#not wanting to erase armand's role in it but i don't think i would like it if he was the only reason lestat did what he did

[amaamadeo]

i'm not sure how they'll go about it but i wish they kept lestat's agency in deciding to partake at the trial and not save claudia

i think it would so interesting to explore lestat's guilt and regret mixed with rage and sadness, and not just blame it all on another character

[saintundying]

IIRC you also think DM happened in the past. Do you have a theory as to why Daniel's memory's were erased?

Are you ready for something insane???

I think it has to do with Marius de Romanus.

The epicenter of Armand is Marius. He is in every crack and corner of how Armand exists. His shadow falls over the dynamic of Louis and Armand in the show and Armand and Daniel in the QotD chapter. In the book, once Armand realizes Daniel truly loves him in Pompeii, what does he do? He resorts himself back into the role he knows, except he casts Daniel as Amadeo and himself as Marius. Daniel becomes fully dependent on Armand because isn't that what love is? Armand understands his love properly right when Daniel is dying so he turns him. Armand can't stomach turning Daniel (sounds like s2 finale babes) and Daniel loses his mind and ends up isolated in Marius' care.

1940s AMC Armand believes Marius dead. Does 2022 Armand? Timelines can change easily. He spent time with Lestat for the trial, it could have been revealed. Lestat would hold it over his head for making him do this. Or maybe, reveal it through a relationship with Daniel.

Armand makes sure the SF edit of memories allows him to flaunt he saved Daniel's life. This is important to him. Except, he didn't save Daniel's life at all in that apartment. Why is it important to Armand that Daniel (and Louis) believe this? Why is it important Armand can hold onto that? I think he really believes he saves Daniel's life, just not in SF.

In the books, Bianca, Daniel, Benji, Sybelle all become objects Marius takes from Armand. So if Marius did come to check up on Armand unseen (funnily enough he does so in Paris and it's in Paris that Daniel's memories start to form a coherent timeline again) and finds him in a relationship with a human boy? Oh no, Armand is Marius'.

Oh Amadeo, I've come to you again. You have a human companion? He is addicted to you, you hurt him, give him the Gift! Turn him or free him! You cannot love properly because that is your nature. Let me take care of this one for you, Amadeo.

There is a glaring neon sign stating the love has already happened because Armand turns Daniel in the show. He has no other reason to do so. Armand doesn't punish this way. Okay so past relationship, but Armand doesn't want Daniel in Dubai, except he is and he allows it. Why? The entire thing reeks of "I don't want this interview happening. I don't want you here, but I am weak and selfish and I wanted to see you again. I want you to remember me."

I think he believes he saved Daniel from a life of damnation and Armand by allowing Marius (or himself, but I don't think he is that strong in the Mind Gift) to remove the memories of their time. I free you from me and you can go onto live a life. I won't let you be cursed.

So yea, Marius. Show wise look at who is about to get the scoop on Armand and Marius through Lestat. You set up Armand as this false villain, Daniel starts realizing there is more memories missing, anger at Armand for taking more. Look at what you did to Nicki, look at what you did to Claudia and Louis, look at what you did to me. Drop the twist that Armand truly thought he was saving Daniel, start Armand's backstory/redemption arc, and you build them reuniting.

Devil's minion break up and reunite in the books, but that is never shown beyond a few lines. No way, this show wouldn't want a deep exploration of a human/vampire relationship. They're dramatists. Rolin Jones and co. have such a sandbox to play in with these two during the time Anne Rice doesn't write for them and that's why I think their timeline appears all over the place.

OH! Daniel sits by Marius' portrait in the dining room every time by the way. Also, crazy first name drop of a major character in a line from the episode titled "...after the phantoms of your former self" where only Armand is present in the scene.

Yea, I bet you never heard of him

[cbrownjc]

Hey :) just saw your post with your speculation about how much Eric/Daniel will be in S3. And while this isn't a definitive answer or anything, Rolin did address the question of whether or not Daniel would still play a part in the story post-s2 in this interview for the A.V. Club: https://www.avclub.com/rolin-jones-interview-with-the-vampire-season-2-finale-1851566667

I kinda feel like this means we'll see him more than just in a couple of scenes here and there, even in S3 (though he didn't specifically say "in season 3". But I feel like "still" implies this?)

