#nuance is abundant and I hate when I see people thinking that issues of this magnitude don’t have any nuance

[noodle-shenaniganery]

can we stop trying to bully people into advocacy, please?

can we stop making people feel personally responsible for issues they only just heard of and may not even understand?

can we stop yelling and berating people who aren’t putting all of their (probably limited) energy into researching something that has almost nothing to do with them and which may stress them out?

can we stop pressuring people who are already struggling to survive to limit their options on how they can live, what they can eat?

please?

please

can we stop

[fancyfade]

im on twitter and seeing an audience of wfa that never read the comics, majority of their knowledge is from fics or other ppl’s comments on the subject. Like, there’s a person explaining the Robins to someone who started getting into wfa and Tim’s summary was “neighbor rich kid whose parents weren’t around and followed Batman & Robin with a camera” and bringing up how sad of a time Tim goes through. Jason is “revived by Ras Al Ghul (villain)” and it must be mentioned Jason tried to kill Tim. 1/4

Damian’s is just “assassin child who hates all other Robins and wants Robin for himself.” Some baseline introductions to Tim and Damian’s relationship is just: Damian almost killed Tim by punching him off a dinosaur and Damian cut Tim’s line and nothing else. Ofc their relationship was built on mutual jealousy and instigation (more so on Damian’s end but come on he was practically born and raised to think Violence is Always the Answer he should catch a break by now) 2/4

There are so many other examples of people bringing up wildly inaccurate “facts” of the batfam that you could easily find in abundance in fics. This one’s specific but it doesn’t help that a lot are from woobified Tim fics (i read those fics for fun! but going through those fic comments you start seeing the direct line from wfa introduction directly to fav character whump fics rather than the comics because it IS easier than diving into thousands of comics!) 3/4

Basically wfa is both great for introducing more people to the batfam, but also horrifically misinforming people of these characters when they try to delve deeper by reading fics rather than the comics themselves (i do see plenty getting into the comics, even start buying them! but the vast majority dives headfirst into fics). There’s plenty of canon-informed and well nuanced fics ofc but there’s also an abundance of heavily biased ones that may only contribute to old and undying opinions 4/4

TY for info anon!

NGL if they include Damian cutting Tim's line they should also include Tim putting Damian on a hitlist... like none of Damian's actions are illogical from his POV (this isn't saying they're EXCUSABLE just that there's solid logic behind it from his POV). and I did observe earlier today fandom also likes to ignore that Damian saved Tim's life (link).

(and ofc WFA made it look like Damian was messing up missions to spite Tim when that literally never happened).

I do feel like the bar for getting into comics if you fanboy Tim (and even Damian) is not super high NGL. Tim had a 200 issue solo title you could pretty much just read through it til you get bored barring a few crossover issues. like obviously no one is OBLIGATED to read it, i'm not the comics police, but I do think that the canon version is so much more interesting than the fanon version so I can't see why people wouldn't want to read it.

I know some really unpopular characters its hard to find comics for and you have to skip around a lot or read team series you don't care about the other characters for, but when a character is super popular you can normally get a good idea of them just reading their solo.

I think WFA managed to skate over all of Jason's violence to Tim which is hilarifrustrating b/c Jason really had it out for Tim way more than Damian did xD

[wheelygoodteddys]

Read up racists and Islamphobes, that's if you can!

"I think that a lot of us are shying away from an obvious truth, that the kind of blatant racial prejudice we are witnessing in Ferguson, Missouri, has everything to do with stupidity.

I’m talking about low intelligence, lack of mental ability, cognitive rigidity. The Ferguson racists may be a lot of other things—hateful, insecure—but let’s not sugar-coat what most fair-minded thinkers believe in their hearts: A person of intelligence cannot embrace such authoritarian and racist views.

Intelligence is a scientific concept, something scientists can measure, and have for a long time.  And interestingly, this connection between stupidity and prejudice once seemed obvious to social scientists as well. Early theorists suggested a link between low mental ability and prejudicial thinking, and gathered some strongly suggestive evidence to support that view. But there were some knotty methodological and statistical problems that hampered this early line of study, not to mention a huge wave of political correctness, and it was largely abandoned.

