#ppl can ship whatever they want i do not care but it's so infuriating when they claim it's universal when they pulled it out of their arses

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

"we all agree that there's no non-shippy explanation for this scene right" and it's literally one character calling another son/kid/bro/sis/any moniker typically used to signify platonic affection

[solarsleepless]

for me it was just never my cup of tea to begin with, so like, agree to disagree, but i never really saw it?? but to each their own, people can ship whatever they want as long as it's not like, glorifying abuse or pedophilia or whatever, so i didn't really care.

i do agree with how fans of lumity and huntlow have butchered the obviously ND characters. i was there in 2020 (although i did come in particularly late) and i saw how people dumbed luz down because of her adhd, and i completely understand how the infantilisation has had the same effect on hunter and it fucking sucks, the veiled ableism of it all.

however, the reason why i say it's like steve is because i love hunter, i really, really do i promise, he's such a tragic character and i love him in so many ways, but as someone who has been in both the st fandom and the owl house fandom, it's been so fucking annoying to see how these two male characters completely dominate the fandom. huntlow spread like wildfire, and like say what you want but they don't nearly have the development they should have to be in a relationship (i understand they didn't actually get into a relationship, however it's hinted at.) i also get that at least a lot of this is the mouse's fault, but knowing that doesn't magically make them develop better (IN MY EYES).

i love hunter so much but as someone who's been in the fandom since s1 and who's favourite character is luz by far, it's infuriating to see luz get pushed aside IN HER OWN DAMN SHOW. in the "hurt luz noceda tags" it feels like there's more fics about how both hunter and luz are hurt than just about luz herself. i love hunter, and he's far more deserving of the attention than steve harrington is, but the way they treat it like The Hunter Show when luz is the protagonist just... pisses me off a lot. not to mention that the fandom has a HISTORY of doing this to luz: even before lumity, apparently ppl joined because they'd heard about eda. and i watched toh because of lumity! NONE of it has been about luz who is one of the best protagonists in media imo. i'm not saying i wish hunter's fandom was smaller, i just wish luz's was bigger.

also, a peeve of mine is the whole bi4pan thing. it's great that dana terrace has confirmed it but it is not representation to me. we never see hunter attracted to guys, and we never see willow attracted to girls. and we've seen how easy it is to pull off (s1 luz blushing at both edric and emira, "i've got a new crush, and her name is education!"). it's great that bi and pan people can see themselves in these characters and that dana terrace has fed the headcanon, but it is not representation because it is never represented.

so all those combined factors really make me just.... not a big fan of huntlow. this isn't to start an argument, it's to explain my side as people who have vastly different views on a fictional ship, and that's fine!

sorry that this got so long, i just wanted to explain my reasoning for it.

okay im assuming this is The Ship

[aroaceconfessions]

okay but honestly? it's genuinely so pathetic to see allos erase an aroace character's CANON identity with shipping. like lmfao excuse me? you can't stop shipping for ONE fucking second? not even to stop erasing a queer identity? you can't just leave this ONE character alone?? go fuck with all the other characters!!! you know, the ones that AREN'T CANONICALLY AROMANTIC ASEXUALS WHO ARE CANONICALLY DISINTERESTED IN ROMANCE/SEX.

look, shipping's fun and all, I get it. but there needs to be a fucking line drawn out of respect sometimes.

we have such little representation and they can't even let us have that. it's fucking infuriating. and literally pathetic on their part too.

(and yes, I've already tried filtering all the ship tags/words but people don't tag their shit properly so there's a lot that slips through.)

even more annoying when they headcanon these canon aroaces with other queer sexualities/orientations in a way that contradicts the canon aroace one. for example, a lesbian oriented aroace headcanon would be perfectly okay but an alloromantic allosexual lesbian headcanon would not be. because that's literally just erasing the aroace part.

like wtf? you want your queer representation but won't even let us have ours? fuck off.

and if you don't understand why this is annoying: to summarise, it's the insane amount of disrespect, aphobia and queer erasure. I know it's all fictional so technically ppl can do whatever they want but that also means other ppl are allowed get upset by it. the characters may be fictional but the identities aren't.

if you're aro/ace and this kind of shipping doesn't bother you, that's perfectly okay, just don't disrespect or invalidate aro/aces who are bothered by it.

I know that's not a nice rant but I don't care. I'm allowed to be angry about this and you are too. you don't need to spare the feelings of the 'poor wittle allos' who can't simply stop shipping and erasing canon queer identities. it is literally so fucking easy to back off, recognise and respect an aro/ace identity and move onto another character/ship who isn't aspec. they have no excuse for their bullshit.

