#ml s5ep25

[kisilinramblings]

The nightmare might be over in the end, but I wonder if we will continue to see Adrien being hesitant to even use his power in the future.

[kisilinramblings]

And let's take in that Chat Noir's fight against Psycauchemardeur despite being cathartic, left him traumatized and if it hadn't been from the help of his friends, it would have turned extremely bad.

Part of me will always mourn that we didn't get to see Chat Noir fighting Monarch, his father, in the finale battle. That's always gonna be nagging in the back of my mind.

At the same time, it was a little predictable, and what the writers chose to do instead makes a lot of sense when you think about it, and is maybe more satisfying for Adrien's arc regarding his relationship to his father than if he'd had to fight Monarch knowing it's Gabriel. (Not talking about the whole "he still doesn't know his father was Monarch" bit, I'm strictly talking about the fights here - that one's another topic entirely)

I say "predictable", because of what happened in "Representation". Adrien got here his moment to fight his father, as a seemingly akuma victim, and this on his own without Ladybug.

With this set-up we have here: Adrien confronting and fighting his father as in Gabriel Agreste, and Marinette confronting and fighting her nemesis as in Monarch. That's always what we envisioned as the finale fight against Monarch would be: Adrien vs his abusive father and Ladybug vs her enemy. It just didn't happen in the same fight, so both could separately have their moment and their thing to say.

I think in the end it's significantly more important that Adrien got to fight Gabriel Agreste as Psycauchemardeur focusing solely on him as his father, than have him fight Gabriel Agreste knowing it's Monarch. Because everything that happened in Representation, everything Adrien told his father as Chat Noir and everything Adrien was angry about regarding his father's behaviour with him, that all comes down to how Gabriel has acted as a father to him independently of him being a city terrorist.

If Adrien had had the realisation that his father's actions were terrible through the discovery that he was, on top of an abuser, a supervillain, then the whole "terrorising innocents" would have overshadowed in Adrien's anger all that Gabriel did to him personally as an abuser & shitty parental figure.

What I mean is that Adrien realising his father is shitty independently of knowing he's a terrorist and confronting him about it in a fight is part of his arc and is more impactful than Adrien confronting his father for his supervillain acts. He didn't realise Gabriel was a terrible person because he was a supervillain, but because he understood he was an abusive father and that's amazing

And that's why he got his moment in Representation while Marinette had hers in the finale - Gabriel is a shitty person both as a father and by being a magical terrorist. Adrien confronted him about the "shitty father" bit, and Marinette about the "magical terrorist bit", and both these things make sense with their respective character arcs & respective relationships to Gabriel

[kisilinramblings]

I don't know if you've seen the last two final episode yet but if you have, any thought?

I actually like it?

Sure, I was disappointed that Chat Noir didn't join up the fight. At the same time, I understand Adrien's reasons for not turning into Chat Noir in order to break himself free.

Not only was he hunted by the nightmare of him as Anti-Chat killing everything he cared about, but he was very self-aware at how emotionnally vulnerable he was to be akumatized and making that nightmare come true. This season made him realized he can be so angry to the point of he wants to cataclysm people. It almost happened with both Darker Owl AND Dark Humor this season. Adrien backing off, remaining in "prison" and taking off his Miraculous so Plagg put it in safety for the time being was not him giving up. It was him trying to protect his loved ones. And he was also unaware this was a Monarch attack going on that needed Chat Noir.

Also, everything was made so Adrien doesn't find out for now that his father was Monarch. I don't consider Marinette was in the right even if Gabriel asked her to make sure Adrien doesn't learn the truth. And unbestknown to Gabriel, his dying request landed exactly on Marinette's nightmare territory. Remember the nightmare she had at the beginning. In it, Marinette accidentaly "kills" Gabriel after vanquishing him, right under Adrien's eyes which upset him, asking her why did she did this to his father.

