#not about the nabateans being just like him hiding because they are othered and endangered because of their race

[randomnameless]

I wouldn’t call it a genocide.

However, Nopes really made me reevaluate FE16!Claude and tbh, after playing VW and discoursing for, uh, 4 years, I still don’t think I have a solid grasp on what Claude was supposed to be in FE16, as a character.

After Nopes, all the kind of “uhhh” moments I found in FE16/VW really, hit home : Claude has a certain agenda he sometimes reveals, and what I used to find fascinating in FE16 about the unreliable narrators sort of apply - sort of - here, in the end, do we learn what is Claude’s goal? When is he straight out saying it, without metaphors or sweetening it to make sure his allies would support it?

There is this “small” tidbit here that really made me pause a bit after finishing VW :

A rising flame was alight as the flow of time carved a new history for Fódlan.

The ambitions of the Fell King Nemesis were crushed, averting what could have been the greatest crisis in the history of Fódlan. After five and a half years of war, a new age was set to begin.

Country, faith, history... All that had once formed the order of the world was wiped clean. The heroes whose very hands saved Fódlan from a dark fate commenced with the building of a new society.

The leaders of this new, unified Fódlan began their walk down a seemingly endless path—one towards a world that would cherish differences in race and belief, one where all life would be valued equally.

Those leaders clung to the hope that their path would not end with Fódlan, that it would someday span the seas to Dagda, and beyond the Throat to Almyra...

(i don’t have the text in the jp version it’s not in the datamine, maybe it’s a lolcalisation goof?)

How the crap can a world cherish differences in race and belief if faith is wiped clean??

Has Claude learnt anything about the CoS and reconsidered his initial PoV?

There is also this portion just before going to fight Z-Nemesis :

Let's defeat this dusty old King of Liberation and put an end to this history of lies.

Once we've done that, there'll be nothing holding us back. A new and brighter age will begin.

Claude, at this point, pretty much learnt from Rhea why those lies were born, and how the only “history full of lies” is the Church’s history, starting with Sothis, Nabateans being once a thing, Relics, crusts and what not.

Claude, who hides his Almyran heritage to protect himself from people who would, supposedly, bring him harm because of said heritage, wants to put an end to... Rhea’s lie to hide her Nabatean heritage because people slaughtered her race because of said heritage?

“There’ll be nothing holding us back” of course, Rhea conveniently dies at the end of this route (and off-screen because that’s how Fodlan rolls). But what was Claude meaning when he said “put an end to this history of lies”, was he thinking of revealing the Truth about Nabateans and Relics to the world at large ?

Would Rhea really have been okay with him revealing to the world at large that you can slaughter any green haired pointy eared being you find to get a shiny weapon and magical superpowers?

We don’t even need to think about this question, because Rhea doesn’t survive and the other Nabateans are ignored by the plot but it’s still fascinating to think about* : Claude wants to reveal everything about the Church or not? Putting an end to the history of lies means revealing the truth, or erasing history?

And yet, even if this Rhea’s convenient death was already alluded to in the Billy question about a world without Rhea - it was dealt with Claude asking Billy to take Rhea’s mantle and role which is important to Fodlan...

But even earlier, there is this convo :

But be honest. You're having a hard time adjusting to your new role, aren't you?

You weren't even a follower of Seiros to begin with, and somehow you've ended up as a representative of the church.

I realize that you might feel guilty about deceiving the believers for our cause...

But this is just what the archbishop wanted, and she's the highest authority in the church.

Of course Billy in FE16 is TV Static, so they can’t tell Claude whether his assumptions are right, or bonkers. But... B!Billy (even if FEH’s canonicity is, uh, shaky) pops up singing the songs of the Nabateans, L!Billys are guides and accepted their role of a prophet, SS!Billy accepts Rhea’s mantle even if they are a bit lost....

So why is Claude going all “woe is you” here, making assumptions about Billy’s wishes and thoughts about their new role as the leader of the Church?

Actually, I'd like for you to come with me, Teach. To help negotiate with the lords.

They're followers of the Church of Seiros, after all. It'll make things easier if we have someone there to speak on Rhea's behalf.

TFW Seteth - per the SS narrative, is used to “negotiate” and “deal” with randoms and Lords to gather troops... 

