#pathologic executioner

[shmowder]

Pathologic play where the tragedians slowly fall into love with the player. Not the healer you're controlling, but the player behind the screen.

It starts with small things like reflections giving you more information than normal. You don't think much of it. Pathologic is known for its secret dialogue options at times.

Then you noticed the supposed tutorial tragedians on the street aren't exactly leaving despite progressing through the game. Instead, you can talk to them each day and receive useful information, a valuable item, or straight-up food.

How much more of a constant they've become in your quests, taking it upon themselves to lead you to place, point you towards the fastest route and even slow down time for you when you're not looking.

Only that if you do follow his advice, you notice the executioners following in your steps the next playthrough around. Unlike the tragedians, the townsfolk can see them. Your character keeps getting questioned by others on why are orderlies follow you around so much?

They keep messing with the play, and it's making Mark Immortell clearly frustrated with the mutiny and how you're clearly a bad influence on them. During one scene in the theatre, he suggests starting over so his actors may hopefully regain their senses and stop acting like your fanclub.

Maybe they find it funny courtesy to the bird mask, but they keep leaving you nuts, marbles and other valuable trading items. They blatantly cure you of the plague that one time you couldn't outrun a certain cloud, they give you immunity pills and antibiotics the more you pay them attention and indulge their fawning.

The game practically becomes a cakewalk at this point, and no amount of resetting is fixing it.

If anything, they're more like a harmless crowd of adoring fans that watch you play and cheer from the side whenever you do something cool, fawning at your every action, asking more and more personal questions to get to know you.

Both groups keep watching over you, not so subtly behind Mark's back. Letting you slip away from some dangers for simply smiling their way, throw in a wink, and there is nothing you can't get away with.

Adoring you from the backlines, dropping some bullets and a gun in a building's ground floor furniture just when you're desperate looking for loot.

A bunch of them hanging out at your permanent lair, keeping your storage sorted and just having fun being silly around the place. Some of the tragedians try to make you laugh, and others attempt to impress you with their acrobatics.

While the birdies are surprisingly more coy with their infatuation. They still attempt to play their correct roles, especially the plague executioner. But the second you pick a mean dialogue option to them, their dialogue changes and stutters, visibly deflating in sadness as they mumble the rest of their lines. Staring at you through their intimidating apathetic bird mask like a kicked puppy, wanting your approval but also wanting to be a good actor.

A lot of the more extreme shocking scenes are skipped because they feel too bad to be that mean to you. You don't get death taunting you in the marbles nest, nor does the plegue insult you in the haruspex's route each time you make progress.

Actually- it's the other way around. The plague is congrating you on your progress with a gushing fan tone, saying how they knew you were such a good job for this and they can't believe they get to act with such a talent as yourself—Hey actually do you think you can sign their mask? Oh the others would be so jealous if they knew.

[hiiragi7]

Some notes on intersex invisibility, from an intersex person...

Often people tell me, "I have never met an intersex person before," and they assume that we are simply rare by nature rather than continuously, purposefully, and violently eradicated. Intersex people themselves are not rare, rather the opposite; we are born all the time, everywhere. We are common variation by nature - Our perceived rarity is wholly man-made, caused by the purposeful destruction of our bodies and our identities.

The concept of intersex as rare is used to further our eradication by design; When PGD is used to terminate intersex embryos, when intersex infants and children are operated on to "normalize" them, when intersex people are not told about their own variation, when intersex people are told they have "disorders" they must be treated for but the word "intersex" is never so much as uttered, when we are isolated from each other and prevented from building our own communities, when medical institutions attempt to narrow down what falls under "intersex" to make our statistics appear smaller, when we are forcibly made as invisible if not as non-existent as possible - it is no wonder we would be assumed a rarity.

Those unaware often even assume our perceived rarity is natural, passive, and neutral, rather than created, gory, and methodical. This, too, I believe is purposeful; our destruction is largely hidden and we are silenced by this assumed-to-be fact of rarity. The details that people may come to learn about our mutilation are also made palatable, even understandable, through the lens of pathology; we are presented not as people who are mutilated and destroyed for who we are, but rather as sick patients with an unfortunate (but always rare) illness undergoing necessary treatment to hopefully lead fulfilling, "normal" lives. In this way, doctors are framed as our saviors rather than our executioners, and those who buy into our rarity and abnormality become complicit in our invisibility.

As intersex people, we carry the consequences of this deep within ourselves; whether it is in the form of literal scars, doubt and insecurities about our own claim to our identities and our bodies, isolation from others like ourselves and a deeply felt loneliness, an inability to access safe medical care or knowledge about our bodies, or a variety of other traumas, our community is suffering. To have that pain made so invisible, so insignificant, so pathologized, only serves to ensure our abuse and destruction is continued.

[sauntervaguelydown]

what's interesting about Zenigata throughout the Lupin iii franchise is that he doesn't really have a core interiority. Everything about Zenigata is exterior.

Part 4 does this insane thing with him where he's locked into his role as judge/jury/executioner to such an extent that it seems pathological--he has to keep Lupin in prison even though it is making him, personally, miserable with grief. He has to make sure Lupin dies rather than let him escape. It will literally destroy the foundation of who he is as a person if he succeeds in the goal he's assigned himself, but he can't possibly do anything else. The law is the law and his job is his job, and he can't let himself be anything else even for a moment. It's fucking intense! It's Greek tragedy!

Compare that to part 5, which was made like? two years? later. And in this one, Zenigata explicitly states that he wants to put Lupin in jail because it's the only way to make Lupin understand his actions have consequences. To force him to turn over a new leaf, make him go straight, and then meet him on the other side. Literally wants to buy him a drink when he gets out of prison.

These could not be more different--I mean it's Antigone vs A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Are either of them more true to the spirit of the character than the other? Well. It's really hard to say, because we just don't know these things about Zenigata in Part One!

What's his relationship to justice? How does he feel about The Law? Is he a corrupt cop, is he noble? Is his chasing Lupin driven by career aspirations or personal passion?

EDIT: I have now read the manga translations, and uhhh well. Apparently they met in college and Zenigata hated his vibe SO bad he spent the rest of his life trying to kill the guy. Not sure that helps us much here.