So all ingredients seem to be there for this secret to come back to bite them if it is ever discover. The fact Gabriel has a statue, even if it built on a lie, means that something of him remains even if he is gone. And lately, we have seen that statues IRL can be toppled. But yeah, as long as Gabriel's statue is standing high, his shadow still is present. That is how I view it.

Outside of that, the fight between Bug Noir and Monarch was satisfying. I love that she swung a shovel at Monarch's face sending him flying and the use of Lucky Charm in succession was actually interesting.

I liked that La Résistance try to help however they can. I'm not sure on how pertinent it was for Gabriel and Tomoe's last attack to be international, but I didn't mind. DC and Marvel both have heroes from their respective IPs coming together to fight when there is a global threat affecting more than one city. And it is no secret both Jeremy Zag and Thomas Astruc desire to create their own Zag universe of superheroes.

Also, Tomoe is so up to no good.

Luka was a surprise. I didn't expect him to be trained by Su-Han, however, considering that Su-Han was able to repel an Akuma and since Luka does know both LB and CN's identity, and that Su-Han and Luka already have met once during Ephemeral (as that part wasn't erased), that ending is not that weird if they wanted him back in the story eventually (and reminder that Mirakungfu is meant to disarm Miraculous Holders who went rogue). Anyway, with Luka, a side story about that would have been welcome. But fun detail, Luka's martial style is based on the Snake!

Love the true form of Tikki and Plagg and seeing them fuse into Gimmi was something.

"You humans always summon me to complain. Never to rejoice".

Yeah, feels about right.

Lila's intervention in the finale was pretty tame, but the conclusion is what we expected : she gets the Butterfly Miraculous. But it is probable she might have seen Ladybug untransformed alongside witnessing how to summon Gimmi (although there is no way to know for sure right now). Plus, Lila will have help which I didn't expect. And it seems it is someone who knew where to find here.

Btw, can we have more politician like Mayor Bustier, please? I know it is very utopist, but sign me up for that future.

So yeah, that finale closed a book BUT this isn't the end. There is something uncanny going on during the pool party. It's the illusion of a perfect ending.

Sign me up for S6. o/

[kisilinramblings]

can i ask what you liked about s5's finale? and why your fine with adrien being left out of it (this isn't meant to be salty at all but idk how else to phrase it)

Oh, trust me, I was disappointed that Adrien could not join, but under the context he was in, I understood why the character acted the way he did. Also, I don't view Adrien staying behind as him giving up. It was him doing what he thought was best to keep Marinette and the others safe and taking it upon himself, even if it is detrimental to him.

Remember that in the previous episode, Adrien did escape and that didn't work for him. His father in his fury went after and hurt Adrien's friends and would have done the same to Marinette. And the nightmare (read trauma) Adrichat received during the battle wasn't helping at all. Adrien didn't want to repeat all of that. And Adrien ended up conforming to what his father wanted out of him. Was it the right move? I am sure the boy will have regrets and mixed-up feelings of his own such as "I should have been there" that will influence his actions next seasons alongside with fearing his own superpower. Add to that the fact he believes his father died trying to help Ladybug and you get some mess up scenario for a 14 going 15 who was abused by his father to go through.

Another variable I count in, Adrien didn't know nor could have known that this was an attack from Monarch when he asks Plagg to send the Black Cat Miraculous back to Ladybug for the time being. It was meant to protect his Miraculous from Monarch (and from himself), but all it actually did was to keep Adrien's identity a secret. Speaking of which, the secret identities is a factor that contributes to Adrichat to not open up and avoid asking for actual help. And unlike Maribug, he doesn't have a network to rely on. Only Plagg. Maybe Luka, but with his training, I am not sure we will see him around Paris that much. Adrichat doesn't have the social network that could help him mend all he is dealing with. Despite being surrounded as a civilian, being loved and having people who cared about him, but he is still somewhat alone. Carrying his burden and emotions alone.

