#mike's arc isn't will or el

[gayofthefae]

Thinking again about just how MUCH "I didn't know what to say" gives us and how it can change the whole deal. Because it is the only line that explicitly tells us that he is, as of the time of saying this, still not capable of saying "I love you".

She told him directly in the moment. So he knew what SHE wanted him to say. So how, then, is it possible that he "didn't know what to say"? Unless...

Unless he's saying that telling her was always completely off the table.

Unless he's saying that he knew what she wanted to hear and he knew that he would under no conditions be saying that. "I didn't know what to say". That statement is much closer to "I didn't know how to say it" than "I didn't know why I couldn't say it".

He doesn't say that he doesn't know what would have fixed the situation. He says that he didn't know what to say.

Which means: they are not. the same.

In that moment, with stakes of emotion and heartbreak and not life and death, he would never have told her he loved her. Something in him considers that an awful thing to do. Breaking a commandment he's made to her as a friend before all else. Something in him says "Telling you I love you would hurt you more long-term than letting you believe that I don't." (hmm I wonder why. which possible commandment could that be)

In episodes 4 and 5 of season 4, he does not say "I should have told her" "I should have told her". He says "should I have told her anyways?" "But what else could I have done but what I did?"

And it's the very prioritization that contributes to his guilt now. OH.

THAT'S SEASON 4 FOR HIM:

He spends the season asking himself the question: if I knew she might die if I didn't say it, would I say it, knowing it would break her heart if she survives?

And then she might die if he doesn't say it. And he knows it. And this is the climax. The moment of decision. The "what would I have done if I'd known".

Now he knows the answer, I suppose.

[teambyler]

The Strange Postponement of Mike and Will's relationship

If Mike and Will had remained as close as they were in Season 2 in the subsequent seasons, the "are they gay?" rumors absolutely would have spread among the General Audience, as they entered their official teen/dating/sexual awakening years.

There have been peculiar writing choices that seem to have no other explanation but to postpone romantic rumors about these two.

The show does its damnedest to keep these best-friends-since-kindergarten apart once they enter puberty. The only interaction that possibly hints at romance in Season 3 is their virtual double date with Lumax where Mike is concerned for Will's well-being one time. This was necessary to reestablish their "good friendness" at the start of the season to set-up their breakup during the Rain Fight.

Then, of course, the Rain Fight happens. Mike says "It's not my fault you don't like girls." They effectively "break up."

But then there is the strange, interesting choice that there is never a resolution of the Rain Fight. The apology for ignoring Will's D&D game comes from Lucas instead of Mike:

Will had his blow-up with MIKE, not Lucas! And we know that Mike absolutely was DRIVEN to apologize to Will, but we don't see it. Maybe he actually did, but it was offscreen. But why not have it ON screen? Why not clear the air on whether Mike thought Will was gay and was being homophobic to Will? Why not clarify THEN that Mike is a straight ally who supports his gay best friend, setting things up for Will to have a coming-out arc where he finds a love interest who is not Mike?

Instead, the writers made sure they had NO conversations for nearly all the rest of the season. They made sure Mike was focused on trying to repair things with El and blurting out "I love her." These two things together also kept the Gay Rumors(TM) in check.

Season 4 then dramatizes how they'd GROWN APART -- specifically, how they don't seem to have stayed in touch and Mike seems to be ignoring Will.

What a strange thing for the writers to do! Mike and Will had been on good terms. That's because it was the start-of-season set-up for an ARC where they become close again.

Alright, so they soon repair things. But for what?

The Will Counseling Hour:

They literally have no conversations with each other where Will isn't comforting Mike or they're talking about El. To the extent that the GA was annoyed that Mike was "useless" and the California plotline was a "waste of time."

(Either the Duffers were bad writers or had a reason to spend so much time on the California plot. Hmm...)

The show was putting Byler in a holding pattern. The show established that Mike and Will were close again, but with a "beard" on Mike: his relationship with El. Will's attempt to talk about anything ELSE -- like playing Nintendo and D&D -- was ignored as Mike worried about El.

The Will Counseling Hour ends only with their very LAST conversation of season 4, when Will shares that he can still feel Vecna. Mike becomes the Counselor: he resolves that they will beat Vecna. The bringing of these two together, along with signs that Mike and El are drifting apart, lays the trajectory for Season 5.

Season 5 will be the first season with Unfiltered Byler(TM) since Season 2.

EVERYTHING that kept the GA from thinking about the possibility of Byler, (1) how young they were in Season 2, (2) their being kept artificially apart and (3) Mike's focus on his relationship with El, will have fallen away.

For the first time since Season 2, the A Plot and Mike and Will being close ("a team") will mesh.

Meanwhile, we'll get Season 2 Mike because Will will also be the center of the story and IN DANGER. It's impossible to imagine Mike being his aloof start-of-Season-4 self. Add to all this Season 4 hormones: we're likely to see the heart-eyes romantic, Will-Voice-speaking boy in love we Bylers see in the 2nd half of Season 4.

And there's the Painting Lie, which the Duffers have told Finn Wolfhard will "pay off in the end." Mike WILL KNOW Will loves him, and loved him so much as to sacrifice himself for him.

Even if one doesn't accept Byler, one can't deny that there has to be a DIRECT RECKONING over whether Mike returns Will's feelings.

The entire structure of how the show has presented their relationship is building up toward this. The Strange Postponement of Byler had a purpose.

-teambyler

EDIT: You might enjoy my s5 speculations in "How the Duffers likely will make the general audience AWARE of Byler and CHEER for Byler" =D

[clericsandpaladins]

I find Season Four to be quite interesting in that the Duffers have confirmed that originally it was meant to be the last season, but they had to split it for the sake of pacing. Season Four is less of it's own season and more of the set-up for Season Five and that tells us a lot about the plots in Season Four.

