#miquella used and compelled them all against their will

[morgana-ren]

Lord Gehenna Big-Bonkers just finished bullying Miquella and his zombie-puppet like they were rich kids on the playground and she took their hats for good measure. She is now headed back home to her new husband Messmer where they will rule the Lands Between as it was truly intended to be— without Griffith-esque eternal 12 year old creeps, or shitty golden Loch Ness monsters giving orders from aliens.

[zafulz]

Regarding SotE's ending.

Spoilers ahead, rant.

I'm a dissappointed on the fandom always wanting to take sides for the most nuanced narratives ever written in games, sometimes it feels like we play different games at all. They want to excuse other demigods and put the blame on the ones who wanted to changed the status quo, when we all should realize how the Greater Will and the Outer Gods had influence and have been the ones to actually be playing chess with their tragic fates. Radahn and Morgott wanted to keep and perpetuate Marika's / Golden Order rule, Miquella, Ranni and Rykard wanted to get rid of all the Gods (using the Stars/Moon, destroying gods or becoming God themselves), and Mogh, Malenia and Godwyn had their fates taken by Outer Gods/Plots. They were all played and incited by the horrors of Marika, under the Greater Will. Remember that Marika shattered the Elden Ring to rebel against the Greater Will due to all the grief and most recently Godwyn's death, so we can guess she realized too late.

Then, it surprises me how easy we are to label Miquella as a villain without taking all that into the equation. The game changers, following up Ranni's statements, were only Miquella, Malenia (as she was almost ready to become a goddess even before Miquella), and her. Ranni, probably the one who knew all of Marika's record and was already done with the situation of her family and the Lands Between, started this first with killing Godwyn. Miquella just could not keep at delaying the facts during the time he tried to revive his brother and revert his twin curse, leading to despising the Greater Will and deciding to ascend having learned the horrors of the Lands of Shadow and the current state of the Lands Between. The actions taken by them can't be honestly judged at certain human moral standpoint, since we are talking of literal demigods, SOME of them supporting the current status quote where Omens, Demi Humans, Albinaurics, Giants where OBLITERATED to keep the Golden Order's rule. The DLC covers the process in which Miquella decided to walk the same path as Marika, probably for similar "better world" goals, but Marika just followed the Greater Will. Miquella decided to become a god and strip himself from all essence, without any guidance. Is not a mending rune to keep the Elden Ring somehow. The story trailer show us how Marika called the Greater Will, now dried up after thousands of sacrifices, Miquella becomes a God by stripping himself of what attaches him to the world (reminds me of Tales of Symphonia, where Colette is loosing all senses to become an angel or the Avatar State) St. Trina asks us to kill him, because she understood this path will only create another Greater Will-like God, no feelings, just cold stare and control, a caged god.

Now, somethings that aren't clear is how the affection compelling powers works. Miquella shattered his own rune knowing this would remove his "charm" from others. Why he did that? What's the vow Radahn and Miquella made? The cutscene crystal clear shows Miquella is afraid of becoming a god, but taking that decision on this vow.

Probably a fight with Malenia before becoming Lord. Whispered this part on his ear like normal.

A LOT of information is missing, but the point was that there are no " villains" in this game, BUT THE GODS. It is a Man vs God narrative that is very nuanced. Thanks for your time.

Ps. Did you notice this?

Grace and the Gods influence reflect in the eyes. Messmer is final proof of it when he breaks his Grace and Serpent appears isntead, or Miquella showing up with eyes shut, becoming a God himself. Ranni Melina I wish we could have more dialog options and reactions from what we did in this DLC :')

[wraith-caller]

i saw this art on the hellsite that was a really good idea and so well designed. it was the seven deadly sinse with ER characters. more specifically, demigods, except...

