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antimatterpod · 4 years

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Transcript - 46. #MeToo - Terok Nor

Liz here! Thanks to Covid ("thanks”), I’m either wildly busy, all day, every day, or I have hours and hours of spare time to fill.

I hate feeling unproductive, but I’m also a bit creatively drained right now, so I’m using that time to transcribe our back catalogue, going from new episodes to old. (And skipping, for now, episodes about Discovery and Picard episodes as they aired, which are more time sensitive and prone to becoming outdated than our regular two-weekly eps.)

I was a professional transcriber before I was a secretary/legal assistant, so I’m pretty happy with my accuracy levels, but you should know that I make corrections where one of us has clearly misspoken, and also tidy up some of the false starts and interruptions in our conversations, so that it’s easier to read.

[theme music]

Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. Today we're talking about episode 8 of season 5 of Deep Space 9: "Things Past".

Liz: And we have to thank Jules for suggesting this. And I definitely thought fondly of her as we open with Garak basically being an alt-right troll.

Anika: [laughs]

Liz: To summarise the episode, for those who didn't watch it, uh, this episode sees Sisko, Dax, Odo and Garak returning from a history conference on Bajor -- why these four people, I don't know -- where Garak is outraged that no one wanted to debate him about his so-called 'alternative interpretation' of the Occupation, and where Odo was hailed as a hero.

Just as they're about to return, something or other happens, and all four of them end up in a coma, but those characters themselves wake up six or seven years earlier, during the Occupation.

Anika: Nine.

Liz: I forgot the numbers. And there was confusion! Because--

Anika: Yeah, they think it's nine, but then it's eight, or -- I don't know. It was very strange. But that's not important.

Liz: No. The important thing is that they've been thrust into the roles of a group of Bajorans who were executed for an attempt on the life of Gul Dukat, and the man in charge of the investigation is a Cardassian civilian named Thrax, who reminds one of a certain shapeshifter. Who, by the way, is not at all coping with events.

And along the way, we learn that -- turns out Odo was kind of a collaborator, and also Quark's business practices are really terrible, and it's a miracle that he's allowed to operate in Bajoran space. And it turns out the Occupation … was bad.

Anika: Yep. And Dukat was slimy all the way through.

Liz: Oh, well, we knew that. But it's just seeing it, again, and again, and again.

Anika: Yep.

Liz: [dramatic sigh] I make it sound like this episode? I did. I just felt like we didn't need to know right away that the characters were physically in a coma on present-day Deep Space 9. Like, that took a lot of the mystery out of it.

Anika: Yeah. Honestly, I don't think I did like this episode.

Liz: [laughs]

Anika: I'll just start with that.

Liz: Yeah?

Anika: I found it, like, boring. Most of it was boring. It might be because of the whole framing -- they could have taken it out and done more with what was going on.

Liz: Yeah, the tension and the mystery of what's happening to them.

Anika: So that it -- yeah, so that it wasn't just very -- I mean, maybe I knew what was going to happen. I definitely have seen it before, because I remembered it being weird, I remember it being, like, why are they in Bajoran bodies? But they're not? But it's the -- and I knew, because you say it, like, five or six times on the podcast, that Odo's a collaborator.

Liz: [happily] Mm hmm!

Anika: So I knew that was gonna come up.

Liz: [laughs]

Anika: So maybe I was just, like -- because I knew the twist, I wasn't into the mystery? But also, I think they just didn't build it up at all. Like, Sisko did nothing. Garak was just sort of there, being Garaky.

Liz: But an unusually assholey version of Garak.

Anika: Yeah, yeah, especially Garaky. Like, he was Garak to the max.

Liz: GARAK TO THE MAX! Guitar squeal.

Anika: And Odo just moped the entire time, and I just wanted to -- I was just not into Odo at all. And Dax was the best, and she had, like, five minutes of screentime. So it was very -- it was just sort of like -- I dunno, I like the idea of, or the purpose of the episode. I think that it had a lot of interesting questions that they had just started to get to answering, and then it was over.

Liz: Yeah. I found it interesting to watch, because I had forgotten the twist that this is actually all "Odo's dream". And I thought it was a trap set -- like, a psychic trap set to torture Odo by a survivor, or someone who remembered what he had done. So I was disappointed by that "it was all a dream" twist. I think that's always weaksauce, and in this case, it was just particularly disappointing. "Odo's conscience is bothering him!"

But what I liked was Thrax, this Cardassian who turns out to be Odo, is -- he's played by Kurtwood Smith. And it's such a good performance, because he's his own character, but there are these tiny moments where he sounds like Rene Aubergenois. And he moves like Odo. And just these tiny hints that I really appreciated, because I remembered that twist, that Odo was the security chief who had these people executed.

Anika: Mm. I think that part was -- but that's something that could have been -- there could have been more of that.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And less of other stuff.

Liz: Yeah. I think Jules was right, last week, when she said this episode came too late in the series. Because I think this was a perfect season 2 episode, and should have held the place of "Necessary Evil", the so-called "noir episode" with black and white flashbacks to the Occupation, and a sexy widow and femme fatale, and all that. And Kira in her Resistance ponytail -- which is always delightful, but I think this story, and the revelations in it, needed to come much, much sooner in the series. And even Garak's behaviour felt more in line with him in season 2 than Garak in season 5.

