#not bc he thinks theyre morally wrong but bc they took his life away from him

[jetaloen]

another quick fnv thing

[relaxxattack]

on the torture thing i know it was a while ago but. i feel like downplaying the whole torture thing that happens in dsmp is so. hm. people will be like "think about all the pain c!whoever is going through!" but. you are defending torture. like c!tommy literally had a whole turnaround bc with c!techno he would torture ppl (also i wanna remind that c!connor got tortured canonically- he forgave c!tommy but he is still traumatized from it iirc. its more cemented in canon than c!fundys torture is, where the latter seems to be more that the yelling is canon but the torture was exaggeration and had no bearing on the plot, just one of the few times where a cc is messing around w their friends in a semi canon way) and as such tommy like. grew out of torturing ppl and Doesnt Want That To Happen Ever. tommy torturing others was resolved and he decided not to do so because its immoral.

and then theres the other three torturers. c!sam, c!quackity, and c!dream. obviously c!dream is just completely in the wrong. theres no debate to be had there. c!sam was completely in the wrong as well, also no debate, he cut off his (at the time i think freshly exes iirc?) boyfriend's arm and tortured him and took his first life over worthless things- yes while spiraling but mental health deteriorating is a reason, not an excuse. spiraling does not justify irrational torture of a loved one. people who gloss over this moment, or hell, even praise c!sam for it are.. uncomfortable to be around at best. especially if excessive (and there are people who praise him for it and not in a "c!sam is an interesting and complex character" way but in a "he was in the right" and even girlboss comments kind of. are icky here. [also not to bring race but hm as a poc maybe the fandom could stand not to romanticize the torture of a poc by a character played by a white man. i dont blame cc!sam, not at all, and i think it fits in the story and is not something to criticize the creator for. but please god fandom be normal towards c!ponk. treat him as a person who was hurt by c!sam not just someome c!sam is still in love with after torturing and killing and amputating him. please. hes a person outside of that relationship.])

and then.. c!quackity. even more complicated than c!sam, really. but i still think its immoral to torture a prisoner who cant fight back, abuser or not. i genuinely think dream deserves to die over getting tortured, or at least just. left alone in prison. at most wait a while and then maybe make attempts at getting through to him and if they dont work let him be. but torture is immoral regardless of who you're doing it to and id argue that saying its okay takes away c!dream's humanity. c!dream is a terrible and disgusting person but to treat him as less than human (and i dont mean from like. a design point. nonhuman dreams fuck i mean this in a morality sense) feels.. off to me? like as an abuse victim treating an abuser as just some toy to fuck up is,, idk. it feels off. like im sorry to break it to the fandom but terrible people are still people and treating them as less than people because theyre terrible just doesnt work. it takes away how serious it is that people hurt each other and that the pain will stay. people die, killing c!dream, if anything, actively acknowledges that hes a person who can die like everyone else. torturing him does not. i dont care as much about like girlboss or w/e statements w c!quackity bc yeah hes doing somethin about an abuser but its a terrible solution and c!quackity is an immoral person for doing it, understandable motives or not. c!quackity is more sympathetic than c!sam and c!dream (and while not currently more sympathetic than c!tommy, their reasons for torture do differ and id say that c!quackity has a more sympathetic reason than c!tommy did) but hes still wrong for doing this.

like. idk. dsmp fandom learn how to realize that just because source is full of gray morality doesnt mean that you should start genuinely defending immoral actions just because they arent equal to real life. theres a difference between how dsmp government and pandoras vault just cannot be compared to irl government and prison because they dont function the same and how, in the roleplay, the fictional torture is like irl torture whether you like it or not. the way that the characters' mental illnesses and deteriorating mental health mirrors real life and the way that the abuse c!tommy and others go through mirrors real life is the way that the torture that characters who are canonically effected by it mirrors real life.