As it stands, here's a rough list of the stuff I've watched and what its take on Zenigata is

Part One: in the first episode, Zenigata gives a brief explanation of their dynamic (for the sake of the audience) which is already WELL established in-universe. Here he says something like, "Lupin, if you weren't the Grandson of Arsene Lupin, and I wasn't the descendant of the famous Zenigata..." implying that something about this dynamic would change if it wasn't for their Cosmically Assigned Destinies as products of their Two Houses Alike in Dignity etc. What would be different? Would they be friends? I don't know! But Zenigata definitely seems to be beholden to the legacy of his own family here.

there's also an ep where Zenigata has Lupin in jail successfully. Zenigata stays on site guarding the jail the whole 6 months, and eventually one of the other guards says if I didn't know any better I'd think you were looking forward to seeing him escape.

later episodes led by Miyazaki lean more heavily on the context of his career; his relationship to his boss, a conference he wants to attend in his field, the fear of one's job being outmoded by technology etc.

The Mystery of Mamo: Zenigata has so much personal passion! When they tell him to drop the case, he literally quits the force to chase Lupin as a private citizen! This is the one where he swears he'll follow Lupin to the gates of Hell because they are fated rivals. This is also the one where he literally tries to stake Lupin in case he's turned into a vampire. so. I don't know man. He's fucking unhinged in this movie, it's pretty great.

Mamo is known to be closer in tone to the manga than anything else, but Zenigata is not this rabid in the manga. Manga Zenigata is more contemptuous and put-upon.

The Castle of Cagliostro: this is a neutral good Zenigata at his most admirable. When he can't get justice through the law, he teams up with criminals in order to circumvent corrupt government officials. He's also headstrong and fully willing to risk his own career, but not ready to throw it away at the first inconvenience. He is "very fond" of Lupin. He enjoys the chase, but he can put it aside in order to fry bigger fish. You get the impression that he cares about correcting injustice more than the letter of the law.

Part Two: Lupin fakes his death twice that I can remember and BOTH times Zenigata cries about it. On the first occasion, Zenigata shakes the corpse, begs it to wake up, then wonders tearfully what he's going to do with himself now that Lupin is dead. On the second occasion, Zenigata first tries to KILL himself rather than allow Lupin to rescue him (out of a sense of pride) and then cries and calls Lupin a "great man" after Lupin fakes a fatal crash. The resentment IMMEDIATELY gives way to mourning. He's very cavalier with his own life, but precious about Lupin's.

By the way, I love how much this man cries. I ALSO love crying in public and being homoerotically obsessed with my enemies. He's so relatable

the other thing is that this Zenigata is VERY binary about roles; he refuses to jailbreak from extralegal imprisonment because "cops don't escape jail". Doesn't matter that the jail is run by terrorists who are going to kill him, that's Not What Cops Do.

The Fuma Conspiracy: Lupin has faked his death yet again, and Zenigata has--in direct response to this--quit the force and BECOME A MONK, and explicitly says he is busy praying for Lupin's soul so that Lupin can be reincarnated as a law abiding citizen in his next life. What the fuck does this say about Zenigata? Buddy we don't have time to unpack that whole suitcase. In brief: Zenigata is prescriptive about law and legality as equaling goodness/dharma/morality etc. But he also changed his entire life so that he could remain dedicated to THE SOUL OF HIS DEAD NEMESIS. So this is clearly very personal, and has nothing to do with his career.

Part Three: limited familiarity with this one but I HAVE seen the episode where Zenigata gets fired due to his boss's embezzlement scheme and subsequently uncovers the scheme--there's a bit where Lupin pretends to mug him in an alley so they can have a private conversation, and Zenigata IS pretty quick to jump on the trail of this embezzlement scheme instead of chasing Lupin, once he's been tipped off. Perhaps more career driven in this one.

Lupin First Contact: some combination of career-based ambition and, like, Unrequited Rivalry At First Sight. He came here to chase Fujiko and got so distracted by this other idiot that he nearly forgot about her. To be fair, this story is narrated by Lupin so it may not even be an accurate representation of Zenigata within its own canon.

Ten Thousand Movies other from 1990-2005: girl most of these are so bad they are so SO bad. Most of the time Zenigata is not a major player. I can't remember anything he did in these except--oh, in Burning Memories, he uses the jute he keeps in a shinto shrine in his apartment after it survives a major fire. Loved that.

Also, he dresses in drag at the beginning of Farewell Nostradamus. This has nothing to do with anything I just loved it.

The Woman Called Fujiko Mine: corrupt cop. dirtbag. full stop.

okay, no, really. Here he is explicitly concerned with his career; he laments that he had to take grunt work to get by, talks about being busted down the chain after reporting his dirty boss, is extremely defensive of anyone muscling in on his Case even someone he has every reason to trust... this is a man who only cares about his career

he does fuck Fujiko and it IS a corrupt move. He seems to imply he's done this before with other thieves. He KNOWS she faked an orgasm and he doesn't care. He's mean as hell.

He cares about his pride. He seems to think Having Personal Pride is incompatible with participating in corruption. Does not explain why he exploited Fujiko Mine for sex. Maybe corruption doesn't count if you don't respect the person you're violating the rights of.

So, overall, have I got a thesis?

Basically, everyone who writes Zenigata has a different take on what his core motivation is. All the stuff that is core to Zenigata is in his affect, in his actions. He's enthusiastic, emotional, hotheaded, stubborn, prone to cackling, smart but not quite smart enough. What he thinks and what he feels, what he does in his private life, remains surprisingly mysterious.

Several of these takes are mutually exclusive. Mamo and Cagliostro simply do not overlap, just like Part 4 and Part 5 are at odds with each other. You can't put Mamo and Cagliostro and Part 1 in a blender without creating some new third thing inaccurate to all three.