Fia was lust. and i was weirdly bummed out by that. i dont think she represents lust at all, and it was very random to have her be the 1 non-demigod in the group. the sex she has is not coming from a place of lust, it comes from a place of subservience and duty. its the opposite of lust, it's perfunctory. i hate this word bc of how the internet has made it near meaningless, but, it comes from a place of being groomed and conditioned, forced into a role she never asked for and was born into. so it felt like both a misapplication and a missed opportunity, because there IS a demigod who DOES represent lust quite well and his name is mohg.

mohg actively lusts after miquella, desiring to become his consort and offering his own blood to him, stealing and coveting him. he's so blind with his desire for miquella, he sooner seems to think we are there for MIQUELLA than his great rune! ("miquella is mine and mine alone" on player kill). He lusts after a reality where he is beloved and can share his maladjusted brand of love with others. he takes without consent, repeatedly, not just miquella but his war surgeons, and maybe even his bloody fingers(do they know theyre going to be driven mad by the cessblood when they take it? it's not like varre gives us any warnings about how it might affect us). the lack of love in mohg's life has so clearly affected how he expresses it himself. he's known SO much pain that when a mother who comes to him acknowledging that pain and telling him the suffering is not pointless but is in fact the key to truth and love, both things mohg has been denied all his life, of course he takes to it. of course he agrees and wants to share that 'love' with others, and wants them to 'love' him back.

mohg's lust is in turns twisted and tragic and pitiable and hideous, so it's very compelling compared to anything you could use to connect fia with lust. OTHERS may lust after fia, but she doesn't use that as a weapon. she presents herself as someone for others to trust and confide in, and doesn't use sex to do that, but her words and praise. the only one SHE comes anywhere near lusting for is godwyn. but she doesn't lust for him, she CARES for him. she wants to help him, but her tools are limited and so she uses the ones she has, the ones she has been raised with, taking the role she was assigned against her will and reshaping it into something she finds fulfilling. it isn't lust that drives her to godwyn, it's a desire for freedom, for self-determination, and it's care for others who have been similarly outcast by the world the same way she has by her own country.

idk. it just felt reductive and ruined the whole piece for me. it was very great art otherwise so hopefully no one takes this as me like shaming the artist for their choices. everyone has different visions for stuff. just having thoughts, on my blog.

[avesomnia-inhoramortis]

[ooc]

The hardest part of characterizing Miquella, for me, is reasoning out his consort decisions.

I don't think Miquella was in love with Radahn. If he was, he would've advertised it, made statues and gilded armor and all kinds of things, but there's no evidence of that. Of the weapons we can confirm he personally crafted, there's Malenia's hand and the sword intended to fully kill Godwyn. Also, if Radahn's condition for marriage was an honorable defeat in battle, why not just a duel without civilian and soldier casualties?

I think he was in love with Godwyn, and if we're riding headcanons then Godwyn already had a consort in Fortissax. The idea of tiny Miquella having a rivalry with this ancient dragon is very funny to me, like your toddler nephew saying he's going to steal your husband.

So, okay. He loves Godwyn, Godwyn doesn't love him back like that, but he still needs an Elden Lord. Plan B: everyone says Radahn almost the spitting image of Lord Godfrey, and he's a friendly guy. Barring all the murder. That works, he can just convince Radahn to tone it down and only murder when his god wills it. Easy.

So he gets Radahn to promise him his hand in marriage. Radahn... may or may not have actually taken Miquella seriously. Miquella is cursed to be an eternal child, and also his main interests are scholarship and healing. Radahn is a wizard, sure, but he uses his skills to crush the enemy and see them driven before him. So perhaps he takes it as a joke. Or maybe he even takes it seriously. Either way, he's not actually agreeing to anything unless Miquella is willing to meet him on the field of battle and prove his worth the way men do.

I don't think Radahn could marry anyone who couldn't punch his lights out and give him hell on the training grounds, you know? If anything, he might've started getting a crush on Malenia.

And then Radahn is too busy protecting Sellia to have time for games anymore.

The Shattering happens. Godwyn is killed. There were probably a few intervening weeks or months between the two, I think, but either way suddenly Godwyn is dead and that is intolerable, so Miquella gets to work saving the world- and his siblings- to the best of his ability. He's never done anything less.

And the idea festers. With Godwyn dead and Fortissax... gone, somewhere, wouldn't Godwyn be grateful to come back? Wouldn't he love him for it? Malenia loves him because he tries to heal her, right, but he's never had anything to offer Godwyn until now. If he gives him life, Godwyn will be his perfect lord. Easy. Radahn's preoccupation is a nonissue now.

