#mike's arc isn't will or el

[gayofthefae]

Thinking again about just how MUCH "I didn't know what to say" gives us and how it can change the whole deal. Because it is the only line that explicitly tells us that he is, as of the time of saying this, still not capable of saying "I love you".

She told him directly in the moment. So he knew what SHE wanted him to say. So how, then, is it possible that he "didn't know what to say"? Unless...

Unless he's saying that telling her was always completely off the table.

Unless he's saying that he knew what she wanted to hear and he knew that he would under no conditions be saying that. "I didn't know what to say". That statement is much closer to "I didn't know how to say it" than "I didn't know why I couldn't say it".

He doesn't say that he doesn't know what would have fixed the situation. He says that he didn't know what to say.

Which means: they are not. the same.

In that moment, with stakes of emotion and heartbreak and not life and death, he would never have told her he loved her. Something in him considers that an awful thing to do. Breaking a commandment he's made to her as a friend before all else. Something in him says "Telling you I love you would hurt you more long-term than letting you believe that I don't." (hmm I wonder why. which possible commandment could that be)

In episodes 4 and 5 of season 4, he does not say "I should have told her" "I should have told her". He says "should I have told her anyways?" "But what else could I have done but what I did?"

And it's the very prioritization that contributes to his guilt now. OH.

THAT'S SEASON 4 FOR HIM:

He spends the season asking himself the question: if I knew she might die if I didn't say it, would I say it, knowing it would break her heart if she survives?

And then she might die if he doesn't say it. And he knows it. And this is the climax. The moment of decision. The "what would I have done if I'd known".

Now he knows the answer, I suppose.

[tender-emotional-music]

I need to do a whole post ranting about this, because it is so hilarious how people will see the leaks of byler always filming together and teaming up and say "it's just them on bikes! Byler isn't real!" or the alleged casting call for young byler + Jonathan and say "omg you delusional losers! There aren't going to be any romantic scenes between 8 year olds!"

Because surely they understand story structure and realise that El and Mike ending on ambiguous terms in s4 + Finn and Noah constantly filming together + Millie and Finn not filming together past the first two episodes + El apparently having a storyline with Hopper and Lucas/Erica/Max (just as the s4 finale foreshadowed!!) does indeed mean something?

I constantly see them refuse to place this information in the greater scope of the narrative and character arcs for s5, instead just interpreting them in isolation. We aren't excited about the flashbacks because we want to see romance between children; we're excited because it demonstrates that their early relationship is important enough to warrant showing on screen, and that whatever that scene establishes will be important to their current-day selves. The bike pics aren't significant because they're hanging out; they're significant because they suggest that they truly are teaming up in s5 and that this pairing will be important to the overall narrative (as is always the case when couples team up in the show). These things imply that the writers do take this plot seriously.

Of course, this doesn't CONFIRM byler, but as I've said before, the only place they can really take mlvn in s5 is them being a team, proving they did work through their issues in s4. But that does not seem to be happening, and yes, that does mean something. People will say that Will needs to move on and learn to be himself. If that were the case, he would not be paired up with Mike. He would be with someone/a group which enables him to foster his identity outside of Mike. Funnily enough, that does seem to be happening....with El.

[thefirstlioveyou]

i hate when mike's "romantic love" for el is adored and romanticized when it's really the most anxious and unhealthy form of attachment, but his healthy and secure love for will is just seen as platonic

mike with el:

"i'm scared one day you won't need me anymore."

"but what if she doesn't need me anymore?"

"i can't lose you."

"i can't lose you again."

"i don't know how to live without you." (this is devastating.)

given the circumstances mike was put with with el in s1, his statements of love is more of rooted from trauma rather than actual romantic love. he's constantly afraid of losing her the same way he did in the last episode of s1, especially since he blames himself for it for the way he treated her.

he also feels a sense of self worth from the concept of being with a girl - a girl as cool and superhero-like as el that.... but not because it's EL. that's the problem. this sense of worth comes from being NEEDED, and el NEEDED mike to protect her (at the time of s1). THAT'S what he takes interest about their relationship. mike can't even mention one thing he likes about her that isn't about her powers in his monologue. he can't even tell will one thing when he was venting.

even acknowledged by shawn levy, the duffers and finn, mike simply feels a sense of worth when he's helping/saving someone - that's not necessarily romantic because....

and then we have el's side of this. el had fallen into the same pattern as she did in the lab when it comes to needing someone to rely on. she loses her own self-worth when she's with mike, unable to really identify herself. her "romantic love" for mike roots in a very traumatic place. she didn't even consider him in that way before he kissed her. she saw him as a caregiver (and possible family) - this is why she clings so tightly to him, it's reminiscent of her trauma in that sense. but in s3 and s4, she realizes who she is without mike (or feeling controlled by a relationship)

el's whole arc is not needing to rely on someone anymore, which is contradictory to what mike wants. the puzzle pieces aren't fitting with them!!

mike with will:

"max, dustin, lucas - they're great but they're not you."

"i asked if you wanted to be my friends ... it was the best thing i ever did."

"if anyone knows how to defeat this thing, it's will." (mike trusts will even in a dangerous situation, whereas in s3 he's more anxious for el, despite losing them both before. why? because he felt a sense of responsibility for el, not will.)

