#now I think about it when how long has marcille been dungeon diving with Laios and falin

[falimarcis]

We don’t talk enough about Marcille wearing elven clothes pre-canon. Falin would have died right then and there if she ever saw Marcille dressed like this

[ambrosiagourmet]

I've been thinking about Laios' succubus lately. Mulling it over a bit.

Because I've seen these pages brought up a fair bit, but almost entirely in the context of shipping (on all sides, really). And I really want to understand what they are doing for the story beyond that.

When I went back to reread the scene and section, a few things caught my interest: the way Laios responds to both forms of his succubus, the themes of the volume the chapter is found in, and the other events of the chapter itself.

So let's dive into those three things, and what I think they say about the succubus scene's purpose.

Laios is never fully frozen by the succubus

So. If you compare Marcille and Chilchuck's reactions...

to Laios':

-

There is a difference. Sure, the basics may look the same once it turns into Scylla Marcille, but even then, it functions differently.

Chilchuck and Marcille are completely frozen once they catch sight of their succubus. Izutsumi, as well, isn't able to look away, and completely freezes up once her 'mom' starts talking to her. As Chilchuck describes, "just looking at them makes you unable to move."

And yet, Scylla Marcille has to actively convince Laios to comply. He even looks away from her at one point!

Laios accepts this succubus, but he is never actually helpless to it in the same way. Taken in? Convinced? Sure, at least enough to let things happen that he probably should question more than he does. But magically compelled? Not really. Not the same way as everyone else is. So that's interesting. But let's move on for now.

2. Volume 9 is all about drive and desire

I don't often look at chapters within the context of the volume they are included in, but I think there's some really fun things to be found with that perspective in mind.

For one, volume 9 starts with an exploration of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:

And ends with a question of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:

It's also very concerned in general with questions of why people do what they do. Why they are in the dungeon, why they are with the people they are with, why they stay, what they fight for.

In addition to Laios, we see it with Marcille...

Izutsumi

Kabru

and Mithrun

Hell, we even get it for the demon!

It's certainly not the only volume concerned with desires and motives, but it is particularly focused on these ideas.

The succubus scene fits quite well into the ongoing question about desires, especially Laios' desires. It is even placed at an interesting spot within the volume. The volume is six chapters long, and the scene takes place at the start of the 4th chapter. It's almost smack-dab in the middle.

With all this in mind, it is interesting that, with both versions of the succubus Marcille, it's not totally clear which parts of her Laios is rejecting.

The first version of Marcille looks human, but Laios attacks when he identifies her as a monster. The second Marcille looks like a monster, but he seems to believe that she is the real (human)(ish) person that he knows. So is he rejecting the monster at first, and then accepting the person? Or is he rejecting humanity and only interested in the monstrous?

Something to consider as we look at the next point...

3. the rest of the chapter is a seduction, too

This is one of those things that might not be apparent on a first reading, but is crystal clear on a revisit. We see the succubus try and charm Laios over 7 pages, and then see the Winged Lion do the same thing for the next 19.

Much like the succubus, it offers the mingling of monsters and humans. Much like the succubus, it offers belonging.

(and this is the point where I absolutely must also link this post by fumifooms on the succubus, which has some great ideas on how the scene is informed by Laios' trauma and desire for acceptance!!!)

But, back to the point. The Winged Lion wants to feed on Laios just as much as the succubus did, and it uses similar strategies to try and make that happen. Though this chapter isn't really the turning point for the next Lord of the Dungeon (it is Marcille who will, eventually, become the Lion's next victim), it certainly behaves like it is.

Laios is convinced. The succubus gets its meal. By the end of the volume, the reader begins to understand how concerning his desires are. Together, it is all very good at building up that sense of dread and pending disaster, as we see exactly how and why Laios might just fall into the Lion's open arms and bring about the end of the world.

-

So that's the three things I noticed. But there's still something I want to touch on by looking at the way these observations overlap, and what they reveal, together.

As I said, by the end of the volume, you can feel the tension growing. Just as Kabru and Mithrun do, you look back for an answer to the questions that have been built, chapter by chapter: why is Laios here? Where will his loyalties fall? This chapter, and scene, seem to prove the inevitable truth: he will choose the monster, of course. He will choose the seductive, easy power of the Winged Lion.

But the details of what actually happens tell different story: one in which the Lion is wrong.

First, as a reminder - even in Scylla Marcille mode, the succubus never fully entrances Laios. It convinces him, but it doesn't have him completely under its thrall.

Similarly, in the dream, the Lion does convince Laios to embrace the world he is offering. But even within that dream, Laios continues to ask questions that will be vital to him later. It is because of those questions that Laios comes to a new understanding about Thistle.

And it's this realization that he cites later as part of his reason for refusing the Lion's offer.