Only it's difficult to judge because any present-day storyline they do with him is a big question mark since they seem to have departed from books (where he only gets turned shortly before the concert and does not part from Armand). What Armand is up to in the present-day is also a question mark imo. At least until the story converges at the concert.

I mean, I'll be real I'm also just trying to convince myself he'll be in it more because I'll miss him otherwise 🥲

Hi!

So, first I want to say that I think the two major pieces of casting that still need to be done are obviously Gabrielle and Marius. And I've long speculated that Marius is already playing a huge part in Daniel's story because I really do believe that Marius was the one to erase Daniel's memories of his past relationship with Armand.

Yes, Marius plays an important role in Lestat's life, but he plays an even bigger one in Armand and Daniel's as well, especially going by the books. In the books, Daniel lived with Marius for almost 30 years -- first healing from his mental issues, and then as companions -- before getting back together with Armand during the Prince Lestat era. All that, plus given what Rolin Jones already said about Raglan James, I don't think Justin Kirk is secretly playing Marius. So Marius still needs to be cast, and I very much expect him to be deeply involved in Armand and Daniel's storyline, going forward.

I just don't see that happening much in Season 3, however.

Because Season 3 is Lestat's story and focus, primarily. Just like Season 1 and Season 2 were mainly focused on Louis.

There is really only one episode in those two seasons where you can say Daniel was focused on -- outside of just interviewing Louis -- and that was episode 2x05. And even then, Louis factored heavily in that episode as well.

Armand and Marius play major roles in Lestat's story. Daniel doesn't. So if Daniel has any type of major storyline in Season 3, it will have to be with those two characters, IMO; as well as the Talamasca, since they were the ones to publish Daniel's book in the first place, and Rolin already said they and Raglan James will play an even bigger role in the show than they did in the books.

But without an episode count yet, I just can't see it being a huge focus. Mostly because characters like Marius still need to be fully set up and established. Also, I already think Armand is being set up to be a false Big Bad in Season 3 (since he's pretty much a villain in The Vampire Lestat), so I think whatever of Armand's POV that we get in Season 3, in the present day, will be very limited too, IMO, if we get it like we did in episode 2x03.

And yet, IMO, the only way we are looking at getting another episode like 2x05 in Season 3 is if it's told from Armand's POV. Because, again, Armand actually ties into Lestat's story, both in the past and in the present. And I think for sure that whatever Armand is up to in the present will have something to do with Daniel, as well as whatever else might be going on in the setup for Akasha rising.

Heck, if my theory is right that Marius was the one to wipe Daniel's memories of his and Armand's past relationship, Armand and Marius might have a present-day scene together, likely discussing Daniel (along with what Lestat is doing).

And yes, while Eric might still be in the top five for the call sheet going forward, that really doesn't say much IMO without knowing the Season 3 episode count. I mean, I'm sure Sam Reid was top 5 on the call sheet in Season 2, but if you look at his screen time in Episodes 2x01 and 2x02, it really wasn't much. And we didn't see him at all in episode 2x05, only heard his voice. And he didn't appear in episode 2x06 until the end.

I thought they found a way to work Lestat into the story of Season 2 very well, expanding on things from the book. But he still wasn't in the first few episodes very much.

And Daniel is even more different because he's not mentioned or referenced in The Vampire Lestat book at all.

So wrt Daniel in the present day, I'm tempering my expectations. Because yes, whatever is going on with Eric's Daniel in the present day is completely off-book. But, with every other facet of the story, the show has very much been on-book, in a rather strict way. Lestat's story is the main story of The Vampire Lestat and therefore will be for Season 3 IMO. And I think, whatever happens with Daniel in the present day is going to have to tie into that story. And that can't really happen via Daniel directly.