For my money, here's what I think the core points would be, if I was starting out to write a fresh series or something:

the Shinto angle; his duty to the family legacy, especially with a famous ancestor like the OG Zenigata, looms large over the current inspector. He has a lot to live up to.

although they met through his job, he's very specifically attached to Lupin in a way that has nothing to do with his job; in fact, his desire to be close to Lupin is at odds with his career

he started out being ambitious and career oriented--this is why he started chasing Lupin, hoping to make a name for himself.

his career has fully stalled out and he's in conflict with himself about the joy his gets from chasing Lupin vs the expectations he set for himself ten years ago

ACAB; if he's actually ethical and cares about civil rights, he's got to be Insanely Unpopular with other cops. The only reason he might be able to get away with this and still have a job is that he's A) an accidental celebrity now with a weird amount of public clout B) he's got insane tunnel vision and doesn't notice major violations of human rights unless they are Directly In his Line of Vision. Nonetheless, this is unsustainable in the long term.

*I'm also a proponent of "Zenigata used to be more ruthless and corrupt, but he's actually picked up ethics somehow from being around criminals all the time" simply because. it is funny.

In conclusion: probably the reason we don't have solid answers to these questions is because Zenigata is like a dog chasing cars. He doesn't know what he'd do with one if he caught it. Nonetheless, he's gotta chase that goddamn fiat.

[vaguewrites]

Some doodles and paintings from my new sketchbook

The last one is of those executioners from Pathologic

[wearelondonhq]

Time for a meme! If you want to take part all you have to do is reblog this post. Remember if you reblog to send them out to those who also do. Meme lasts from today (17/02) to the next Friday (22/02)! As always, please have fun and happy meme day!

MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE SENTENCE STARTERS: featuring quotes from deadpool, venom, ant-man & the wasp, thor: ragnarok, wandavision, doctor strange, ant-man & more. credit for some of these goes to @scotchymemes

Go back to whatever cave you ever crept out of!

What is grief, if not love persevering?

The world has taken too much from you for you to still be considered innocent.

I love you. I love you in every universe.

Where once you were nothing, now you are something.

Expect disappointment and you will never be disappointed.

We were good together, weren’t we? Maybe it’s time to reignite that flame...

I love you 3000.

You still owe me a dance.

Every good family film starts with a great murder.

Kiss me like you missed me.

You’re a lot smarter than I look. You can’t really live until you’ve died a little.

You are not judge, jury or executioner.

You’ve let me down for the last time. What did I do to piss off a grumpy old sucker with a Winter Soldier arm?

You shut your trashmouth!

Sorry, I tend to process traumatic events with dad jokes. 

The only thing that does make sense is that nothing makes sense.

I make grave mistakes all the time. It all seems to work out.

You are my sadness and my hope. But mostly, you’re my love.

Good morning! Are you ready for your hot fresh cup of bodily harm?

You’re not seriously thinking of going back, are you?

Piss off, ghost! I have to get off this planet.

It’s an honor to meet you, officially. I sort of met you, I mean, I watched you while you were sleeping.

We never lose our demons. We only learn to live above them.

I’m expendable. That’s why I’m here.

Some of the best love stories begin with a murder.

You ever feel lost? Just look into the eyes of the people you love.

Do I have to figure out my whole future before lunch, or is there, like…?”

He’d rather lose this fight than lose you.

I’m gonna have to rain check that dance. 

Don’t do anything I would do, and don’t do anything I wouldn’t do. There’s a little gray area in there. That’s where you operate.”

Love is a dagger. It’s a weapon to be wielded far away or up close. You can see yourself in it. It’s beautiful until it makes you bleed.

Someday I’m gonna make great machines that fly. And me and my friends are gonna go flying together, into the forever and beautiful sky.

There’s not a day that goes by where I don’t regret having said yes.

I just want a chance to prove myself. Because that’s what heroes do!

You know what I like about being upset? The blame.

You’re just using me to get to (...). That’s so gross, you’re not even my friend.

You don’t have to fight anyone, but we’re in danger so we have to move.

Your hair looks nice. What did you do to it? Did you change it, maybe wash it?

He is as dishonourable as he is attractive.

Where do you store all this useless information?

Good is not a thing you are. It's a thing you do.

You know you didn’t have to humiliate him in front of everyone.

House blowing up builds character.

I’m just a bad guy who gets paid to fuck up even worse guys.

Motherfucker, you’re the world’s worst friend.

Less talking, more kissing.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

I know what you’re going to say, but this guy/girl/person is all the way bad.

You are so pathologically self-observed

Love the optimism, but in my experience, when it looks bad, it’s usually worse.

I do not understand the intricacies of social interaction.

What master do I serve? What am I supposed to say, Jesus?

I told you that when I was drunk, why are you bringing this up?

Please tell me nobody just kissed me.

There’s a shawarma place two blocks from here. I don’t know what it is, but I want to try it.

If he ends up being evil, we’ll just kill him.

Trying to get you to stop has been one of the few failures of my entire life.

! Do you ever feel like your life is one monumental screw-up?

You people have no shame! What does the FBI even stand for? Forever Bothering Individuals?

Ninja Turtle, you better stop poking me.

I get emails from a raccoon, so nothing sounds crazy.

I just keep imagining you waking up in the morning, sir, looking in the mirror and then in all seriousness saying to yourself, ‘You know what would be a really kickass name? ______!’

I told you, I don’t want to join your super-secret boy band.

Look, I’m going to be totally honest with you:

I forgot you’re here. Well, I was in the neighborhood so I thought I’d save you the hassle.

So are you two…do you…fondue?

You call me _______ again, I’ll shove my foot up somewhere it’s not supposed to be.

Don’t drink fountain water, you idiot.

That’s disgusting.

We'll be okay. You can rest now.

I do some dumb things and it ends up hurting the people I love the most.

Maybe you need a partner, someone to watch your back.

You can do it. You can do anything.

Together, we’ll figure something out.

Missed me, missed me, now you gotta- You know what, forget I said anything.

I’m not one to be judgemental, but you, sir, are an extremely disturbed man.

Lie is such an ugly word. I prefer misdirection

I just conned the hell out of you and here you are trying to save me. How can you be so damn nice all the time?