But not entirely. A small cadre of psychological scientists have continued over the years to explore the controversial connection between low intelligence and prejudice, and at this point they have overcome most of the methodological barricades, allowing them to rigorously analyze and answer this important societal question. Two of these researchers—Kristof Dhont of Ghent University, Belgium, and Gordon Hodson of Brock University, in Canada—have been studying the idea and synthesizing the work of others, and they summarize the fruits of this ongoing project in a forthcoming issue of the journal Current Directions in Psychological Science. The short answer is yes—there is a clear, predictable and causal link between low intelligence and prejudice, including racism.

Let’s not stop there, however. It’s important, when dealing with such a controversial topic, to get down into the evidentiary weeds a bit. One of the problems plaguing the early research was that the results were confounded by other possible causes, like financial status and class and education. That is, it could have been these things, and not intelligence per se, that led to prejudice. Scientists had trouble sorting all this out. Scientists also didn’t have longitudinal data—data gathered on the same subjects over time—so they could not address the important issue of cause and effect. Plus their study samples were not representative of the population. But scientists have over time solved these problems, and the key finding has held up: Empirical evidence has consistently linked low intelligence with prejudice.

Importantly, scientists have measured intelligence in a variety of ways, and the main conclusion always holds up. In one study of white children, for example, some were less able to see that a short wide glass holds the same amount of water as a taller skinnier glass. This ability is known as “conservation” in the jargon of the field, and it’s widely considered an important mental ability. In this study, the kids who lacked this ability also held more negative views of black children. Other researchers conducted an ambitious meta-analysis—a statistical aggregation of findings from many studies—and this also documented a link between cognitive style and ability, on the one hand, and authoritarian attitudes on the other.

Longitudinal studies provide some of the most convincing evidence. One such study looked at general intelligence in 10- and 11-year-old kids, and then re-studied those kids as adults two decades later—and found a clear connection between low intelligence and subsequent racism and sexism. Similarly, higher intelligence in childhood has been shown to predict less racism in adulthood. These analyses strongly suggest that low intelligence actually leads to hateful attitudes later on.

This is just a sampling of the accruing evidence on this point, all of which points to another puzzling question: Why? Why would verbal ability and math skills and other cognitive assets translate, over the years, into such hateful attitudes?

Dhont and Hodson believe they have an answer to this, again one based on rigorous abundant evidence. Their theory is that right-wing ideologies attract people with lower mental abilities because they minimize the complexity of the world. Right-wing ideologies offer well-structured and ordered views of society, views that preserve traditions and norms, so they are especially attractive to those who are threatened by change and want to avoid uncertainty and ambiguity. Conversely, smart people are more capable of grasping a world of nuance, fluidity and relativity.

The empirical evidence supports this link, too. Low intelligence and “low effort thinking” are strongly linked to right-wing attitudes, including authoritarianism and conservative politics. And again, there appears to be a demonstrable causal link: Studies have found, for example, that children with poor mental skills grow up to be strongly right-wing adults.

There is a final link in the chain of causality, according to Dhont and Hodson. Considerable evidence shows that conservative ideology predicts all sorts of prejudice—against ethnic and racial minorities, the disadvantaged, any outgroup. Indeed, right wingers are much more likely to see outgroups as a threat to traditional values and social order, resulting in heightened prejudice. Dhont and Hodson tested and confirmed this mediation model: Lower childhood intelligence clearly predicts right-wing ideology and attitude, which in turn predicts prejudice in adulthood.

The scientists elaborate on this idea in the Current Directions article: Intelligence and thinking determine how people assess threats in the world. Those with lower ability—reasoning skills, processing speed, and so forth—prefer simple and predictable answers, because that is what they are capable of processing. Any uncertainty is threatening, and they respond to such threats by trying to preserve what is familiar and safe, the status quo. These conservative reactions are basic and normal—they reduce anxiety—but over time they harden into more stable and pervasive world views, which include stereotypical thinking, avoidance, prejudicial attitudes and over discrimination.