I still overall liked the season finale, but of course, if you were expecting S5 to conclude it all, that wasn't what it was setting to do. No, S5 finale was only meant to end Gabriel / Monarch's arc. But it was never meant to be the end of the ML story. And Gabriel chose to die. He only fixed one single mistake in his entire pile higher than the Eiffel tower. And as illustrated with Marinette who had to fix the Miraculous back herself, every single remaining mistakes of Gabriel that he didn't fix gets thrown in the pile of the characters who still remain and live.

And in Adrien's case, while he is free from his abuser, he still will have a lot of untangling to do and demons to fight even if he tries to repress those.

[kisilinramblings]

When you think about it, it is quite the turn of fate that Ladynoir grow up and get unlimited access to their power in Revolution only for them to be screwed over from the moment they got separated either by force or by trick.

Now, I am wondering what would have happened if Marinette didn't leave the party.

[kisilinramblings]

The commun element between both Chat Blanc and Ephemeral is not the Wish, but that Gabriel akumatizes Adrien and uses him for his plan.

During S5, there is at least three episodes in which Gabriel/Monarch gets qualified as a "Monster".

Passion, by Mister Bug :

Forcing such a fragile person to carry out his twisted plans... Monarch is a monster!

Transmission, the exchange between Nathalie and Gabriel :

Nathalie : Your son isn't feeling well. Gabriel : I know. Nathalie : Don't take advantage of his distress. Gabriel : I'm not a monster. I'm just here to comfort him. I'm his father, am I not?

And what does Gabriel do? Encourages his son to wear an Alliance to "make him an even more powerful Akumatized Villain" as Monarch later puts it. Hello parallels!

Emotion, an episode packed with mentions by both Félix and Amélie. First with this bit :

Amélie : You haven't been the same since my sister Émilie disappeared! Why are you rejecting us? Gabriel : This is not the place nor the time, Amélie. Nathalie will see you out. Amélie (to Nathalie) : I don't understand how Gabriel can become so cruel, let alone why you're so complicite in his actions.

And...

Félix passing as Adrien : All eyes are on you. Marinette : They're looking at me like I'm a monster. Félix : Look closer, Marinette. They're the monsters.

Plus...

Argos : Good evening, Uncle. You can call me Argos now. Gabriel : How dare you. I would never allowed you-- Argos : Oh! I think you will, Uncle. It's time for someone to finally put an end to your endless desire to control people -- Adrien, my mother, me! -- and to turn us into whatever you want us to be! I'm freeing us from you!

Lastly...

Amélie : You were right. I did everything you told me to and Gabriel didn't do nor say anything to help me. He despises me. He's a monster. They're all monsters.

And I am probably missing other instances and implications of Gabriel's increasing cruelty and monstrosity.

Anyway, perhaps the point wasn't much for Adrien to be able to face his father, but to be safe from his father's ultimate act of abuse. It is apparently the line Gabriel mustn't cross even if he did in two alternate timelines and was ready to do it in S5 as Gabriel was dying.

Yes, we can argue which is worst between being send away against your will, being put in a white torture room or being akumatized by your own parent to turn against your best friend. But hopefully now Adrien will be able to learn the truth, process it and be able to heal without his abuser around. Although the fact there is another Butterfly Holder using the Miraculous for evil purposes will probably mess with that process. But at least, it isn't Adrien's own family who will be using him, right?

Alright I’m gonna say it.

I know people defending the finale of season 5 reason for Adrien not being there have the main defense of “Chat Blanc and Ephemeral” as why story wise Adrien shouldn’t have been involved in the final confrontation.

Not only do I think those are weak arguments, Season 5 has so many different conditions from the other two seasons, including the growth of Marinette and Adrien. Plus with Gabriel dying that’s a whole new variable to be considered. The situational variables don’t line up as a proper explanation. It’s a shoddy reasoning at best.

But the nail in the coffin of the arguments are the fact that Gabriel got the wish.

In both ephemeral and Re-creation he got his wish.

And y’all are telling me that Adrien being involved would have made things worse?

Nah, sorry. I don’t buy it.

(But Adrien could be controlled)

Yes, and it would make it BETTER!

Imagine the final fight, Adrien being forced to fight bug noire.