[cutemeat]

random vent/rant post about d*ed*nnis & inc*st shipper’s trivializations of the subject in general below the cut..

yknow the thing abt the shipping Incest Issue is not that I think ppl who ship the shit ‘condone’ that irl or want to fuck their siblings or whatever shit argument. i don’t even think that ‘no one should be allowed to talk or write about incest in general, ever’!!!! the actual problem i have is that often ppl are making something that is a source of trauma/emotional pain/a very complicated subject in general for people into a ‘ooooh look at my sweet, dirty perverted thing.. i love my Trash hehehe!!’ thing n that just is always so fucking weird to me.

people who do this often think they are uber-mature and everyone else is just too immature to understand that incest is a thing that happens and exists and the people who criticize them are just silly children who don’t have media literacy skills. and that also fucking infuriates me, it is so misleading. cuz most of the time, people who treat the incestuous pairings they fetishize as just some plaything that has no gravity or influence on the people who see this shit, are themselves the ones who are often so immature in their arguments and handling of their “trash”.

like if people could handle the subject with a certain degree of care and displayed a genuine interest in wanting to explore this subject and kind of dynamic with nuance and mindfulness, that’s one thing… but they DON’T! not in these fucking fandom spaces they don’t!!!! this is not an artistic integrity argument or a censorship argument. it is a why are you turning this issue into a fetishized thing argument! THAT is what’s so fucking off-putting and upsetting. you are not being ‘’silenced’’. cuz obviously you’ll keep posting if u want to. esp in smaller fandoms like. yeah no one’s gonna be able to ‘stop’ you, honestly at this point i don’t care enough to exert energy into ‘stopping’ anyone and think it’s a waste of time. cuz that never works, ppl only ever double down and it just ends up making it worse for anyone affected emotionally by this shit having it continually turned into ‘discourse’. i rlly do just generally try to block the tags and blogs and move on. i do try. like sometimes it feels like no one on either side really cares about anything other than proving themselves as the superior party n it gets exhausting. still, the ppl who are continually choosing to approach this subject in such a frivolous way and acting like poor, banished victims who just cant like anything in peace anymore when people get upset by subject matter (which is, again, being handled so carelessly) that can trigger trauma and high emotions or just in general gross people out-- it never ceases to confuse me. like how can you be that unaware of how you are coming off that you act so shocked when people express they are upset by what you are doing and *promoting? (*not promoting incest itself, obviously i fucking know that, but continuing to treat 'shipping’ that shit like it exists in fandom spaces as something now somehow detached from reality entirely-- on the same level of ‘harmless fun’ as most pairings-- and should be treated as such is what i mean)

like no, at a certain point you do not care about ‘protecting art’ or defending certain interpretations or whatever bullshit you want to bastardize in an attempt to create justifications for what you’ve decided to ship and make content for. you are no different than people who just want to say fucked up shit for “shock value” and don’t give two shits who gets hurt or ‘triggered’ and may even, god forbid, feel compelled to speak up about their discomfort or disgust.

like please just take a step back from the fandom bubble and realize that no, this is not always just about people trying to assert moral superiority over somebody. i mean i’m not stupid of course i know a lot of the time online it is about that. and it’s usually pretty obvious when that’s all that is happening most of the time, at least. however, sometimes it is a reaction because some deep emotional pain has been triggered for some one/people in what is supposed to be a ‘just for fun space’ (which as many other groups trivialized and oppressed even in ‘just for fun’ fandom spaces know already, is a fucking lie anyway lol.. like let’s not even kid around with that bullshit notion anymore)... just take a HUGE step back and fucking think a little bit more deeply about what is going on here, again, minus all the stupid fandom language that coats these arguments. because, if you want to engage with and create art, it is that deep! because newsflash, assholes, that’s how art works. like no one can gatekeep the consumption or creation of art, obviously, but if you actually want to engage with and create shit-- you have got to be able to think and analyze and acknowledge that things are that deep if you wanna make something or talk about it. if you don’t want to get deep, then you can’t use any of those ‘well it’s just art’ or ‘you can’t censor art just because you don’t like it!’ arguments that come along with it.

now, onto my more Sunny specific rant.. cuz this thing gets annoying to me, especially with Dee and Dennis because, yes, there are certainly jokes written into the show about the way their behavior comes off as odd or ‘incestuous’ to other people… and their lack of awareness or this hypocrisy that tends to come from dee and dennis’ judgements being presented to the audience is funny! but they’re jokes. and those jokes are not Supposed to actually be setting Dee and Dennis up as viable love interests.