Anika: Yeah. Like you said, Garak to the max. So I don't love Garak the way that all of fandom loves Garak. This is the episode of Anika's unpopular opinions! But--

Liz: Look, there's a reason we don't talk about Deep Space 9 as much as other series.

Anika: [laughs] But this episode, he was just smug and annoying. But I will say that the one interesting part of the entire episode was when he was basically saying that Bajorans were made to be servants, and are just naturally lower. That was interesting, because it was clearly, like, the Cardassian party line. It's like, that's what he learned in second grade. And so--

Liz: Yes.

Anika: Even though he's met Bajorans who don't fit that, and even though he is trying to learn and grow as a person, he falls back on that. Like, that is his ingrained belief, clearly from childhood. And that was interesting to me! But that was, like, a throwaway line.

Liz: I think it was more than a throwaway line! Because then there's Odo -- or "Thrax" -- Thrax's remark, which must have come from Odo originally, that Bajorans need to accept their place in history as a footnote, and servants to the Cardassians. And drawing a parallel between Odo and Garak, I think, was a really interesting idea. And it didn't quite come out, I think, as neatly or clearly as it could have.

Anika: Yeah.

Liz: But it highlighted to me that Odo is -- "Oh, he's such an outsider, he never took sides!" But he absolutely had a place in the hierarchy, and he was very well aware of it! He was below the Cardassians, but well above the Bajorans. And this makes sense, because, I think, to have the facilities he did, Dr Mora must have been a collaborator. And knew that Odo sort of spent his early years doing party tricks for Cardassians. Like, it makes sense that this is who Odo is. But, as always, it troubles me that they never really grapple with it beyond the occasional very special episode.

Anika: Right. I think that's what it is. This seemed very, "We're going to talk about these interesting ideas of the--" you know, what it was like to be in the Occupation for all of these other characters. For Quark, and for Odo, and for the people who are not actively involved in it, who are not Bajorans or Cardassians. But that's not really what happened.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: It was just sort of, like, "We're gonna wave at the idea of this story that could happen, but we're not gonna really grapple with any of those thoughts."

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: I mean, part of it is, if they did, then they would be stuck with Odo and Quark being main-cast characters who we still have to see every week and like, and care about, and be invested in. And it's harder to make those characters lovable when you do something like that. But I would have appreciated them more if they had. Both the show and the characters. Like, Odo and Quark are never going to be my favourites. They weren't, and they're not. But -- I don't know.

Liz: And I think, from a 21st century perspective, we can say, not every character in an ensemble has to be "likable" or "lovable".

Anika: Right.

Liz: And there's a real disconnect between what we know Odo and Quark have done, and the consequences and the way the story treats them. And Garak, too. And even Dukat is only -- the only thing that stood between Dukat and a canonical relationship with Kira was Nana Visitor going, "Uh, yeah, no, that's gonna happen."

Anika: "That's gross."

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: Yeah. So Dukat -- coming off of our last episode, where we really talked about Dukat, I was sort of into his smarminess. I was like, "Okay, I get why he--" because he's still charming! Like, he's horrible, and I hate him, but he's still charming. And it's like, this is so awful, and I hate it, but it's way more fascinating than sad Odo.

Liz: Yes!

Anika: Like, if Odo was -- I don't know. He was just Emo Odo, and that wasn't at all interesting to me. I wanted Odo to, like -- the scene at the end, between Odo and Kira was probably the best for it, because he did seem to actually be sort of looking in the mirror, and thinking about it. The fact that Kira is disappointed means more to Odo than anyone else. Including himself.

Liz: That almost annoyed me, because it was like, oh, well, you feel -- you know, do you feel guilty because you did it, or do you feel guilty because now the secret is out, and the woman you're in love with knows?

Anika: I think the second! Which is why it's like -- like, how is this supposed to make me care about Odo more?

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: I just get more upset with him. It's like, no, I don't want this character to be -- I don't. And what you're saying, that not every character needs to be likable, and that's totally true. But they -- I really get the impression that they're like, "Okay, so Odo is the curmudgeon, right? He's the guy who is unlikable on purpose to -- and that's his personality, but he's just hiding the fact that he's really a squishy teddy bear that we all love!" And it's like, no. I don't love him.

Liz: He's a squishy teddy bear who was a collaborator.

Anika: And is just sort of, like, sad about it? He's not--

Liz: Yeah, he's not--

Anika: He doesn't say in so many words, "I wish this didn't happen. He sort of does say it in that, like, when he's shouting at the end, when he's explaining, and when he's revealed. But it's like he's backed into the corner by his subconscious--

Liz: Yes!

Anika: --to acknowledge these things, and if the other people hadn't been there, I don't know if he would have learned from it. Like you said, he only cares because Kira cares. And it's like, yeah, if all these other people didn't know, would he just be sad about it, and not think about it?

Liz: I think that's the conclusion we have to draw. Because at the beginning, it's clearly on his mind, because he's obviously troubled by how he was feted as a hero at this Bajoran conference -- but he wasn't going to say anything. He didn't correct anyone's assumptions. And, you know, the story of how he goes from being a Cardassian yes-man to a person who does stand up for justice, even for Bajorans, would have been really interesting! And I almost wish that this had been an ongoing arc, and we sort of saw Odo's redemption story, and that it wasn't then thrown under the bus by his actions during the Dominion War.

