#mike finding out about the feelings will claimed as els actually being his own. duffers please

[bangtanthoughts]

me when s5 comes out and mike says "so, el, that painting you commissioned....."

[will80sbyers]

i just kinda find it funny that people would think that mike actually had no crush on el but only thought that he did, but then completely miss that the same logic applies to his monologue in this case when mike is giving that monologue while believing in the words he says even if they are not exactly the truth, he believes it which means he didn't lie.... like... it is basically the same logic as you said, LOL.

also, it's just very hilarious that many people will just dig under the narrative to find minuscule details and parallels, but they completely miss the way mike and his situation are paralleled to other media and situations that the duffers took inspo from. based on the many inspo they used, it basically shows that mike is oblivious and clueless rather than hiding himself.... he is literally paralleled to clueless/oblivious characters from other media. laurie, beverly, the character from the movie ''clueless'', c'mon... there's even more. his situation is not that he is lying or hiding himself to hide his secret gay thoughts. he just is clueless. that does not make his situation ''less interesting'' either... because being clueless is a very common romantic trope that is used in fiction. and it particularly exists in love triangles as well, esp if the person in the love triangle is in the middle of this love triangle, they are portrayed as either 'oblivious' or clueless about their own real feelings and are portrayed as being oblivious to other person's feelings towards them. (1)

honestly at the end of the day, it is a very common romantic trope and i just wish ppl would realize that when they're blaming us just because we are saying that mike believed what he said in his monologue and he wasn't lying... we cannot just claim and point out to certain romantic parallels that exist in this love triangle, but completely disregard the other obvious parallels between, such as mike being paralleled to laurie (esp the whole monologue thing), mike being paralleled to beverly or mike being paralleled to the character from clueless... etc. it would be disingenuous to ignore these, and it would be just selective-picking some scenes and parallels while ignoring the obvious ones. the duffers arent ''lying'' guys, they and finn are being truthful when they say that mike is oblivious.... because that's what the narrative portrays in addition to the parallels and inspo they used. (2)

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oh yeah I think the narrative is going there, I mean I don't find it funny really... I just don't understand??? like when people make angry posts saying "omg how can you think he isn't lying because xy... are you stupid?!?!"

like, the concept is not difficult even if you disagree, I understand when people say Mike believed he had a crush on El but he didn't really, it's clear... I just personally don't agree🤔

I definitely don't mind that people look for minuscole stuff in the show because I do the same for fun but, like you said, I don't understand ignoring part of the stuff we have

I personally can't do it because if I start to think the Miele parallels are not romantic and the Miele framing doesn't matter... I can't think at the same time that the byler ones are...

plus I don't get why the writers would do something like this, it would just be super confusing for the non bylers viewers at this point especially with the monologue involved and it would give so many contrasting feelings about the narrative instead of closing it in an elegant way focusing on the really important thing that is the love between all of these characters :/

[clericbyers]

I have been thinking about the exchange between Will and Mike at the end of ST3 and in particular their word choice. In artistic media, whatever is articulated is there with purpose. It’s not coincidence (an old example is that if a gun is mentioned in text to be on a wall to a reader, then the reader expects the gun to be important in some manner, whether it is for metaphoric narrative or is literally used because it was explicitly pointed out in the narrative). In terms of cinematic media, the published take was used instead of other versions for whatever reason the director(s) decided, so everything has intent. (Finn even said in a Hollywood Reporter interview that the Duffers shot “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls,” with different phrasing, adding “yet” in one take that ended up unused. So, there’s definitely attention payed to what exactly is being said between Will and Mike.)

That being said, I wanna focus a lot on Mike’s, “Yeah, but what if you want to join another party?” and Will’s, “Not possible.” Before this exchange, Will donates his D&D manuals. He’s not taking it with him despite spending a good while three months back trying to regroup the Party through it. He states that he’ll use Mike’s set, if “we still wanna play”. Here he puts the ball in Mike’s court while acknowledging that they both might grow up and grow out of the interest but Mike holds the means to pursue D&D again. Mike says, “Yeah, but,” and it’s simple acknowledgement neither here nor there because he had something more important to say, something that unnerves him enough to let his gaze wander. He seems a little unsure and he pauses before continuing on, gathering his thoughts. He doesn’t make eye contact with Will until he says, “What if you want to join another party?”

[x]

Now party had two meanings in ST: party as in D&D in general and the Party (which I’ll capitalize) which is the best friend circle of Mike, Will, Lucas, and Dustin. Max and El join later but those four are the Party when it comes to D&D. Mike’s question is loaded. He asks if Will wants to play D&D with other people, he asks if Will wants to find a new friend group to replace the Party. He paints it as a hypothetical, a possibility for Will to pursue if he wants to, not when he plans to. Mike doesn’t say, “Yeah, but you can still find another party while you’re gone.” That is giving explicit permission for Will to move on, it’s what he already expects in a way but doesn’t want. He doesn’t say, “Yeah, but you might want to find a new party.” That paints the Party (and in turn himself) as old and something of the past, which Mike is battling with himself in terms of what it means to grow up.

Mike is asking about this loaded hypothetical situation. “What if,” hypothetically, “you wanna join another party?” ‘Another party’ implies in addition to the Party, an alternate of sorts. It’s not necessarily a replacement, just an addition. He’s offering the possibility because much like what Mike did when El joined the Party, the addition can very well become a replacement. Consider it ironic I suppose, but he doesn’t want Will to replace him.