"if we both go crazy, we'll go crazy together."

"i didn't say it." "you didn't have to."

what he tells will is often more positive, and never putting himself or others down in the process. there's more trust and security.

"but what about s2? wasn't he scared to lose him?" but he never felt loss of control that season. he never held him back from anything and even insisted on things that could've been dangerous, but there was trust. even comparing his monologue in s2 vs s4, there is a sense of calmness and confidence in his words. he doesn't blabber and just keeps his words short and to the point. there isn't dramatic music build up to intensify the scene. it's intimate and genuine, not a performance.

the whole "you didn't have to" part is SOO underrated. it just proves more of what i'm saying! mike is more secure with will and they simply just get one another, whereas mike and el do not!

he also still acknowledges his other friends and how valuable they are to him, while saying will is different to him. (AND this can be backed up, unlike the s4 monologue. we can see throughout the entire show that this is true, will stands out amongst the rest of his friends to him). one of the big problems mike had in s3 was forgetting friendships and his values for the sake of having a girlfriend.

it's also evidently clear how mike acts with el vs will is very different. mike never brings up his interests with el and instead tries to play cool, tries extra hard to be funny and impress her. (pizza box glasses, the horrendous airport fit, "i like- i like presents too," his weird talking/responding patterns with el at the airport/roller rink)

but the actual mike is nerdy. he's part of the av club. he's into science projects. he's into dnd. he's into figures. literally the moment mike tried showing her his figures she did NOT gaf LMAOO (i understand her priorities lied else where but still, it's a showcase of her lack of interest in mike's hobbies). but will knows these things and takes interest in all of them. will KNOWS mike more than el does.. of course he does, they've known each other since they were 5. you're lying to yourself if you believe mike and el know each other more - they don't even know themselves with each other.

and before i end this, i wanna add this one thing:

"but, if mike and el is platonic even if mike was protective, doesn't this mean that s2 byler was platonic too?" the act of caring for someone is what's platonic. there isn't anything necessarily romantic about it, that's true. but byler is more than just what happened in s1 or s2. byler's love doesn't root from their trauma with all that's going on. mike doesn't feel this connection to will because he went missing - it's love that's grown over time even before they encountered the upside down.

byler isn't real because mike cares about will's life. byler is real because mike separates his relationship with will from his friends, his intimate eye contact, his physical contact, his gentleness, his attentive behavior to will's own behavior/absence, him literally thinking meeting will was the best thing he's ever done.

and mike is still needed by someone the way he wants. will needs him, and not for any reasons related to trauma... simply because will sees the good in mike and who he really is as a person and as a whole. mike brings the best out of will and inspires him.

their love starts from simply knowing and getting each other, whereas mike and el's only begins from unhealthy attachment and trauma on either side. THAT'S the difference. it's nothing more than mike needing to save someone.

anyway i just wanted to point out what i noticed between his dialogue w each person! it's very tough seeing what he says to el viewed as peak romance by certain people, watching his trauma being overlooked for the sake another heterosexual romance. but when he showcases actual secure behavior with another person that happens to be a gay character, they're just friends... not gay at all.

[teambyler]

THIS was the scene that should've repaired M*leven in s4 (Byler analysis)

In 4x8 ("Papa"), Mike's GIRLFRIEND was being pursued by a wing of the government that wanted her dead. He saw her ALMOST DIE to an army helicopter. El, after days of being scared and alone, saw that her BOYFRIEND DOES love her: he searched for her across the country and came to RESCUE her.

Isn't THIS the moment, IF Mileven were endgame, where the arc "does he really love me" should have been resolved? With a romantic moment, and a kiss?

Instead, Mike and El reunite like dear friends. El and Will's hug was more passionate.

This should have been the ultimate romantic moment for Mileven.

Instead, the writers had the GALL to insert RIGHT HERE a hint of a future romance...

... and they got away with it! (With most viewers.)

This is foreshadowing 101, baby.

Mike and El had just gone through the kind of experience you see in TV and movies, where a romantic couple have a falling-out, and they're supposed to realize that they truly and desperately need and can't live without each other. One has a Love Epiphany, and it might culminate in a Race for Your Love. (Links are to TV Tropes)

In these other stories, saying "I love you" is usually cheesy, trite, and unnecessary. They end with a KISS.

Like the Duffers have done before, they built up a trope only to subvert it. Here, the romantic couple were supposed to realize their feelings and have a bond that was stronger than ever.

Instead, that DOESN'T happen, and they drop a hint that might as well have been a Quest Marker above Will's head to show where the story's headed.

-teambyler

[shinpikurage]

Not shipping Mileven isn't about Byler, it's about how bad the ship is

And I don't mean in a way like, "I don't like these characters together", because I do, wish they had worked out, but they just don't

Their kisses are awkward, they have 0 chemistry, Mike has to feel like he's saving her or he feels useless (in consequence, he puts her in a cage), Eleven lies to him, Mike lies to her, their friends don't even like them together!

They have almost no soft scenes like other ships, they are either fighting, reconsiling or making out

When they're away from eachother they are able to grow as people, only when they are separated they can have their arcs, and gosh, only when they are away from each other they can have fun!