Oh the angst! The suspense.

So many things for this finale that could have been done. But weren’t.

The only reason I can THINK that has any merit to having Adrien not be involved is for drama later, but it’s not really set up for that and until season 6 is out and shows potential of it… it’s straight up Copium.

[kisilinramblings]

I can understand your point about how monochrome the Agreste Mansion is especially since it is designed to be this way. Plus the lighting is artificial as the mansion is in lockdown during the final battle, so no external light (nor help) can come in. I still believe there was storytelling purpose into have them fight into such specific rooms.

The battle starting in the Kitchen was an important part because of how it's in continuity with what happened in Pretension.

The Hall was a call back to scenes like the ones in Simonsays and Collector among other episodes.

And for the underground room, it's obviously in comparaison to Chat Blanc as they enter it through the roof as well along with a reveal about Émilie's whereabouts.

So, yeah, visually, I can understand it can be boring because on how black and white the house is and we are way too used of having epic final showdown happening in visually baffling sets. But it is a set that represents perfectly who Gabriel Agreste is at his core. A man with a all or nothing vision who in full control of their environment and whose one weakness is Émilie. And there was a lot of building put very early for the fight to be set in that very place.

Heck, as am I rewatching some scenes, I find a lot of stuff planted here and there.

"If I were you, I wouldn't use Cataclysm here, dear Adrien" (FR dub)

I love BugNoir's design, but part of me really wishes they had set the fight somewhere else. I guess it was always inevitable that they'd end up at Emelie's tomb, and that necessitated going through the Agreste Mansion (though, maybe inevitable is the wrong word. I also thought it'd be inevitable that Adrien was part of the final fight, and we all know how that turned out). But setting basically all of it in the foyer and the kitchen? It's visually boring. It's just white and a bit of black and grey, all lit super flatly. The only colour comes from the characters.

It doesn't help that it's all taking place during the day, when not even the color of the sunlight can add anything. The show has gotten a lot of great use out of golden hour, twilight and night. Look at the end of season 4 for a good example: We start during the day, we get dramatic action evening sky, and we end in the twilight. The Ladynoir hug there was going to be good no matter what, but the lighting made it even better.

No such thing in this finale, though, it's day and it stays day for the entire two-parter.

Compared to how incredibly pretty Representation was lit, this is a bit of a letdown. The show can look so incredibly gorgeous at times, but somehow the finale wasn't the episode that got that.

Yes, the finale was complex because it had so many characters and sets, including bringing back New York and Shanghai and big Tikki and Plagg, and that certainly meant more people-hours and thus more money spent there that couldn't go into lighting.

And to be fair, the action we got was awesome. The Marinette-vs-Gabriel fight was absolutely amazing. That was money well spent. I just feel like it could have been even better with a different background.

Still: I believe Bug Noir deserved better lighting. And Adrien there, for moral support.

[kisilinramblings]

Yeah, some people are really missing out the point of S5 in regard of Gabriel, huh? The whole season had Gabriel facing consequences for his own actions.

Evolution : Monarch uses too many powers and suffers from it. Gabriel also arrived at a crossroad and made a stupid choice. As a result, he not only loses the Time Miraculous, but also Nathalie's support at the end of the episode.

Destruction : Monarch prefers to get Cataclysmed rather than admit defeat. He also escapes with the Lucky Charm, making Ladybug unable to heal him and sealing his fate by the same occasion.

Illusion : The Résistance to oppose Monarch is born.

Passion : Nathalie accepts to get herself akumatized but it is done with the intent to betray Monarch and prevent him to make the Wish.

Deflagration : Monarch loses to teens with sauce pistols and his own son is the one to take off the Ladybug Miraculous from him.

Perfection : Tomoe barged in and threatened Gabriel if he ever dares endangered her daughter's life again.

Intuition : The whole episode is about how Gabriel keeps digging his own grave and losing precious time IN VAIN.

Protection : Nathalie goes behind Gabriel's back and counters his abusive order so Adrien can love the person he wants.