Anika: Mm.

Liz: Because I feel like Odo is a really interesting character, and the writers just didn't realise fully what they were doing with him?

Anika: No. Right. I think that's true. I think they pigeonholed him into the Spock-Data mindset, and didn't realise that it could be different. That you could do different things. Like, they just talk about his identity discovery quest. That's his big arc throughout the whole series.

Liz: Yeah, and that's interesting and all--

Anika: Right. And it's good, and he does get to explore that. And I think it's good for him, and it's interesting. People who love Odo love Odo, and I think that's great. So even if it's, like, an identity arc that I'm not into, that's okay. But I do think that there are these interesting places it could have gone.

Liz: Right.

Anika: That they almost went to, but didn't quite.

Liz: Which brings me to the Ronald D Moore quote I found, and it's a bit long, but I'm gonna read the whole thing out:

"One of the things that always drove the writing staff nuts was the idea that Odo had been a policeman during the Cardassian Occupation, but had never gotten his hands dirty, that he had been above it all, and that everybody had trusted him. We never bought that. it seemed to me that if I were a Bajoran, I wouldn't trust the cop who's still on duty from the Occupation. Somewhere along the line something bad went down on Odo's watch. And "Things Past" was the show to say it."

And I'm like, yes, these are good points, but I do not for a minute believe that this was an ongoing concern for the writers department!

Anika: No. No. Because it never comes out!

Liz: No! No! In the first season episode ["A Man Alone"] -- this is from Memory Alpha -- but a character goes, "Why are you still in charge of security?" But that guy's -- you know, he's targeting Odo because "he's an outsider". Like, Odo is not a victim. Or, at least, he is a victim in the way that Garak is a victim of Cardassian culture, or Narek and Narissa are victims of Romulan culture.

And I do think that it makes a difference when you remember that Odo is actually very young, and much, much younger than Rene Aubergenois made him seem and sound.

Anika: Yeah. It's hard. I mean, it's hard when -- like, the Doctor in Voyager, people are always telling me -- you know, whenever I complain about the Doctor's age difference with any of the women that he is thrown together with, they're like, "Well, he's really, you know, if it's the fourth season, he's only four years old." And it's like--

Liz: THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT BETTER!

Anika: [laughs] THAT IS NOT THE GOTCHA THAT YOU THINK IT IS!

Liz: No!

Anika: So. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's hard to look at Rene Aubergenois and think of a teenager.

Liz: What I think we need is a remastered version of Deep Space 9 that casts Adam Driver as Odo. He's still probably too old, I just think he'd be very good in the role.

Anika: I like that you're just gonna put Adam Driver in every Star Trek.

Liz: I really like him!

Anika: Good goal. Good goal.

Liz: I like his weird face.

Anika: I like it, too. I think that I would have liked this episode more if -- I agree that the framing -- it was very gimmicky.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: I would have rather someone found the records, or something, and actually confronted Odo about it, or -- I don't know. It was this whole "let's put them"--

Liz: Bajoran investigative journalism.

Anika: Yes. Maybe we go to the history of Bajor conference, and in the middle of his big -- they're feting Odo, and someone comes in and says, "That's not how it happened, blah, blah blah." Like, I don't know, I think I would have enjoyed that more than this super sci-fi play with your mind -- it just seems like -- Worf and Bashir were just there to say quips and cash their cheque. It was just very--

Liz: And Colm Meaney and Cirroc Lofton weren't even in the episode.

Anika: Yeah. They were just not there. Kira gets one good scene, and it's still almost the best scene.

Liz: I understand that Nana Visitor was heavily pregnant at the time, but it is so frustrating that there is no -- that Kira has no presence beyond that final scene, when this story is so integral to her experience of the Occupation, and her understanding of Odo. And I almost wish that they had ditched the framing device and the conceit of Thrax, and just had an episode set seven or nine years in the past, and -- you know, get some high profile guest stars to play these doomed Bajorans, and … you know?

Anika: Yeah. Right. Because our cast were the doomed Bajorans, I didn't care about them at all! Nothing was going to happen to our people. They were just some random Bajorans. We didn't know any of them. We got the "Siri, tell me about this guy" -- you know, so we got their name and occupation and whether or not they had family. So who cares?

They're just -- on the one hand, you know, if they were saying, "The Occupation was bad all around, and any Bajoran dying is wrong" -- which I agree with! Like, I'll just say, yes, true. But that's not how it came across to me. It came across as, "We think that, by having Sisko playing this guy, that you're gonna care what happens. We're gonna put it entirely on Avery Brooks's ability to act two different characters at the same time in the middle of Odo's memory." What?

Liz: But he doesn't, really. Brooks is outstanding, and I think Sisko comes out -- Sisko and Dax come out the best of all characters in this story. But he's just playing Sisko.

Anika: Right, he's just playing Sisko. We never even see these people as Bajorans.

Liz: No!

Anika: Their picture and at the end, that's it.

Liz: The only character that I was concerned for was Dax, because I felt like, even if -- you know, execution, blah, blah, blah,she survives -- but whatever Dukat intends to put her through, that's an experience that she'll have.

Anika: Yeah!

Liz: And that tension in those scenes was palpable. It was really hard to watch!

Anika: Yeah, it was. I was sitting there, I was like, this episode should end with DAx holding up a Me Too: Gul Dukat sign.