The weight of evidence is hard to ignore, yet according to these scientists, it is conspicuously absent from contemporary theories of prejudice. They believe that it’s time for psychological scientists to stop ignoring the evidence—that in fact the field will benefit from open discussion of these controversial findings. The country might as well, and the events in Ferguson may well trigger that discussion."

Wray Herbert’s reporting on psychological science

[evakteket]

Watchlist update!

Halla, lovely evak shippers ♥  We hope you’re all enjoying season 4 so far, and are being kind to yourselves and each other. Alt er love.

It’s about a week since the last WIP watchlist update, so here we go again!

We’re always on the lookout for new fics, so let us know in our ask box if you have any suggestions--there’s a lot out there to get through and we don’t want to miss the best of it!

Update summary:

Completed: 2 Added: 5 Removed: 0

News:

i guess that’s destiny doing it right by allyasavedtheday (@littlespooneven) NEW

Rating: mature. In this AU Even and Isak didn’t get together while they’re in school, but they meet in Barcelona the summer before Isak goes to uni. It’s a sweet and gorgeously detailed and extremely satisfying reunion fic so far, with the guys’ interaction being every bit as lovely and natural as in canon. We love the more confident Isak in this, and the Spanish summertime vibe. Don’t forget to get your Ed Sheeran on while reading. - kit and immy

Vi trenger ikke verden by Kudzibisa (Norwegian) NEW

Wrong number AU, coffee shop AU, Norwegian fic that flows like the show itself with beautiful interaction, hilarious turns of phrases and the clipped slang-y language of SKAM; this is a fic that hits pretty much all my buttons. If you can read Norwegian, don’t miss out on this. - immy

Straight Up (series) by @nofeartina NEW

From the second work in the series, this is rated explicit… and rightfully so, omg. It’s nearly impossible to say anything useful about this because we’re (hopefully temporarily) not very capable of expressing ourselves beyond vague rambling about “fluffy smut” and “hot” and “holy shit this is hot” and “have we mentioned yet that this is hot”.  We’ll let you know when we pick our jaws up off the floor.- kit and immy

Checking from Behind by DickAnderton (@wecanjustbreathe) NEW

A slight disclaimer is probably in order here, because I (Kit) am betaing this fic, but I’m too obsessed with it not to rec it. This is a hate-to-love AU, set in my absolute favourite of AU universes–college ice hockey! You don’t need to know anything about the sport to be intrigued by this fic, which definitely isn’t your standard Evak storyline. Warning: Isak and Even both explore relationships with women in this one, so see the author’s notes. -kit

Head Over Heels by LostInAdmiration (@call-this-a-mask) NEW

I’ll confess I have a soft spot for skateboarding AU. In this Jonas is the skateboarder, Isak is his friend filming and taking pictures. Of course, there’s also the handsome rival skateboarder… There’s attention to details and the guys feel real, it’s charming and angsty and well worth subscribing to. - immy

How In My Silence I Adored You by @dahlstrom COMPLETE

Completed, rec here.

Lost Boys (Not Ready To Be Found) by kittpurrson (@towonderland72) COMPLETE

Completed, rec here.

Still on the watchlist from last update:

Life Is Now. (and now, and now) by @flybynightgirl

This is an incredibly intense fic, written by an author who is intimately familiar with bipolar disorder. It’s hands down one of the best portrayals of an episode and its buildup/aftermath in the fandom so far. It’s post season 3, and has timestamps just like the show does – basically it’s a continuation of the season, and the conflict is far from over. Although there are a couple of moments when supporting characters make choices that seem ooc, the massive emotional pull of this fic is not to be underestimated. Not to mention that this fic also has humour and very lovely portrayal of friendships in abundance. - kit and immy