He is thinking through things the entire time, just like he continues to question the succubus even after it turns into Scylla Marcille.

Laios also expresses an interesting reason for why he wants to see the future of this world. He's not just invested because it would mean people liking what he likes, or him getting to spend time with monsters. The thought that comes immediately before his acceptance is about what he wants for monsters and people.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this statement - "we're living beings that share the same world, but all we can do is keep killing each other" - can apply to the various humans races just as much as it does to humans and monsters. The thing he is thinking about here isn't just a matter of his personal daydreams. It's an idea that underpins every conflict in the story.

Laios caring about how people as well as monsters in this manner is something that the Lion gets wrong every time. Even at the end, he still frames Laios' desires entirely around hating people and loving monsters.

The Lion has heard him express an opinion about the future of the world! It happened right there in the dream, right in front of him! He just didn't take it seriously, and didn't view it through any lens other than "Laios likes monsters more".

He's convinced that he understands how to get to Laios. Maybe the Lion can't truly see everything, or maybe his vision into everyone's deepest desires has made it hard for him to realize how much choice still matters. That people can, and do, choose which desires to act on, and how to act on them.

Whatever the case, he's wrong about Laios, and the story shows us this over and over again.

After all, look at how the succubus interaction plays out:

A monster uses Marcille to appeal to Laios...

He realizes that something about the situation is wrong, and rejects her.

It changes strategies, and makes new offer: to turn him into a monster.

It also assures him that his friends are, or will be, taken care of.

He accepts. Or rather, allows the monster to have its way with him.

But Laios is not as helpless as he initially appears, and what the Lion thinks is a successful seduction also contains the seed of an idea that will allow Laios to later resist him.

We even get to see Izutsumi playing a similar role in both instances, as the one person fully able to take action in the face to the illusion.

The story lays out what is going happen, and then explicitly tells us that the demon and the succubus are thematically related.

The chapter performs a great sleight of hand here - everything about it seems to indicate that Laios is doomed give in to the option to have his deepest desires realized. But if you look closer, it also contains the evidence that he won't. There's a lot more going on for him.

Yes, he still falls for obvious tricks. He is still extremely into monsters, and he still doesn't feel like he fits in with other people. He may, deep down, crave to surrender to the monstrous - to let it absorb him. But he questions more than he seems to. He considers more than people realize. He cares so much more than anyone gives him credit for.

And I think this is part of why we see the succubus called back to so many times, especially with the wolf head addition to his Monster Form, which he specifically added due to his encounter with the Scylla Marcille.

This all stays with Laios. It doesn't just foreshadow the path of the story, it is fundamental to how and why he walks that path. It's not about him choosing monsters, and it's not about him choosing people. It's about how he considers both, and cares about both.

And it's about the forces that think they already know his answer. Mithrun and Kabru. The Winged Lion. The succubus.

It's about how they are wrong.

[fumifooms]

do you have any character analysis posts you're working on? i'm currently mulling Daya/Dia over in my head right now. In general, I'm thinking a lot about Kabru's team because they don't show up much in the manga and won't be in the show much longer as noticeable players, but have quite a bit of outside-the-manga content to comb through. Personally, I like the idea of Rin and Dia becoming friends with Marcille post-canon, but I want to know them better first. I know Rin pretty well already. 1/2

(for example, Rin/Dia/Marcille seem to like clothes, and i want to draw them clothes shopping.) And I ask this not to put all the work on you! I want to discuss these characters with somebody, and you're one of the only ones I can think of who enjoys doing in-depth dives into the side characters of Dungeon Meshi. You, summerboletes, shisurus, and ambrosiagourmet are some other blogs i can think of that made great meta posts. You can reply to this privately if you want! 2/2 (think about it. daya has a boyfriend and marries him post-canon. marcille loves romance and loves clothes. it'd be adorable if she helped daya find a wedding dress. like kabru introduces them and dia (god i'm so used to writing 'daya') mentions her wedding and marcille immediately pounces on her with eyes sparkling in excitement. i plan to write this fic one day)

This idea is so cute! I’ll also check out those other blogs you mentioned when I have the time to hehe~ I do latch onto minor characters easily but it doesn’t mean I have much to say about everyone. Dia (agreed btw, the situation with Daya vs Dia is confusing)… I do like her, but I feel like her Adventurer’s Bible profile sums it all up quite nicely and straightforwardly honestly. You’re right though her reaction to the treasure bugs was so cute and honestly surprising considering her appearance and demeanor, she does like pretty things and jewelry I could def see her going shopping. More content of her would definitely be fun, I’d read your fic!! I do love imagining how everyone’s relationships are like in Kabru’s party, the intricacies of it… I haven’t mulled it over enough though. I’ve been thinking of Mickbell more because of recent posts though, also Rin… If you’d like, the dunmeshi discord I’m in would be a good place to brainstorm about it I think! Hmu for an invite if you want