[silenthillmutual]

3 & 18 for Alfred the Executioner, 24 & 25 for Artemy Burakh, and 10 & 48 for Heather Mason!

alfred<3

3. What first drew you to this character?

this is such a fun question for me because i've been asked this once or twice. i genuinely have no idea! i started playing bloodborne in like. uhm. 2022, i think? and i'd gotten far enough in the game to meet him. but i generally didn't think a whole lot about bloodborne at the time because so much else was going on in my life. i couldn't even tell you when or why my brain decided to fixate on bloodborne, much less on alfred. i just kind of woke up one day and my brain was like "yes alfred my best friend alfred!"

if i'm going to hazard a guess, i'd say it's because he's fucking crazy. i love it when a guy (or gal tbh) is covered in blood and laughing like a maniac. i am also admittedly quite fond of the voice acting. i wish all the characters in bloodborne got more screentime, but at the same time i think everyone does a great job with what they're given. the absolute snide turn in his voice when you give him the cainhurst summons is just so good.

18. Do you prefer to see this character suffer or know peace? Angst or comfort? Both?

SUFFER, BLONDE BOY!

i have a whole thing planned out of how i'll get him to interact w my oc and all but the peace lasts for... i don't know. a couple hours? maybe? the rest of it he is suffering. his natural state. even when i take him out and dust him off and put in him pathologic he is suffering. but that's bc i see him as someone who hasn't quite figured out yet that you're not meant to hinge your entire existence on a singular thing: a person, a goal, a label, an ideal. i don't know how to better explain it other than that i think he's got many things wrong with him and can't/won't look inward, but that's not something anyone else can make him do, so it doesn't particularly matter where he is. he's going to continue to suffer.

artemy<3

24. Do you ever dream about this character? If so, describe a dream you once had about them.

i have had dreams about artemy in the past but i cannot for the life of me remember what happened in them! my dreams typically aren't all that memorable unless they're really, really bad. i haven't had one with him in it recently, though i think the first time i had artemy show up in a dream, i was daniil.

25. What kind of fan-fiction do you read about this character? If you don’t read fan-fics about them, why not?

i went through a period where i was trying to read absolutely every pathologic fanfic. i got caught up a couple years ago, and then life caught up with me and i haven't really gotten back to the mines in that sense. now i tend to prioritize what my friends write before reading anything else... but i do like to read gen fic about artemy that focuses on him actually struggling with the outcome of the game. and i feel like this is sort of a rare thing to find. i'd be happy with reading a burakhovsky fic like this if, you know, more of them existed? because so many fics make it The Dankovsky Show. and i get that daniil is a very interesting and important character, but so is artemy! people tend to write artemy as being endlessly understanding and kind, and artemy (in patho 2 at least) is relatively quick to forgive people who have wronged him, it just doesn't sit right with me that people make him a doormat. so i do still read fics where artemy is present, but i don't... go looking for them necessarily, because it doesn't feel like a lot of people treat him very fairly. he gets a better deal than clara, granted, but not by much.

heather<3

10. Do you see yourself in this character even without projecting?

hmmm... i think i probably saw myself in aspects of heather back when i was playing the game at like, 18 or 19 years old, but i think that was more with the heather we're presented in shattered memories, who is deeply hurt and grieving something she never got to have. it was something i could relate to, and the heather of silent hill 3 had something i never did, in having a loving father. i think i probably identified witht he rage she feels in the game, and the fear (since i was peak unmedicated for ocd, which itself is like being in a neverending hell) - but that was probably more of a 'heather lend me your strength' kind of way than in actually being able to see myself in her. though i did cosplay her!

48. What’s your favorite physical/design feature for this character?

i've always absolutely loved her outfit. i used to closet cosplay her all the time - my mother would never have let me bleach my hair, but i had the vest & the skirt & the boots. i actually always loved boots like that, though i don't have them anymore. i'm actually coming back around in the questions here - now that i'm older & harrier & fatter & vaguely more masculine, my cosplay lineup is looking more like travis grady (from silent hill: origins) and alfred.

honest fave character asks~

[tastethebloodofmeatthawsmoth]

"… A FACE. GRIMACING HORRIBLY. LOOKING LIKE IT’S STRAINED WITH EXCESSIVE suffering. Pain twists the muscles, deforms the expression. The mouth is writhing, the eyes look mad. Is it some torture victim dying at the hands of a sadistic executioner? Is it a martyr? Some unfortunate suffering the torments of an attack of madness? Is it …?

The monstrous photograph that inspired these questions was found in a prominent place on page one of one of the most popular sporting reviews, La Vie au Grand Air (December 19, 1908). It showed a runner making the supreme effort to reach the finish line.

Photos like this one are not at all rare. Who among you hasn’t more than once seen in a newspaper the dizzying swerving of autos competing for a trophy? Or a dangerous motorcycle race? Or simply some imbecile.... fainting after having run forty kilometers? Or a boxing match? [....]

The more we observe it the clearer it is that the love for violent sports seems to be a veritable contemporary malady. The entire younger generation of today is attacked by it, as well as a large part of the others....

For it has all the characteristics of a mental illness. It’s an obsession that succeeds in abolishing all reasoning power in its victim. The runner can’t control himself. He has lost the little free will that the normal man enjoys. Just as the hysteric doesn’t know how to vanquish his pathological desires; just as the alcoholic no longer has the strength to refuse a drink that he knows is fatal; just as the opium smoker or the morphine addict must absorb his poison, the runner doesn’t have the force of will to refuse himself a pleasure that everything shows him to be absurd, dangerous, and painful."

- Victor Serge, writing in Le Révolté, January 9, 1909, collected in Anarchists Never Surrender

And the picture that inspired it

[joiningthefandomeightyearslate]

I decided to upload a group of sketches of Cullen in some outfits from my favorite all time games. 1) Monkey Island series dressed like Guybrush Threepwood 2) Pathologic 2 wearing Block's uniform 3) Bloodborne in the executioners set

[biskael]

You are a slave of the inevitable, while I am its mistress.

pathologic meme . / no longer accepting . @fenixias

" OH HO ! HANGING MY OWN MORTALITY above me like the executioner's steel , are you ? heavy is the hand that wields the axe , so many men piled upon his conscious . " THE HUNTER HUMS GENTLY , a dawn-dabbled light caressing itself atop his intense , carved face . so early , and yet , quilge manages yet another harsh smile that splits his face wide . he glances upon the bird-girl , celeste , the light that so briefly touches him is so quickly commanded by her . that the air itself hangs with her very words , quiet as they were . candles lit in honor of his majesty suddenly nothing but burnt wick and smoke .