Falling (The World is Yours) by chips2

This is basically “what if Even was the main character of season 3?” It’s first person, present tense, so beware if that’s not your thing, but I love how it fleshes out Even’s backstory and thoughts and imagines a world for him beyond his relationship with Isak. An obligatory warning for people with experience of BPD–this fic does portray therapy sessions, and ymmv on how realistic they are. - kit

A Collection of Even & Isak’s First Kiss AU Shorts by @fandomlimb

Just what it says on the tin: first kisses, a different AU in each chapter. Adorable and fluffy so far. - immy

Spacewalker by evenvaltersen

How the hell you can make a Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo AU work with SKAM characters is beyond me, but evenvaltersen manages just that, in my opinion. This may be my obsession with Christiane F talking, but give it a go. Be warned: it’s every bit as gritty and sad as you can expect something based on a mostly true story about teen drug addicts in Berlin in the 70s to be, no fluff here. - immy

making new clichés by strangetowns (@douchenuts)

This is in its early days, but oh-so promising! It’s another Evak as best friends AU, but it’s incredibly well-written thus far and it has a very realistic, nuanced portrayal of their relationship, which is already just close enough that it has us absolutely stoked for the moment it tips over into feelings too big to ignore. - kit and immy

Those, who could not hear the music by UniversalParadox_13

This is also pretty new, but again shows a lot of potential to be one of the fandom’s most interesting AUs–this one has Even and Isak as ballet dancers. Although it can go a little overboard with the italics, this fic is already super interesting, has a well-done portrayal of the ballet world, and promises to eventually venture into *drumroll* smut territory. Yep. That got your attention, didn’t it? - kit

it comes in waves by @moonlitbird

Also known as the mermaid AU. Yes, you read that right: MERMAID AU. This mermaid tale (!) is beautifully written, and is probably the best fantasy AU this fandom has, with a perfect twist on Even’s disorder and how it wreaks havoc on the relationship. The entire premise is fascinating, and flawlessly executed, and Kit is basically obsessed with this right now, so you should check it out and head on over to fangirl it with her literally ASAP. OMG. - kit

with love, from anonymous by cosetties (@adamparishe) and iriswests (@westiris)

Fuck yeah well-written slow burn coffee shop AU! It’s also a secret admirer fic, and to be honest that sets off my skepticism, but this is such great fun and the fuckups and misunderstandings and coffee spills abound. It’s not entirely light-hearted; it comes with a dose of angst and frustration and the problems you can expect from life as well. - immy

Are You Lost? by @noorasevas

This Amsterdam AU is clearly written by someone who knows and loves their city, and we are so hooked on touristy Isak and urbane Even in this, as they manage to miss each other and lose each other and find each other. Of course Isak isn’t on his own here: the entire Boy Squad is on holiday together, and you can probably imagine how that rowdy group comports themselves in Amsterdam.

Scene Three, Take Two by @folerdetdufoler

This is a future-ish fic that deals with Even and Isak meeting and discovering their feelings again when they’re a bit older, post-breakup and Isak is a vet student. There’s a slight non-Norwegian issue here, and I’m not quite sure I buy Isak’s reasoning for their breakup, but this fic is very promising nonetheless–and all the more exciting for being the writer’s first in the fandom. Go show them some love.- kit

A Transference of Feeling by @rumpelsnorcack

This is a very well-written what if AU, with the premise that Isak transferred to Bakka instead of Even going to Nissen. Even is repeating his third year and Isak’s a transfer who knows nobody there. This fic has a few issues in terms of getting Norway right, but makes up for those problems with very intriguing relationship-building between Isak and Even. Switching up the setting really highlights how much the two of them actually needed to find each other. We’re definitely liking it so far. - kit and immy

The Weight of Us by verlore_poplap (@mimi-fics)