Will’s response though...his response kills me dead. Will didn’t say, “Impossible.” He said, “Not possible.” There’s a difference between impossible and not possible. Impossible means it can’t occur, it cannot exist. It’s simply not able to be done no matter what. Every single possible event in the world can occur and this one thing simply cannot be done. It’s very finite and, well, pretty extreme and intense. ‘Not possible’ though? It’s technically the same meaning but context and delivery matters. ‘Not possible’ is so much more freeing in terms of interpretation than impossible.

[x]

For example, “It’s impossible to give you a ride,” vs “It’s not possible to give you a ride.” The former phrase implies defeat. It’s literally never going to happen for whatever reason. Maybe the car is full already or you have too much luggage that can’t fit. The bounds of the real world inhibit you from the car ride. It’s frankly just not gonna happen. The latter phrase though infers that there are other circumstances that means this simply isn’t possible. Giving you a ride isn’t in the list of possibilities at the moment. Maybe the car has an extra seat but there’s a dog you’re allergic to in it. It’s not impossible for you to ride in the car—there’s a free seat—but it’s not a possible option for you if you don’t want to have an allergic reaction.

In the context of Will’s reply, impossible would mean that Will can’t ever find another party. That’s frankly false; he could probably find another party, which Mike hypothetically thinks may happen given his question. Will knows this, he could find more people to play D&D with, it’s not impossible to join another party. But he looks down at the box between them—a box full of old toys to donate and move on from, a symbol itself of growing up—and then shakes his head with a soft smile. It’s technically possible to join another party—he has that choice—but in actuality, it’s not possible for him. It’s not possible for Will to replace the Party. It’s not possible for Will to replace Mike. Those cards aren’t in his hand despite them being in the deck.

Will is saying so much just with those two words, reassuring Mike that even though they have growing up in front of and between them (literally in terms of the donation box that’s only there because he’s moving away), the one thing that won’t change is how he feels, and his relation to Mike. That change is not possible. He will always love Mike.

And then Mike smiles.

[x]

Mike smiling with Will isn’t new, but the thing to note here is how he smiles. It’s not just a simple grin. He’s shy, he’s soft, he’s careful, he’s cautious. Mike being cautious about showing affection to Will? That’s new. He’s always been the first to reach out with Will, always caring and checking in, reaching out physically and emotionally. Throughout ST3, he’s shutting Will out and throwing that in his face and when he does that, Mike’s not cautious (as usual), but in ST3 it’s to the negative extreme of brashness.

Now though, Mike is questioning. He even called Will ‘dude’ earlier, trying to get a handle on his relationship with Will. Will is a boy, he’s a dude, he’s Mike’s male friend, right? He could have said “Woah, Will,” or “Whoa, Byers,” or even just, “Whoa,” but saying dude? Why would he ever have to do that, especially if he was still with El? Why is he reinforcing the fact that Will is “dude”? There’s all sorts of interpretations to be had on that but I wanna focus on Mike’s behavior afterwards. As stated before, Mike’s eyes wander when he gets a little unnerved, he worries if Will might forget about him, he’s nervous. Why would Mike be nervous about this? If he’s confident in his friendship with Will, there shouldn’t be any question about it even with the move. Yet, he questions being replaced, questions where he stands, questions what they are.

In response to Mike’s smile, Will smirks.

[x]

It’s a direct contrast to Mike. Will’s not shy, soft, or cautious. He knows what he said, what he implied (at least for himself if Mike doesn’t). He’s blatantly flirty. He’s figured out where he is and what he wants. He showed Mike the level playing field (“I’ll just use yours when I come back. I mean, if we still wanna play.”) and he’s kinda like, “I’ll see you when you get there.” There being acknowledging his feelings. I think it’s also Will noting maybe that Mike likes him, too, compared to three months prior when Mike basically broke his heart and Will proceeded to breakdown over it. Here, Will sees Mike’s shy smile, he sees his nervousness. Will has successfully put his heart out on the line (again) and this time Mike didn’t stomp on it. Mike is pleased to have it, and he’s careful about it. This is something new, them both noting that there’s something different between them. Now, it’s up to Mike to shoot his shot if he wants to.

(And later, when Mike mentions Will in his conversation with El, he gets excited about playing games again when El and Will come back to visit, excited about taking that shot (given games and D&D is Mike and Will’s metaphoric narrative about their friendship while growing up), and then backtracks. He says he sounds like he’s 7. At 7, Mike’s best friends were Will and Lucas. (There’s no explicit age stated when Lucas befriended the two but I assume it to be maybe like a year after Mike and Will became friends.) Mike basically said he sounds like a kid again, naive about many things yet deeply caring toward his friends and well, not dating anyone. In Mike’s character profile in the concept bible, he plays D&D to escape from the fact that he doesn’t have a girlfriend. D&D came out in 1979, which is when Mike is 8 (or 7 depending on his birthday). He wants to restart that D&D obsession, noting that D&D is a metaphor for Will and Mike’s relationship. He wants to return to this closeness from being kids, where it didn’t really matter what the affection meant. But he also knows that he’s 14 and growing up. This isn’t something he should want yet he says it right in front of El, his supposed girlfriend, the one he claims to love yet can’t tell her himself and then can’t return the statement or the kiss after she confesses too. He says it after the exchange with Will, where D&D turned from the game used to maintain the friendship into the game where they can take go further if Mike is ready for it.)

tl;dr Mike likes Will, too and Will gave him a second chance to try again if he’s done being a clown and wants to own up to his feelings.

[ first two gifs by ilu-3000 and last two by cath-avery, as credited above ]

[silver11eyes]

Me: 😍🥳😁😁😁😁

me when s5 comes out and mike says "so, el, that painting you commissioned....."