her eyes , mirror-silver & endless . the stars twinkling atop her feathers , brighter than usual . she isn't listening to him . perhaps , she cannot even hear him .

quilge clenches his white teeth , and his brow sharpens . she had told him something similar once , earlier . and it , too , was about death . something he was intensely familiar with , wielded it as his own weapon , but had been spared its wicked touch many times . protected by the blood that flowed in his veins .

at least , that's what he could surmise within his blackened mind , full of torments . a dungeon dark and winding , with no way out .

all she would do is burn ------ BURN AS ALL WITCHES DO . burn , sing until she screams , the flames consuming her flesh , her feathers , her bones , and then , she would return . again and again . the cycle never shattering beneath her wing . what a sad story , to never truly die . to outlive everything you hold dear , to feel the sting of its impermanence .

perhaps that was what she'd meant . or perhaps , there was no meaning at all .

still , he is cold . almost unmoved . " will those oracle eyes of yours ever see anything of use to us ? " speaks the executive hunting captain in him , not the jailer . the conqueror , the victor , the man wreathed in the slaughter of his enemies . " something that isn't so vague , perhaps ? " but there is a differing flavor to his words , uniquely foreign to his extravagant , grating sound : hope .

[oathsworn-visual-companion]

OATHSWORN - Hiding in Plain Sight pt 1

Battlemap of the Omniculum of Voa town

Executioners from Pathologic, visual reference for the ancient Eyes of Smoke. Ibex, of the sort that pull the Talios' carts.

Fire Nation Capital from Avatar, visual reference for the caldera town (though it should be snowy)

Visual reference for the town's buildings (The Ore Dock of Marquette, MI). Meme image about star perverts. My first guess about what the tower weirdos looked like.

The meme I posted when Brendan said we didn't get a primary mission at Novara (I initially suggested playing a side game)

[sloshed-cinema]

The Devils (1971)

Catholicism as presented here is a hegemony oppressing a faith that aspires for and sometimes achieves grace. Seventeenth Century France was a blasted wasteland torn by war and plague alike, an apocalyptic landscape both manmade and pathological. And yet the latter in many ways enabled the former. The grand existential drama of the Black Plague allowed for those in power or those aspiring for it to exploit the chaos and fear to their own ends. The sight of bodies being dumped by the score into mass graves is a frightening sight, after all. Early in this accounting of the affaire des possédées de Loudun, lecherous priest Fr Urbain Grandier accuses two snake oil salesmen of giving out useless treatments to the ill which only heightens their suffering. Little does he know that these two will soon have power over him and his own body. But they are not alone, and are indeed lesser figures in the grand conspiracy against him. As a figure in the church and a rebellious one, he is a threat to others with grander designs. Cardinal Richelieu, seeking to gain influence over Louis XIII and resenting Fr Grandier’s vocal defense of the historic agreement to maintain the fortification of Loudun while keeping loyal to the Crown of France, will use any opportunity to remove this blight. Fr Grandier’s doom is twofold: his proclivity for the fairer sex, and a convent of Ursuline nuns. His radical interpretation of the Bible and of Catholic faith leads him to believe that he can marry, and a shoddy at the very best investigation of the convent’s sudden spate of erratic behavior marks him a sorcerer. Commence the show trial, the excessive tortures, the cruel and blatantly political execution. Fr Grandier remains resolute to the end, dying in agony but holding true to his truth. He was an imperfect man, but not a monster.

But this description feels too even-keeled to properly capture the experience of watching Ken Russell’s dark and subversive masterpiece. Russell is a master of tone in his historical films, seeking to capture the absurdity of the events playing out in precisely calibrated degrees. If Lisztomania is a psychedelic fuck-fest and Mahler a darkly ironic paean to nature (that one scene where a Valkyrie or whatever throws knives at a crucified Gustav notwithstanding), The Devils captures Russell at his most excessive and his most sober. He knows his evil-doers. The German composers vilify Wagner as the ur-text of Hitler and all of the horror he wrought, and here the Catholic Church is rendered a potent enemy both spiritual and political. The enemy is Legion. While Card. Richelieu is largely absent, he has executors in the strong-willed and fanatical Jean de Laubardemont as judge, jury, and executioner (abetted by a hooded panel of judges), the impotent stooge Fr Mignon, and the psychotic witch-hunter (redundant) Fr Barre. Barre particularly unifies the two arms of this condemnation of Catholic power-abuse: sexual repression and death. Fr Barre is the original hot priest, his vestments sleeveless and most of his garments easily removed to expose that sweet bod. He cavorts with the mostly nude nuns in a grand exorcism, trying to rid them of the devil’s influence while mostly just getting hot and heavy in some BDSM shit. The scenes in the convent are excessive and baudy, purposefully graphic and insane. This is what the priests desire and yet pretend to loathe. As the acts in the congregation become ever more debauched, our previously horny Fr Grandier becomes ever more Christlike. After his West Side Story marriage to his spouse, he removes himself to the wilderness to become closer to God, embracing a radical Catholicism of love and openness and self-sacrifice. His return to Loudun purposefully mirrors Jesus’ cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, and his prolonged torture by the political powers that be are a sort of abridged Stations of the Cross. By the end, he is a figure of pure pathos, almost superhuman in his resolve to stay true to his beliefs. The conclusion is almost unfathomable in its cruelty, Fr Barre an insane fanatic on a power trip and Fr Grandier dying in agony. But that’s where the final part of this mess comes together: the populace. Ever present and yet largely faceless (literally, due to carnival masks they all wear), everyone in town bears witness to the fall of this one man. He roused them with a speech about their independence at the start, and yet they waver at either supporting or decrying him as he suffers and dies. This is a spectacle, which is what the powers want. The Church need to remove any voice of dissent, and the Crown, a horny fuck that he is, accepts the orgy at the cathedral as a bit of fun, laughs at their ridiculous faith, and then leaves, indifferent to any consequences that may come. The partial fulfillment of Fr Grandier’s final rites comes only as a result of a group chant, and they are just as willing to egg on the death. Some people die at the hands of others, imperfect and yet righteous in their beliefs, and then others step on their bones to take power while the subjugated masses cheer for more circuses. We are all of us devils.

