#looploops au

[lucabyte]

an ending (x)

[samhainian]

Been having thoughts about ISAT’s ending for a while now. The ending is extremely swell and I love it a lot, but I’ve been haunted by a flash assumption I had late in Act 5

!!! SPOILERS FOR ACT 5 AND BEYOND !!!

Between the resolution with The King and up until the final fight, I had assumed Siffrin was going to die? This would have been extremely cruel thematically but I’ve seen enough of these sorts of things that I wasn’t going to be shocked if it had happened. It didn’t, obviously, and the ending we got was wonderful, and I’m very happy that everyone made it out okay… but I’ve been rolling around the idea of Sif dying in my head. 

I don’t feel like it would be thematically incoherent? Thematically cruel, absolutely, but not completely out of line. 

Hear me out: The King is defeated, Vaugarde is saved, and Siffrin is now too sick and burnt out to continue. Vaugarde’s wish has been granted, and Siffrin, unable to go on, has to accept their own death, a real one this time, with no looping back. 

Siffrin not wanting everyone to leave can be granted, in a cruel, twisted way. They will never have to be left behind by their family, never have to say goodbye, since they can spend their final moments surrounded by them. The House’s balcony would provide an ample location as well, with The Island being visible just on the horizon. Siffrin can die, having completed their goal, surrounded by their family, seeing their homeland for one last time, and rest easy knowing that they were loved.

It would be a tragic end, but still an ending.

And wouldn’t this be exactly what Loop wanted?

King is dead, or at least dead enough. Country is saved, loops are over, and that weird clone copy debacle wrapped itself up nicely. The party can stick close to each other since they have a body to deal with, and Loop gets to have their family back. Everyone is alive, a Siffrin is alive. Everything is as it should be.

Loop Wins. 

[quidcrusheu]

Thompson, Nummer 13 aus Leipzig, ich bekomme seit 2 Wochen dein Lächeln nicht mehr aus dem Kopf. Du hast dich direkt in mein Herz gebeatet

[lucabyte]

Standalone post of my doodles for @samhainian's AUs of sorts from this post which you should go read because oouuuuh,,,,,

There's a lot of possibilities with how either of these go, mostly depending on how honest Loop is upfront (or how caught red-handed they are, so to speak). Since... Well, the party is loving. That's the point of the story! They just learned this!

But. How do you even begin to explain this. Especially when you aren't fully over it yourself.

[samhainian]

✨ NoHats Masterpost ✨

Figured I'd make a masterpost of all the NoHats AU content we've made so far for convenience

Full Spoilers for ISAT ahead, be wary.

tl;dr: What if Siffrin died after Act 5, permanently, and how does Loop and the Family go from there?

I'll try my best to keep this updated via reblogs and additions and whatnot. Thank you to my dear creative partner @lucabyte for turning my ideas into content.

Original Post

Initial Loop & Bonnie Art (standalone)

!!! LOOP WINS !!!

an ending

Stardust.

NoHats Ask Ramble

NoHats Doodle Page

Very happy people are enjoying this little misery tour :^) ✨

[lucabyte]

i am looking at nohats au 👀 please share more

So! NoHats! I'm going to grab you and use this to ramble. A Lot.

The NoHats AU is @samhainian's it's just that I'm the strange little freak who takes the words said unto me and executes on them. But I can still do a little explainer on what our overall thoughts and vibes are. (And, that we are in fact propping up a little box with some cheese under it here. 🪤 Please (PLEASE) feel free to pick up what we're putting down.)

We're far from the only ones exploring a "what if siffrin fucking died" AU, though the main difference with NoHats is the placement of the death in the timeline. Instead of being 'Mal Du Pays Wins' or 'Act 6 encounter goes horribly wrong', the death is… Just after the (literal) falling action.

(This placement is because Sam is a comic book fan who thus has become used to characters being ripped away at the cruelest times by shitty writers. THANK FUCKING GOD adrienne is not that and isat is delightful yippieee, but, back on topic.)