I've seen a lot of people argue about the purpose of the California and Russia plotlines considering that they are so disconnected from what we could call the main plot, which is Vecna. But the Duffers are NOT bad writers. They had an extra six months to work on and revisit their scripts. Everything in Season Four was very intentional, which is why I choose to give the California and Russia plotlines the benefit of the doubt. Do they seem pretty pointless? Yeah, right now they do. But when you think about it, we are only seeing half of the story here. Season Four and Five were meant to be ONE season.  Hopper's prison break is only half of the story, we don't yet know the true purpose for reviving him and spending so much time getting him out. We needed to get Hopper away so that El could spend this season continuing her ongoing arc of self-discovery and independence. What we don't know is why we need Hopper back and that's the question I think will be answered in Season Five. You don't kill and revive characters for no reason because it takes away the stakes in your story. By doing that, you're making your audience less invested in the safety of these characters because they KNOW there are no consequences. So then why did the Duffers spend a quarter of Season Four getting Hopper back, despite it's irrelevance to the plot until the very end where they help to defeat Vecna? That's the question that Season Five will answer. The California group go on a big road trip trying to find El. Seemingly the only purpose for this is to be able to find El so she can get to the pizza freezer and help Max, making the rest of the stuff they do pretty irrelevant. Right? Wrong. Because, once again, this is set-up. We are only seeing half of the story the Duffers wanted to tell. So then what is actually happening in this plotline? Certainly nothing much with Jonathan. But what we do spend most of this plotline doing is showing the development of Mike and Will's relationship. They start off awkward, they argue, they have heart-to-hearts. The majority of this plotline is dedicated to showing us how Will and Mike interact and behave around each other. You know how it all ends? With a chekhov's gun in the form of Will's painting and his veiled love confession. If the Duffers are indeed good writers, then they have to address this is Season Five, once again showing us we are only seeing half of the story.  Because of the chekhov's gun, we know that Will's feelings for Mike have to be addressed in Season Five. If they aren't, then what was the point of the painting in the first place? We didn't need it for Mike to confess his love to El. El dying should've been enough for Mike, but it wasn't. Will reminding Mike of what happened in the van is what lead to his love confession. The painting has a purpose, it just hasn't been addressed yet. Similarly, if this emotional arc with Mike and Will ends with no change in their relationship, then what was the point? There was no need for Will to be in love with Mike to show his queerness. They could've introduced a new love interest for Will like they did with Dustin and Robin. But they didn't. Will's inevitable confession to Mike needs to result in a change for the California plotline to have a purpose, otherwise the narrative wasted all that time building up to nothing. Not to mention the fact that Will is the key to tying up Mike's arc. Mike feels like he isn't needed by El and this is a major insecurity for him. He spends most of Season Four worrying about this and so in order for his ending to be satisfying, we need to resolve this insecurity and prove him wrong. Yet, Season Four ended with El realizing she had value as a person outside of her super powers and that she doesn't need another person to feel whole. She is her own superhero. But you know who does need Mike? Will. In conclusion, these plotlines aren't useless. They are set-up. EDIT: I wrote this at 2am lol. Wish I would've waited and edited the post a bit but alas 2am thoughts are never edited.

[ven0moir]

With the news about Willelmike leading S5 ...

It really makes me feel that much more confident on what we saw during S4 tbh. For example, I'm rewatching S4EP3 and this scene really caught my eye. And it sent my brain into overdrive making certain connections. So let's begin.

We see Mike and Will in two separate circles denoting suspicion imo. And then we add this to the mix ...

After the painting reveal, El associates them as one. A team. Friends ... best friends. And so, my gut feeling tells me that in S5, El will confront Mike about there being someone else that he likes. She knows who, but won't mention it.

And the GA now, will notice the pattern we've been pointing out all along: They have been trapped in a cycle since S3.

They start off seemingly all lovey dovey, which we know from S4 is just an act, then something triggers a falling out related to Mike lying:

S3 trigger: Mike lying about being unable to see her S4 trigger: Mike lying about being scared of her ( + avoiding the 'ily' subject, which will likely carry over into s5 ) S5 trigger: Mike lying about there being someone else

This will parallel their S4EP3 bedroom scene ...

"There's someone else that you like, isn't it?" "What? ... Who ... Who said there's someone else?"

... and denote the lack of growth in their relationship--Mike's supposed love confession didn't really do anything to fix their relationship. And it in fact only made things worse. The thing is, though, S5 is all about breaking free and breaking cycles.

Here's a little more food for thought that might support this idea:

During Hopper's letter, we see the camera pan to Mike when he says "Lately I've been feeling distant from you." And I think this foreshadows the start of his S4 arc.

We know Mike's been trying to call/reach Will, to no avail. Then he learns via Eleven that he's been painting for someone that he liked.

To further denote this idea, we have Nancy say that she isn't sure if Jonathan is pulling away because of the distance between them, or because there is someone else that he likes.

My conclusion? Mike doesn't know if Will is being distant/pulling away from him/pushing him away because of the distance or because of there being someone else that he likes.

And do you know what this whole thing reminded me of? Something that's been introduced to us before specifically related to Mike and Eleven.

This feeling of disconnect--the scene is cold and honestly, sad. Mike was trying to reach her, and once she reached back, he pulled away from her ... and imo this, plus the falling out with Hopper, made her both rebellious and suspicious enough to escape Hopper's cabin and go to the school, where she saw the interaction between Mike and Max that immediately confirmed her suspicion that there was someone new. She was being replaced. Forgotten. Of course, we know she was jumping to conclusions but the idea is there. And it is in-character. This set up would be so glaringly obvious to a member of the GA on a rewatch.