Liz: [laughs]

Anika: That's all I could think, the entire scene, was, poor Jadzia is gonna end up--

Liz: I know!

Anika: --on one of Gul Dukat's lists by this psychic nonsense. And the fact that she was using Leeta as her name made it doubly -- argh! All of the women are going to end up on Dukat's list because of this horrible thing! Which the episode was not about at all?

Liz: No, which -- you know, I think, when sexual grooming and implicit assault is, you know, just a sidebar, that's maybe a problem. And we've complained about the all-male writers room for DS9, but yeah, it really jumped out at me that Dax is so important to driving the plot along, and she takes out Dukat, and she tries to free the others, and it's only the rules of Odo's dream that stop them. But the script treats her as an afterthought. She's barely -- she is not important to Odo's journey. And it's really frustrating!

Anika: Yeah. It was really frustrating. That's a good summary of my thoughts on this episode.

Liz: No, no. Like, I'm so glad that they have belatedly decided to confront Odo's presence in the Occupation. I think Quark comes out very, very badly in terms of using slave labour--

Anika: Oh my gosh. And his condescending tone of, you know, "Okay, now you're going to step out here with me. And now we're going to walk in a line together." And it's like, wow. WOW, Quark.

Liz: The amazing thing is that his bar isn't being firebombed once a week by people who hate the fact that he's still in Bajoran territory. I feel like, if Sisko had known about this, he wouldn't have been, like, "Oh, you're a community leader" back in the first episode. But, at the same time--

Anika: He's not a community leader.

Liz: No. No. But, at the same time, I think that Sisko did not know that, or did not suspect that, and that maybe suggests that Starfleet's understanding of the Occupation is pretty limited. And that makes sense, because--

Anika: Which I would believe.

Liz: --all of these terrible things on Terok Nor are happening during, like, mid to late Next Generation.

Anika: I know.

Liz: This is not the distant past.

Anika: It's weird. You know how we were saying, again, last week, how the Kazon were, you know, thirty years ago, they were the Bajorans. And this is a decade ago. A decade ago! Less than! The Bajorans were under everyone's thumb, and all of this stuff was going on, and it's kind of still happening. It's kind of still, like, yeah, they have Terok Nor, now, but they don't, really?

Liz: Hashtag decolonise Bajor.

Anika: They're asking a lot of questions, and really not interested in answering them.

Liz: Yeah, and I think that's one thing I found frustrating about the final scene. It's like, oh, Odo is sad, and Kira is judging him. But we know that there's going to be no long-term consequences. We know that his relationship with Kira doesn't change, and her trust in him persists. And I know this is very early in serialised or semi-serialised mainstream television, but it's just so intensely annoying.

Anika: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Liz: Like. Yeah.

Anika: I want there to be more consequences.

Liz: Yeah. And the thing is, like, I enjoy the complexity of Bajor suffering while the Federation is happily doing its Federation thing. I think that's terrible! But it's interesting, and it feels real. And it's the sort of thing that I wanted Star Trek: Picard to deal with, that sort of complex moral and ethical question. And it didn't.

Anika: Yeah, but -- yeah. They're really good at bringing up the question, and saying, "This is a question we could discuss." But then sort of sidestepping it, and saying, "Instead, we're going to tell a Star Trek story."

Liz: Yeah, and we're going to end--

Anika: And I get it, they're fiction, it's all good. But it's sort of, like, this is another [case where] we're going to rest on the idea of "Starfleet" and "Star Trek" as a thing, and we're not going to actually engage with it in any way. We're just going to rest on the laurels of "Star Trek is moral and good, and asks moral questions, and is telling us about society", and yet they don't say anything about society. They don't say anything about collaborators, they don't say anything about Quark and making money off of people's suffering.

Liz: No, it's usually just a funny joke.

Anika: None of that is actually being addressed in any way. It's just sort of there.

Liz: Yeah. Which I think--

Anika: And that's not going -- I just want it to go further. I'm not expecting Star Trek to give me answers. I think that asking questions is their role. But I think that they do need to engage with the questions, and explore the questions.

Liz: Right, and not just go, "Yeah, this is really complicated. Anyway, roll credits!"

Anika: Exactly. Exactly. This is really complicated. The end. We are Starfleet.

Liz: Yeah, and we can go, "This is really complicated," and maybe some regular characters feel differently about Odo, and maybe others like, say, Worf, go, "Oh yeah, that was a shitty situation, but you were doing your best. Hey, I nearly sided with Admiral Satie that time."

Anika: Yeah, Worf one hundred percent would, too. And I think that would be a great conversation because it would tell us something about both characters.

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: And how they were similar to each other and different from others, and finding those connections between people who -- on the surface, Worf and Odo are not much alike. Okay, I guess they're both in security, that's it.

Liz: No, and they're not friends. Yeah.

Anika: They are not alike. And so something that brought them together to have that conversation, and say, "This is how we're alike," and different from Kira, because Kira would rather die than make that choice -- that's interesting!

Liz: Right! And it's not that they don't answer the questions, because I don't think these questions can easily be answered. But the fact that they don't grapple with them at all, and it's just business as usual afterwards, that, to me, is disappointing. And this is not a problem unique to Deep Space 9, obviously. You know, that's--

Anika: No, and it's not a unique Star Trek problem, it's not -- like, every story -- we get it. And I'm not saying that I would do any better. So I'm not saying, "Ooooh, Deep Space 9 is bad! And Ron Moore is bad!" Like, obviously not. That's not true. That's not what I'm saying.