They have an undeniably dysfunctional and codependent relationship due to trauma and growing up with chaotic, unpredictable, manipulative, and self-centered parents. However, one of the reasons Dee and Dennis struggle not only to have a healthy relationship with each other but with others as well-- is because that relationship they had early on was sexualized by their own father. The twins already gained such a warped perception of how relationships (especially ones between men and women) are meant to function growing up the way that they did and, again because of their parents, often had that view of themselves and how their relationships moving forward might be viewed-- over-sexualized.

Yes, they are fucked up! But they’re not in love or have any canonical desire to fuck each other. Like.. if u wanna ship incest, the McPoyles are right there and Canonically express that they are in love and care about each other in that way. So if you are so fascinated by that dynamic, why don’t you just ship them? (I have what I’d consider to be a pretty decent first guess as to what the answer is lol) The McPoyles and Reynolds are decidedly different in the fact that Dee and Dennis do not have those feelings for each other. The McPoyles projected that possibility onto Dennis in Who Got Dee Pregnant? and he got so sick he literally threw up.

At its core, it makes me sad because I can see how badly Dennis wanted to have a relationship with his sister that was close but not sexualized or romanticized by other people. Dee certainly wanted that too, once upon a time. But people in the canon just kept projecting their weird shit, and this extended into the fandom too. It makes me sad for these characters, despite how shitty and self-righteous they may be lol.

Like yeah it’s funny to watch Dee and Dennis get taken down a peg in their perceived superiority, but the show has done that from the start and continues to in ways that doesn’t involve incest?? Because that’s, again, not the nature of their relationship. It’s not the fucking point. Often the joke is that Dee and Dennis always asserted themselves as being more classy and more aspirational than Mac and Charlie, when in reality they’re just as (if not more) trashy and depraved (again.. in ways that don’t have to involve incest to get that point across lmao). And I can tell you that is objectively much better writing that proves they’re able to stretch themselves creatively into territories stronger than just shock value or gross out humor.

This is not purely about comfort as a viewer, this is also about respecting their abilities as writers to not get stuck in the same old corner of jokes as many shows like this do.

So, despite this being vent/somewhat of a rant, this is about as unemotional an approach as I can have for the subject. But really, overall, I just don’t fucking get it. I don’t get the persistence from people that it’s not that deep and that fandom in general shouldn’t be that deep. like do you actually want to be taken seriously (as many of the same people claim they do) or do you just want to be taken seriously except for when it gets you in trouble?

like trust me, i know there are plenty of Dee&Dennis shippers still out there. there’s nothing i can do about it. i’m not gonna try and handpick and decipher who is who. anyone who i know is and posts about it regularly enough to make me uncomfortable i’ve already just blocked. i do the shit they always say to do, okay? i do! but it is one of the reasons i get particularly anxious about posting about the twins because i don’t want it to ever be interpreted the way shippers will! because it doesn’t matter that i don’t think that is written into the show and can cite my reasons for why i believe it isn’t and never was, cuz people will still twist it that way if that’s what they want to see. so i just don’t fucking say the deeper shit i have to say about the twins most of the time because the possibility of people labelling it as a romantic/sexual thing with them triggers me and makes me fucking uncomfortable!! and yes, part of that is my own problem i do not blame anyone for that, ok? no matter how weirded out i am. but it just frustrates me when people act like it’s just nothing and if you just block a couple people it just leaves you alone. cuz it doesn’t! it won’t! and i know that it won’t!

cuz it’s always more fucking worth it to people to have their taboo trash and double down on it. or for people to be like ‘ew gross!’ and make themselves feel like they’re in the right n just make things worse by making the discourse more intense n causing said people with the taboo trash to double down n become more hostile n then those ‘ew gross’ people just fucking ditch the convo for the next best thing... and i know. i fucking know that.

gonna end this whole mess (since it’s gotten so disorganized by this point.. but yknow.. never said it was supposed to be a proper essay anywhere LOL) with one last Sunny gripe... i just hate hate haaate when people do the ‘well you ship macdennis, etc’ so you have no room to criticize me! like uhhh yes the fuck i can!

i do not feel superior to you, but there are very distinct differences between choosing to ship a toxic/dysfunctional relationship and choosing to ship incest (again, esp in the case of Dee n Dennis as it as a complicated aspect of their trauma as adults and the overall tragedy of their broken sibling relationship that has often just been played off as a joke by the in-universe characters, some of the actors/writers, and the fans alike) like... no it is not the same, actually! you are just being dimwitted and intentionally trying to pull a stupid semantic trick when you argue that, and i hope you are smart enough to at least admit that to yourself if nobody else.

ok.. fin.