Honestly, El had far less evidence of Mike and Max being a thing in S2, do we really think she doesn't at the very least suspect?

Eleven is not stupid.

She could feel the electricity.

[shinpikurage]

Not shipping Mileven isn't about Byler, it's about how bad the ship is

And I don't mean in a way like, "I don't like these characters together", because I do, wish they had worked out, but they just don't

Their kisses are awkward, they have 0 chemistry, Mike has to feel like he's saving her or he feels useless (in consequence, he puts her in a cage), Eleven lies to him, Mike lies to her, their friends don't even like them together!

They have almost no soft scenes like other ships, they are either fighting, reconsiling or making out

When they're away from eachother they are able to grow as people, only when they are separated they can have their arcs, and gosh, only when they are away from each other they can have fun!

El wants to be loved, to feel like she's not a monster

Mike wants to be needed and to perform

It's basically impossible to ship them

[love-byers]

i had the misfortune of ending up on mileven tiktok by accident and found some gold

dude. how many times do we have to say its not the fact that they're standing next to each other. its the fact that they're standing next to each other when all the other characters are paired off with their significant other with significant space between them. they are SANDWICHED between two couples that they have numerous other parallels with. like you have to be playing dumb if you think we're just saying byler is endgame because they're in the same proximity. and WDYMMMM MIKE ISN'T EVEN LOOKING AT HIM why does that matter?? the whole point is that they're all looking forward at the fucking apocalypse beginning. nancy and jonathan weren't looking at each other, joyce and hopper weren't looking at each other. why does that matter?? and holy shit watching them try to analyze media is hilarious. the byler commenter was very concise an respectful and ofc the mlvn has to be backhanded. no, the 2 minute scene of mike saying i love you is not random, it's actually meticulously crafted so that we're able to tell mike is lying...

uhh because WILL IS THE MAIN FUCKING CHARACTER OF SEASON 5 AND THE WUOLE POINT OF AN ENDING SHOT OF A SEASON IS TO FORESHADOW THE NEXT SEASON???

do they think we're making this up???

he is the center and lead of season 5 and his arc is going to tie the whole series together. but nah they just paired him with mike and left him in the background on the hill just because el needed to be in front. they could've done a million other set ups where it actually comes off that mike and el are a team and in love and want to work together. they could've had those couples together and then had will alone or behind them and done a close up like they did with el in the actual scene, but no, he had to be with mike. and not only is he with mike, he and mike are paired off together and CENTERED. the CENTER of season 5 is CENTERED in the final shot of the season and he is standing with his long time best friend who he is desperately in love with. and all of this is foreshadowing for season 5, which if you've forgotten, is all about connection and finding belonging with others.

"People talk about mythology and The Upside Down, and all that is huge, but the magic of S5 are the characters who find a sense of belonging with other and through that connection, become heroes."

"[Season 5] It's about a group of people who question their value, who find each other, and who find superpowers in connection."

remember when mike beat himself up and questioned his value as a person because he feels weak and powerless and stupid next to el and then will gave him a painting where mike is a literal knight in shining armor and and confessed his own feelings about how mike holds everything together and makes him feel like he's better for being different and gives him the courage to keep fighting and how he'll always need mike and that finally made mike feel reassured

yeah...

alright you guys have to be lying. you can't think of a single reason why people would ship byler?? not a one??? you know what actually, you're right. why on earth would people ship two characters where one is canonically in love with the other, they've been best friends since the first day of kindergarten, they are always a duo, they have a special friendship compared to the others, one said asking the other to be his friend is the best thing he's ever done, one thinks home isn't the same without the other, they hold hands, put their arms around each other, always look out for each other, etc etc ETC. no yeah i don't see it

was the person who confirmed this named mike wheeler...

no yeah we just say random things. those of us using the knowledge we gained in film school/creative writing school to analyze a form of media are just saying random things. i just love making shit up!

mlvns are so silly lol like they really think they know more about film/writing than people who STUDY IT AND DO IT FOR A LIVING

[miwiheroes]

Mike and El's conflict is not just about him not being able to say 'I love you.'

It's about the fact they just don't understand each other anymore. Even if he was truthful about loving her in the end, it doesn't matter. Their relationship's building blocks are still broken. Here's why:

"I guess I just don't really understand."

"I mean, you've seen it, I've been bullied my entire life."

"I know what it's like."

"I understand"

"Just please don't tell the others okay? They won't understand."

"Eleven would. She always did."

"No. You don't."

"What don't I understand?"

"I am different." "You think I'm a monster too."

I really don't think anyone truly realises what the Mike and El fight in season 4 does to their relationship. Yes, it is basically all about how El tells Mike that he isn't loving her in the way that she needs, and that Mike just thinks of her as his superhero rather than a human being. However, this is a total break down in their relationship as a whole.

Their whole relationship was built in season 1 and 2 on a certain type of shared trauma, attachment to the person who gave you care, fascination and most of all, understanding. Mike was attached to her in season 2 and season 1 and had the first inkling that he might have liked her because he thought, 'finally someone who understands me'.

That understanding is gone. I repeat, it is gone. In this scene, with the broken diorama, it is established that the fundamental building blocks of their relationship too, are broken.

Many people think that by the end of season 4, Milkvan is completely fixed. Because Mike said 'I love you' and y'know what, let's say he meant everything he said! What if he did mean that he loved her? (even though that's not the case but walk with me here).

That still doesn't resolve everything.

Wait. But that was their only problem, right? That was all their argument was about, right?

Wrong. Their argument was also about El not understanding Mike, Mike not understanding El. And this part isn't fixed. Mike still calls her a superhero in his speech even if he is truthful, he still makes her feel like she's not a human being.