El wants to be loved, to feel like she's not a monster

Mike wants to be needed and to perform

It's basically impossible to ship them

[emblazons]

forewarning: this is the longest "this is mike's arc and I'm tired of denying it" breakdown i've done in a min (it's def about gay mike bar none so. skip if you want)

I keep reading posts about "where Mike is with his feelings for Will" all across the dash now, and...while I get the idea of wanting a Mike as devastated by not hearing from Will as Will was because Mike's aware he has romantic feelings, *Arya Stark Voice* that's not him?

In the show, Mike Wheeler wears his heart on his sleeve. He is prone to emotionality and doesn't really track his feelings within himself the way Will does—is "less interior," for a lack of a better phrase, which both plays dramatically into how things are playing out with both El and Will and makes it (dare I say it) out of character to believe he's as "hurt by his own hope" as Will is when it comes to mutual feelings.

Let me see if I can explain.

First: I think it's important to keep in mind that, at least with Mike, you get someone who will subconsciously act on "inner truths" before he even realizes they're true about him—and someone who will behave according to whatever external reality deems "correct" until he realizes 1) its bullshit or 2) its not true for him personally. We see this season over season:

First with how he willfully breaks rank with authority (his parents, the police, even the community) first to find Will and then again breaks rank with even his friends to protect Eleven in season 1

Then in S2 when he throws "proper" behavior to the wind (which is even slightly acknowledged in Will's 'don't tell the others' / 'crazy together) to be there for + lowkey confess the depth of his feelings to Will (everyone say thank you shed scene)

Again (though slightly different) in S3, with how there's this bubbling thing being gay he doesn't realize has started to manifest itself—cue that comment the duffer's made forever ago about S3 being about "the monster of puberty," aka when people start to understand their own attractions—until the very end of the season with how he realizes he's not attracted to El

And finally in S4, when he consciouslly knows for a fact he's not into El and tries to hide it—quite poorly, because, as I said, he can only abide a "lie" when he doesn't realize it is one—but hasn't yet realized that the thing bubbling up inside him THIS season (that keeps slipping out without him realizing it) is his attraction to/romantic feelings for Will.

In Season 4 especially, its easy to track how this "I can lie...until I know it is one" affects Mike's romantic prospects; we see plainly that his lying about his feelings to El during the monologue was a failure because the power of Mike's whole character is rooted in the importance of him being true to himself and his heart. Season over season, we've seen that Mike has to be honest with people once he knows what he feels in order for his leadership to be effective—and by S4, he knows he doesn't love El romantically (+ has known for a HOT minute, aka since his little S3 post-kiss revelation)—which is why he tries to skirt around the issue with that "I care for you so much" rather than lie to El's face about his lack of romantic feelings.

Basically: once Mike consciously knows something is not right in either the world or inside himself, he has to act on it...or suffer the consequences of his lack of honesty. But then....what does that have to do with him not being the one "not trying to be in love" with Will?

Despite the fandom urge to deny it even in the wake of The Duffers and Finn Wolfhard themselves telling them it's true: Mike being oblivious to his own feelings, or at least consciously unaware, of his own romantic feelings for Will is a solid amount of what's driving his character's growth right now. Mike "friends don't lie" Wheeler has spent the entirety of this show trying to be as honest as possible with the people around him, and we've clearly seen as of S4 what happens when he isn't honest—the world (quite literally) falls apart.

When it comes to his romantic arc especially, it's important to remember this is true, because it means, through logical deduction, that Mike isn't hiding the fact that he has feelings for Will throughout season 4—he's hiding the fact that he's not in love with his girlfriend the way he's supposed to be, which both plays into the whole forced conforming through-line of the season and explains the crux of his narrative even as we are primarily shown that experience through Will's eyes—unreliable as they are. The thing leaking out of Mike without his knowledge is the fact that he likes boys—but the thing he's consciously hiding and lying about is the fact that he doesn't like girls the way he knows he's supposed to.

Now: does that mean he doesn't have a million subconscious responses to things regarding Will—one's rooted both in his attraction to men and his friendly/romantic/evolving feelings for him? Absolutely not. Half of what drives Mike's S4 narrative was built into his wordless/subconscious actions throughout S3, from the way we see him look disgusted with girls when they're mentioned, the way he take's El's hands off him when she tries to kiss him, and even the way he looks conflicted by her kiss at the very end of the season. Just because Mike is consciously unaware that something is happening to him doesn't mean the thing isn't happening—it just means that Mike himself is oblivious to it.

Even so: Mike being oblivious to the fact that he's attracted to men/in love with Will means he isn't consciously trying to keep himself away from Will—which is clear, if you pay attention to every moment before he gets guilted into remembering he has a GF by Argyle.

Basically, the crux of Mike's own experience with his problems is—

"I don't love El the way I'm supposed to, and it's going to cause problems if I can't do that for everyone I care for,"

not

"I am trying to hide my feelings for boys/Will and have to pretend they aren't there to be normal."

—which is a subtle but critical distinction in understanding both where he is by the end of S4 and where he's headed moving into S5.