This is a very interesting fic, in part because it’s so different to a lot of the stuff in the fandom so far. Isak and Even meet when they’re older, and in serious relationships with Emma and Sonja–in case alarm bells are ringing, yes, Isak and Emma are together, but the author uses the context of their relationship to explore what would have happened if he’d repressed his sexuality, which I think is very cool. The author also treats Emma very fairly. The fic has a few minor niggles–Isak, for example, at one point performs a super rare kind of heart surgery–but overall this fic has me really intrigued, and I can’t wait to read the rest. - kit

hot like fire, take you higher by birthmarks (@fyfaenjonas)

Rating: mature. This is kink exploration. The author takes it slowly and gently up from Isak finding out what a kink is, through Isak and Even finding out what their kinks are, and well. Hot. There’s also well-written dialogue, there’s the boy squad and fluff and stressing the importance of communication with your partner, so it’s not just a PWP (not that there’s anything wrong with that). Get your cold flannel and go read. - immy

[firstumcschenectady]

“Enough” based on Exodus 17:1-7 and Philippians 2:1-5

Not to give the answer away or anything, but I think both of these passages try to prod us toward trust; trust in God and trust in each other.  Exodus tells of God giving the people what they need, Philippians instructs people to take care of each other (which is a way of ensuring everyone's needs are met, if it is done well).  When people are paying attention to each other, and to the ones who are most vulnerable, God's abundant creation is able to care for all.  I suspect that trusting in God requires two things of us:  trusting in each other, and being trust worthy for each other.  Let's take a deeper look.  

The Exodus story is about the people of God being quarrelsome, whiny, and unfaithful.  Or, at least, it seems to be.  I've never quite understood this passage though, because they're said by the text itself to be quarrelsome, whiny, and unfaithful BECAUSE they want access to water, and are afraid that they are about to die of thirst. Just as a reminder, they are wandering around a desert.  In fact, in the Bible, the words desert and wilderness are functionally interchangeable, and they both indicate that the land is not capable of sustaining human life without God's help.

The people are in the desert without water, and they ask for water, and that's unfaithful?  I don't follow.  It doesn't seem unfaithful that the people in Puerto Rico are asking for water, water is necessary for life, and they don't have water.  They need more than water, but they desperately need water.  Just like the people in the desert.  In both cases, asking for water doesn't make them whiny, or quarrelsome. It makes them alive, and wanting to stay alive!  Being without water is dangerous to life!  Articulating that it is a problem and asking for help finding a solution is reasonable, rational, and wise.  

Regarding Exodus, I don't think the people misbehave nearly as much as Moses does.  The people notice there isn't water and ask for water.   Now, if we want to defend Moses we can say that they don't ask terribly politely (“Give us water to drink.”) but within the story itself Moses has preformed a heck of a lot of miracles already and has claimed to be leading the people.  They don't know why he hasn't dealt with this already.  If the leader isn't taking care of the people's needs, the people need not be POLITE in demanding what they need to live.  

Moses responds poorly.  He takes their request personally.  He asks why they are quarreling with him and why they are testing God.  Clearly we can now see whose perspective is dominating the interpretation of the story!  (Maybe this is why the tradition has said Moses wrote this book... ;) )  His angry response and accusation quiet the people momentarily, but they are still thirsty.  They still need water, for life.  So they can't be silenced.  The second time they ask for water with significantly more drama, perhaps hoping that it will elicit a different response.  They are desperate, indicating that dying of dehydration in the desert is worse than slavery in Egypt.  

Moses, again, mishears them.  He turns to God, but not to advocate for the people, to advocate for himself!  He prays, crying out that he doesn't know how to handle the people and they're so angry with him he is afraid for his life.  #MissingThePoint  The story says that God does NOT miss the point though, and responds with a way to provide water.  Moses does as he's told, and the people get water.  However, the narrative ends with Moses naming the place “Quarreling” and “Testing” as his interpretation of how the people behaved.  

According to Deuteronomy, the entire story of the people wandering in the desert is said to be so that they can learn to depend on God, and not on their own capacities. Deuteronomy, in fact, spends a lot of time worrying that once the people enter the land and have milk and honey in abundance they will think this is because of their hard work, rather than God's good grace.  Thus, the Exodus narratives are meant to teach that God can be depended on.