Giving the party the full understanding of What Happened that you get by putting the death after black hole siffrin, but before the A6 encounter leaves an interesting gap to be filled. See, making Siffrin's death very much not Loop's fault means that… this once again reads (when not read as simply a tragedy...) as the universe doing what it sees fit to fulfull Loop's wish… Thus making Siffrin's death Loop's fault again, but only in their eyes. And only in a way they could express if they were honest about who they were…

And this is where having had excuse to waffle about my general Postcanon Loop thoughts the other day comes in handy, because Sam and I have that as our canon-compliant reading to begin with, NoHats plays off of a lot of the same readings of Loop's character. Namely: Uh Oh Somebody's Lying By Fucking Omission Again. (BECAUSE TO BE FAIR THIS TIME… HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU HANDLE THAT?)

Now, neither Sam nor I are fanfic writers, so this has been a little bit trapped in our heads and DMs (and my unfinished art but,)

But our thoughts on how NoHats like… Goes.

Siffrin's death is peaceful, but that does not mean the aftermath of it is. I can't imagine the party takes it well, especially after understanding the circumstances of the Loops. (And, of note, in A5 where nobody had the discussion on what to do with each other's bodies should something happen…) But I'd imagine it traumabonds them somewhat (understatement of the century) and now knowing how the rest of the party feels, they resolve to travel together for the forseeable future.

The party track down Loop to deliver the terrible news, since they were clearly Siffrin's friend too, and invite Loop along to travel at least long enough to (let them grieve) get the burial over with. Loop, here, can be helpful in knowing what Siffrin would've wanted where the party would be at a loss. Loop, I think, takes a bit of a lead on the funerary aspects of it all, because, um. (Performing rites on your own body, huh?)

Then, as things are after a death, life just… Kind of has to continue on as normal. The party travel, pick up Nille, and get to know Loop as this mysterious new person. Maybe in this situation they might stay in Bambouche for a while to give Bonnie more stability since. They are probably taking it the worst. It would've come out of absolutely nowhere for everyone in the party obviously but god, for a kid? For A Kid?

It should be stated NoHats is not intended to be grimdark, just y'know. An exploration of grief. This is also why it's got a bit of a lopsided focus on Bonnie vs the rest of the party because hhrrhghghhghghhhghhghhh <- incoherent

Now, a crossroads.

How does the party discover Loop to be Siffrin? How long does it take. How much have the party embraced them as part of the family (especially with something as intense to bond over as this)?

There's the Odile option. Have her put it together and have to bring it up somehow. This could also be done by Isabeau, perhaps. He's smart. (which. God. If anything's the real Isabeau Torment Nexus it's this)

Then there's the other option batted around by Sam and I. The: The Universe Dislikes Duplicates option.

The items in the house that fzzt away when inspected. The Universe doesn't like there to be two of something, at least not when they're acknowledged. But one of something is just fine…?

Which is to say. I'm not a personal proponent of 'Loop getting their body back'. EXCEPT …… except this one time.

There's only one Siffrin now, so they don't need to be obfuscated to exist.

Consider, if you will. Loop swallowing their guilt for long enough to be comfortable. Falling back into old habits. Without another Siffrin around to compete for the niche of, they actually begin to act like Siffrin again. Not intentionally, it's just… The party is as welcoming as they've always been. And the party swears they keep catching glimpses of a face under all the light.

Then, one day, while still not fully human again, the resemblence becomes undeniable. Loop having not even noticed until everyone looks at them like they've seen a ghost.

Has it been months? How long have they kept up this lie? Is it even a lie, to them? They're Loop. But they were, once, Siffrin.

Even after explaining it, does that make it better or worse?

Bonnie cuts through the betrayed, struck-nerve reactions with a sobering "I missed you."

… Anyway !

Yeah so that's the vibe for NoHats. As for LoopLoops? That's more nebulous. I think it can go anywhere really in the NoHats timeline. I err personally toward the "Loop continuously replays the last 10 minutes before Siffrin's death almost immediately after they find out and have to parkour their ass up the House in the most distressing situation possible to try and get them to hold on, just please hold on." (Remember! Siffrin can remember the contents of Loop's loop backs in the A6 fight!)