of course i could just be more pissy than i need to be but like. i also do not think its Super Serious. i just think that while people can joke around maybe theres some stuff that just shouldnt be treated as Not Serious and Definitely Justifiable just because its fiction. have fun if you want, make girlboss jokes and continue to enjoy the characters because theyre written amazingly and be lighthearted about it if you dont want to be super serious. no one can or will stop you. just. yknow. make sure you arent genuinely defending something horrible. dont be like the people who defend how c!tommy was and is treated just because he fucks up. c!tommy has done some fucked up shit but he doesnt deserve to be treated as less than human and that spreads to everyone in the story. sorry for the super big ramble i just think about this a lot idk - (the dsmp fandom is scary so im not revealing myself just yet. so like idk. im just gonna be 🎭🎪 anon for now)

anon you are so smart i really don’t have anything to add 

[nightfayre]

hi im the anon ! i dont remember what i said >

and I’m alarmed by the fandom mentality. Maybe HT means good - but how would we know? we don’t have access to his thoughts - but we must judge his actions, and his actions are for the least very troubling. It’s always abt coercing Mo and not respecting his boundaries. I see the trope “when she says no, she means yes” here and once again, the fact the fandom swallows it uncritically (bc HT is a poor, hot tortured boy) is alarming. Forcing Mo to wear his gift stinks of “this is my possession, don’t mess wt him” 2/5

Maybe im pessimistic n its actually to protect him by distance, but once again he totally disregards Mo’s will. What if he doesnt want to be protected ? what if he doesnt want to be an object to be pass around between self-entitled psychos ? The first step to protect and help someone is by listening to them. I hope Mo will react strongly and will tell HT that by saying this, he’s no different from She Li. And i hope that would provoke HT to self-reflect a lot - smth he lacks tremendously. 3/5

That being said i love HT and tianshan! And what i love is how realistic and flawed they are. Theyre both hyper violent, distrustful, and severly lacking in communication skills. Im thrilled to see how theyre going to evolve -for the better or the worse, both is good for me. But i’m very disappointed by the fandom reaction like “ooh how cute hes possessive it means love!” or “actually its not bad doing HT doing that bc his intentions are good”. 4/5

And I will be vry, vry disappointed if OX decides to follow this trend and to not show how this kind of actions is detrimental to their reliationship and use the tired and dangerous trope of “being violent means that you care”. I trust them to be more nuanced than that bc until now they are great at drawing grey relationship. So yea i hope next chapter, tianshan plunges (before being better). Anw sry for the rant, and plz continue the good work !! 5/5

phew. there’s a lot to unpack here – but I agree wholeheartedly with you. since this post is already kinda long, I will put my answer/explanation under the cut!

the parts that I bolded in your asks are what I intend to focus on in this answer. strap in, because this is going to be a long one. 

before anything, let me put a disclaimer: I love He Tian. I love Guan Shan. I love Old Xian. I love tianshan, and I love where they are headed in the manhua. does that mean I also love where tianshan are right now? no, it doesn’t. and I’m here to explain why I look forward to their potential rather than their current relationship’s dynamics.  

one of the hardest parts about being in a fandom is being able to separate fiction, reality, and morality. this is especially hard when a fandom is as old and endearing as 19 Days, and when you fall in love with & are rooting for all the characters. furthermore, 19 Days is not a tragedy. of course, when Jian Yi disappears, it will be tragic. but otherwise the majority of the manhua is a comical, romantic slice-of-life plot. as such, it’s easier for what would usually be seen as blaring issues/problems in tragedies to be disregarded for comedy or, in some cases, romance in a comedic, romantic slice-of-life. 

this is exactly the case with tianshan. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: He Tian’s current relationship with Guan Shan is not healthy. he doesn’t listen to Guan Shan. he doesn’t respect his personal space. he doesn’t know where to draw the line. he doesn’t know how to properly communicate with him, and thus resorts to violence or threats. tianshan just have a problem with communication. and, sure, maybe it can be chalked up to the fact that they’re young and stressed and don’t know any better. but that excuse is almost as bad as the “boys will be boys” excuse, and that doesn’t make it any better nor does it justify their actions. 