THE RULES

PICK ONE

Select either CATHOLIC or PROTESTANT and sip whenever that faith is mentioned.

SIP

Someone says 'France' or 'forgive'.

The Plague is mentioned.

Sister Jeanne starts to laugh.

BIG DRINK

Someone makes Confession.

The fortifications of Loudun are mentioned.

That bowl-cut-ass mofo is utterly useless.

[fundgruber]

"… A FACE. GRIMACING HORRIBLY. LOOKING LIKE IT’S STRAINED WITH EXCESSIVE suffering. Pain twists the muscles, deforms the expression. The mouth is writhing, the eyes look mad. Is it some torture victim dying at the hands of a sadistic executioner? Is it a martyr? Some unfortunate suffering the torments of an attack of madness? Is it …?

The monstrous photograph that inspired these questions was found in a prominent place on page one of one of the most popular sporting reviews, La Vie au Grand Air (December 19, 1908). It showed a runner making the supreme effort to reach the finish line.

Photos like this one are not at all rare. Who among you hasn’t more than once seen in a newspaper the dizzying swerving of autos competing for a trophy? Or a dangerous motorcycle race? Or simply some imbecile.... fainting after having run forty kilometers? Or a boxing match? [....]

The more we observe it the clearer it is that the love for violent sports seems to be a veritable contemporary malady. The entire younger generation of today is attacked by it, as well as a large part of the others....

For it has all the characteristics of a mental illness. It’s an obsession that succeeds in abolishing all reasoning power in its victim. The runner can’t control himself. He has lost the little free will that the normal man enjoys. Just as the hysteric doesn’t know how to vanquish his pathological desires; just as the alcoholic no longer has the strength to refuse a drink that he knows is fatal; just as the opium smoker or the morphine addict must absorb his poison, the runner doesn’t have the force of will to refuse himself a pleasure that everything shows him to be absurd, dangerous, and painful."

- Victor Serge, writing in Le Révolté, January 9, 1909

[mango4567]

I agree with a lot of this and think it’s a very good, thoughtful examination of his character (and agree that other people characterizing him as just an asshole is a really trivial, annoying reading of his character), but I think some of the examples of him taking responsibility are also examples of him running away.

Accountability isn’t just doing the thing you think you need to do. It’s a process with the people affected and your loved ones. But he repeatedly focuses on what he thinks he needs to do, to the exclusion of the needs and voices of the people he believes he’s hurting.

And, to some degree, that makes sense—they’re mostly kids. They can’t really weigh the pros and cons of their beloved Uncle Kaz sticking around vs the repercussions of their relationship. But he doesn’t go to others for help or even seek out the kids’ opinions.

So I agree that he’s not a bad person (he’s genuinely good in so many ways), but he is a very broken one. And part of the way that manifests is the way he withdraws completely from other people, and then follows that up with physical withdrawal, due to his guilt.

It’s not running away to avoid dealing with his problems, or out of cowardice, or to avoid taking responsibility—it’s a deep seated, pathological guilt and a lack of healthy non-yakuza role models that makes him unable to see any solution other than removing himself. He cannot fathom changing the world beyond the yakuza. Can’t fathom a kinder, better world the way Ichi does. So he runs. To protect others, but he runs nonetheless.

It’s sympathetic and understandable, but being your own judge, jury, and executioner isn’t accountability and leaves a trail of heartbreak in its wake.

Ultimately, his kids don’t need him to repent—they just need their Uncle Kaz.

(I also think this tendency is very much informed by his yakuza-influenced upbringing and morals. He thinks he can protect his actual family from his real or perceived fuckups the same way a yakuza family would expel a troublesome member. He thinks going to jail is paying his dues and he’ll be welcomed back to a family that is healthier for his sacrifice. Etc. But that’s almost an entire separate essay.)

Why I think the common perception of “Kiryu keeps running away” is incorrect

In this thread (or essay I guess) I will go through most of the games one by one to talk about the examples I've seen brought up for Kiryu's tendency to ‘run away’. 

My thesis boils down to: there's two different kinds of “running”. One is Kiryu thinking he's taking responsibility for something he's blaming himself for. The other is him taking responsibility for Haruka and his own happiness and basically an act of emancipation from Kazama.

Yakuza 0

So far I have not actually seen people bring up examples for Y0 actually. But Kiryu is a very different character here. At this point - at least at the beginning - he's still believing in the Yakuza. He doesn't feel like he has something to repent for yet. This changes through the game, especially with Tachibana’s death. If I'm missing anything here, let me know and I will add it to the list.

Yakuza (Kiwami)

Heads up that I only played Kiwami and not the original Yakuza, but since the story and the main plot points are the same, this shouldn’t really matter.

Kiryu taking the fall for Nishiki 

Personally I don't see this as running away at all, but I've seen Kiryu blamed for the consequences (especially Nishiki’s downfall and even his death and Daigo joining the Tojo Clan because he's so shocked by Kiryu supposedly killing his father) and it being called ‘running away’, so here we go, especially because it’s the first time we see Kiryu “running”. 

This is a very good example of Kiryu taking the blame/taking responsibility, because he basically thinks he's responsible - here for Nishiki (who's his kyodai and can't leave his sister behind) and Yumi (blaming himself, because he should have been there to prevent all of this from happening and probably even thinking this happened because of Yumi's connection to him). 

And in a way this is also a way out for him. For me the beginning of the game (I played it after 0) feels extremely depressing. Because Kiryu feels completely disenchanted with the Yakuza. To me it felt like at this point he was living this life because of other people and their expectations. He's climbing the ranks because he feels like he owes that to Kazama and he can't leave Nishiki. He gives Yumi the ring because that's what Reina and Yumi seem to expect him to do. Taking the blame for Nishiki is him taking action for himself, therefore an act of freedom (it's even the opposite of what especially Kazama would want him to do) and the very first example of Kiryu's self sacrificial nature when it comes to taking responsibility for others and the clan, thinking it's the only solution. It’s a pattern we see with Kiryu again and again: he’s taking the blame, thinking the only and best way out is to sacrifice himself. It’s not always what’s actually best for him, the situation or the people around him, but it’s the opposite of running, it’s facing the responsibility he thinks he has head on.