But:

"You make [me] feel like [I'm] not a mistake at all. Like [I'm] better for being different. And that gives [me] the courage to fight on."

Mike likes the words that Will says, and if he believes the lies that he's telling him, then that means he also likes having that sense of understanding between him and El. But in reality, it's not there. He feels warmth for feeling like he's being understood/ he understands someone else, but it's not El. It's Will.

"I am different. I do not belong." vs. "You make [me] feel like [I'm] better for being different."

When Mike finds out that it's not El that he makes feel like she's not a mistake, and that it's actually Will, he's gonna have a lot of questioning to do. Because, as Finn said:

"There's probably a mutual understanding and acceptance there, I think." (in relation to someone asking about mike's feelings here)

Mike will find that understanding he craves so much in a relationship. Will already believes that Mike understands him and makes him feel like he's not a mistake. Mike will find that understanding with Will, because it's mutual.

Uh so yeah, this is truly why I think for Mike's arc and El's arc, it makes no sense for them to be endgame, because they simply don't understand each other. But it's not anyone's fault.

[conflictofthemind]

I can't answer a lot of asks I'm getting about my / your opinions on this leak because y'all are putting the leak right in the ask itself and I don't want to jumpscare anyone with possibly series defining spoilers!

However my opinion and analysis is as follows!

I agree that this makes whatever they're doing with the WillElMike love triangle messy as all hell. This is going to require some heavy lifting on the writing to not give off the impression that Will is, as so astutely put, "sloppy seconds". It changes the game a bit on my opinions of Mike's sexuality. I'm neither a gay or bi Mike truther because both interpretations feel equally valid to me. But now as to not invoke the previously mentioned trope, I think they'll have to explicitly make him gay and frame his relationship to El as comphet and a possessiveness resulting from trauma.

If I disregard the handling of the romantic aspects though, my possibly controversial opinion is that this ending makes total sense to the themes of the show. Some of the show's main themes are about childhood, nostalgia, and growing up. That's also what Spielberg was trying to do with ET.

ET is based on an imaginary friend he created as a child to shield himself from the trauma of his parent's divorce. EL magically appears to Mike to provide hope and shield him from the trauma of his best friend's disappearance (and his looming feelings for him).

Mike can't let go of her because then he'd actually have to face his trauma, his grief, his fears, his queerness. She's been his safety net for seasons and she's fought his battles for him. He finally starts to feel like something's wrong in Season 4. Mike becomes a very inactive character throughout this all and then having to rely later on Lucas and Will to help fix his growing relationship issues, so he can continue relying on her. All of it completely antithetical to him being a leader and you can see the degradation of character that has happened. Leaders don't rely on people, they are the reliable ones.

Not to mention Hopper's grief and experience with Sara never being something he could get over, and still isn't over to this day. He is controlling over El in Season 3 because of his helplessness over Sara. He's barely healed the wound - just put a bandage over it with the introduction of another daughter that he can use to ignore his grief. In accepting El's death (or departure), he accepts Sara's and finally moves on. Is it sad? Yes. Is it a lot more relatable to an audience of people who have lost loved ones and never gotten the chance to have a figurative replacement show up at their door and heal the wound for them? Yes. But through it all he has still found love and a family.

For a brief segue into Max, she's never really relied on El. You can see the contrast where Max directly opposes Hop/Mike and encourages El to make her own decisions. Max is more of a mentor figure to El. She's strong on her own right. It would be devastating to her regardless but has a lot less to do with her individual character arc.

I have thought this forever and have not been able to say it because of people who will accuse me of misogyny. As if I am not a lesbian feminist who runs a himejoshi (femslash) blog, almost exclusively stans female characters and has a vast majority female friend group but my opinions on El are just because she's a woman. But this is my honest to god interpretation of the work and if all fits what we are seeing plus the stated inspirations for the show?

[bylerpining]

A question I have for bylers is why do you take the van scene out of context. Mike was sad for El and even if he likes Will or not, he was looking at him like that cause he was giving him hope about El. All those looks and all...

going to try to answer this politely bc it seems genuine.

I don't think you guys understand the point of the van scene or what was actually going on... for one, you do NOT look at someone as if they are literally the person they're talking about. that just doesn't make sense. if someone you don't have feelings for is telling you about your girlfriend's love for you and how she made this great gift for you, etc, you're not going to be looking at this person dreamily with heart eyes as if they just morphed into your girlfriend??? this isn't taste by sabrina carpenter

if mike was truly only thinking about el when he was hearing those things, he would be staring at the painting, which is the only thing there that (he believes) is connected to el, not staring at will's lips and gazing at him lovestruck. and the writers would not even write this in if it wasn't purposeful. obviously, there is a huge focus on mike's reactions to will's words and the way mike is looking at will directly. it's such an obvious way to convey what's going on between them.

which brings me to my second point: the entire purpose of the van scene is to showcase that it's WILL'S words, WILL'S feelings for mike, WILL'S encouragement and belief in him that's making mike feel special and loved. not el's. therefore when mike makes his final grand confession to el that supposedly "saves" her, it's all based on a misunderstanding. it's null and void. it was will's love for him that made him say "I love you," not el's. which inevitably sets it up for them to fall apart. it's silly to think this will never be addressed and that was mike and el's happy ending to their relationship arc--a huge lie.

so no, we aren't taking the van scene out of context at all. it seems like m*levens just genuinely don't understand it.

[carrionofamurderprey]

In Defense of Nancy Wheeler,

a short collection of thoughts concocted by someone who is very used to defending a character that is shitted on and misunderstood by half the fandom and victimized by poor writing choices.

