#odysseus and diomedes have such a fun friendship

[official-english-major]

Rereading the iliad bc the epic the musical brainrot is real (and also bc the iliad is a banger)

[johaerys-writes]

I know what your mythological otp is, but do you have a brotp and a notp?

BROTPs

I have some brotps though not that many, mainly because if there's a pair of fictional dudes that are just reaaaally close and always have each other's backs and everything I just imagine them secretly or not so secretly boning LMAO (I have a gremlin brain sorry) but here's what comes to mind:

Odysseus & Diomedes: I love reading their Iliad shenanigans and they also have great chemistry in TSOA so I always imagine them as this pair of friends that always have the absolute worst ideas to get everyone in trouble lolol.

Achilles & Ajax: they're technically cousins but I still love thinking about their friendship and how much respect and rapport there is between them. Some sources have them both training under Chiron, and also in the Iliad Ajax is basically the only person Achilles really listens to during the embassy scene.

Patroclus & Menelaus: this is one of those cases where I imagine them being friends and also boning LMAO but the fact that Menelaus fought so hard to keep Patroclus' body from the Trojans always makes me think that the two must have been quite close. I do actually think that they might have had a lot in common!

Also also this is pure headcanon territory but I'm really enjoying writing Patroclus' and Automedon's friendship in my fic As Fate Would Have It! I always imagined those two would spend plenty of time together, as Achilles' therapon and his trusted charioteer, so it's really fun to write them together now 😁

NOTPs

I honestly don't have many notps in general, I can’t think of a pairing that makes me so uncomfortable or something that I would never be able to consider it. But there are some that I just don't enjoy very much or that don't interest me.

Basically anything with Zeus is an instant no-no for me lmao I just don't like the dude at all 🤣 it's not even the non con aspect that features in pretty much EVERY pairing he's in, it's just... idk, the male entitlement of it all truly doesn't appeal to me. I don't want to know what he's up to and I'm not sure I'd read a story about any of his escapades (i.e. him chasing young girls and boys around and ruining their lives for fun 🙄)

Helen/ Paris: this is another pairing I can't see in a favourable light. I feel like it's pretty clear in the Iliad that Helen doesn't really like him and is miserable in Troy, and when she is shown to go to bed with him it's because Aphrodite threatens her and twists her arm to do it. I believe that there are interesting layers to their relationship and that there's a lot to consider here, but I probably wouldn't seek out any cutesy shippy content with those two. (But if we're talking about a Paris/Helen/Menelaus... now that's a different story 👀 haha)

Thank you so much for this ask!

[babyrdie]

Since your genderbent patrochilles headcanon is based off of them in the Iliad how do you think they would be in The song of Achilles universe??

Well, to be honest I really don't know. Like, let's first analyze the female characters in TSOA:

Philomela is a vague figure. What we know is that she was happy to be married and got married young, but unfortunately her marriage was terrible. She also liked to play the lyre and apparently had some kind of intellectual disability. She was not treated with dignity by her husband or by the other people in the kingdom and everyone made fun of her disability, unfortunately. Patroclus loved her and had an attachment to her lyre because of that, but he also did not have a normal mother-son relationship. What we have of her is a portrait of a person who has become a broken shell after years of abuse.

Iphigenia is sacrificed before she even has time to show her desires, her personality, etc. We don't get to see her protest, see her dialogue with Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, see her interact with Orestes, see her try to defend herself, see her offer herself, etc. We don't know anything about her, we only know that she's a victim.

Deidamia SAsed Achilles, whether it was intentional or not. She then also slept with Patroclus while humiliating him. She's a stereotypical "other girl", portrayed as vain, annoying and intrusive. She's still a tragic figure in the sense that she loves someone who does not love her and now has to be a single mother, but that is it. Although she is an authority figure in Skyros because the book says that she is the one who takes care of the kingdom and not Lycomedes, she's portrayed as someone you don't take seriously and a spoiled brat. Her character is mainly that of an abuser and an inconvenient person, although there is an attempt to give sympathy.

Helen chooses Menelaus from among the suitors and that's all we know about her, we don't even see her face because she wears a veil. We know that Penelope is loved by Odysseus and apparently didn't want to stay still to serve as a reference for his ship so the painters had to follow her. We also know that Diomedes doesn't have a good marriage because his wife, Aegiale, is a difficult person. So all we know about them is really about their husbands. Menelaus wants his wife back, Odysseus wants to return home, Diomedes has a bad wife. Penelope is a character from Circe and apparently her personality appears there, but I haven't read Circe so I can't say.