Kiryu resigning as chairman, giving it to Terada instead 

And here we go with a great example of “running” as a form of emancipation. It's one of the few times where Kiryu is actually selfish and not taking responsibility for the Tojo, but something more important and more personal instead. And I honestly think it's the best choice he ever made. Because while he's not taking responsibility for the Tojo, he's got something more important now: Haruka. He's responsible for a child and he obviously does not want this child to grow up the way he did. He knows he can't be a good father if he’s chairman. 

So why is it also a little bit selfish: it's literally his only way out of the Yakuza without consequences. It's not an organization you can simply *leave*. The people who held him in the Yakuza and in Kamurocho (Yumi, Reina, Nishiki, Kazama) are gone. And the only thing that's worth staying alive for is Haruka who needs him and she needs him *out of the Yakuza*. And it's his only way to be free from the Yakuza without making the Clan an enemy by being exiled or banished. Because he's the boss. You can argue about Kiryu's choice (Terada), but who else was he to choose? Majima to him was an extremely powerful man, but Kiryu has no reason to believe at this point that he would be reliable enough to lead the Clan. We see him as someone who abuses his underlings (including Kiryu, it's literally their first scene together), kidnapped Haruka and has an obsession with violence and chaos. The fact that this is a mask does not change it, because Kiryu has no reason to assume it is and even if he can't expect Majima to not use the mask as chairman. And he has no reason to trust Majima at this point. As far as Kiryu knows Majima’s loyalties lie with Shimano and/or himself. The other option could be Kashiwagi, but it's pretty safe to assume he wasn't interested. And to a degree Kiryu has some reasons to distance himself from Kashiwagi at this point considering he was just as involved with failing Nishiki and probably knew that Kazama killed their parents. It's nothing Kiryu would say out loud I think but subconsciously it's there. (And no, I don't think he magically owed it to Daigo to stay, but I already made a thread about Daigo's and Kiryu's relationship). And there’s also the very simple reason that Kiryu has no leadership experience, has been out of the Clan for 10 years and has to deal with a ton of survivor’s guilt, while he just learned that his father figure killed his parents. So that’s honestly not running at all. 

Yakuza (Kiwami) 2

Heads up again, I only played Kiwami 2 and not the original.

The only thing I can personally think of and I’ve seen brought up, is Kiryu being willing to die on the roof. And wonky writing aside, I think him being willing to die up there is a culmination of his survivor’s guilt mixed with the guilt he feels towards Kaoru, feeling responsible for her family’s death (even though he was a child himself) and also blaming himself for leaving the clan to Terada. It’s his first big “atonement by complete self sacrifice”. He’s not running, he thinks he’s solving the problem by taking himself out of the equation.

(Side note: it’s one of my least favorite scenes of the series because it feels extremely OOC. I think the writers/devs were going for some Hollywood action movie ending with Kiryu and Kaoru making out on the roof, etc, but do you really want me to believe he wouldn’t try to make Kaoru leave and get to safety and be totally fine with Haruka watching him die? Like, for real. It’s ridiculous).

If you squint, you could possibly count him not becoming chairman again, but my point from above still stands. That’s not running. It’s emancipation.

Yakuza 3

I think Kiryu leaving for Okinawa is one of the three times I see brought up the most as examples (the first being him running away from being chairman). And just like the first time I think it can count as running away, BUT just like the first time he actually does it for his own happiness and wellbeing and Haruka. It's him taking responsibility for his family. He's “running” from the Tojo and Kamurocho, but again: he doesn't owe it to anyone to lead a life of crime being unhappy, when he can have a happy life while his daughter has an actual happy life and childhood. Furthermore he assures that Daigo has people around him who have actual leadership experience (Majima, Kashiwagi, Yayoi), he has no reason to stay and sacrifice his and Haruka's happiness, especially considering Kiryu has no leadership experience and staying could also be seen as him challenging Daigo's power. So it’s not running, it’s once again emancipation.

Yakuza 5

The third big example I keep seeing brought up is Kiryu leaving the orphanage and start a new depressed life in Nagasugai. This, in my opinion, is another great example of him leaving = thinking he's taking responsibility and doing what's best for the people he loves, in this case Haruka and the other Morning Glory kids. And it's not that he's doing it because he wants to, but because Mirei Park successfully made him believe that the kids are better off without him, playing into a fear he very clearly already had before and that sticks with him for the rest of the games. I'm not saying Kiryu is doing the right thing here. In my opinion what he should have done was telling Park to fuck off and stay away from Haruka, but it is very Kiryu. Right until IW he feels like he has to repent for all the Tojo Clan ever did even though he hasn't been a part of it for a long time and they fucked up his life and keep dragging him back in. I think it's very smart of Park to get him out of the picture and completely isolating Haruka, so she can swoop in and manipulate her in this very fucked up Idol industry, making her think this was Haruka's dream. (Do you ever realize that if Kiryu told Park to fuck off a lot of sad stuff wouldn't have happened? Well). (Side note: I don't hate Park, she's a great and compelling character. But she's just like Arakawa: an abusive, manipulative parent grooming a kid for their own selfish reasons).

So: Kiryu's not running away. He's thinking he's doing the right thing by once again taking responsibility, taking all the blame and being self sacrificial. It's the wrong choice. But it doesn't mean he's running away.

Yakuza 6

Kiryu leaving for prison

in my opinion, another great case of him making a decision to take responsibility and atone for his Yakuza life, born basically out of what Park told him in Y5, that his past will ruin the kids’ future. I think none of the kids would agree, especially not Haruka and I'm not thinking it's the right decision, but it's very easy to see where he's coming from. And when Haruka leaves for Hiroshima (and then leaves Hiroshima when she learns she's pregnant) she's doing something very similar. I often saw “she's running away like she learned to run away from Kiryu”. No. She takes responsibility for others and her kid's safety the way she learned from Kiryu. Was it the right decision? Maybe not, but she is still very young and I will honestly fight for her right to make decisions that aren't perfect. And you can see where she's coming from, when she leaves Morning Glory. It's so much like Kiryu leaving in Y5 because he was convinced his past will ruin the kids' lives. It’s once again the opposite of running.