But there is the possibility that this happens months, or worse years down the road. One last Loop back. Throw it all away for the chance to just get that one thing you didn't know you even wanted but now know you NEED.

Misc:

Okay miscellaneous time.

This is where I admit that I have a bunch of unfinished NoHats art that I haven't gotten around to yet because I feel like a right tool being so obviously Loop-Centric with my fancontent (I AM . . I REALISE I AM NOT DOING MUCH TO BEAT THE ALLEGATIONS.) So like if people want to see that please say because euaghghghhfh <- the nervous.

this is like the most fucked up place to do isaloop fr. anyway.

one of Sam's mid-game observations that I'm just going to share for no particular reason is that Bonnie's hair shares a bunch of shapes with Siffrin's. The flick up at the top, the 3 pronged shape of the fringe… just something to think about.

Without 2 Siffrins around to compare each other to it'd likely be a lot harder to notice Loop's similarities. Doesn't mean that those similarities don't sting more in this context though.

If you do NoHats without LoopLoops. The concept of this all fading into memory years down the line while they just have slightly-glowy but otherwise regular Siffrin hanging out is fucked up to think about. Just like real grief. Augh

6. a peek into the original dms as a treat from us

[samhainian]

Hi hello I'm not sure if I'll have the spoons to do it but would it be okay if I wrote a fic for the Nohats and Looploops au?

Of Course! No need to ask for my permission lmao, I'm just thrilled that my little thought experiment has gotten people thinking :^)

[samhainian]

👋 hi

This pretty much lays it all out. NoHats is an idea I had back when I was finishing the game, mostly stemming from "Wow Siffrin seems sick right before the end. I know how tropes work this isn't gonna go well." Thankfully, I didn't go that direction, but NoHats still stuck with me as fun, if cruel, idea.

Granted its probably best to refer to it as an Alternate Ending rather than an Alternate Universe, but AE is less intuitive than AU.

My main sort of "reasoning" behind it comes from a want to explore the canon and characters, pushing on those already present themes of grief and acceptance and heightening them to a logical extreme, and tie it in with the monkey's paw nature of Loop's wish. Its not quite an alternate universe, since nothing about the main game changes. The loops still happen, but its a wrenching up of the tragedy of Act 5.

Reiterating from the original post: Loop gets everything they asked for.

Luca already explained most of our other ideas: The burial, the mourning, the party choosing to stick together, and a possible eventual breaking point, even some minor ideas for character outfits and design changes. (The big ones of Loop's outfit and Bonnie with the Hat being already designed)

Unfortunately, neither of us are fic writers and I'm not very good at making comics or making art quickly, so exploring this is a bit more difficult than usual, but we'd both be fascinated to see people who *can* write fic and such to explore it.

So if anyone's enticed, go right ahead.

As someone primarily focused on oc stuff rather than fan stuff it's been *really fucking nice* to finally have something gel enough with my brain to make me want to explore something like this, but I can barely get myself to write my own guys most of the time.

So yeah, NoHats. Glad to see people like it :)

!!! 🎉 LOOP WINS 🎉 !!!

i am looking at nohats au 👀 please share more

So! NoHats! I'm going to grab you and use this to ramble. A Lot.

The NoHats AU is @samhainian's it's just that I'm the strange little freak who takes the words said unto me and executes on them. But I can still do a little explainer on what our overall thoughts and vibes are. (And, that we are in fact propping up a little box with some cheese under it here. 🪤 Please (PLEASE) feel free to pick up what we're putting down.)

We're far from the only ones exploring a "what if siffrin fucking died" AU, though the main difference with NoHats is the placement of the death in the timeline. Instead of being 'Mal Du Pays Wins' or 'Act 6 encounter goes horribly wrong', the death is… Just after the (literal) falling action.

(This placement is because Sam is a comic book fan who thus has become used to characters being ripped away at the cruelest times by shitty writers. THANK FUCKING GOD adrienne is not that and isat is delightful yippieee, but, back on topic.)