He Tian’s idea of relationships is so twisted, and as I talked about in a previous answer, it can probably be stemmed back to his trauma with the puppy Cheng took away from him. I won’t get too deep into that since I explained it in detail in that answer, but keep this in mind nonetheless: He Tian grew up in a family of violence, distance, miscommunication, and lies. it’s all he’s ever known, and that’s what he’s applying to his relationship with Guan Shan. does that make it right? no, absolutely not. but he’s learning. 

when Guan Shan had a panic attack at the restaurant, He Tian learned that people aren’t robots/pawns to use at his disposal and rather have their own strong emotions/backgrounds that shape them. thus, he brought Guan Shan home without a word. when he had his night terror and woke up to Guan Shan holding his hands, He Tian realized that there are parts of Guan Shan he still doesn’t know and, potentially, an aspect of their relationship that they’ve only started to uncover. thus, he thanked him without preamble and with a bowed head. 

what I’m trying to say is that He Tian does have good intentions at times, but not always. he’s learning as he goes, because god knows he didn’t have a family to teach him how healthy relationships should be. there probably is a part of He Tian that only wants to protect Guan Shan against She Li, but he certainly doesn’t show it in the right way. he acts possessive because he knows that if he doesn’t, he’ll lose what he loves (*insert flashback to the puppy*). again, does that make it right? hell no. jealousy and possessiveness are not cute and are entirely unhealthy in a relationship. the fandom should view them as such, but should also keep an open mind when considering He Tian’s background. 

and honestly, the reason why I’m focusing so much on He Tian right now rather than Guan Shan is because if it were up to Guan Shan, he would’ve dropped He Tian within the first few days (maybe even hours) of meeting him. but because of He Tian’s persistence, Guan Shan has no choice but to be involved with him and retaliate when He Tian verbally/physically/emotionally attacks him. nonetheless, Guan Shan has tried to walk away from He Tian on multiple occasions when He Tian’s teasing became too much, and on those occasions, He Tian has given in. (ex. I can’t find the exact chapter, but there is a chapter in which Guan Shan refuses to use He Tian’s fork to eat He Tian’s leftovers, and he gets up and says, “I’m going home,” to which He Tian replies, “Fine, fine, I’ll buy you new food.”)

so yes – tianshan certainly have flaws. He Tian holds too much power, and Guan Shan can’t catch a break. the fandom romanticizes their interactions, but if you take a moment to think realistically and recognize that character flaws are essentially bad but also critical for character development, then there is an even balance in the readers’ relationship with the manhua. don’t support He Tian’s violent interactions with Guan Shan and claim “omg He Tian loves Guan Shan sooooo much when he forces Guan Shan to do XYZ,” but rather support the fact that he hasn’t physically manhandled/harmed Guan Shan in many chapters. support and celebrate He Tian’s development, not his flaws. 

and as for what you said about Guan Shan telling He Tian that he’s “no better than She Li”? while I don’t think He Tian is truly as bad as She Li, I actually think that would be a painful, great, and pivotal moment in their relationship. after all, the most consequential scene in tianshan’s relationship thus far has been the kiss. at that moment, Guan Shan had told He Tian outright that he disgusted him and to leave him alone. since then, I don’t think He Tian has ever looked so… taken aback. unsettled. 

and guess what? their relationship has only gotten better since then, and He Tian hasn’t touched him like that again. 

I don’t know, anon. it’s a tough call. I think tianshan have a lot more chapters ahead of them, and I don’t think Old Xian will allow them to end on bad terms. actually, I don’t think Old Xian will allow them to end on the terms that they’re on right now. they can only improve from here on out, but how Old Xian will go about showing that improvement is unknown to us. there are many paths this story can take, but rather than worrying about what might happen, let’s focus on the here and now. let’s focus on the problems at hand, and let’s focus on the development the characters are undergoing. 

don’t ignore the wrongness/cruelty of characters’ actions, but don’t romanticize them either. if you do, you’re only doing a disservice to the character’s personality, existence, and the author’s intentions.

(and as for this newest chapter specifically: I see why people can get excited about He Tian telling Guan Shan to wear the earrings. He Tian wants to verify to both himself and She Li that Guan Shan is with him now. that Guan Shan is no longer under She Li’s control. who doesn’t love a little verification of their OTP’s relationship, especially when it involves an enemy?

but at the same time, it’s unhealthy. Guan Shan doesn’t have a say. he’s being handed around like an object. I don’t think this is pessimistic thinking; I think it’s the truth that no one wants to acknowledge/hear. but I’m not saying that tianshan is wrong in this chapter; I’m saying that He Tian has good intentions, but he’s not showing them correctly. and there will be a chapter in which he does show them correctly, but we must travel this rocky road before we get to that point. patience is key, and I cannot wait until He Tian and Guan Shan reach that moment of clarity. you can’t have light without the dark.)