Kiryu faking his death

The top example of him taking responsibility and trying to repent for his life by condemning himself to loneliness, giving up everything he loves because he's convinced that's the only way to keep the kids safe, because they will never be safe as long as he's around. Mixed with his tendency to be self sacrificial and thinking he doesn't deserve to have happiness because of the people who died while he stayed alive, while he keeps endangering his loved ones. (I'm not touching the weird letter to Daigo here, because I already did that in a different thread).

Gaiden

I saw him not staying with the Jimas near the end brought up as an example of him running away, which in my opinion is just not working. He was basically forced out of hiding to help with the dissolution. That was a deal with the Daidoji. Why would he stay and endanger the orphanage when he just earlier saw that acting up could endanger the kids? I do think he cares about Majima and Daigo (and has respect for Saejima), but their feelings aren't worth risking the kids' lives for.

Infinite Wealth 

Kiryu not staying in the Jima-self-pity-shack

To say it bluntly: why would he? Coming there was already a huge risk. He's currently working on solving the mess the Jimas left behind, even though it should be none of his business. I see a lot of Kiryu hate for this scene, while I mostly was angry at Daigo, Majima and Saejima. Because time and time again Kiryu is dragged away from his civilian life to solve the mess of the Tojo Clan, that usually has nothing to do with him. At all. It's often started by Daigo being a weak chairman. (And no, I don't think Daigo is Kiryu's responsibility. Daigo at the point of becoming chairman has Yayoi, Majima and Kashiwagi with him. Why did Kiryu apparently fail Daigo, but they didn't?) But back to IW’s infamous 3Jima confrontation. Kiryu has every reason to be as pissed as he is. He had to help the dissolution during Gaiden, being basically sold by the Daidoji to the Yakuza cause. All of it wasn't his idea. Then the heads of the dissolution didn't see it through, flee into a fisher hut and it's once again Kiryu who suddenly has to solve the mess they left behind while being terminally ill. And then they have the audacity to ask him to abandon the cause and stay with them. Kiryu leaving with the Ichigang isn't only taking responsibility, it's also the right thing to do. And it's definitely not running away. 

Running from treatment instead of fighting 

Kiryu's lack of will to fight against the cancer is the culmination of his self sacrificial nature. It's on point. Because in the end he thinks that's what he deserves for his life and being alone with so many loved ones dead and people being added to the pile (like Rikiya, to his knowledge Kashiwagi, etc). He's just going full circle. He's alone and at this point he sees dying as being able to repent, join his loved ones and to a degree freedom from loneliness and the Daidoji leash. And in his mind the people who are still alive are better off without him, because as long as he's alive, he's a risk to their safety. With him gone, the Daidoji have no reason to threaten the kids anymore. It's very Kiryu. It's him on the roof in YK2 all over again. Finding his will to live again and fight is basically like him refusing to be chairman and leaving for Okinawa: because he's finally doing this for himself and his own happiness and not for the Tojo. And it makes so much sense that it happens through people who aren't Yakuza, but Date fighting for him, showing him all the people who love him and Ichigang as well, not the Tojo people.

But why the misconception?

Well, I feel like it's something that manifested as a belief in the fandom that a lot of people just stick to without actually questioning it. And a lot of times, it seems to be to make Kiryu responsible while taking responsibility from other characters (especially Daigo, Majima and Kashiwagi). In solidarity with one character another character gets the blame and that's - funny enough - usually Kiryu. He's magically ruined Daigo's life (I made another thread about why I think Kiryu's not as responsible for Daigo as some make it out to be) and responsible for basically every death in the series. If you read some takes, you could believe Kiryu's the true villain of the story. This is especially interesting because all those characters do similar things, but somehow that’s fine. Kashiwagi fakes his death and starts a new life. Majima drops Tojo responsibilities in Y2 to have a construction company (it’s not a civilian life though), he runs away from his (extremely young) wife, he leaves Kamorucho behind during the 3K-plan, he leaves the Yakuza grunts to hide in a fishing hut and he fakes his death in Y5. Daigo leaves the Tojo to drink his brains away with his nepo baby money, he basically vanishes in Y5 leaving the clan in disarray, he leaves during the 3K-plan and leaves with Majima once again when the dissolution isn’t easy. All of those characters have reasons for their behavior, Kiryu’s not more or less of an asshole for doing similar things. 

That’s my essay. It got far too long. Thank you, if you read all of this. 

I’m open to discussing my points. I’m not open to Kiryu being called an asshole just because a popular account says he is. 

[silenthillmutual]

frost 18/25/26 :)

18. their opinion on lying, stealing, and killing?

lying is totally good and fine in their book. absolutely necessary for survival and the morally correct decision when dealing with executioners. if alfred didn't want to be lied to he should have picked another profession. stealing is... well they haven't had much practice with stealing so it's not something they would do, but they only get uncomfortable when it's someone who has less being stolen from. they don't feel right about that. and killing is something frost is totally neutral about, like they hate doing it at first in bloodborne but they grow kind of numb to it. they're much more affected by suicide than murder.

25. how good/bad is their hearing? what about their eyesight?

his hearing is like. fine. he'll need hearing aids when he's older, in all likelihood. kind of hard for others to determine this, though, because he's got some auditory processing issues bc of the autism. the eyesight, though? well they're not as bad off as they could be but they do wear glasses. his lenses aren't coke-bottle thick or anything, but his vision is blurry when he takes his glasses off.

26. how do they move? are they clumsy? light on their feet? do they use mobility aids?

he's kind of clumsy! they have that problem where like. they'll be looking at where they need to go and then trip over their own feet. they get better as the night goes on in bloodborne, because they get better at dodging and rolling, but the first like two boss fights are a TOTAL mess. gascoigne watching frost try to kill the cleric beast like if that's a technique you're trying it fucking sucks. and when i play with frost in pathologic, he is a slow walker. is it because he's in pain or is it because he's trying to make sure he doesn't trip? why not both!

ty for the asks<3 questions here!

[skyrzeart]

“I don’t intend to stay here long”