Louis' story is already being set up to tie into Lestat's present-day storyline directly, with his challenging all the vampires in the world to come for him if they dare. One of the reasons Lestat even became a rock star in the first place was to try and protect Louis by drawing attention to himself in an even bigger way than Louis' memoir drew attention to Louis.

But there are only two ways I see Daniel's story drawing directly to Lestat, and those are not in a way that directly has to do with Daniel. Because Lestat doesn't even know Daniel, has never met him before or interacted with him. (No I don't think they changed that from the book.)

So it's only through Armand, possibly Marius, and the Talamasca that Daniel ties into the larger story of what's going to be going on with Lestat in the present day. (Maybe a bit of Louis too, but the vampires we heard talking at the end didn't seem to be threatening Daniel, only Louis. Curious.) And, again, without an episode count yet, I just don't know how much time that focus can really get, especially when you have to set up Marius as a character; as well as probably having to set up the Talamasca even more as well; as well as maybe not revealing too soon what Armand is up to in the present day to keep his motives as mystery and have non-book readers wondering if Armand is the Big Bad villain they think he is or not.

And having to do all of this, plus laying preparation for adapting Queen of the Damned next. The book where Daniel actually does get a lot of focus.

And this also lines up with what Assad let slip about Season 4 being when we would see Armand's backstory. (Which is when QotD would start being adapted if TVL isn't split into 2 seasons like IWTV was).

And Rolin Jones flat out said people need to stop jumping ahead because Devil's Minion was "3 books ahead" of where they were now in adapting (which at the time was the 2nd half of the IWTV book), and to "slow down" about it.

So for now, I'm going to listen to RJ and just "slow down" about this.

So, in doing so, while I think we'll see Daniel in the present day in Season 3, I still don't think we'll see him much. And I think when we do, one of the episodes we'll get will probably be a stand-alone episode in the vein of episode 2x05 that focuses on what happened in the past. (Which I think will be an episode that focuses on why Daniel once woke up in a parking lot in Milwaukee not knowing how he got there). And I think for sure he'll be in the Season 3 finale. But other than that? 🤷🏾‍♀️ Again, I'm slowing down and tempering my expectations. Especially if we only get another 7-8 episode count again.

Because right now, for Season 3, Lestat's story is the main focus. Not Daniel, not Armand, and not Devil's Minion. And Daniel's character can only tie into Lestat's story via other people, which is rather limiting but can't be helped.

[licncourt]

begin again COOKED as a post-qotd fix-it (fave fic! <3) but i need to know your thoughts on prince lestat/how you would re-do it in the correct way. to this day i still think LESTAT becoming prince monarch of all the vampires is one of the craziest decisions made during the novels. to me lestat is a prince in the same way that jack skellington was king of halloween (that includes the running away to cause delusional hijinks that ultimately jeapordize everyone)

Aaahhh thank you!! That fic is my child that I birthed so I appreciate it more than you know! It's actually BA's one year finished-iversary next week, my baby's all grown up.

I've talked about that before actually in this post about how I would rewrite the whole series, but I can expand a little here!

Firstly, this could've been two books instead of three. There was nothing going on in there that required three entire novels

Things that have to go entirely: aliens, test tube clone baby Viktor, Atlantis. Sorry, not salvageable

I think rather than the Amel thing, it would have been cool if the sacred core had started corrupting Lestat and altering his behavior as host, maybe changing him gradually into a animalistic, violent folklore-like vampire, making him slowly lose his mind like Mekare, or erasing his sense of self to become a blank host. Then it's a race against the clock and vampire magical biology to save him. This could be the first PL book

Ideally, I think this book should be narrated by Louis and focus a lot on his growth as a character as he finishes his personal. It would bring some happy ending closure to the IWTV version of him without being a jarring change. I also think having his POV for the best of his and Lestat's relationship would be a nice full circle moment from seeing him describe their worst. The idea of Lestat losing himself to the core and them potentially coming together too late would add good drama as well. Maybe this is Louis' follow-up memoir describing how they fixed things

The Rhoshamandes conflict can stay for the second PL and final VC book, but I think it could've been less boring if the drama between him and Lestat had been better fleshed out. They have a lot of similarities that weren't used to their full advantage. It would really highlight Lestat's growth to have him defeat what he could've become