But nothing works.

Miquella can't save his sister and he can't save Godwyn. He needs to be a god to do either of those things.

And Radahn is holding the heavens in place, which interferes with the resurrection ritual. So nevermind all of it- Radahn is a major issue.

And if he will not take Miquella seriously, if he will not fall in line for the good of mankind, then he will be compelled to.

So.

All of that? I can make it work. All of that I can stitch together. But I have no idea where Mohg would fit on the timeline, when they met, how long their affair was going on.

And furthermore, I feel like Mohg would have been eager to marry Miquella without any compulsion whatsoever. And if Miquella really wasn't a racist, as he styled himself, then I don't see any reason for him to object to an omen consort who's deeply concerned with the downtrodden of the Lands Between. Hells, it would send a good message to his followers that he really IS honest about accepting those rejected by grace.

He doesn't even have to actually be in love with him- we certainly aren't in love with Marika, when we become her Elden Lord.

The only solid reason I can think of to object to Mohg would be the fact that he's the chosen high priest of the Formless Mother. Miquella has a lifelong notable vendetta against outer gods, so maybe he wouldn't be willing to open up that particular avenue of "corruption". He must remain unalloyed to achieve what he wants. Maybe he's even got some sort of pity for people who genuinely follow an outer god like misguided lambs. I wonder what he thought of the Kindred of Rot, worshipping the thing killing his sister, begging her to be their divine mother.

Maybe, like a child, he thought they were flat out stupid. It'd be a cruel irony if Miquella dehumanized, infantilized and belittled people for worshipping gods. It's easy to steal the agency of people you think are fools- it's for their own good.

I'll have to think about him and Mohg awhile to fully develop an idea though.

[radabeast]

A Character Analysis of Mohg

Okay. so this started as a ramble in response to tumblr/twitter talk i’ve been seeing, and then branched off into an entire multi-para analysis… bear with me. or not. TL;DR: i feel mohg is a very compelling and even pitiable character in the overall story of elden ring, but also he is very not a good person. And well, duh

i do agree that mohg having any sort of sexual misconduct toward miquella ISNT canon and doesnt Need to be considered as such, however. to say that “there is no implied incest here at all” also is honestly not quite right.

in his very introduction cutscene, mohg takes miquella’s hand, calls him “my dearest”, and presses his forehead against it. says “miquella is mine and mine alone”, implying that, you know, he values him as more than just a replaceable key to assuring his own rule. and while “bloody bedchamber” is agreeably too vague to canonize any sexual contact… it’s also definitely a curious term to use in regards to half-siblings?

i agree that you can be a mohg fan and it doesn’t have to be Weird. i agree that mohg is a very compelling, VERY intriguing, and even sympathetic character. but i also think it’s a bit of a disservice to the full brunt of his role, as well as a naive sort of de-fanging to him, to think he would be capable of like. a whole blood cult, but not incest or even worse. or god forbid, that he’d even NEED to be BEWITCHED in order to kidnap miquella

mohg’s whole origin is of someone who was forsaken, abandoned by god herself, and then found a new mother, one who has promised him love and purpose. he is very capable, but also very starved. this starvation of love, appreciation and praise has led to him creating an entire cult around himself, devoted to his supposed future dynasty.

clearly, he’s got the drive to conquer, and a very apparent disregard for a good amount of life. he didn’t just approach miquella and try to manipulate him into a partnership— he stole him, while he was cocooned, and while he was helpless and unable to even possibly consent. he did not care at all for miquella’s beloved haligtree, and the denizens within it that saw it as their very hope; mohg forsook them from even his own presumed form of salvation, and left all of the haligtree without their own savior, their greatest hope. they know not who took him, or even presumably who could’ve possibly done it; all they know is that he is gone.

i will go so far to call this not only callous of mohg, but also cowardice. instead of a diplomatic attempt, he pulls a secretive kidnapping and retreats down to his palace hidden beneath the earth. not by any means a forthcoming fellow, but we also honestly shouldn’t expect that of him. and like, come on. the corrupting blood? the blood that gets put inside of you and corrupts and infests? i could make a whole analysis on that too. it’s insidious!