Emotion : Félix going full anarchist mode against Gabriel and his elistic friends during their Diamond Bal isn't a consequence of Gabriel's actions? Please. This was retrobution and even an act of vengeance from Félix regarding how he was treated during the Gabriel Agreste episode.

Pretension : Gabriel's decision to send Adrien to London for next year left Adrien both disgusted and furious at him.

Revelation : Gabriel's treatment of Lila turned her into a vicious enemy. And she gets her hand on all of his little secrets at the end of the episode.

Collusion : The kitchen scene? Adrien telling his father how his pancakes (read future) taste as awful as ever? Adrien even prefered to walk to school instead of being transported to school. Gabriel is also played like a fiddle by Lila through Chloé. Oh! And André puts an end to his friendship with Gabriel after seeing Gabriels little montage. André isn't even mad. In fact, he pities Gabriel for falling so low.

Revolution : The last conversation between the father and son as civilians is about how Gabriel's decisions about his son's future are making Adrien heartbroken and unhappy.

Representation : Half of the episode is a clashdown between an Akumatized Gabriel and a Chat Noir very angry at his father. Gabriel's parenting style gets call out. Also, Félix and Kagami both seek out Ladybug's help and tell her everything to stop Gabriel's madness.

Conformation : Nathalie attempted to kill Gabriel as a last resort. Ladybug comes to Gabriel's house with the intent to stop him, defeat Monarch and retrieve the Kwamis.

Re-Creation : Gabriel dies. Gabriel chose to die using a god-like power rather than to consider spending his last hours trying to do human scale solutions to his mistakes like Bug Noire proposed. Also, a dead man cannot enjoy nor care of what the living think of him. (Plus, the narrative of Gabriel dying as an hero is a LIE told by Ladybug to both Adrien and the rest of Paris and we the audience are fully aware of it).

tl;dr; Gabriel dug his own grave. The more Gabriel fought against it, the quickier the Cataclysm effect spread on his body. Gabriel's actions leave him losing or hurting his relationships with his long-time friends and loved ones. Gabriel's enemies were coming at him this season more than ever before. He even makes some new ones. Doesn't matter if Parisians thinks he died as an hero, Gabriel is dead. He cannot enjoy this, nor benefit from it anyway. If anything, this lie will be affecting others instead.

"gabriel got redeemed" no he did NOT that is not what a redemption looks like stop calling it that. he made one not-completely-shitty-choice that's not a redemption, that's the last shred of humanity he possessed okay thank you

"gabriel died and didn't face any consequences" HE WAS ROTTING AND TURNING TO ASH ALIVE FOR MONTHS. THAT'S A PRETTY BIG CONSEQUENCE. HE WAS LITERALLY CRUMBLING TO PIECES BEFORE HE DIED. HE MUST HAVE BEEN IN INCREDIBLE PAIN FOR A LONG TIME (WHICH HE DESERVED!!!)

[kisilinramblings]

By everything, you mean the scenes in Nathalie's room. Félix didn't say nor mention on how Gabriel got his hands on the Miraculous in the first place. Just that he got them at one point. And chances are Félix didn't know himself how much Nathalie was involved in the process. Félix was mostly telling his story. Not Gabriel's although some of Gabriel's actions had their impacts on Félix's story

Anyway, despite the play, Marinette doesn't know all of Gabriel's past. That was left for her to find out and there are still details that are obscure to even her. Nathalie and her ties and involvement, for example, was totally obscured from the play.

Also, receiving the info that Gabriel is Monarch and witnessing it by your own eyes are two different things. Plus, if it really was just about talking to Nathalie and learning where Adrien was kept prisoner, Marinette wouldn't have come to Gabriel's house as Ladybug. But she was investigating, wanting to rescue Adrien, and ready for battle even if she wasn't mentally prepared to what she would face.

So actual question.

Does Marinette know Adrien is a sentimonster? The finale isn’t very clear on that, and Marinette didn’t really seem to grasp the Feligami high art play dream. So do we have confirmation on that?