1.) In Defense of her being a bad friend

"she abandoned barb and that's why she died"

principally... a shitty thing to do, but i'd ARGUE it was a lapse of judgement that literally triggers her entire character arc. HEAR ME..

and a weaker, but still valid argument that does not excuse her decision, but is fair nonetheless.. how was she supposed to know barb was going to get swallowed up by an inter dimensional monster in the pool???… just saying. JUST SAYING.

Like I mentioned, it triggered a huge character arc for Nancy. Nancy felt awful that Barb went missing, and she recognized her faults. This guilt and confusion toward the tragedy led her to other realizations, like the state of her relationship, who Steve is as a person, and her own identity. My girl had a lot on her plate and she paid her debts in FULL solving Hawkins mysteries to not only compensate for what happened to Barb, but protect her friends and family!!!!!!

Don’t even get me started on how she felt not being able to tell Barb’s parents once she found out what really happened. Must’ve been awful.

2.) In defense of her shitty love triangle (my biggest point arguably)

everyone who hates her because of the love triangle she's subjected to are (and i’m sorry to say it but not really,) stupid. her character is obviously trying to break out of being central to a love triangle, but the writers can not for the life of them figure out what to do with steve and jonathan past s3 developmentally, which keeps her stuck in that place.

Nancy is so badass and has so much potential.

Someone also pointed out the underlying misogynistic issue of keeping women’s development “at bay,”— whether it be intentional or not!!— by having their entire importance dependent on male characters. That’s a post for another day, though.

and i'd like to point out she's not in a place like el, who is also in a canon love triangle, but also completely able to realize and explore her independence after catalysts (being friends with max, breaking up with mike).

THIS IS BECAUSE SHE HASNT HAD THE CHANCE TO BE AUTHENTICALLY ALONE AND REALIZE THE IMPACT OF HER OWN CATALYSTS (barb incident, solving hawkins mysteries)!

nancy’s character— to me and many others feels like she is given the illusion of choice by the writers. nancy in her love triangle is more like mike in his. she is not given the same opportunity to branch out, and is instead stuck choosing between two people, like mike. el's only choice is mike or herself. despite both being female characters that discover their independence, nancy isn't far enough on the receiving end to have her own arc.

Now logically, Nancy could branch out and be alone, and so could Mike. However, just like Mike is set up to be in love with Will, Nancy is set up to be in love with her male interests. Whereas this is sets a tone of freedom and accomplishment for Mike’s character, this.. to me, sets a tone of imprisonment and stillness for Nancy’s.

Final: There is still hope for Nance in s5

i would really like to see more parallels between these two friendships in season 5. like el and max, robin and nancy didn't start off being best friends!!

nancy was standoffish toward robin like el was with max, and they both reacted that way because of a boy, but then slowly realized they valued their female friendship more than romance.

this friendship helped el escape vecna and the idea that she needs approval from the males in her life.

i think it would be cool if they didsomething like that with robin and nancy instead of keeping her at such a stand still with steve and jonathan in the final season.

FIN🤌🏾

[will80sbyers]

In the van scene Mike was looking at Will that way because he was thinking about El, since Will was talking about her at the time.

You always think it’s all about Byler…

Guess what?? It’s not!! 🫣

You people are so boring and repetitive, I guess it makes sense that you love M*leven 😪

In the van scene Mike was reacting emotionally to the words Will was saying about him because Will really sees him as a person and really loves him for who he is, something that El never made Mike feel before, that's why Mike was terrified of saying I love you to her

Eleven never made him feel safe enough or appreciated enough for him to want to open his own heart to her completely, and he was scared that if he did become emotionally vulnerable with her then she would have eventually left him and that would have hurt him - this is a symptom of a deep problem and of something missing in a relationship, even if you believe that Mike is in love with her their relationship would still break down eventually because it doesn't stand on its own without a 3rd person involving themselves in it, they have a weak romantic understanding of each other and low compatibility

even if she does love him platonically she's not in love with him exactly like he's not in love with her and only thinks that's what romantic love is (when it isn't)

I know you are too obtuse to understand this, or you wouldn't be sending me annoying anons, but TV shows don't work as you think they do, they don't make those type of shots thinking "he's watching the love interest A spill his love for him and he looks at him with a raptured expression, he looks in love... but really he's thinking about love interest B here" - it doesn't happen because the directors have to communicate things clearly to the audience and that's confusing - that's why they linger the shots in certain moments or avoid doing that etc - every image is a message

when they made Finn act raptured by that speech- that was really all WILL'S LOVE, not El at all - they made him fall for whoever those words belong to and when he'll discover the truth about the painting the trope of the "misplaced feelings" will complete its arc with Mike understanding that his true love was always Will

It was Will who made him feel in love - it's Will who understands him better than anyone else and really sees him for who he is, it was always Will... and it happens that loving Will is the easiest thing in the world and Mike always did in the background of his mind, he always had that love in him since they were little because... it's Will. Hawkins, Mike's home, is not the same without him.

I'm sorry that you're going to lose a ship that you like and you're upset about it, but it will be the best thing for all of them at the end of the day, El doesn't love Mike with the depth and intensity that Will feels for him, that's just what they have shown on screen for everyone to gather ❤️

[gayofthefae]

The idea that El, at its core concept - no semantics, would prioritize her boyfriend over her family is a fundamental misunderstanding of her arc.

She won't be choosing in the first place but if she was going to Will is literally her BROTHER. Idc if she's known Mike longer that mf lives with her, you thinks she's gonna wreck her FAMILY? Her HOUSEHOLD??? Threaten her HOME LIFE????!!!

[teambyler]

How the Duffers likely will make the general audience AWARE of Byler and CHEER for Byler

First the TL;DR. They'll probably do it with:

Revealing the Painting Lie

Will comes out to Mike

Will gets bullied for being gay, and Mike must make a choice

Mike and Will face danger together, alone, for the 1st time

And I'll spell out exactly how and why!