But here, Claude thinks Billy, as the appointed successor of Rhea, will make “negotiations easier” because... those Lords follow the CoS, and he believes the word of Rhea’s successor has enough weight to “convince” people? Is he suggesting they are mindless and need the Church to tell them to agree to whatever - because they are religious - or thinks Billy will support him and Billy’s presence (even if they repeat Claude’s words) will have more weight to those Lords because they are religious?

No wonder why Seteth couldn’t have fit that role...

Oh and there was tidbit too which I found really... odd

Good work, Hilda! You didn't do much manual labor, but you managed to rope the knights into helping us restore the monastery.

Claude wants to restore the Monastery to use it as a base of operations, but why the fuck is he thanking Hilda here? When she went “ Yeah! This is an important location for the church. To think you've left it in such a state!” earlier which is very, hm, insulting and grating, it’s not like they were kicked out of their base of operation after Supreme Leader’s visit, scattered everywhere, tried to survive and to find their leader - especially coming from Miss “1181 :  Goes back home to a wealth of free time” ????

So, after playing VW, can we say Claude has grown from his initial assumptions on the CoS and Rhea? Has he learnt anything? About the Church? Let’s check his S Support - avatar games are built like that, the pinnacle of character development for the Lords is often in the S Support

You're the successor Rhea appointed, aren't you? And now you're also the hero who saved Fódlan.

All those weak people who have nothing to cling to but their goddess... They'll rely on you just like they used to rely on Rhea.

You'll be a leader all who are struggling to survive in war-torn lands can look up to.

It’s pretty mild-positive here, even if the “nothing to cling to but their goddess” feels weird, just like the “Billy and Rhea’s role was to be something people could cling to”, but that will devolve in discussions about faith and it’s too serious for this blog.

And I...I want a ruler who can lay down a new set of values for the people. Values that don't exclude anyone for being different.

...

The fuck -

Rhea told you her story, how she tried to set some values through her book “be kind to each other” “don’t abuse the power of crests and relics bcs plz don’t kill me or my relatives” and it ended with Supreme Leader.

Claude is implying the values that “don’t exclude anyone for being different” are new, thus didn’t exist yet in Fodlan? Even if that was in Rhea’s book? And it was what the Central Church was all about - like getting rid of the xeno western church?

So what has Claude learnt at the end of his journey? Did his POV about the CoS change?

Hmm...

From :

The people of Fódlan only know a small part of the world. Their prejudices are born because they don't know what lies beyond their borders.

They totes didnt’ build the Throat because they saw what was “beyond their borders” and saw some people trying to invade them. Nope. They felt like building a fort. And we totally don’t learn what the Almyran army - who hails from “beyond the border” does to Fodlan in Nopes. 

To :

The majority of people in Fódlan believe in the Seiros faith that Rhea preaches.  That's why they accept the noble system as if it were the only option, and refuse to associate with those who believe in anything else. That closed-minded philosophy is the reason why Fódlan's Throat is locked tight. But if you remove the archbishop who strictly advocates that doctrine, that world view is no longer an absolute. There's room for free thought.  The leadership of the church would undoubtedly fall to you, and you would hold the power to change the shape of the faith. Of the world.  Then, for the first time, people would truly be free to think for themselves. To decide what's right, and what's wrong.

There is an odor of sulfur here...

anyways, it’s always funny to see Claude pretending the CoS is the reason why the people of Fodlan “accept” the “noble system” - maybe the CoS also has some reach in Brigid and Almyra to make them accept a noble system? Claude would know after all, he is a Prince of Almyra - and Rhea’s doctrine being the reason why the Throat is locked, and also the reason why the people don’t think by themselves (compare with the earlier point I tried to make about Billy being used as a figure head of the church, which would of course make the religious people nod to everything they say because they are religious and have no free will, having to follow the head of the church) and don’t decide what is right from what is wrong.**

Ending with :

And I...I want a ruler who can lay down a new set of values for the people. Values that don't exclude anyone for being different.

Well.

Claude’s journey starts from someone who genuinely thinks the CoS as it exists under Rhea’s tenure controls people and is the reason they can’t think and are close minded to... someone who, after learning the truth about the Church and its creation born from a story of intolerance***, still thinks it upheld values like “treating differently people who are different is A-ok!” and its subsequent faith should be “wiped clean”.

...

At least he thinks the concept of a Church can be useful - under Billy though - to help the people who might need it, but the current CoS and Rhea ?

Meh. Bleh. Watermelon tier.

