill again, and as Red Hood, Jason will never have to be helpless in the face of murderers again.

Any rebuke of their moral codes feels like a denial of the abuse they suffered. It's why Cass can't allow others to kill, and why Jason can't accept Bruce's reasoning for not killing the Joker. It's why these versions of them could never get along. Argh there's been such good Cass and Jason commentary recently, they drive me insane!!!

[welcometogrouchland]

Its all good man, I'm major busy atm too. Good point about how Steph's gender is a core part of her character in the sense that her female relationships are as important as, say, her experiences with gendered violence. I think a lot about her relationship to female mentorship, re: Cass, Dinah and Babs. All very complex relationships with a lot of rough patches but you can tell that when they're good, especially w/ the batgirls, all of them feel very...seen, I guess. Encouraged.

But yeah Steph and Nocturna's dynamic has been revisited approximately twice since this initial arc and i find both instances interesting but lackluster- there's one post-crisis in the gotham gazette mini, which is sort of a thematic prologue to Steph's batgirl run (lots of talk about how Steph's been left behind by the batfamily but is still fighting, how people return to Gotham despite everyrhing fkr a second chance- all of which shows up in Steph's BG run). Nocturna's comitting a robbery, Steph stops her (and weirdly has invisibility tech?? That she stole and is never brought up again??? Okay?) Its overall not a very significant interaction, just interesting that they pull on nocturna as a rogue for Steph instead of any of her dad's gang. I like that.

(Gotham Gazette: Batman Alive? #1)

Post-Flashpoint (and post-rebirth and infinite frontier...i think?) Steph and Nocturna interact in road to dark crisis #1 where we have a story about Nocturna taking advantage of Batmans 'death' to rob a museum, only to have a sort of hostile heart-to-heart with Steph, who talks her out of it. It's an interesting little appearance for multiple reasons? It seemingly tries to canonize every version of nocturna as one, using pre-crisis nocturna as a reference for flashback art, referencing her robin 93 version by having her already know Steph (and know her civilian name too weirdly? HC that was one of the things Steph told Nocturna on the roof ig) AND referencing her post-52 version just via design and whatnot.

(road to dark crisis #1)

Certainly doesnt work continuity wise but that was kinda the motto with the dark crisis era soft reboot. Also implies Steph was chillin' with Jason's adoptive mom. Funny to me

Anyway it doesn't get too into the weeds of nocturna and Steph's history and in fact most of it is actually about how they're feeling about Batman being gone (so, second time they've reunited post-batman seemingly dying. If i had a nickle, etc etc).

It's interesting to contrast how Steph feels in dark crisis compared to how she expressed herself in, say, world's finest #4, and it's also interesting that even tho Nocturna tries to needle Steph's insecurities (and she doesn't let it get to her, which, good for her!) implying she's inferior to the "real heroes", Nocturna seems to bring out some vulnerability in Steph.

It feels like it could tie into her whole ~lower inhibitions~ thing she had going on (could've been a cute use of the spoiler ninja mask actually) but that's not really said.

(road to dark crisis #1)

(sidenote: Clayton Henry is a very talented artist but man this may be the absolute worst the spoiler suit has ever looked post-flashpoint. Too shiny, Symbol is an off-purple shade and overlapping the paneling, no texture on the paneling. Frightening stuff here)

Again it's just an interesting pull for a Steph rogue and also interesting to me that they keep pairing nocturna with Steph during times of uncertainty/upheaval in Steph's life (not counting their first meeting which is actually one of the more stable periods of Steph's on-page life probably), considering how pre-52 nocturna was all about getting people to Reveal Truths n junk (via her weird girl astrology and pheremone powers).

Neither interaction references the 'sisterhood' they once shared (which makes sense bc it was only a few days in canon and ended w/ nat getting sent to S.T.A.R labs by Steph) but it still feels like there's untapped potential there between the two of them.

Finally re-reading Robin 101-104 (the nocturna arc) bc I remember being intrigued but overwhelmed the first time and looking back I really, really enjoy it (it's timsteph at their most enjoyable and has decent balance between the conflict in Tim's life and the inner workings of Steph's life, which was always unequal in Dixon's robin to the point of being slightly infuriating) but an interesting addendum to what you were saying a bit ago visa vie Steph's costume: Nocturna keeps saying to Steph "I see the colours you wear" as a means of arguing that her and Steph have some Fundamental Aspect in common. Which is potentially connected to womenhood/feminity? Said bc Natalia calls her "little sister" during the second time she mentions the colours Steph wears and bc Steph connects hers and Natalia's experiences of gendered violence in her head. I also mentioned in my comments on that post that the pink/purple colour choice feels connected to Steph's status as the 'young girl' character of the batman cast at the time (since Cass' character actively subverts a lot of teen girl stereotypes that Steph's character more incorporates and is in conversation with, Buffy Summers-style) so that feels like a personal win lol. Tbh a connection between Steph and Nocturna over ~feminine energy~ is kind of fitting from a modern lens considering like, modern tiktok influencer 'woo woo crystal energy' spiritual girlie phrases and buzzwords that sucker young girls into believing a bunch of borderline medievalist garbage.