(CAVEAT: I can't claim to know 100% what will happen of course! This in the spirit of fun analysis and speculation.)

We in the Byler fandom have our theories: Flickergate, Lettergate, Churchgate, etc. While totally fun and while it would be amazing if they became reality, they don't answer the question of how the Duffers would manage audience expectations to make them accept and cheer for Byler.

Because we all know the reality: on a surface level, season 4 ended with a grand "love confession" from Mike to El. It appeared to have culminated a four-year arc that started from show's beginning. For the vast majority of viewers, a Byler relationship will be a HUGE SURPRISE.

This isn't just heteronormativity; it's also the fact that in every slow-burn romantic relationship in fiction, the story needs to openly tease "Will they or won't they?" for a while first. The audience needs to start thinking that these 2 characters (1) MIGHT be together, and (2) eventually that they SHOULD be together and cheer for them!

For Jonathan and Nancy, there were a lot of moments suggesting they MIGHT be together in Season 1. Then in Season 2, we had THIS episode (where Steve left Nancy wasted at the party) that made the audience think Nancy absolutely SHOULD be with Jonathan instead of Steve:

The show then dragged things out MORE before their first kiss.

Anti-Bylers raise a fair point that there "isn't enough time" to replace a relationship that seemed to have been "fulfilled" at the end of s4, with an entirely different one. Of course, the ground has been laid for four seasons, but HOW EXACTLY can the Duffers make the audience accept and cheer for Byler, after seeming to have "built up Mike and El for 4 seasons"?

Showing Byler is POSSIBLE:

First, the most obvious (and elegant) way for the Duffers to accomplish this is by revealing the Painting Lie.

The main things that make the General Audience/GA dismiss the idea that Mike likes Will back are that he (1) confessed "I love you" to El and (2) said things like "it's not my fault you don't like girls" and "we're FRIENDS" that suggest he can't be gay or bi.

The show has to address these two things, and there are ways that are pretty obvious.

The fact that El had no role in the painting COMPLETELY undercuts the "I love you" confession in the GA's mind. Milevens completely underestimate how this will affect Mike and El's relationship and how the audience will view it. El didn't commission the painting. When Will gave the painting, he wasn't describing El, but himself. Mike confessed his love to this false picture of El, one that was actually WILL.

When El finds out, she'll realize that Mike said he loved her based on a LIE. She'll realize that she accurately clocked Mike for not loving her when they argued in s4. It's likely that she'll take the initiative to break up or take a break in their relationship. (El deciding this will assuage concern that Will being with Mike would "betray" his own sister.) Mike might desperately try to repair things. Even if he does, this will show the GA that Mike's struggle for an entire season to say he loved El -- already very concerning for a romantic couple -- was a complete fiasco, and that Mike and El will PROBABLY NOT end up together.

Mike (and the GA) will be confronted with the fact that Mike felt romantic love for the first time because Will described HIMSELF. It will be apparent that Will would be a more suitable romantic interest... if he were a girl. =) It's just too bad that "Mike is probably straight"!

Now how to deal with that misconception?

We come to our OTHER Chekhov's gun that needs to fire: Will comes out to Mike. Will is still closeted at the end of s4, and his right to be out and find happiness is clearly central to his future arc. This HAS to be resolved. And he HAS to come out to his mom and his BEST FRIEND.

When he comes out to Mike, he of course won't spurn Will. Will probably explains he didn't come out earlier because he was afraid Mike would be homophobic because of what he'd said that summer, "It's not my fault you don't like girls":

If Will does, then Mike will have to explain why he said it. First, Mike probably apologizes and makes clear he accepts Will. The show (maybe Mike himself) might remind us that he defended Will from homophobia in s1. But this makes the GA wonder "Then why did he say it then?" And Mike might be exceedingly defensive when explaining himself. Will coming out to Mike is a golden opportunity to show the GA that NOT EVERYTHING IS AS IT SEEMS, and Mike might be dealing with internalized homophobia.

That's one way to signal that Mike might be gay or bi. And there's another!

We've been told that Season 5 returns to Season 1 themes. The Core Four are probably bullied for the Hellfire Club, and Will might be bullied for being gay. Ross Duffer says that s5 will center on Will's "emotional arc" and his "coming into his own as a young man," so his confronting homophobia in an 80s small town is quite likely. Since Mike and Will are joined at the hip in s5, the same accusation could easily extend to Mike. All this means that Mike will be confronted with the CHOICE of whether he'll stand up to anti-gay bullying. (Perhaps this is why there's a BTS pic of Mike with a bruise on his face?) It might be strongly implied to the GA that Mike is standing up, not only for Will, but for himself. Shrewd viewers would see the parallel to Mike defending Will from homophobia in s1, making them rethink that scene as well. (Defending Will INTENSELY would simultaneously suggest he's closeted AND clearly parallel Jonathan fighting Steve in s1, which showed Nancy that "only love makes you that crazy sweetheart, and that damn stupid.")

How Season 5 can make the GA CHEER for Byler:

Showing Byler is possible is the main obstacle; next is the much easier, and FUN (and agonizing) part!

First, the show has put Will through so much trauma and made clear how selfless he is, that the audience already wants him to have a happy ending. He almost certainly will suffer again in s5. We probably are reminded that as a gay person in the 80s he believes he's "not gonna fall in love." Meanwhile, the show has made clear that his love for Mike is PAINFULLY deep and won't simply go away.

Once the GA sees the POSSIBILITY of a Mike/Will romance as per above, their mental floodgates will open. As Jancy shows, It doesn't take much to get the audience to root for a relationship, after the seeds are planted. And Byler has FOUR SEASONS of seeds for the GA to look back on with fresh eyes!