but circling back around. mohg is someone who is starved of love and family, so in addition to his desire of praise and power (as a direct offspring of marika herself, no less!), he has made his own warped, corrupted version of one— a cult, as well as positioning himself a consort of his own half-brother. miquella is not a beloved sibling to him, but a tool and a key to his rule; the formless mother told mohg that he was needed, and mohg took him. he is not treated as a person by him, awake and able to converse with his own thoughts (and we are outright told mohg receives no answer at all, ever). miquella is dehumanized, and placed within a role he wasn’t able to consent towards. (varre and the other non-surviving surgeons also shared a very similar fate, as well.)

so with that— while i actively abhor the idea of incest or even so far as rape, yes— why WOULD it be outside of mohg’s known character to behave as such, though? even the potentiality of it. i’m not going to get on a soapbox, i’m not SAYING you should accept a canon that he’s an incestuous rapist. all i’m saying is that, yes, it actually could very well track, and feed into his character further?

mohg is a sympathetic character indeed, abandoned by his mother, god herself, for his very appearance outside of anyone’s control, and then left clinging to the one and only hope he’s ever found in the formless mother. of COURSE he’d listen to whatever that mother says. of COURSE he’d have a warped view of personhood and family and love. even if mohg was capable of those detestable things— and he’s already a murderous kidnapper with a blood cult, mind you!— that doesn’t disregard that we can see where he was coming from, how his upbringing would lead to this!

i respect mohg fans, and mohg fans also need to be treated with respect. but i also think we can’t just say it’s crazy to say that mohg isn’t morally detestable, or potentially capable even of those things, even if with a pitiable bent. and that’s fine if he is! he is a story character and he fills a very intriguing role

[miirshroom]

Shadow of the Erdtree - Mohg is still Vile and Miquella's "Mind-Control" Powers before becoming a God were Greatly Exaggerated

Thesis: Mohg absolutely did not beat the allegations of kidnapping and child molestation. It is incredibly shortsighted to reach this conclusion based on the words of one person, who is also a supporter of Mohg. There are many more pieces of context to consider.

Mind-control is speculative fiction

"Mind-control" is a word that is easy to understand. There is a mind, it is being controlled. But in the literal sense mind-control isn't real - you can't pilot another person around like a meat puppet. The closest concepts that actually exist are "coercive persuasion" or "thought reform". Both of which mean "reduce its subject's ability to think critically or independently, to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into their minds, as well as to change their attitudes, values, and beliefs." The English language doesn't care about clarity of understanding - it likes metaphors and evocative imagery - so this is better known as brainwashing. The CIA's MK Ultra experiments used drugs and torture to psychologically break down subjects and destroy them mentally but were unable to fill the void with anything. Ex-cult members have described their experience as brainwashing, and I think that this is where some cognitive dissonance is found surrounding what brainwashing means.

Cults certainly have been documented to impair a person's ability to think critically, but I think the key difference is that they don't actually introduce "unwanted" thoughts. Humans are social creatures and want to belong to a group - and if the cost of belonging is to change attitudes, values, and beliefs to conform then some people will pay that price. But adding complexity to this - academia is keen on obfuscating the definition of what a cult actually is. There are all of these hoops being jumped through to avoid admitting that the modern cult should mean the same thing that it means in the context of cults from 2000 years ago. A cult is a group that adheres to a belief system about divinity, the afterlife and other alleged supernatural phenomena that is impossible to prove or disprove, and which has political power proportional to the size of its membership. By this definition, all religions are just politically powerful cults that went mainstream. Which is why it isn't the definition that is used.

So does brainwashing define a cult? No, as just established brainwashing isn't literally real - not in the way that it is portrayed in fiction. A cult is defined by adopting an irrational belief system that impairs a person's ability to think critically.

2. The nature of "Mind Control" in Elden Ring

We have places where the ideas of perfect mind-control are explored in speculative fiction and fantasy. High fantasy stories don't use the words "mind-control" or "brainwashing" because there are already all of these archaic words and concepts that people thought of to get across idea that someone is being made to do something against their will. "Compelled", "Bewitched", "Charmed", "Enchanted", "Possessed by Demons".