Which got me thinking about Steph and Nocturna and how brief their relationship is but how interesting it is and how it's been referenced and revisited briefly in modern continuity but that's a whole other can of worms. Wish someone would take the time at DC to sort out the continuity between Nocturna's tbh, pre-crisis post-crisis and post-flashpoint all feel so different I can't reconcile them really, even tho post-crisis and post-flashpoint are meant to be the same(?) now.

Anyway yeah. Random Steph and Nocturna thoughts as I reread this arc! Hope they give some food for thought

Thank you for this! Im always so happy to see I got an ask from you, you always have such great Steph takes and thoughts.

I totally get how this arc can feel overwhelming. On one hand, I adore how much detail and nuance Jon Lewis brings to the table when it comes to Steph, and I definitely appreciate how we get so much of her internal monologue aside Tims, really emphasizing her perspective as a valid and important one. (As you point out, this stands fairly in contrast to Dixons approach). But on the other hand: there’s so much fucking internal dialogue. Swaths of it. It’s a lot sometimes, especially when it’s not broken up, and (for me at least) is sometimes easy to get lost reading.

(Also have to confess something: i didn’t realize Natalia was meant to be a version of Nocturna. Whoops. Definitely good to know, thanks.)

Big fan of the take about Stephs costume and femininity. Especially fun to look at this in contrast to Cass. Like you mentioned, Cass stands in contrast to the expected archetypes and trappings of a teen girl character, while Steph tends to conform to them. (Which is especially ironic to me given Cass begins with the explicitly gendered title ‘Batgirl’ while Spoiler is gender neutral.)

Steph being a female character is (for better or worse) essential to how her character is treated on every level. Misogyny and especially sexualization and sexual violence are kind of core parts of her character. Unlike Cass, Steph isnt detached from femininity, she is constantly reasserted to be part of it and hurt by her association with it, both through the sexual violence she is threatened with consistently and more than that through the way she can be narratively treated, dumbed down and villainized and discarded when convenient.

But Steph’s ‘femaleness’ can also be core to her character in a (somewhat) positive way. Her strongest familal relationship (while rocky) is by far her relationship with her mother. While pretty much every male relative in her life we see is some degree of absolutely shitty, Crystal and Steph’s relationship is deep and compelling and genuinely touching.

One of the first missions she gave herself as Spoiler was to track down Jim Murray: for the specific reason of protecting other young girls he might try to prey upon.

So given that, I’m interested the read of Steph’s femininity as connected to the purple of her costume. Given how often is Steph doomed or defined by her femininity I think it’s interesting to have it grounded in her costumes coloration as well, for better or worse.

Anyways, another bit of the connection between Nocturna and Steph and femininity which you got me thinking of is the moment where Steph tries to contact Natalia’s mother.

Maybe it’s just because I’ve had Crystal and Steph’s relationship on the brain so much recently, but it’s so interesting to me that Steph thinks to try to contact Natalias mom.

Especially as a character who we know spent a long long time seeing Crystal as unreliable or unsafe to confide in, and who Steph is at times more accustomed to seeing as someone she has to take care of instead of Vice versa.

Maybe this is because they’re in between these rough points right now. Steph is probably experiencing a high point in their relationship. (Crystal is clean and present, they’ve commiserated over how shitty Arthur is, and Steph has gotten a lot more time getting used to her mom wanting to be there for her.)

Good point about the whole ‘feminine energy’ spiritualistic stuff w Noctura retaining relevance, huge agree.

Their relationship is just generally very interesting, with the ‘little sister’ of course, and Steph seeing Natalia as a child to some degree, and their connection through music. I also find her convo w Steph with the stars just so enduringly touching, definitely a highlight for me.

(And who fucking knows w continuity at this point. It’s rough out here. Also, didn’t know her and Steph’s interactions had been revisited, that’s very interesting, good to know.)

Anyway great thoughts as always, thanks for the ask, and sorry this took like literally forever to respond to I’ve been stupid busy.