Liz: No.

Anika: What I'm saying is, as good as it is, it could be better.

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: Because these are really interesting questions that could be discussed in more nuanced conversations.

Liz: And I think that there is a level of dishonesty, now, in the approach to Odo and Quark after all of these long-overdue surprise reveals. You know, we can't just go back to seeing them as our lovable curmudgeon and his thief best enemy.

Anika: Yeah. That's what's -- that's hard.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. It's that they ask the audience to make that leap, without going to any particular effort to improve it? Without going to any effort themselves to make it work.

Anika: Right.

Liz: And it's sort of the same with Garak, because this is his first episode after he spent six whole months in jail for attempted genocide! And he's back, complaining that the Bajorans aren't nice to him.

Anika: You know -- ugh. Like, shut up, Garak.

Liz: Right, no one wants to hear your opinion.

Anika: That whole episode! The whole episode, I was just, like, no, you are not contributing to this. And then, when he stole the thing, and Odo is like, "I'm gonna add pickpocket to your resume," and he says something like, "Why would a simple tailor have high-level codes," or whatever -- and I was like, it is season 5.

Liz: Right!

Anika: We have to let the simple tailor stuff go.

Liz: You were just in jail for attempted genocide.

Anika: Like, I get that that's the party line. But it's stupid at this point. Odo is not an idiot, and Garak is not an idiot, and so, like, this whole, you know -- just saying it sarcastically, it just made me angry. I was just angry at the whole thing.

Liz: It reiterated my feeling that this is a lost season 2 episode.

Anika: Yes, I agree with this. Because I think that no one -- like, they weren't making sense. And, like, O'Brien could have had Worf's lines and nothing would change.

Liz: Right!

Anika: So, therefore, it could be -- whatever. Or Kira. Like, there was nothing Worf about that. And Bashir was just … Bashiring.

Liz: And bless his heart and all, but, you know.

Anika: So it was all just -- I don't know. Missed opportunities and lost potential. Because I wanted there to be more. I felt like we were past this, and we should be really digging deep into it instead of... [laughs] It's ridiculous how angry that line about the tailor made me, but I was just so over it.

Liz: It's just sort of emblematic of the problems with the episode. It's not that it's a bad episode, it's that it comes so late in the story as to be meaningless.

Anika: Yeah. So. Oh well!

Liz: You got a message asking if we wanted to talk about Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5. And you have not seen Babylon 5--

Anika: I can't do that.

Liz: --but I have.

Anika: I'll pass it onto you. Please discuss Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5.

Liz: So my secret shame as a Trekkie is that I like Babylon 5 better than Deep Space 9. I don't think it's necessarily a better show? But I think J Michael Straczynski was watchig Star Trek and seeing the things that annoyed him, and going, "I'm not going to do that." And then he does a whole lot of other annoying things. It's a show that I love, but I don't recommend it to new people because I don't think it's aged very well?

But one thing -- I will say it has more overt queerness, in its mid-90s way, than one season of Star Trek: Picard in 2020.

Anika: Well, that's yet another -- yeah. Let's just push that over. Yep.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. But one thing I felt like it did very well was that -- there's a character, Londo, who comes from this fading, once-glorious Empire. And he's -- I don't want to say he's Make The Centauri Empire Great Again Guy. Because it's more about Rome, and that sort of metaphor.

But there comes a point where he commits genocide against -- or a partial genocide -- against the people of another main character. And he is literally standing on the ship, watching as asteroids are driven down onto their homeworld.

Anika: Yikes.

Liz: And then he … is not forgiven. Or -- no. Some characters forgive him, and some characters even come to love him again, but no one forgets that he did this. And there is not a single point in the series (barring some of the weaker spots in season 5, which had a lot of behind the scenes drama) where -- "This is Londo, he is our funny alcoholic who has a terrible past. He also killed a whole million -- you know, millions and millions of people, and we kind of side-eye that." And it's not forgotten! It's so important! And it's important because he becomes a character who is determined never to do it again, but he goes through that whole story.

I don't know if I explained it very well [I didn't!], because I didn't want to get into the details of who, and what, and alien names, and whatever. But the funny alcoholic clown man with the vertical hair goes through this, and I think it's a much more nuanced take on this sort of story than Deep Space 9 did.

Anika: And I think, again, it comes back to that -- like, it was okay for Dukat to be the charming guy we love to hate. It was not okay for Odo to be that. That was a bridge too far for Star Trek. He could have this quote-unquote "dark past" -- and, you know, in that Kira scene, at least he admits that it probably wasn't the only time?

Liz: Yes!

Anika: But the fact that she was like, "If you tell me this is the only time, it'll be okay." It's like, no! That's not the lesson here. The lesson here isn't, "I did this one bad thing this one time, and I'm sorry about it twenty years later, so now you should love me again." The lesson is, I need to make up for this, and never do that again, and grapple with the fact that I am the type of person who could do it. Like, that's the story we need to be telling here.

The show had that moment, where they almost gave themselves an out from making Odo spotless except for his one spot, I guess? And at least--

Liz: No, and they didn't take it, and I respect that.