Now: I get that it's more fun to imagine a Mike fighting his feelings for Will consciously throughout S4, but....that's Will's story and experience of his feelings, not Mike's. Mike is fighting with his lack of attraction to women more than his attraction to men/Will—which is also why you see it slip out so much despite the time/era/what he knows of what happens to gay men in Hawkins.

If Mike knew he loved Will/boys consciously, he'd be much more afraid of himself and Will than he is even as of the last shot of S4—but he's not, which is shockingly telling if you consider how he already knows what he doesn't feel for Eleven. Once he does know what he feels—his "a-ha" moment about liking Will, the same as his consciously realizing he didn't love El "like that" as of end of S3—it will be impossible for him not to address it in himself...and finally be honest/undo the damage of The Lie he told El (he loved her) during the monologue.

That's the (canonical) trajectory of Mike "The Heart" Wheeler—and why him being oblivious to his feelings for Will, not just "secretly longing without wanting to indulge hope he might have the boy he loves" the way Will is experiencing moving into S5. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[glisten-inthedark]

You wanna know what gives me confidence for Byler? The show.

That's it.

Because I promise you, if you watch the show objectively everything is there. You don't even have to look at camera angles, lighting, or signs that point towards closets, the information you need is there.

And it isn't even shit people made up (****** I'm looking at you, even though I ship it). It's there, I fucking saw it before even shipping it.

And at first, I assumed I was seeing shit. To be honest I mostly brushed it off, but when we found out that Will was gay and in love with Mike, it clicked.

My favorite mental exercise is: If Will was a girl, how would you perceive their scenes? All you have to do it's switch up their genders and it's not even up for debate because we all know everyone would eat that shit up.

I mean, a boy relentlessly looks for a girl in the woods, stays by this girl' side, tells her they'll go crazy together while touching her hand, tells her that asking her to be his his friend was the best thing he's ever done, fights with her but actually tries to apologize, then we find that said girl has been in love with her friend but it's lying so that this friend could be happy. Tell me that if this was the case there wouldn't be like 30000 fics of that couple on Ao3 and millions of people begging the showrunners to make them canon? Tell me, I fucking dare you.

And at this point I'm like a broken record but I am going to repeat myself.

WILL BYERS BEING IN LOVE WITH MIKE WHEELER does not make a difference to the plot. It doesn't.

He could have been gay and not be in love. If the life lesson was: "Will has to learn to accept himself as gay, and to love himself and understand he isn't a mistake" they could've done without the love. They could've given him exploring that part of himself in California, they could've presented another gay character that taught him that.

They could've fixed El and Mike's relationship without Will's love. We've seen them doing it before. Will could've helped by just being Mike's friend.

So can we ask ourselves this itsy bitsy question: Why make Will in love with Mike in the first place? Why make him say not once, but twice, that he and Mike could play DnD together for the rest of their lives which, if you're not good at subtext, means he sees himself with Mike by his side as long as he lives if all they're going to do is bring him more misery?

Because I'm going to be honest, with the way they wrote this love Will has, they literally didn't gave themselves a easy way out. They made sure we knew it was real, it was unconditional and that it would never change. We didn't make it up, they gave us that information with their writing.

So again, ask yourselves why that is.

Because whatever non Byler explanation I try to come up with doesn't make sense.

Queerbaiting? More like Bylerbaiting at this point considering Will is gay and again, he could've been in love with anyone else or not be a queer character experiencing love at all.

Make Mil*even stronger? It literally did the opposite, the ship is going down in flames and we all know it. Their relationship isn't healthy, El's arc isn't about romantic love and the painting which was the only reason Mike proclaimed the romantic love he doesn't feel literally came from Will.

So... Again. Why?

[jaegerisim]

Vent post y'all are gonna hate me for.

I viscerally hate how the Duffers treat most of their non white or queer characters and I hate even more viscerally, how y'all big byler blogs in your circle jerk of other 5 big byler blogs casually like to ignore many red flags the show has.

Y'all like to say: "tHe DufFeRs ArE gReAt WrIteRs" and it's like girl, who are you lying to??? They aren't top shit writers at all. The Duffers are pretty mid imo. Yeah, they run a good show that's fun to watch and theorize abt , but that doesn't mean they're good writers cuz they're not.

1. they completely side lined Will during s3 for the sake of their straight romances: lumax, jancy, mlvn, duzie and partly stobin (even if stobin wasn't endgame, thankfully, Steve's intentions were clearly wanting to date Robin and they gave it a lot of screen time). Will was sidelined bc he didn't fit the straight romance plotline bc they planned to make him gay or whatever. Now in s4 Will and his feelings have been used as mlvn toilet paper. Yes, we like to say this is build up for byler but canonically, Will's feelings have been used to clean the shit mlvn leaves behind.

2. Billy was sympathized a lot during the last 2 seasons. They gave him the sad backstoryTM in order for ppl to feel sorry for him. Billy's backstory is literally Jonathan's but whatever.

3. El's anger issues are constantly girlboss-ified. They down play her bullying situation and literally just use it for El to be a ''girlboss" without realizing how triggering that is. As someone who has lived bullying, seeing it be ignored by canon and fanon is super sad. The whole Rink-O' Mania experience must have been so traumatizing for her yet, everyone absolutely forgets abt it 🤷🏻‍♀️

4. Robin, Erica and Argyle are stereotypical characters. Robin is the quirky lesbian with social anxiety, Erica is the badass black woman and Argyle is the Latino stoner that sells weed to white kids and works as a pizza delivery guy.

