#my favorite movie about a probably gay historical figure is about Ludwig II

[kaiserin-erzsebet]

I think before we try to discuss the gayness of historical figures, we do need to ask where we locate gayness in someone's life.

Is it having the attraction? Or is it kissing and having sex with someone of the same sex? Is it being in a same-sex relationship?

If we couple it exclusively to being intimate with another person, well then you are going to have a hard time saying much about historical people without a public scandal or very revealing personal correspondence to know.

Is a gay person only gay if they've had a relationship ?

The contentious follow up question to "historians will say they were friends" is "what if they were?"

What if someone is attracted to their friend but doesn't necessarily act on it for a whole myriad of reasons? Does that invalidate their expression of those feelings?

And I know this isn't an uncommon gay experience because there used to be all sorts of jokes in LGBT circles about being in love with your friend who you aren't sure would ever return that affection. There are still jokes about having "I'm jokingly flirting unless you're into it" banter with friends.

Having a secret relationship with a friend who goes on to get married is the whole premise of a Chappel Roan song. And that's not even taking into account historical pressure to marry for economic or political reasons instead of attraction.

And when historians say "we can't say that this person would have identified this way" it can also mean that this person may have never acted on an internal attraction that we can nevertheless see in the ways that they try to explain their feelings to themselves or others. They simply may have never understood that as an option.

Tldr: I don't think we can have a meaningful conversation about whether historical figures were gay without talking about the wide variety of gay and bisexual experiences with friendship and attraction.