Anika: --they didn't do it, so that was good. But the fact that not much changes, that this doesn't change him, it doesn't change his relationships, it doesn't change the series, means that it still sort of is. You have this one spot, and whatever, we all have that one spot.

Liz: And I think that's the sort of disconnect that fic writers love -- and part of the problem is that I don't love these characters enough to do that work. Whereas, like, I just watched the Voyager episode "The Chute", and I'm like, "Wow, Janeway is really more than usually implacable this episode, and that's kind of inconsistent with past characterisation, but I think she's just still recovering from losing her ship in 'Basics' and she's more determined than ever to hang onto it and protect her crew?"

So, yeah, I think people who are bigger fans of Deep Space 9 will do the work.

Anika: That's fair.

Liz: And that's sort of the joy of being a Trekkie.

Anika: Yeah, 'cos we can go read those fics if we want to explore more. We can go looking for it, and it's probably there.

Liz: Right, and as much as I am not a Deep Space 9 fan now, there is always the possibility that one day I'll wake up and go, "Man, you know what I really want? I wanna read a lot of Kira/Odo!" It's gonna happen, I hate Kira/Odo. She can do so much better.

Anika: [laughs] I was just gonna say! NoTP, noTP!

Liz: No. No. I opened Netflix to watch this episode, and for some reason, it went straight to "His Way". I think that's where my flatmate and I noped out on our last rewatch. And I'm like, I'm a good person, I shouldn't have to see this!

Anika: [laughs] I mean, to be fair, none of the people that Kira dated were good enough for her. None.

Liz: No.

Anika: Zero.

Liz: One thing, though -- the other week, I read My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell. It's a contemporary novel, semi -- it sort of straddles the boundaries between commercial and literary fiction. But it's about a woman looking back at an affair she had with her teacher when she was fifteen, and it's a very stark depiction of grooming. And it made it really hard to watch those scenes with Dukat and Dax. Like, just so -- awful.

Anika: Yeah. It's strange how I really had a visceral reaction to that more than the whole rest of the episode. And it might partially be because -- okay, so I watched the season finale of SVU this morning. And it was their take on the Harvey Weinstein ordeal.

Liz: Oh no.

Anika: The season opened with this, you know, big case taking down a Harvey Weinsteinesque person, and it closed with his trial, and how absolutely impossible it was, because all of the -- you know, there was so much intimidation, and he was having these medical problems, and his lawyer was just completely--

Liz: Awful?

Anika: Like, her whole thing was, "Well, I'd rather have ten guilty men go free if one innocent man is brought down." And it's just, like, ugh. It's an interesting math equation you got going there, of lives for -- you know. But whatever, lady. And so that's how I woke up this morning, is what I'm saying.

Liz: That sounds nice.

Anika: And so maybe, when I got to Deep Space 9, and I watched the scene between Dukat and Dax, and I was just, like, "Oof, #MeToo: Dukat," that's what's going on here, you know, I was already in that mindset. So that's what I connected to, maybe?

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: Because it was -- and it's obviously not just SVU, it's in the news all the time. It's reality. Before Covid took over everything, it was like the backlash of the #MeToo movement.

Liz: Right, right, and then Fiona Apple's new album came out, and that was also about predatory powerful men, and her anger towards them, and all of that. It's sort of the wallpaper of our lives.

Anika: Right.

Liz: But I watched Dukat monologuing about, "I'm a father to the Bajoran people," and I was like, yeah, you also want them to call you daddy. And then I just felt like I'd really squicked myself out, because he is--

Anika: I need a -- [laughs]

Liz: Like, this fictional man preying on fictional women--

Anika: "I need a friend," and, you know, "you're the only one I can--" ugh. It was so gross. And there was a whole, like, flashback to Schindler's List, because they seemed very similar to the wine cellar scene. I was just, like, this is exactly what's happening here. And it was just really disturbing on every level. I was way more invested in that non-storyline--

Liz: Right!

Anika: --than I was in everything that was happening with Odo. And that is maybe just because, you know, quote-unquote "women's issues", and that's what I was interested in, because I'm a woman? I don't know. Because there weren't--

Liz: Not a lot of women in this episode!

Anika: --a lot of women in this episode. And so if I am -- and also, I don't relate to Sisko. I don't relate to Garak, for heaven's sake.

Liz: [laughs]

Anika: I definitely don't relate to Odo. So my options are limited in -- even if it was some -- even if I was going to relate to a man, or a male character, as a woman, there weren't any that were for me anyway.

Liz: I kind of related to Garak a little, in that he was being very much a Karen, and I--

Anika: [laughs] Sorry!

Liz: I said it to make you laugh!

Anika: That's perfect.

Liz: But, you know, as a middle class white lady, I am certainly prone to that sort of attitude, and sort of check it in myself. But what really interested me was Dax's story, and how -- you know, none of the men really play the role they're assigned. Whereas Dax throws herself right into the part -- if that's the right way to put it -- of this Bajoran woman who doesn't even get a name! But, like, she's a method actor, apparently. She eats the food, and tells him that she doesn't eat very well very often, and -- I was so scared for her! But so impressed by her at the same time.

Anika: Yeah. And she, like, gets out of the whole -- and it's also, like, because Odo's not in any of her scenes, it's like, what is even going on there? If she's just lost in his subconscious--

Liz: Right!