5. Altho Argyle and Eddie both do drugs, (Eddie actually sells K-12 to a minor and nobody batted an eye. He has a huge fan base). Eddie is held in a pedestal bc "poor thing 🥺 he lives in a trailer with his uncle 🥺". Tell me a single fact you know abt Argyle that isn't "he smokes weed", "he is Jonathan's only friend", "drives a van" and "he works at a pizzeria". Exactly, Eddie is given a useless backstory and Argyle isn't.

6. Dustin stopped being important to the plot sometime around s2 and s3. He is only there to curse and be mildly funny. My guy needs to hangout with ppl his age cuz he only hangs out with seniors.

7. El needs to stop having so much "I'M THAT BITCH" screentime like I need in s5 for El's arc to not just be her becoming more powerful and falling in love with Mike. I need the Duffers to explore her trauma and problems.

8. Angela should have been run over by the van.

9. Patrick should have been given a backstory that isn't the basic "strict black parents that hit their kids cuz they are a disgrace". Patrick's backstory is actually racist af, fight w the wall.

10. As Lex already said, they didn't trigger tag the ep where Jason and his friends assault Lucas and Erica. Like wtf? Why was that necessary? Why did I have to see a black boy being held at gunpoint by some white guy?? Was it relevant to the plot?? I don't think so. And then I've got to see ppl online be like "Jason wasn't that bad. He was just mourning" like bitch you can stfu. This is what happens when you make the racist assholes conventionally attractive.

Also the fact that Lucas's arc is fulfilled by him fist-fighting Jason and "embracing his weirdness" aka accepting he is black. His arc was not fulfilled at all cuz that ending spoke so loud to me. It showed how little empathy ppl have towards the struggles poc ppl living in the Midwest have. Y'all circle jerks can only see racism when it's super obvious.

Furthermore, parents complained when ST showed "an excessive amount of smoking" yet nobody batted an eye when Billy tried to run over Lucas, when Erica (an 11 y.o ffs) was chased by white kids or when Lucas was held at gunpoint by Jason.

All of this happened while they focused on Max's guilt and mourning that, yeah, are important but certainly not less important than racism!!!

11. In s3, they gave us that whole Nancy vs The Bigots arc that was honestly just triggering and useless. It didn't help Nancy's character at all, quite the opposite it put unnecessary angst.

12. Lonnie being presented as an abuser just for him to never be spoken of again. Can we please get to explore the trauma he left the Byers's with?

13. The fact that both queer relationships are considered "sloppy seconds" is extremely sad. Both Vickie and Mike are rebounding from their failed relationship with Robin and Will. These 2 ships have caused more commotion than Jancy and Jopper together! (These last ships are technically sloppy seconds too but everybody forgets that. Shocker!!)

14. Last but not least, ppl blame Argyle for being the one to get Jonathan into smoking weed as if Jonathan probably wasn't the one looking for it. Let me tell you, that you only find weed if you look for it.

[obsessionatthemoment]

One of the great things about Stranger Things is the writers found the perfect balance between plot and character. Sure, some characters are occasionally neglected, but that isn't because the focus on the plot is too strong, it's because the cast of characters is too large, and they keep introducing more (which is frustrating at times). Anyway, my point of this is when people say "Will isn't plot significant." Or "there won't be time for Byler in season 5." I get so frustrated, because: first of all, Will's character is the catalyst for so many things happening in the show happening, and I would argue him and El are the MOST plot significant characters. And second of all, character relationships are part of the plot, and part of a character's arc. They had time to have Lumax break up, and then strengthen their relationship in season 4. They had time for Jopper to finally get together. They had time to build tension between Mike and El. All of that was happening simultaneously with the plot, and was, in fact, relevant to the plot. There is time for Byler, and Byler is happening, whether you like it or not. Will is an important character. I am sick of people's poorly thought out excuses when they don't like a character or a ship.

[demi-god77]

Saw byler doubt on my tl and I won't have it, so I'm here to try and ease your doubts @lucystark12

(English isn't my first language and I'm currently running on zero hours of sleep. This might be a bit incoherent)

BYLER AND CHARACTER ARCS

First of all, you have to think of this in context to El's character arc as well!

Her arc has always been centered around found family and her own sense of self (the things she lacked for most of her life while she was in the lab, especially since her entire identity was reduced to a number.)

Romantic love (ending the show in a relationship with Mike) would not be beneficial for her arc, as it is not something she lacked prior, she didn't even know what a boyfriend IS when she escaped from the lab. It also sets her back on her path of self discovery (+ she is shown to learn the most about herself when she and Mike are apart).

