#please specify whether you mean people who identify as women or afab people

[catsithkelpie]

Sometimes I'm watching those gender-specific videos, where a guy will talk about something all girls do, and I'm like "I don't do that, so it's not true!" ...And then I remember I'm transmasc. 🤦

[think-queer]

I’ve gotten a couple of replies that I’d like to address:

“Question because now I'm doubting myself: doesn't your AGAB affect your experience of gender? Wouldn't that have an effect on your experience as an agender person? Like your perceived gender would affect your experience? Is that not how we define gender? As a collection of experiences combined with inherent understanding of self? Help!!” - @azuleopal

“I agree with the sentiment of this post but on an individual level is not every person's gender unique? Sure people self-identify with labels but nobody fits neatly in the boxes as understood by another person, we all have our own individualised understanding of what each label means to us, so really they are different genders, but then so is every single person's gender.” - @mothwhisperer

(if either of you are uncomfortable having your usernames in this post please message me)

I understand where both of these are coming from, and to a certain extent I agree. Every person’s experience with gender is unique and two people of the same gender identity are not necessarily going to define it the same way. The problem is treating someone’s AGAB as the most impactful thing on a person’s gender experience, and acting as though two people with different AGAB can’t possibly be the same gender. If you saw someone say “trans women experience their gender in a different way as cis women, therefore we shouldn’t consider them the same gender” I would hope that would raise some red flags.

An agender person who was AFAB and an agender person who was AMAB will have different experiences with their gender. But an agender person who was AFAB and grew up in a in a small town in the UK will have a wildly different experience than an agender person who was AFAB and grew up in a large city in the USA, but that rarely comes up. You typically don’t see people specify where a nonbinary person grew up, their race, whether or not they are disabled, their income, or any other number of things that impact a person’s experience with gender unless it is directly relevant to the conversation. So why does AGAB get treated as though it is always relevant to the conversation?

In short: two people can be the same gender but still have a very different experience with gender, and there are many things that affect a person’s experience with gender aside from AGAB so it’s questionable when people act as though AGAB is the most important thing.

If you think that an agender person who was AFAB and an agender person who is AMAB are two separate genders then I inherently don't trust you about trans issues.

Someone's genitals or AGAB does not determine their gender, and I find it concerning how many people seem to forget this when it comes to non-binary people.

[guiltyidealist]

@sept-etoiles​ replied to your post: “I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call them a transmisogynist? Like I as a trans person had NO idea that the "socialization" thing was terf-y, and I've even used it to explain my identity to people before. Is that enough to get me, a trans person, labeled as a transphobe? It just seems a bit extreme to me idk. But the rest of that stuff? I totally get why they're on your DNI”

Yeah, I got caught up on that hardcore, too. I’ll walk you through why and how I determined that, yes, it was transmisogynistic.

*cracking knuckles*

So, context makes the difference. Talking about socialization isn’t... n e c e s s a r i l y TERFy on its own but it has HEAVY TERF vibes for reasons I’ll get to, and I feel like the maker(s) of the callout know this but didn’t specify that they saw it as TERFy in the context it was used. 

I mean, gender is a social thing; we all know that. Sure, I was “socialized” female-- assigned female, “raised” female. When explaining gender (vs sex) to first-timers, we talk about how gender can be thought of as a social role assigned to us which we may feel is right, wrong, or somewhat right/wrong. But saying assigned (especially “assigned by society”) is a SIGNIFICANTLY better way of expressing this concept.

TERFs often use this kind of language to reduce trans women (sometimes other trans folks, but namely trans women) to their AGAB by saying they were “socialized male” and therefore “have ‘male tendencies/brains’” (whatever THAT means) and are therefore inescapably men and therefore predators and abusers.

Here’s one possible synthesis from all of that: Gaud had the right intentions but used questionable language by mistake. Okay, acceptable; without any further investigation, this is equally valid to “Gaud KNEW that and still chooses transmisogyny”. But reexamining the context makes things... even more muddled.

Gaud said that, because they are attracted to women and “socialized female,” they can make “useless lesbian” jokes. There’s an implication that being an AMAB nonbinary lesbian would mean you couldn’t make those jokes (A.K.A. identify as a lesbian) because you were “socialized male”. There’s nothing wrong in my eyes with nonbinary lesbians making lesbian jokes and using lesbian terms because they’re no “less lesbian” than binary lesbians. If Gaud had said, “I’m a lesbian, so I can make those jokes,” the story would have been different. Instead, they said, “I’m AFAB and I like girls, so I can make lesbian jokes.”

I cannot confirm or deny Gaud’s orientation. If Gaud does not identify themself regularly as a lesbian, then all of this is wrong on a fairly plain and obvious level. Gaud said, in the screenshot on the callout, that they are WLW/WLW-aligned. But UNLESS Gaud identifies AS a lesbian -- at least sometimes -- they cannot make those jokes (as far as I’m aware; lesbians, please correct me if necessary). I think it would be wrong for a bi woman, for example, to make useless lesbian jokes unless she herself identifies with the “lesbian” label??? The last half being because “lesbian” meaning “exclusive attraction to women by binary women” is exclus-enforced rhetoric that violates queer history??? But don’t quote me, as I’m far from being a lesbian. 

If they are a lesbian, their “useless lesbian” comments were fine and the complainers were either exclus or unaware that they are a lesbian.

Even if Gaud is a lesbian, the whole “I grew up (and am still usually) perceived as female” comment reduced themself to their AGAB AND implied that AMAB NB/WLW can’t be lesbians and is therefore transphobic no matter what else gets factored in. Direct translation: “I can make lesbian jokes because I’m a lesbian, and I’m a lesbian both because I like girls and because I was ‘socialized female’.” Whether malicious or internalized, there’s some transphobia (mostly transmisogyny) that needs to be flushed down the toilet. Then again, all of this happened at least two years ago, so who knows?

Remember, kids: “I am a lesbian because I was born female” is TERF rhetoric word-for-word.

Oh, and the rest of the stuff on there is incriminating, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

May I ask why gaud is on the list? If they're a nasty, I really wanna know.

There’s some real shady shit cited in this here document. I don’t necessarily agree with all of what they’re being “called out” for as being bad/deserving of a callout, but some of it is... yeah.

Anyway, the document is a bit old, and I cannot confirm the truth or lack thereof behind any of its contents. It was just enough to make me uncomfortable.