Summing up the posts I’m working on was long so here’s a cut out of mercy

I have 78 drafts on tumblr currently oh boy… The thing about my process is that I ramble easily but then I need to compile panels to illustrate the points and that’s real tedious… Character analysis wise - I’m most hyped about a Falin one on the topic of if she’s a people pleaser, how much does she care, what’s her way of thinking etc etc, also her differences with Laios because I hate seeing people seriously say they’re the same person. - Also a Cithis one that I just need to streamline at this point. I want to analyze her demeanor, poke at her psychology and analyze her relationships, she’s fascinating. - Oh I’m so stupid I almost forgot to mention the one I’ve been working on currently about Thistle, the age shenanigans but in an in-world way where yes it’s wonky and it means something. He hauntssss me I have so many thoughts on Thistle & Falin lately. Like, offtopic for the analysis but… Falin loves nature and Thistle is named after a flower… Imagine her post-canon coming across wild thistles and feeling a rush of fondness and she doesn’t know why… Thistles have thorns but they taste sweet… Peel of his thorns and eat him pls.

I have more Chilchuck & family thoughts coming, and more Toshiro & family, but these will have more of a casual brainstorm & speculating tone to them, I also just need to streamline these… Like I am obsessed about Toshiyuki and Chilchuck’s alcoholism I’m sorry

Beyond those the topics of the character analysis become more specific, like - How much social awareness does Laios have? Not none, not a lot, but the specifics can be blurry in ways I think are interesting, he was sensitive to people’s judgements in his hometown after all, and he does worry about others’ perception of him… He does know that buzzcut guy was taking advantage of him, etc etc. - There’s an extensive one I want to make on how the winged lion reflects abusive relationships, like how he targets all his ‘meals’'s specific weaknesses and draws out the worst in each of them. A lot of Dunmeshi is about unity and overcoming prejudices & differences & flaws and forming deep and long-lasting bonds despite it all, and amongst all of it it’s like… How flawed relationships with flawed people can still be made into somehing good and healthy that make the world brighter… Except the winged lion there to represent abusive relationships which you need to fucking DITCH, lol. - And on the topic of Dunmeshi & relationships I want to talk about it and queerness, especially in the queerplatonic sense of blurring lines, and Izutsumi + Laios’ relationship to touch should feature in those.

And my crown jewel but I’m soooo hyped about the Marcille & Chilchuck’s arcs one I’m working on it’s gonna go over so much stuff I’m obsessed about, like the importance of books in Marcille’s life, what the succubi reveal about the characters in what ways, the theme that’s so prevalent in Dunmeshi of idealization, Marcille’s imagery as a dungeon lord, a shepherd a general a princess a monster a damsel a woman in mourning…

But that’s enough for heavy ones, side characters wise: doing quick posts like for the gold-stripper characters has been great, but those usually come to me on the same day that I post them. I might make some analysis posts on say Mickbell or Holm or Otta, but I don’t have the thread I want to follow yet. Flamela’s been on my brain so much too…

Mostly though there’s just a lot that I wouldn’t write analysis for, but that I’d love to explore in fanfics! For example, the hienbeni I want to write the most rn is about the surges of anger that Benichidori gets, impulsive and stressed out. I haven’t made a post on my Izutsumi & Benichidori brotp and all the interesting parallels I think I have, but I’ve written a fic on it! Same about Chilchuck’s daughters and their relationship with his alcoholism, etc. I explored the guilt and confliction he may feel about his wife in my fic Enough as well, etc etc. You can see my fics here! For Kabru’s party lately mickrin has been having a chokehold on my brain, I’d love love love to explore Rin’s and Mickbell’s characters and issues through fics for them. As I think you might have figured, I love to explore characters through the lenses of relationships they have with others (Cithis & Mithrun and Pattadol, Thistle and Falin, etc), and that’s why for example I love to make posts that pitch ship ideas, I think specific dynamics can really have a lot to say about either characters. Oh another one’s toshimari, I want to make a fic about them and their feelings of being foreigners and not being able to integrate well to The Island, through the plot of them going to a restaurant as coworkers and the food they eat there~

These are only the ones I have at the top of my head though………. Someone help me Hopefully this post wasn’t boring lol, but yeah those are my wips rn. Need to make posts on toshimari, kabushuro, cithaios, cittadela and ships like that I think have interesting potential too. Many of these I’ve mentioned here I’ve had in my drafts for like 6 months btw gdvd 😭

[angstandhappiness]

Neat

We don’t talk enough about Marcille wearing elven clothes pre-canon. Falin would have died right then and there if she ever saw Marcille dressed like this