How to recall those 4 seasons of material? We already know that Will is in danger and we'll see a return of "leader Mike" in s5. This likely will include callbacks (and even flashbacks) to Mike and Will's relationship in s1 and s2. There's the newly-filmed flashback from when they were young kids. This all will bring their long-time closeness to the fore in viewers' minds. But with the artifice of Mike's relationship with El knocked away, they will see it as potentially romantic and realize that this show seems to have secretly been building them up as a romantic couple all along.

Add to all that: we likely will have Will and Mike facing danger together, alone, for the first time:

It was Jonathan and Nancy facing danger together in s1 that made the vast majority of viewers ship Jancy. Mike and Will facing danger will put their LOVE (remember: the audience already accepts them as best friends who love each other!) and their willingness to RISK THEIR LIVES for each other to the fore. Callbacks, flashbacks, and dialogue will remind the GA of their sacrifices for each other: Mike putting Will before everything in s1 and s2, and Will sacrificing his feelings to help Mike be with El. They might hug each other after a near-death experience and have a mutual Gay Panic, which will be a callback (and contrast) to their non-hug at the airport. Millions will say "They should just kiss already."

There are SO MANY WAYS to get the audience cheering for Byler.

Will probably lives in Mike's house because the Byers don't have their own house in Hawkins anymore. Mike, if he doesn't know already at the season's start, will KNOW the painting came from Will and wonder if it was romantic. The tension between them in s5 will make s4 look like nothing in comparison.

When Will comes out to him, Mike might ask, "Is... there anyone you like?"

He'll ask NERVOUSLY, like he once did before:

Will probably won't answer honestly; he might make up another boy! ("I met him in California. We like a lot of the same things. He even likes D&D...") To which Mike says, "COOL." (BTW, this could obviously echo the airport scene and make viewers reassess and understand that as another miscommunication!) This leads to a new cycle of these two boys thinking their love is unrequited LOL.

Only this time the General Audience will be fully aware of it. The miscommunication trope widely used in fictional TV romances will not only tell the GA that Byler should happen, but WILL happen. Will and Mike become THE "Will they or won't they?" couple that everyone is talking about. Mike's sexuality and his feelings for Will probably aren't officially revealed until mid or late season in order to let the excitement build. If Season 5 is released in more than one volume, there will be a flurry of videos and articles revisiting past seasons, finding evidence of Mike's feelings for Will that we Bylers have curated for years. Except for a few vocal homophobes, the show will make the GA (even people who don't watch analysis videos online) fully onboard with a Byler conclusion before it happens; the SHOW ITSELF will set-up and tease it and make the GA desperately want these boys to "just kiss already."

Season 5 will be messy. And glorious. And the most Byler season of all.

-teambyler

[bugsbenefit]

genuinely still baffled by the "they don't need to address Mike's sexuality, all that matters is that he's in love with Will" crowd. especially when people say it who claim to care about Mike's character (when you could also just say you don't really care for that part of the show, which would be fine, no one cares about all characters/arcs)

because Surely you realize how him being gay or bi would change his entire character, right. whether he's attracted to girls or not would change the way all his actions up until now are to be interpreted. not even making a statement on his sexuality here, this is generally speaking

if he was actually attracted to El you'd have to address when and why he suddenly stopped loving El since in fiction "it just happened" isn't usually a satisfying answer to breaking a multi season couple up. Why is Will it for him? he's been acting weird for ages so when did he realize? and what made it click he fell out of love with El for good? you'd have to give some explanation for why he was able to proclaim his love for El accidentally in s3 and then fail to do it in the same season while looking uncomfortable with kissing her and so on since his pov was so majorly withheld

if he's not attracted to girls his arc in s5 needs to focus more on comphet and how dating El affected him/why he felt he couldn't break up with her/homophobic attitude in his surrounding slash Hawkins. or the idea of platonic and romantic love in general. there would be no how he got from point A(El) to point B(Will), like what the focus of a bi!Mike s5 arc would have to be on to explain what happened, but a focus on how he ended up at point A in the first place and why he was stuck there/how it affected him

and even core moments of the series would have entirely different meanings depending on if he's attracted to girls. "it's not my fault you don't like girls" being a peak example. if he's gay it's easy to explain it with projection. if he IS attracted to girls though it would read as a much more intentional (even if blurted out) act of homophobia, since it would be him pointing something out that Will genuinely does (not liking being around girls) but he himself can't relate to

and that's all just the surface level differences. Mike being attracted to girls or not being attracted to girls would give his arc an entirely different focus in s5. AS WELL as make his past actions have entirely different meanings. the idea that "it doesn't matter for his character" is so insanely wrong it's wild how many people confidently peddle it

[ven0moir]

Duffers REALLY have me over here making mental gymnastics bc idk wtf this dude's level of awareness is considering that he is TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE when it comes to El and Will like ...

We have this dude. El's Boyfriend.

Let's be so for real. He has no idea what the heck he's doing because he just genuinely cannot be himself in his attempt to fulfill the role of the dutiful boyfriend, and thus his heart isn't in it.

And instead of encouraging her/reminding her of who she is and that she's valued for it, and reconnecting again, like he very obviously intended, he ends up dehumanizing her.

Like Henry once did.

"You are better than they are. Superior." "You're the most incredible person in the world. You can't let these mouthbreathers ruin you. Ruin us."

El doesn't want to be superior. El doesn't want to be on a pedestal and isolated from the rest of the world. She wants to feel human, be loved and to belong. She feels like she's nothing without her superpowers at this point in her arc, and Mike is reinforcing this idea because he just doesn't get it.

This is the consequence of the two of them spending time only making out and not talking in S3 and genuinely getting to know each other.