In an arc about found family, self discovery and independence, forcing her into a relationship that actively separates her from said found family and creates conflict (with Hopper and with the rest of their group), that also doesn't let her figure out who she is, what her interests are and overall stuns her self discovery and independence, would make zero sense. It would not be a progression for her character at all. Especially for someone that has been controlled by others (and men specifically) her entire life.

~~~

About Will now, if his arc was actually about moving on, there was absolutely no reason to make him in love with Mike. All of their conflicts COULD be purely platonic, if their purpose was to signify that he needs to move on/grow up. But they weren't. There would be no reason to make him in love with Mike, he arguably wouldn't even have to be gay for this arc. And yet, his sexuality is mentioned even prior to s1, in the pilot script -clearly important for his character. Him moving on from those feelings would not be beneficial for his arc either, especially since he has already tried to. He has tried to hide from the world, he has tried to repress his feelings and it didn't work out. They even straight up told us he's not able to move on ("[I] need you and [I] always will")

Furthermore, he already believes that his feelings will not be reciprocated, that he needs to let go and that he will never experience a romantic relationship, will never find love. To have him be right does not make for a good story. It sets his storyline back to square one. Him coming into his own and confronting his trauma is definitely a part of his arc, no doubt about that. Moving on from his feelings however, giving up on a love he never let himself believe he could have in the first place, is not.

~~~~

Lastly, Mike himself. I honestly don't really think he has that much of a communication issue. His communication skills are of course not great, they are pretty bad yes, and he obviously struggles with verbally explaining his feelings, but he shows his love through actions and not words. That's something that has been shown since s1 and that's always been how he communicates his emotions. Through actions.

But even so, he has been shown to productively communicate using his OWN words and his OWN feelings before, the shed scene in s2 being a prime example of that (arguably the bedroom scene in S4 as well). His parents' main issue with their relationship is not that they don't communicate imo, it's that they never really loved eachother (and that also ties in to Nancy and her relationship with Steve).

Another thing:

Mike needs to be needed, that's when he feels useful, that's when he feels loved. El is coming into her own, becoming independent, realizing she doesn't need to depend on others, on him. But Will in his monologue confessed that he always will need him, something that will never change.

Moreover, if his arc was truly about learning to communicate effectively, I don't think they would put such emphasis on his insecurities, thinking of himself as inferior and trying to conform. (Also, forcing a confession, especially one based on someone else's feelings would be a horrible writing choice in an arc about self expression.)

Mike actively tries to push aside his nerdy interests and the things he enjoys (who he is) while in the relationship, in order to appear cooler, mature, normal. Pretend he's not himself. THAT is something he gets from his parents. And THAT is not something attributed to bad communication skills, but forced conformity.

And after all, forced conformity is killing the kids.

[gayofthefae]

The idea that El, at its core concept - no semantics, would prioritize her boyfriend over her family is a fundamental misunderstanding of her arc.

She won't be choosing in the first place but if she was going to Will is literally her BROTHER. Idc if she's known Mike longer that mf lives with her, you thinks she's gonna wreck her FAMILY? Her HOUSEHOLD??? Threaten her HOME LIFE????!!!

[miwiheroes]

Mike and El's conflict is not just about him not being able to say 'I love you.'

It's about the fact they just don't understand each other anymore. Even if he was truthful about loving her in the end, it doesn't matter. Their relationship's building blocks are still broken. Here's why:

"I guess I just don't really understand."

"I mean, you've seen it, I've been bullied my entire life."

"I know what it's like."

"I understand"

"Just please don't tell the others okay? They won't understand."

"Eleven would. She always did."

"No. You don't."

"What don't I understand?"

"I am different." "You think I'm a monster too."

I really don't think anyone truly realises what the Mike and El fight in season 4 does to their relationship. Yes, it is basically all about how El tells Mike that he isn't loving her in the way that she needs, and that Mike just thinks of her as his superhero rather than a human being. However, this is a total break down in their relationship as a whole.

Their whole relationship was built in season 1 and 2 on a certain type of shared trauma, attachment to the person who gave you care, fascination and most of all, understanding. Mike was attached to her in season 2 and season 1 and had the first inkling that he might have liked her because he thought, 'finally someone who understands me'.

That understanding is gone. I repeat, it is gone. In this scene, with the broken diorama, it is established that the fundamental building blocks of their relationship too, are broken.

Many people think that by the end of season 4, Milkvan is completely fixed. Because Mike said 'I love you' and y'know what, let's say he meant everything he said! What if he did mean that he loved her? (even though that's not the case but walk with me here).

That still doesn't resolve everything.

Wait. But that was their only problem, right? That was all their argument was about, right?

Wrong. Their argument was also about El not understanding Mike, Mike not understanding El. And this part isn't fixed. Mike still calls her a superhero in his speech even if he is truthful, he still makes her feel like she's not a human being.

But:

"You make [me] feel like [I'm] not a mistake at all. Like [I'm] better for being different. And that gives [me] the courage to fight on."

Mike likes the words that Will says, and if he believes the lies that he's telling him, then that means he also likes having that sense of understanding between him and El. But in reality, it's not there. He feels warmth for feeling like he's being understood/ he understands someone else, but it's not El. It's Will.

"I am different. I do not belong." vs. "You make [me] feel like [I'm] better for being different."

When Mike finds out that it's not El that he makes feel like she's not a mistake, and that it's actually Will, he's gonna have a lot of questioning to do. Because, as Finn said:

"There's probably a mutual understanding and acceptance there, I think." (in relation to someone asking about mike's feelings here)

Mike will find that understanding he craves so much in a relationship. Will already believes that Mike understands him and makes him feel like he's not a mistake. Mike will find that understanding with Will, because it's mutual.