Rennala "bewitched" the academy of Raya Lucaria with her moon sorcery. Well, she's literally a witch - so that is accurate. Ignoring the supernatural angle one definition of bewitch is "to attract or interest someone a lot so that you have the power to influence them". I suppose this is originating from the idea that men are not responsible for their own emotions, so it's the witchy woman getting into their head in a supernatural way. Regardless, the academy was interested in Rennala's moon, because studying celestial bodies is their purpose and the moon is a celestial body.

The Bewitching Branch:

"Tree branch blessed with an incantation of unalloyed gold. Pierce a foe, using FP to turn them into a temporary ally. The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection."

The word "compel" means "to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly" or "to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure". So this combined the idea of bewitching and compulsion means to attract interest and to use overwhelming pressure to cause an irresistible urge towards affectionate love. The Greek word for affectionate love is "Philia" and an expanded definition would be "the type of love that involves friendship. Philia is the kind of love that strong friends feel toward each other." The large Albinauric woman at the Apostate Derelict who Latenna travels to visit in the Consecrated Snowfields is also named Philia. The function of the Bewitching Branch is to make enemies your friend and it is a spell that specifically works through contact. It is even shown directly in the Land of Shadow that Miquella's "charms" do not overwrite anyone's personality - they just are pacified from killing each other. That was probably also the limit of Miquella's power before ascending to a god. The power of friendship.

The nature of the Bewitching Branch being crafted from Sacramental Buds and a Miquella's Lily is tied to the idea of the Haligtree being grown from Miquella's blood. Gideon grants the Bewitching Branch recipe just for reaching the Mohgwyn area - not even for defeating Mohg - and insults the Lord of Blood for good measure. After actually defeating Mohg is when Gideon grants the incantation "Law of Causality". I wonder if these are bigger hints than it seems. The Mohgwyn Dynasty Mausoleum is a tomb - like everything in the underground these are not "new" movements but old things being given new life. The timing of receiving the Bewitching Branch implies Miquella's desire to grow a Haligtree was originated with the idealistic belief that if everyone was united in friendship under a benevolent leader then there would be no repeats of the bloody horrors of the past. The timing of the Law of Causality being received is illustrative of the futility of Miquella's plan. He suffered many blows to his spirits from repeatedly trying and failing in his plans and under those conditions it was only a matter of time before something would cause him to crack and lash out in retaliation.

But then we enter the DLC and I believe that these words of "bewitch" and "compel" are not used again. Leda and her companions are under Miquella's "charm" and Miquella's Great Rune has the power to resist "charms". Ansbach sought to break Miquella's "enchantment" over Mohg. Charm is a word that has been used many times in the talismans and "enchants" or "enchantment" are terms used multiple times to describe "imbuing a weapon with elemental power". In the network test there was an "Enchanted Knight" class which wore the Carian Knight armour set and was thus imbued with the power of the moon.

3. Mohg killed Miquella (figuratively) and Ansbach killed Miquella (literally)

So - is Mohg a weapon imbued with elemental power by Miquella? Only if Miquella is and always has been the Formless Mother who craves wounds. It destroys all purpose of having discreet characters to assume that every character is just somebody else in disguise so let's not go there. Miquella also has never been to the sewers - Miquella's lilies cannot be found there. Trying to argue that Miquella cultivated Mohg's insanity and fixation on blood and pain simply makes no logical or chronological sense. Another definition of "enchantment" is "a feeling of great pleasure and attraction, especially because something is beautiful". Attraction is a stronger word than the friendly affection that Miquella was attempting to foster - it is more closely related to desire or romantic love. Miquella wanted friendship for everyone and Mohg wanted Miquella like a beautiful thing to be possessed.

Working around the lies of omission, Ansbach saw Mohg wavering from his bloody dynastic ambitions and took it upon himself to assassinate Miquella before dying himself and encountering Miquella when they both found themselves in the sleep of death. It's a similar situation with Freyja - she didn't meet Miquella on the battlefield, she died and went to Valhalla. In death, any wound can be healed. The Shadowlands is a place where death washes up - everyone we meet in the DLC is no longer "ye dead who yet live" - they're just dead.