We only know that Chryseis is mistreated and abused by Agamemnon. Achilles' slaves have friendships with each other and with Patroclus and they marry the Myrmidons. Briseis has a strong personality, although she is still kind. She, however, still falls in love with Patroclus. She is almost abused by Agamemnon, but this is prevented by Patroclus. Ultimately, she dies while trying to swim to escape being Neoptolemus' prize.

Thetis was abused by Peleus and has a deep contempt for humans, perhaps because of the abuse, though this is not stated in the book. She is generally an unsympathetic and cold figure, portrayed as a powerful and frightening creature. She is a bad mother, as she forcibly separates Achilles from a person he cares about (Patroclus) and causes her own son to be abused (by forcing him to sleep with Deidamia). Despite knowing what happened to Achilles, she still tries to do the same to Neoptolemus. Neoptolemus's horrible personality is portrayed as partly Thetis's fault. After Neoptolemus also fails, Thetis realizes that her attempt to elevate her descendants to immortality by suppressing their goodness and encouraging their bloodthirsty warrior aspect is flawed. In the end, she decides to free Patroclus's soul, thinking that this will make Achilles happy in Elysium.

So, these are the characters:

Characters who get in the way of the couple's romantic relationship and lead to abuse in some way, but who are tragic mother figures: Deidamia and Thetis.

Characters who are voiceless victims, but who serve in some way to develop male characters: Philomela (Patroclus' bad childhood), Iphigenia (Achilles' trauma), Chryseis (Patroclus' sympathy for slave women).

Characters who serve to characterize their husbands: Helen (Menelaus wants his wife back), Penelope (Odysseus misses home because he loves his wife. Again, I don't know what Penelope is like in Circe), Aegiale (Diomedes has a bad wife, perhaps the reason he is not as anxious as Menelaus or Odysseus to come back).

Friendly character: Briseis.

Briseis is the only female character who doesn't represent either the voiceless victim archetype that develops the male character (Philomela, Iphigenia, Chryseis) or the character who gets in the way of the romance (Thetis, Deidamia). The information about her is also really about her, rather than another character (Helen, Penelope, Aegiale). Still, a lot of what people like about her is her relationship with Patroclus more than her per se. Therefore, I can't imagine sapphic Patrochilles functioning in the TSOA universe, as they would likely be voiceless victims or characters who, while sympathetic to a certain extent, are people who only hurt others while trying to fulfill their desires. They, however, would likely be lesbians as TSOA eliminates any and all interest Achilles and Patroclus have in women and portrays them as apparently gay. They would also be monogamous, as is the case with Patrochilles in TSOA. While I like TSOA, female characters aren't its strong point. The TSOA universe makes MLM romance work, but I can't imagine a WLW romance in it. Sorry :/

Again, I didn't read Circe. I think it would be easier to answer if I had read Circe, as it has a female main character.

Also, to be fair: I would say that my genderbend is inspired by mythology in general and not specifically The Iliad. If it were The Iliad, I honestly don't think I would have much to do either. The mortal female characters (Briseis, Chryseis, Diomede, Helen, Cassandra, Hecuba, Andromache) are all in victim status in this context of war. Andromache and Helen, in particular, have a lot of voice, but in the end they still can't do much in their positions. Cassandra and Chryseis don't speak, Briseis only has one line. Hecuba doesn't get much attention either, we only know she grieves her sons. The more active female characters are all immortal (Thetis, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite). There is mention of the Amazon Otreta, but it's a quick mention. The Odyssey does better in this regard, in my opinion. Penelope has a lot of voice, and while she's not actively doing much right now, we know she's tried her hand at it before (e.g. tricking suitors with weaving). Nausicaa and Arete are portrayed as wise, and Nausicaa does help Odysseus. Helen also has a voice, and we know she collaborated with Odysseus in the Trojan War. The slave girls characters are less fortunate, as we don't know most of their personalities. We only know that Melantho was supposedly raised by Penelope, and Euryclea is the archetypal faithful slave. Anticlea is the portrait of the grieving mother, but this was already present in The Iliad because it is common in war contexts. This, of course, only considering mortal characters because, for example, Athena and Circe are very active. I think that sources from later periods have female characters of greater prominence and action, such as Medea in Argonautica, Atalanta in her various myths, Antigone in the plays of Sophocles and Euripides, etc, Penthesilea and Oenone in Posthomerica… my inspiration is largely in this type of character.