Tl; Dr : Claude, even in FE16 and after VW, still thought Rhea was the reason why Fodlan was xenophobic, close minded, relied on the noble system, had too much turnips served at the monastery, etc etc.

If Clout is more ignorant than Claude, they still come to the same conclusion : Rhea is the reason why the Fodlan he wants cannot happen, and he has put as many thoughts about it as Supreme Leader did about her “new MAGA muhritocracy version” Fodlan.

In a way I find VW even more infuriating, because he had time to grow at the academy (even if he discovers water is wet in VW about Petra and Dedue existing), he meets Macuil and hears Rhea’s infodump - so his conclusion doesn’t make any sense, it’s as if you give that boy all ingredients to bake the best flan ever, and he gives you a hard boiled egg instead (in Golden Shower he only had an egg and some parsley).

----

*which is rich, considering he can marry Flayn, but the implications of “by the way I erased your Aunt and your Grandmother’s faith and I might have told the world by skinning you they will have shiny weapons, but we still marry and don’t tell your dad who can also be skinned for parts” are swept under a rug for a “eloped without telling the dad” jokes. Very funny. Ha.Ha.Ha.

It’s almost as funny as asking them to fight under what used to be Nemesis’s banner !

** Hilda’s paralogue is just like Bernie on a pyre event, it was a programming error in the game, left by the beta testing team. I mean, how could you explain Claude’s mutism in that map - which is native to his route - when he takes time to defend Almyra’s reputation in the Shamir paralogue? Rhea and her CoS are the reason why the people of Fodlan don’t like Almyra, Almyra never did anything wrong to them (or maybe thinks they are cowards :( ). 

We never heard of those raids you are speaking of. Why, if they really existed, you’d think the Almyran prince would think those raids are a more plausible reason explaining why Fodlan doesn’t love his country rather than come up with an elaborate theory about a woman controlling a skynet level of network dictating how people should think and what is right from wrong and removing their ability to “think for themselves”.

*** It’s also never adressed, because why would you care about Nabateans, how Claude’s dream to open borders and live together was... what Nabateans tried to do, and were rewarded with genocide. 

Rhea tells him Sothis tried to befriend humans and share her tech, they started a war against her and ultimately genocided her kin. Rhea trusted a human and made Adrestia? Well, 1k years later, Adrestia and that human’s descendant will invite her to the worst Zumba seminary ever - from which she could die of if she doesn’t rest for a month. And after that? The people her mom tried to befriend send her 5 nukes for funsies.

What do you do when some people accept to live with other people, but those other people refuse to live with you and prefer to see you dead? Everything will work out in the end, and Rhea conveniently dies. So kumbaya time for everyone!...

Or not?

The CG at the end of the route can be interpreted in different ways, but on one side we see Almyra with a kickass camel and many spears, and on the other side we see Fodlan people decked in armor, without weapons, not smiling and looking down.

Hm.

At least it’s better than what Nopes suggested about the shopping for souvenirs?

So, I think it’s time to reevaluate Claude in light of the analysis I’ve been doing. I know I’m going to take some flack for this, but I don’t think Hopes!Claude was meant as a retcon. I think that, due to the “quality” of the writing in Houses, Claude didn’t come out of the oven the way he was supposed to. That the “pure good guy” Claude was a happy accident, while Hopes!Claude is closer to how he was meant to be. The “villain you couldn’t hate.” I think the problems with the execution in Houses amount to two things, that joining Claude would result in a hero path for him due to his own character growth in addition to how people misinterpreted what his issue was.

Most people assumed Claude’s issue was one of ignorance. That he was this guy who comes to Fodlan, knows nothing about it, begins saying that Fodlan needs to change only for his ignorance to be called out in his own route. He learns the truth, reevaluates his positions, and ends up achieving his own form of Enlightenment. He never really does anything too villainous in other routes either, so this must be the problem. Right?

Recently, I’ve been talking about how Claude’s personal classes reveal the truth. He’s a wyvern lord, a guy atop of a lesser dragon. He’s somewhere between dragon and snake. The former represents enlightenment, the latter the poison/flame of hatred or aversion. Claude is also a bow user despite being a flyer, meaning he’s his own worst enemy. And with that in mind, it becomes pretty clear.