This is both an imperative lesson for all people of faith, and a dangerous one.  God can be depended on, this I believe.  Creation is abundant, and there is enough food, water, shelter, and love for everyone. However, I haven't found human societies to be as dependable as God, and while there is enough in the world, there is not enough if it is hoarded, or wasted.  Abundant clean water is being destroyed by fracking, sources of it are drying up with global climate change, and various companies are seeking to glean profit from limiting people's water access except through their sales.  Analysis I've read about the humanitarian crisis in Syria that has created a refugee crisis around the world suggests that it started with years of drought that kept people from being able to grow crops and sustain themselves. Furthermore, our sisters, brothers, and siblings in Puerto Rico and other Caribbean islands don't have clean water, and that reality is life threatening.  

God created enough, but that doesn't mean people have access to enough. Simply claiming that God will take care of the vulnerable and thirsty doesn't do them any good if the mechanisms of human society prevent them from having access to life giving water.  

And yet God created enough, and works with us and through us to connect resources to people in need.  In this church we seek to connect food, water, coffee, soap, toilet paper, diapers, hygiene products, home furnishings, flood buckets, hygiene kits, beauty, music, and knowledge to those who need them!  (To name a few.)  We are part of the work of redistributing so that God's abundance can be known.  We are seeking to live out the instructions in Philippians 2.

Did any of the computer geeks notice that the Philippians text is basically written in if/then code?  Just me?  That's OK.  IF there is any encouragement in Christ (implication here seems to be that anyone hearing this would say “YES!  Of course there is), IF there is any consolation in love (almost everyone would agree with this), IF there is any sharing in the Spirit, IF you have experienced any compassion and sympathy (so most people by this time are yearning to say yes), THEN “make my joy complete.”  OK, how?  

With connection.  Use your lives to take care of each other.  Let go of ambition that is only about you and work towards helping others.  Be together in love.  Actually, it says a lot more, but I think the church and the world both abuse the idea of “unity” as a means of controlling the vulnerable: that is they claim that those who call for justice for all are disturbing the peace and should be silenced in the name of unity.  This makes me squirm and I want to to skip over the “same mind, same love” part.  However, I think more nuance is called for!  (#whenindoubtmorenuance)

In an article I read this week on NPR, they talked about the form of Russian influence on US public opinion saying, “Moscow's intelligence agencies not only used secret cyberattacks to steal and leak information, as the U.S. intelligence community concluded. The Russians also openly bought ads on Facebook aimed at amplifying the most controversial issues in American political life — including abortion, guns and LGBT issues — and used fake accounts to spread disinformation and even organize real-life rallies.”1

While I have many strong opinions, most certainly including on the issues that Russia is trying to use our society, I'm really struck by this story.  Another country thinks that the best way to destabilize our society and gain influence is by keeping us fighting with each other. It is likely a great strategy, it leads to deep divisions, and could even lead to the destruction of our country.  When issues divide us, we can end up not seeing or hearing each other as people at all!  So, while I don't much like the instruction to be of the “same mind” (ok, fine, I still hate it), I think perhaps it needs to be taken very seriously.  We must work to humanize each other, even across differences.

To return to the stories, God created and created with abundance.  When we trust in each other and are trustworthy for each other, there is enough.  On this World Communion Sunday, where we are reminded that God's table extends around our globe, may we savor the abundance of creation and seek to be people of trust in that “enough-ness.” Amen

1 Philip Ewing “As Scrutiny Of Social Networks Grows, Influence Attacks Continue In Real Time” published September 28, 2017 at 5:01AM ET http://www.npr.org/2017/09/28/554024047/as-scrutiny-of-social-networks-grows-influence-attacks-continue-in-real-time