Anika: --then how is -- like, why is Odo's subconsicous writing a scene between Dukat and Dax? I was just -- like, if you think about it too much, you'll go down a bad rabbit hole.

Liz: Yyyyyeah.

Anika: So just, let's not

Liz: No, it's too late, I am already asking why Odo is writing this fic.

Anika: And just say, Dax is great, and she was smart and clever, and playing along, and getting rid of him, and could have actually -- could easily have actually killed Dukat, as opposed to being accused of killing Dukat, like everybody else. There was just so -- it was like, wow, the fact that he doesn't -- he's not afraid of her at all. He thinks he is in control of the entire situation.

Liz: Right!

Anika: And she, like, with two scenes, is able to completely destroy him. It was just, like -- that's what I'm saying, that story was way more interesting. Dax being cool, and getting one over on Dukat, was way more interesting than everything else.

Liz: And it also felt like a better depiction of the treatment of Bajoran women under Dukat than the episode where Kira goes back in time to judge her mother for being a comfort woman, essentially.

Anika: Yes.

Liz: Because I think that's another interestingly complicated episode that, in that case, does try to draw easy answers, and the answer is that Kira is incredibly judgemental.

Anika: Yeah, right.

Liz: In a way that I think was bad at the time, and has also aged badly.

Anika: It's just -- especially when you have this episode, where she's judgemental, for sure, but--

Liz: But so much more gently.

Anika: Yeah. And it's not -- it's like, "I'll forgive you, Odo, but I'm not gonna forgive my mother." Why? What is the--

Liz: Which I think is an interesting psychological choice.

Anika: Right! It is interesting! And it sort of -- it's another thing where you learn about Kira, and I don't think the writers intended us to learn this about Kira, but I absolutely believe that she is the type to hold her mother, and women in general, up to a higher standard.

Liz: Right.

Anika: And even, like, Bajorans, in general, up to a higher standard than she would Odo. I believe that of her. Not consciously, and not on purpose, but she would.

Liz: Oh no!

Anika: And so it's like, that's interesting, but I don't think they meant that to happen. I think that's just what happened.

Liz: No, and it's not a story I would want this all-male writers room to tell.

Anika: No. Definitely not.

Liz: One thing that I think this episode hinted at, but didn't really explore, is that after fifty years of occupation, like, no one comes out of this oppressive regime untainted. And so, of course -- everyone knows collaborators, and everyone -- except the most hardline Resistance cell members -- has to make a compromise to survive, for themselves or their loved ones. And that was a really -- they don't really discuss it, but it's come up in other episodes about the Occupation and Bajoran politics. And I just think it's worth remembering that Kira's attitude is sort of in the minority, because most people are more pragmatic and less idealistic than she is.

Anika: It's true.

Liz: Which is not to say that anything Odo did was okay, but I don't think he was -- I'm sure that there were Bajorans serving in security roles and police roles that also committed crimes against their own people.

Anika: Yes. And, again, those are interesting questions. Those are the people who are not the heroes of the story, and not the villains. They're the people who are just trying to survive.

Liz: Right.

Anika: And making choices. And some people make better choices than other people, and that's interesting, that's life, and that's -- again, those are interesting questions. And so, yes, Odo -- and when you brought up his age earlier, I think I cut you off before you actually got to your point, but if your point was that, at that time, he was young, and he was also alone--

Liz: Yes.

Anika: --because we know Odo as Odo, a part of our ensemble, who has these relationships with these people. But at that point in Odo's history, he didn't have those relationships, he didn't have people, he didn't have friends.

Liz: Right, exactly.

Anika: He was just the law and order guy. That was all he had, "I'm gonna create order." And so I can understand, from that perspective, of Odo, this choice.

Liz: Right!

Anika: And I wish that Odo took the time to try to understand his former self making this choice, and actually acknowledging that. Instead of me doing it for him.

Liz: Yes! And the journey he made from being straight-up law and order guy, and more about the order than the law, to developing an understanding of justice, and of becoming a competent investigator who did the work. That's an interesting story, and I wish we knew more about it, and I wish we knew how he learned, and who taught him, and all of that.

Anika: Yeah. And these are the whole -- I think I would be pretty into a Deep Space 9 prequel. I would love to know terrorist!Kira. Like, I wanna know more than what we get.

Liz: This feels like a great topic for, like, a high quality graphic novel. So, call us, whoever has the rights to Star Trek comics right now!

Anika: Yeah! [laughs] Exactly. I think you're right, it's a little too gritty for the high budget television series, but a graphic novel would be just right.

Liz: That, and -- yeah, I just -- if this is how Quark is treating his temporary bar staff, and waiters, what is he doing to the dabo girls?!

Anika: Oh God. Ew.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: What are the Cardassians doing to the dabo girls?

Liz: #MeToo: Terok Nor is something I've never really considered before, but--

Anika: It's very, very real, though.

Liz: Yyyyyeaaaaaahhhhhhh.

Anika: I get why people like Deep Space 9, because it is that realism, that gritty version of Star Trek. Like, I get it. I get it.

Liz: It just--

Anika: But it's still a little too -- I dunno.

Liz: To me, it half-asses the realism.

Anika: Yeah. It's santised.