Claude dislikes the Church of Seiros, believing it’s the reason Fodlan isn’t so welcoming to foreigners. Specifically, they commissioned a fort to keep the Almyrans out, something that resulted in Almyrans viewing the people of Fodlan as cowards. While Claude has been shown to be able to admit he was wrong when presented with new data, usually through his supports, that is tied to a route where Claude begins working with the Church, becomes more open to the idea of some form of deity, empathizes with Rhea, and ends up believing that Rhea’s work must be carried on. This is presented with the implication that Claude undergoes his own enlightenment during Verdant Wind, resulting in someone who will help reshape Fodlan and Almyra. It is Claude taking up the mantle of the dragon.

I feel if you take this into consideration, Claude’s actions in other routes start taking on a new light. He doesn’t get over his prejudice against the Church in Silver Snow, uses the Church to retake the Great Bridge, causing the Church to suffer casualties that they need a month to recouperate while he then goes off marching to Gronder. He gets his ass kicked, survives according to Word of God only to leave Fodlan and the Alliance behind to rot. When he gets his ass kicked in Flower, he still arranged things so the people of the Alliance would back down and be spared. When he was getting ready to leave in Moon, he set up the Alliance rejoining the Kingdom and handed over his relic. In Silver Snow, he leaves nothing for the Church.

Then there’s his whole neutral stance, Claude is someone who talks a big game about how bad it is people are othered and how we need to accept others and their differences. That, despite Claude’s own aversion to religion. Edelgard declares war on the Church after everything seen in White Clouds, Claude isn’t looking out for a group being persecuted. He just tries to stay out of the fight. And when he does have to fight, he knows so little about Fodlan he assumes that the people his country views as cowards would run away and save themselves, not fight to the bitter end. It doesn’t even matter the fact that Claude outright calls Edelgard’s regime one of “military rule,” or how in Hopes she props up her own Church. He’ll still hand over the Alliance and leave if he can’t win, provided the player doesn’t opt to kill him, but he won’t hand it over to the Church.

Hopes and White Clouds being stopped in it’s tracks messes with Claude’s development. There is no Remire. No monster experiments. No Lonato, or trying to steal Relics. None of that shit. It’s just Edelgard declares war on the Church, invades the Alliance to take the Great Bridge in order to march on Garreg Mach, then tries to take over the capital.  While the invasion of the Alliance can be held against her, and is if Byleth isn’t recruited in Scarlet Blaze, Edelgard is still doing so in order to get rid of a group Claude doesn’t like and wants gone himself. Claude wants the Church gone.

Claude wants a genocide. Not against the Nabateans, but the Church itself. And is willing to work with Edelgard in order to accomplish this, provided the Empire isn’t setting itself on fire under Thales’ control. What’s more, Wildfire represents Claude losing himself further to his hatred after having to kill his brother, something he never wanted to do, because said brother rejected him due to his mixed-race heritage. From there, Darth Claude’s habit of playing dirty comes out more than ever, willing to drag more and more groups into the war just because he wants Rhea and the Church gone.

Claude wants to tell himself he’s the good guy here, but his shadow calls him out on pretending to be the good guy. Likewise, he also talks about how if Rhea is killed Edelgard will lose her justification for the war and unless she wants to be seen as the bad guy will stop. I feel like these both indicate that Claude is aware of how bad his actions actually are, but he wants his own acts to be seen as right. His hatred towards the Church has made him turn away from the truth, just like in his support where Dimitri easily points out flaws in what Claude is planning and how it’ll put him in danger only for Claude to end the discussion.

Least, that’s what I’m getting right now looking at everything. Yet despite this, this only makes me like Claude even more. I mean, it’s the same reason why the Eagles are my favorite class, that without Byleth they become the villains. Really makes Byleth’s impact on their lives be known, in addition to making Verdant Wind stand out more for it’s character growth. Claude goes from someone who wants the Church to be wiped out, in spite of his ideals I might add, to someone who has to face off against the guy who committed a genocide against Rhea’s people. That after Solon tried to manipulate him into fighting against Rhea like TWSITD are implied to have done with Edelgard, Claude rejects their influence and takes out her out alongside Nemesis. That Claude gets Rhea’s side of the story and realizes how she’s been othered herself, how she’s an outsider just like him, and what he wanted to do to her. Claude sees how wrong he was and how his hatred blinded him to the truth, and in the end becomes a better person for letting it go resulting in not only Fodlan changing but Almyra as well.

Claude’s growth is deeper than we realized.

But this is just my attempt at trying to rationalize what Hopes did. Make of it what you will. Cheers.