But Mohg is insane and as we are shown repeatedly the demigods don't die in natural ways. Godwyn's body took on a life of its own in death, Radahn's mind is rotted but his body keeps going, and etc. Mohg still wanted Miquella as a consort to be possessed and shared his bloody bedchamber but Miquella never responded. Probably because he was already well established in the Shadowlands through St. Trina residing there so his mind had somewhere to go and dissociate when he was helpless to fight back. Nobody wants their body to be possessed by demons, and that is exactly the imagery evoked when Mohg emerges from Miquella's blood. And demons do take residence in empty bodies in this game - we know this through Shabriri and Hyetta. This is not consent and this is not Miquella's manipulation - this is Mohg doing an incredibly vile and invasive act.

4. The cycle of violence

Despite their differences what Miquella and Mohg do both individually represent is that they are heads of cults. The cult of Miquella is soporific - he encourages stagnation of thought by instructing his followers to just believe in him and his dream and wait for the promised day. Miquella had an elaborate city constructed to give the appearance of action but actually had no real plan except to wait and hope for a miracle. The cult of Mohg is frenzied - he encourages pain and suffering to the point that it overwhelms any constructive thought. He sits in a crumbling ruin because his followers are too dulled by the pain to improve their surroundings.

When these two opposing forces combine they do not cancel each other out but instead create an aesthetically beautiful torment nexus. But what is the point of beauty if it is impossible to enjoy due to the suffering that built it? We already know what that looks like: it's Marika's Golden Order. The Shadow of the Erdtree is not just about Miquella, but about understanding Marika's motivation for becoming a god. A critical part of Marika's story is about the trauma that forged her. There are direct parallels being drawn between Miquella and Marika. Marika was traumatized by the cruelty of her people having their flesh melted together in pots, and in revenge became a god and exterminated the hornsent. Miquella was traumatized by being kidnapped and bathed in Mohg's Omen blood, and in revenge became a god and exterminated Mohg's personhood. Hornsent = Omen. Generational trauma is cyclical.

[horsegirlwithnoname]

like getting into spoiler territory here but

Marika in her trauma tried to make a better world and only made one equally authoritarian. It's hard to play through SOTE and not understand her rage and pain, just as it's hard to play through the main game and not understand the horror of the Golden Order. She is just as trapped in the cycle of violence as everybody else, depicted in an obvious crucifix pose with the Ring as the cross on which she is impaled. We forget that about the crucifix, it's something you get hammered to in execution.

Miquella's curse is that he is inchoate, incomplete, he will never grow older and his plans will always fail for the same reason: he is never allowed to finish anything. He knows this, and strives to become free of this by any means necessary, losing more and more of himself in the process, telling himself it's a painful sacrifice he must make to build a better world and apparently pushing down the understanding that by his curse he is doomed to fail and all he's done is manipulate and hurt people and also tremendously hurt himself.

Radahn is so obsessed with the past that he is literally holding the stars prisoner, the things we used to track the changing year for millenia. He learns gravity magic so he can keep riding his horse instead of like, just letting Leonard go live in a nice field and eat carrots, because that would mean admitting that things change and go away. His obsession with the martial glory of the past can't hide that the two times you meet him he's either a shambling ruin or a literal corpse, desperately trying to pretend everything is normal.

Mohg was compelled by Miquella to do a lot of extremely bad shit but it does seem like he was running a blood cult before that. It wasn't like he was hanging out running a petting zoo then he got zapped and suddenly he's bathing in human blood. Marika drove him to become an outcast, to become angry and resentful of the Golden Order, he's lashing out in pain but that's no comfort to the people he's lashing out against. He's an abused child who became an abuser, then fell prey to another's manipulations because like ... this whole thing is about people trapped in cycles of violence that are not initially their own creation but which they go on to re-create and enforce.

Trying to figure out who The Bad Guy is is pointless. They're all trapped in cycles of violence, they recreate the violence that made them, they are wounded and wounding, even those with hearts full of love can only make the world worse. Tragedies are never truly about heroes or villains, they're about victims.

I see so much Elden Ring discourse on here that's trying to identify who's THE GOOD GUY WHO DID NOTHING WRONG and who's THE IREDEEMABLE VILLAIN WHO MUST BE DESTROYED and I think y'all are failing to understand the themes of this game