Liz: Yeah. And I do understand that it's the nineties, and all of that, but that doesn't mean we have to acclaim it now. Like -- it tried, it was important at the time, it does many things well, even now, but -- you know? And I don't even think that, necessarily, uh, modern, twenty-first century Trek is doing hugely better. I was more optimistic after Discovery's first season, but then, you know.

Anika: Then Discovery's second season.

Liz: And Picard.

Anika: And Picard. Going backwards. I don't know. Star Trek is imperfect, and that's part of its charm.

Liz: And, to an extent, every series and every spin-off has to reinvent the wheel. And there is always a shakedown period of awkwardness, and trying to figure out how to do things.

Anika: Yeah, but that brings it back to, THIS IS A FIFTH SEASON EPISODE.

Liz: Right.

Anika: This season is supposed to be the best season. So what happened?

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Should we wrap up?

Anika: Sure. Yes.

Liz: It's a little bit short, but I don't know that we have more to say, and honestly, I've been at my desk -- I have been doing work every single day since Easter Sunday. And I'm so sick of being at my desk.

Anika: I'll say one positive thing.

Liz: Yes?

Anika: At the very beginning of the episode, when the shuttlepod is coming, and Worf is on the bridge, there is a woman -- who is his person on the bridge, I don't know -- but she's wearing the Bajoran uniform in grey, with the quilted -- it looked really good.

Liz: Oh, nice.

Anika: I was like, I really like these Bajoran uniforms. And I always liked Kira's, but in the grey, it was really interesting. It was more utilitarian, and also sort of more Starfleety, but looked really good. It was interesting, so I liked it.

Liz: As long as we're talking about costuming, there's a full-length shot of Kira at the very end, and you see her boots. And I've always liked the boots that she wears, whether the high heels or the flats, but they just looked like -- because she's so pregnant, they looked like very nice, solid, appropriate heels. And they looked really comfortable.

Anika: Kira boots over leggings is super nineties, and I love it.

Liz: Right, I was looking at them going, I remember coveting slouchy boots.

Anika: I dressed like that all the time.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: All the time! That was me. So good on you, Kira.

Liz: I spent the nineties dressing like Janeway in "Resolutions". So, yeah.

Anika: [laughs] No, but seriously, Kira was my fashion icon.

Liz: Did you own a crochet singlet?

Anika: She had -- yes, exactly! The crochet things. I still, whenever I go to a thrift store, I look for crochet vests and little dresses and things. And it's like, Kira and Kes were what I dressed like. Just, you know. Has nothing to do with this episode, but: fashion icon.

Liz: My other shameful Trekkie confession is that, as a feminist, obviously I think it's terrible that Nana Visitor was put in steadily tighter costumes and higher heels as the series went on. But from an aesthetic point of view? I'm really into it. See also: Seven of Nine's catsuit.

Anika: [laughs]

Liz: And I did -- I went through a phase of wearing heels like that everyday. And then I had to have foot surgery, and I never wore heels again.

Anika: You know, T'Pol's pastel velour faux uniforms that she wears in the last two season? Those are my favourite. I love them. They're so good.

Liz: I think it was TrekCore who retweeted a picture of a cosplayer wearing that outfit, and she looked amazing.

Anika: So bad and so good. Yes.

Liz: It's just kind of the Star Trek equivalent of the Juicy Couture tracksuit.

Anika: It is exactly! And it looks so comfortable.

Liz: By catsuit standards, yeah!

Anika: By catsuit standards, yeah. You know, it's probably horrible to wear. But it looks cosy.

Liz: I reckon it'd be more comfortable than what Jeri Ryan had. Like, it just seems like it moves better, and doesn't have an inbuilt corset, and has separate shoes.

Anika: Honestly, it looks more comfortable than what [T'Pol's] stuck in, what I call her couch catsuit.

Liz: Yeah, it does look like a cushion.

Anika: That is rough. Like, that looks really -- like, at least the velour is soft?

Liz: Yeah, the couch one often looks a bit cold. Like, it's very thin fabric. It looks cheap, basically. All the constuming on Enterprise looks cheap.

Anika: It was bad choices. Bad choices. T'Pol was happier in the later seasons, and I think it's partially because of her clothes.

Liz: I found a bunch of photos of myself from the early 2000s, and that was a bad time for fashion in general. Like, I was unfortunately very trendy then, and I have regrets. [laughs]

Anika: Yeah.

Liz: The extremely revealing singlet and boot cut jeans? Don't know what I was thinking, not gonna go back to that. I just wanna go back to my past self and put a cardigan over her shoulders.

Anika: And right now, it doesn't even matter what we wear, so.

Liz: I'm wearing jeans right now, but that's because, once we're done here, I'm going to mow the lawn, and I don't want my neighbours to see my terrible tracksuit pants.

Anika: I will be honest that I am back to leggings and boots.

Liz: Good.

Anika: That is, once again, what I wear everyday. And it's very cosy.

Liz: Yeah, I had some money set aside to upgrade my autumn work wardrobe, and instead, I spent it all on hoodies.

Anika: That was a good choice!

Liz: I'll probably regret it, come spring, but that's a spring!Liz problem.

Anika: That's right. That's the future. Who even knows what's gonna be -- pfft. Anything could happen between now and then.

Liz: [big dramatic sigh] Well, I know what's happening on our next episode, so!

[outro music]

Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod.

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