Rev. Sara E. Baron

First United Methodist Church of Schenectady

603 State St. Schenectady, NY 12305

Pronouns: she/her/hers

http://fumcschenectady.org/ https://www.facebook.com/FUMCSchenectady

October 1, 2017

[thevividgreenmoss]

exactly ! like that’s the issue I had with it like I didn’t disagree with anything that was said about Gertrude’s character and the merits thereof or w/e (and everything that OP said in the second paragraph added in the reblog was on 100) but like the post as a whole had this particular type of framing that you see pretty often that never sits well with me...like it’s projecting a lot of stuff onto this image of someone who identifies with / is intrigued by Ophelia but hates Gertrude - which is a position I’ve literally never seen anyone take on here which obviously doesn’t mean that that viewpoint doesn’t exist, but it isn’t exactly endemic - and then psychoanalyzing this made up person based on the thoughts you’ve projected onto them in the first place ? Like it’s one thing to point out how ingrained biases/cultural values etc might lead people to more easily accept and embrace Ophelia, and how the same kinds of factors may contribute to Gertrude maybe not receiving a level of nuanced appreciation/attention/affection as an incredibly complex and resonant character herself, but it’s another to essentially make the case people’s affinity for one character coexists with and is actually inextricably tied to their distaste for another and is tied into their misguided perception of both characters and also of women & femininity & their own selves? Like pointing out that in certain ways people more easily identify with a conventionally attractive young woman that’s clearly and unambiguously a victim while they might not have the same level of concern and compassion or even just respect for an “old shifty morally grey woman that no one really likes” is a fair point of discussion - although like there’s an abundance of interest and appreciation of such women on this site so I really don’t get how that particular point can be made as part of an explanation of “the problem with tumblr” as tied to why tumblr hates Gertrude and therefore doesn’t view gender properly, when that literally is not a problem with tumblr so like it can’t exactly be a basis for the claims that follow from that point imo. Same with critiquing romanticization of “ultra white ultra feminized self destruction”, like by all means go for it but like it isn’t clear how that ties into preference of Ophelia vs Gertrude either like I don’t think either of them were strictly self-destructive since (as with all of the characters) they were to varying degrees trapped by and nudged along by circumstances outside of their control to the point that even Ophelia’s suicide arguably shouldn’t be seen (at least not exclusively) as an active act of self-destruction, and they’re both conventionally feminine in terms of appearance and role in society and like they’re both white so that’s irrelevant to any broader comparative point regarding the two characters and people’s reactions to them so like why bring that up at all...like it’s rhetorically dishonest to bring that up exclusively in association with one side of this supposed dichotomy imo like intentionally or unintentionally it just serves to obscure any meaningful or fair-minded consideration of the matter at hand by just like arbitrarily waving this red flag of Association with the Problematic Category of Whiteness over the position that’s being critiqued. 

Idk like there’s this whole style of discussion that we see where instead of criticizing & dissecting culture/media + people’s reception to it through a moral/political/aesthetic framework, you start out by making a claim or stating an opinion on the work in question and then extrapolating that out to show how that particular opinion leads to the morally/politically/aesthetically Correct position and alternate viewpoints fundamentally indicate an inability to arrive at that same Correct position and in fact lead you down this very particular flawed line of thinking. Which idk it’s a really condescending narrow-sighted unproductive way to approach things and like is usually based on things like drawing false distinctions and like asserting shit like people that are drawn to Ophelia tend to be repulsed by Gertrude and not only that but the reasons why they’re drawn to Ophelia are necessarily connected to the reasons why they don’t fuck with Gertrude and the presence of those factors (and again like I don’t think that any of the provided evidence ostensibly supporting the fact that those factors are even present within let alone malignantly influencing the attitudes of tumblr dot com’s Ophelia stan community are at all compelling), is evidence that this category of people have a fucked up attitude towards the way they see and relate to and even personally exist as women which like I’m not at all saying is what OP’s intention was, but like untangling their argument and following even it’s immediate implications through leads you in that exact direction.

Has anyone here actually seen a post hating Gertrude or even implying that she isn't an interesting/complex/relevant character like idgi...