Uh so yeah, this is truly why I think for Mike's arc and El's arc, it makes no sense for them to be endgame, because they simply don't understand each other. But it's not anyone's fault.

[teambyler]

CONFIRMED: Will will be tormented and central to the story again in s5

From the new s5 video, Will walking toward the camera is an explicit callback to s2. This isn't just some tingling in the neck: he is being DRAWN IN by something ONLY HE SEES. Just like Crissy and Fred in s4. We can safely say Will is going to be a target of Vecna or the Upside Down in s5:

And we now have a specific shot of what looks like Will ARRIVING in the Upside Down from s1. This is the biggest clue we'll get flashbacks to his time in the Upside Down. His time there WILL be central to s5's story: just like El's memories of the lab were key to unraveling the mysteries of s4, Will's memories might unravel the origins of the Upside Down (remember that time in the UD froze to the day Will was abducted!)

And in this shot it looks like Will's holding a pointer. He and Joyce are probably making a presentation about their experience in s1 using the overhead projector, with Jonathan's help (oh and more of the Byers Family working together YAY!):

GIF credit to @mikesbasementbeets

So it's shaping up to be a Will-centric season! They have said they will return to s1 themes. Will being in danger was central to s1 and it's coming back.

Aaaand the Painting Lie hasn't been resolved. Mike will have to come to terms with that revelation. And Will's "emotional arc" will be central to the season:

Aaand Mike and Will are joined together at the hip this season:

I'm so excited!

-teambyler

[doyoulikedem]

"el will be heartbroken if mileven breaks up!" this, "el loves mike and mike would never hurt her!" that.

have we considered that mike already hurt el with all of his letters and distance and absence whilst she was in california (he doesn't need her, after all, and i think that maybe he just isn't accustomed to her being around in the first place, never really having time to, not properly, and instead.. *checks notes* spends all of that time missing will and participating in things that would have reminded him of will and realising that hawkins wasn’t the same without him and that he was spending too much time with el and lost will or something?), and el was already under the impression that he didn't love her anymore, (even calling him out for it, almost phrasing it like she wanted confirmation, not like she was asking a question- see “but you don’t.. you don’t love me anymore?” except the question mark is also more “but you don’t.. you don’t love me anymore.”,) and that el thought that it was "over" already?

she hurt, she mourned the loss of a boyfriend, and cried like the people in the movies she used to watch during the "break up period", but she took some time away from mike - and everyone else - , came into herself just a little bit more, and got over it, mostly. she isn't shown as thinking about mike once during their time apart post-argument. the only part of the hurt that we see having remained in the aftermath is the anger and avoidance of mike, like he avoided her (and will?).

..at this point trying to hold onto milkvan’s relationship is just hurting both of them (and el isn't even the one trying to cling to the concept. *flashbacks to her describing mike as her first boyfriend 👀*).

with the above in mind, i am headcanoning that el had been accepting of the situation by the time they all reunited and would have been able to move past it until a later date, maybe until after the world stopped ending and they (mike and el) could both talk, until the ily monologue happened, and mike saying he loved her then just felt like bullets on skin because she'd already moved on and began her independence arc... maybe even realised that she didn't love him (anymore) either. he was just too late.

but picture it. el, finally getting time to herself without mike, and for some strange reason coming to the conclusion that he might not be in love with her, when she starts paying more attention to his actions without the distraction of him all over her all the time, and with each letter "from mike" growing more suspicious and realising/thinking he doesn't love her, getting continuously more worried, and then getting enough confirmation from the one day she spent with him to feel justified in her concerns and call him out for it.

almost immediately after said argument she then left a *badass* goodbye note to mike, in which i just wanted to point out the usage of "superhero", because i think that's interesting to me. if she was saying it like "so you could love me again", first of all that's heart-breaking and unhealthy, and secondly then why would she sign it "from el" rather than "love", making an obvious callback to how mike was hurting her and making her think he didn’t love her, mike then not giving any good explanations for mentioned behaviour.

mike bringing up el being a superhero repeatedly afterwards, and highlighting it again in his monologue almost makes me think that her being a "superhero" is more personal to her then mike - her powers should not be there so that mike can love her, and him saying "you're my superhero" in the monologue was only salt in the wound for her, reinstituting that he thought that was the most awesome part about her and what made her loveable or “out of his league” or whatever. (another reason why i love byler- mike doesn’t see will as a superhero, but as a best friend first and foremost, and therefore the love he feels for him is pure, and not an emotional attachment to a glorified ideology in his mind, whereas mileven were barely friends, barely acquaintances, before they kissed.)

the "you're my superhero" thing is also interesting, because finn has stated that this was improv, the duffers having told him to do whatever he wanted during the monologue (😭✋) and that he was "very proud" of this line. meaning he's either unaware of the toxidity of mileven, or he's proud of this line because it adds something more, another detail/relevant callback. and i would be surprised if he doesn't know about mileven's issues, seeing as when asked about byler he stated that he thinks will's love for mike is "beautiful", and i don't feel like you would say that without giving it time and consideration and actually thinking about the situation.