When Lestat reunites with Louis, they would actually have some long, hard conversations about their past, ones that continue throughout the PL trilogy

Hopefully an explanation for why Lestat has made this 180 is included, even if it's just the crushing realization of his own loneliness and longing reaching critical mass after twenty years of who the fuck knows what

The cast is pared down to the strongest written and most interesting characters so the story isn't spread so thin, probably Lestat, Louis, Armand, Gabrielle, Marius, Pandora, and maybe a small handful of new characters with significance in the story. I think Seth, Fareed, Sevraine had the most potential to be good additions to the primary roster if she wanted to add on

Cool characters from the original like trilogy like Maharet and Khayman are expanded on rather than killed offscreen to make room for more Anne Rice NPCs. If we're going to kill someone from the trilogy, please God let it be David Talbot

This goes without saying I think, especially from me, but Louis would be restored to his former glory as a true main character alongside Lestat instead of relegated to lobotomized housewife. There was so much potential for him in an active consort role. We also don't get to see how he got to such a peaceful place at the end of PL, so I would like to see him work through some stuff on the page

I would either cut the Rhoshamandes/Benedict storyline because of how redundant it is with how it mirrors the Marius/Armand dynamic or do something to differentiate it as its own relationship. At the very least, maybe the similarity could be highlighted to become a character beat for Armand

As far as Armand in general, I would make him a much more prominent player. I think he's a great fit for a court setting and could create a lot of intrigue as well as adding coolness factor. I'm always torn about whether I like the reveal of his romantic feelings for Lestat, but in the interest of keeping SOME things intact, I would just play it differently. Primarily, I think he becomes way too agreeable (similar to Louis) in how he submits to and idolizes Lestat, so I would love to see him come into more conflict with Lestat in spite of those feelings. Maybe we can see him make some peace with their history and let go of that intense emotion for something healthier

If we're going to keep the sex injections (IVs, whatever), I think we should do more with it than have Lestat prematurely ejaculate into a random woman. I think there's potential for a very interesting new dynamic with Louis and Lestat. It would be cathartic and maybe an interesting part of their healing process and of becoming a real couple for the first time

That's what I can think of for now, but I might update later!

[danlous]

This thread is getting too long but i find that quote by Jacob really interesting! When i read it for the first time i thought he referred more to Louis performing in their societal roles and familial dynamic, deferring to Lestat like he used to do with other white men, but i can see it also referring to their sexual dynamics. I think it's again because of them both growing up in highly patriarchal and heteronormative society and not having a reference to how same-sex relationships could be different, so they end up performing those roles even in their supposed freedom. I think there is a clear implication in the show Louis often acts submissive in his relationships with both Lestat and Armand, but i agree it's not necessarily what he would want and act like if he felt he was fully free and didn't have to perform to anyone.

I'm sorry that you've had to experience harassment that's really shitty. I think lots of people, black people in particular are very sensitive to how black characters are depicted because there is such a strong tendency in almost every fandom to erase black characters' (both male and female) softness, vulnerability and feminity. It's not necessarily just the extreme hypersexual aggressive black man stereotype, but also more subtle like 'i just can't see [black character] bottoming because it doesn't feel right to me'. This happens with literally every fictional interracial couple. In iwtv fandom i've noticed the same fans who dislike feminizing or 'breeding' Louis often don't have any issue with doing that with Lestat, which i think is pretty telling. This isn't targeted at you guys because i don't know you or have any idea what you like, but some fans act like that, so many fans of color are suspicious if someone says they don't like a black character depicted as feminine or submissive (those two are not the same thing obv). Feminizing gay men is something that happens to white and sometimes asian men, but rarely to black men, so i think fans don't find it as problematic but rather transgressive. I agree that reducing a gay man (or any person for that matter) just to mother and wife isn't a good thing though

I've made in ill-advised decision to read or at least skim through every fic on the iwtv (2022) tag on ao3. Will report back when i'm eventually finished