And I honestly LOVE how the Duffers wrote them in S4 because of that. It feels LOGICAL that a relationship between these two kids was doomed from the start.

And then on the other hand we have ...

The Real Mike.

When he's able to be himself, he's self-aware, he apologizes for being mean, and reconnects with his friend by making him feel appreciated. Irreplaceable.

THIS IS WHAT ELEVEN WANTED/NEEDED FROM HIM. But he wasn't able to give that to her because he isn't naturally inclined to or aligned with her enough to put it into words like this.

His heart is here.

If home is where the heart is, and his home wasn't the same without Will, and without heart we all fall apart... You get where I'm going with this.

He doesn't feel like he can be himself with her the way he feels that he can be himself with Will, whom he knows since they were in kindergarten and have had many fond memories with.

"It was the best thing I've ever done."

I just get such a rush of utter joy thinking about what Mike's reaction is going to be when he learns, without a shadow of a doubt, that Will has romantic feelings for him.

[jaegerisim]

Vent post y'all are gonna hate me for.

I viscerally hate how the Duffers treat most of their non white or queer characters and I hate even more viscerally, how y'all big byler blogs in your circle jerk of other 5 big byler blogs casually like to ignore many red flags the show has.

Y'all like to say: "tHe DufFeRs ArE gReAt WrIteRs" and it's like girl, who are you lying to??? They aren't top shit writers at all. The Duffers are pretty mid imo. Yeah, they run a good show that's fun to watch and theorize abt , but that doesn't mean they're good writers cuz they're not.

1. they completely side lined Will during s3 for the sake of their straight romances: lumax, jancy, mlvn, duzie and partly stobin (even if stobin wasn't endgame, thankfully, Steve's intentions were clearly wanting to date Robin and they gave it a lot of screen time). Will was sidelined bc he didn't fit the straight romance plotline bc they planned to make him gay or whatever. Now in s4 Will and his feelings have been used as mlvn toilet paper. Yes, we like to say this is build up for byler but canonically, Will's feelings have been used to clean the shit mlvn leaves behind.

2. Billy was sympathized a lot during the last 2 seasons. They gave him the sad backstoryTM in order for ppl to feel sorry for him. Billy's backstory is literally Jonathan's but whatever.

3. El's anger issues are constantly girlboss-ified. They down play her bullying situation and literally just use it for El to be a ''girlboss" without realizing how triggering that is. As someone who has lived bullying, seeing it be ignored by canon and fanon is super sad. The whole Rink-O' Mania experience must have been so traumatizing for her yet, everyone absolutely forgets abt it 🤷🏻‍♀️

4. Robin, Erica and Argyle are stereotypical characters. Robin is the quirky lesbian with social anxiety, Erica is the badass black woman and Argyle is the Latino stoner that sells weed to white kids and works as a pizza delivery guy.

5. Altho Argyle and Eddie both do drugs, (Eddie actually sells K-12 to a minor and nobody batted an eye. He has a huge fan base). Eddie is held in a pedestal bc "poor thing 🥺 he lives in a trailer with his uncle 🥺". Tell me a single fact you know abt Argyle that isn't "he smokes weed", "he is Jonathan's only friend", "drives a van" and "he works at a pizzeria". Exactly, Eddie is given a useless backstory and Argyle isn't.

6. Dustin stopped being important to the plot sometime around s2 and s3. He is only there to curse and be mildly funny. My guy needs to hangout with ppl his age cuz he only hangs out with seniors.

7. El needs to stop having so much "I'M THAT BITCH" screentime like I need in s5 for El's arc to not just be her becoming more powerful and falling in love with Mike. I need the Duffers to explore her trauma and problems.

8. Angela should have been run over by the van.

9. Patrick should have been given a backstory that isn't the basic "strict black parents that hit their kids cuz they are a disgrace". Patrick's backstory is actually racist af, fight w the wall.

10. As Lex already said, they didn't trigger tag the ep where Jason and his friends assault Lucas and Erica. Like wtf? Why was that necessary? Why did I have to see a black boy being held at gunpoint by some white guy?? Was it relevant to the plot?? I don't think so. And then I've got to see ppl online be like "Jason wasn't that bad. He was just mourning" like bitch you can stfu. This is what happens when you make the racist assholes conventionally attractive.

Also the fact that Lucas's arc is fulfilled by him fist-fighting Jason and "embracing his weirdness" aka accepting he is black. His arc was not fulfilled at all cuz that ending spoke so loud to me. It showed how little empathy ppl have towards the struggles poc ppl living in the Midwest have. Y'all circle jerks can only see racism when it's super obvious.

Furthermore, parents complained when ST showed "an excessive amount of smoking" yet nobody batted an eye when Billy tried to run over Lucas, when Erica (an 11 y.o ffs) was chased by white kids or when Lucas was held at gunpoint by Jason.

All of this happened while they focused on Max's guilt and mourning that, yeah, are important but certainly not less important than racism!!!

11. In s3, they gave us that whole Nancy vs The Bigots arc that was honestly just triggering and useless. It didn't help Nancy's character at all, quite the opposite it put unnecessary angst.

12. Lonnie being presented as an abuser just for him to never be spoken of again. Can we please get to explore the trauma he left the Byers's with?

13. The fact that both queer relationships are considered "sloppy seconds" is extremely sad. Both Vickie and Mike are rebounding from their failed relationship with Robin and Will. These 2 ships have caused more commotion than Jancy and Jopper together! (These last ships are technically sloppy seconds too but everybody forgets that. Shocker!!)

14. Last but not least, ppl blame Argyle for being the one to get Jonathan into smoking weed as if Jonathan probably wasn't the one looking for it. Let me tell you, that you only find weed if you look for it.