but anyways, back to the point i was making. i feel like it showed mike was yet to realise what he was doing, and that he was going around in circles, not making any obvious developments in his thought processes and unable to tell el anything new, apart from rewording their argument (and mixing in some of eddie's speech about recruiting new dnd players from earlier on in the season, not that el would know) but adding in that he loves her, because she had plainly told him that was what she had wanted. he probably wouldn't have even realised or thought to say so otherwise.

now, lets just stop for a moment. if eddie's "i love you, man" to dustin was meant platonically (which it almost certainly was, because urm obviously,) then who's to say that this one any different? mike is often shown as mirroring eddie throughout this season, even in this speech (as mentioned above).

even by itself, the point still stands that this “i love you” could/can be taken in a platonic way, and despite what else you can say, will was IN the shot of mike's first 'i love you' that he’s said to el's face (although realistically it still wasn't very properly to her face,), and had a literal hand on his back, saying to him that "you have to keep going, you're the heart, mike!" when mike.. looked at him for reassurance halfway through, god. (and el probably heard it.)

(also quickly acknowledging the concept of "you have to keep going, i need to hear you say it so i have confirmation that you will always love her and never me and therefore can force myself to try to move on" from wills pov here.)

and alright, so, in conclusion to this point, i think that el was driven to fight back against vecna by mike's 'i love you' in this scene, but out of strong feelings of sadness and anger rather than love and reassurance (neither of which the monologue truly offered, when taken into further consideration. it's just a very desperate, grasping-at-straws sort of confession. and not even like an emotional, angsty, clinging to her, "you've GOT to hold on, el !!!!" + sobbing into her chest, holding her in his arms, inconsolable desperate that we see with lumax. just a desperate last-ditch attempt of communicating his apparent "feelings").

anyways. just some ily monologue thoughts.. (not sure if this makes any sense at all, it’s sort of everywhere, but. idk. thought i might as well share.. <33) remember: mileven is unhealthy, will is not a homewrecker, but the actual reason the "i love you monologue" is a monologue and includes and "i love you" in it, and byler endgame most hopefully. please duffers. istg.

[bugsbenefit]

genuinely still baffled by the "they don't need to address Mike's sexuality, all that matters is that he's in love with Will" crowd. especially when people say it who claim to care about Mike's character (when you could also just say you don't really care for that part of the show, which would be fine, no one cares about all characters/arcs)

because Surely you realize how him being gay or bi would change his entire character, right. whether he's attracted to girls or not would change the way all his actions up until now are to be interpreted. not even making a statement on his sexuality here, this is generally speaking

if he was actually attracted to El you'd have to address when and why he suddenly stopped loving El since in fiction "it just happened" isn't usually a satisfying answer to breaking a multi season couple up. Why is Will it for him? he's been acting weird for ages so when did he realize? and what made it click he fell out of love with El for good? you'd have to give some explanation for why he was able to proclaim his love for El accidentally in s3 and then fail to do it in the same season while looking uncomfortable with kissing her and so on since his pov was so majorly withheld

if he's not attracted to girls his arc in s5 needs to focus more on comphet and how dating El affected him/why he felt he couldn't break up with her/homophobic attitude in his surrounding slash Hawkins. or the idea of platonic and romantic love in general. there would be no how he got from point A(El) to point B(Will), like what the focus of a bi!Mike s5 arc would have to be on to explain what happened, but a focus on how he ended up at point A in the first place and why he was stuck there/how it affected him

and even core moments of the series would have entirely different meanings depending on if he's attracted to girls. "it's not my fault you don't like girls" being a peak example. if he's gay it's easy to explain it with projection. if he IS attracted to girls though it would read as a much more intentional (even if blurted out) act of homophobia, since it would be him pointing something out that Will genuinely does (not liking being around girls) but he himself can't relate to

and that's all just the surface level differences. Mike being attracted to girls or not being attracted to girls would give his arc an entirely different focus in s5. AS WELL as make his past actions have entirely different meanings. the idea that "it doesn't matter for his character" is so insanely wrong it's wild how many people confidently peddle it

[glisten-inthedark]

If Byler isn't endgame, then why did the writers made Will fall in love with Mike?

Genuinely.

What is the purpose of that? Couldn't Will be canonically gay and not be in love with his friend?

Couldn't he find himself in California, find some nice boy he could be in a relationship with, couldn't he tell his friends he is gay and find acceptance?

If their goal is that Mike accepts Will this could be done without Will's feelings.

If their goal is that Will accepts himself and grows into himself this could also be done without Will's feelings.

If they wanted to fix Mike and El's relationship they didn't even needed to break it in the first place, and if they wanted it fixed it could be done without Will's feelings.

If they wanted Will to learn to love himself this could be done without his feelings.

Will' feelings were not necessary to anything, they didn't add anything to the plot nor were they fundamental to the overall arc.

So they create this feelings, they force us to feel sorry for Will, they spend days shooting their scenes only for it to not amount to anything.

Only for, at the end, Will to be rejected, to have his heart broken, to be more miserable, to have his core belief that he is wrong and the he'll never be loved and particularly that he'll never be loved by who he wants to love him.

Or only for Will not to say anything?

Then why is he in love in the first freaking place?