Giving the party the full understanding of What Happened that you get by putting the death after black hole siffrin, but before the A6 encounter leaves an interesting gap to be filled. See, making Siffrin's death very much not Loop's fault means that… this once again reads (when not read as simply a tragedy...) as the universe doing what it sees fit to fulfull Loop's wish… Thus making Siffrin's death Loop's fault again, but only in their eyes. And only in a way they could express if they were honest about who they were…

And this is where having had excuse to waffle about my general Postcanon Loop thoughts the other day comes in handy, because Sam and I have that as our canon-compliant reading to begin with, NoHats plays off of a lot of the same readings of Loop's character. Namely: Uh Oh Somebody's Lying By Fucking Omission Again. (BECAUSE TO BE FAIR THIS TIME… HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU HANDLE THAT?)

Now, neither Sam nor I are fanfic writers, so this has been a little bit trapped in our heads and DMs (and my unfinished art but,)

But our thoughts on how NoHats like… Goes.

Siffrin's death is peaceful, but that does not mean the aftermath of it is. I can't imagine the party takes it well, especially after understanding the circumstances of the Loops. (And, of note, in A5 where nobody had the discussion on what to do with each other's bodies should something happen…) But I'd imagine it traumabonds them somewhat (understatement of the century) and now knowing how the rest of the party feels, they resolve to travel together for the forseeable future.

The party track down Loop to deliver the terrible news, since they were clearly Siffrin's friend too, and invite Loop along to travel at least long enough to (let them grieve) get the burial over with. Loop, here, can be helpful in knowing what Siffrin would've wanted where the party would be at a loss. Loop, I think, takes a bit of a lead on the funerary aspects of it all, because, um. (Performing rites on your own body, huh?)

Then, as things are after a death, life just… Kind of has to continue on as normal. The party travel, pick up Nille, and get to know Loop as this mysterious new person. Maybe in this situation they might stay in Bambouche for a while to give Bonnie more stability since. They are probably taking it the worst. It would've come out of absolutely nowhere for everyone in the party obviously but god, for a kid? For A Kid?

It should be stated NoHats is not intended to be grimdark, just y'know. An exploration of grief. This is also why it's got a bit of a lopsided focus on Bonnie vs the rest of the party because hhrrhghghhghghhhghhghhh <- incoherent

Now, a crossroads.

How does the party discover Loop to be Siffrin? How long does it take. How much have the party embraced them as part of the family (especially with something as intense to bond over as this)?

There's the Odile option. Have her put it together and have to bring it up somehow. This could also be done by Isabeau, perhaps. He's smart. (which. God. If anything's the real Isabeau Torment Nexus it's this)

Then there's the other option batted around by Sam and I. The: The Universe Dislikes Duplicates option.

The items in the house that fzzt away when inspected. The Universe doesn't like there to be two of something, at least not when they're acknowledged. But one of something is just fine…?

Which is to say. I'm not a personal proponent of 'Loop getting their body back'. EXCEPT …… except this one time.

There's only one Siffrin now, so they don't need to be obfuscated to exist.

Consider, if you will. Loop swallowing their guilt for long enough to be comfortable. Falling back into old habits. Without another Siffrin around to compete for the niche of, they actually begin to act like Siffrin again. Not intentionally, it's just… The party is as welcoming as they've always been. And the party swears they keep catching glimpses of a face under all the light.

Then, one day, while still not fully human again, the resemblence becomes undeniable. Loop having not even noticed until everyone looks at them like they've seen a ghost.

Has it been months? How long have they kept up this lie? Is it even a lie, to them? They're Loop. But they were, once, Siffrin.

Even after explaining it, does that make it better or worse?

Bonnie cuts through the betrayed, struck-nerve reactions with a sobering "I missed you."

… Anyway !

Yeah so that's the vibe for NoHats. As for LoopLoops? That's more nebulous. I think it can go anywhere really in the NoHats timeline. I err personally toward the "Loop continuously replays the last 10 minutes before Siffrin's death almost immediately after they find out and have to parkour their ass up the House in the most distressing situation possible to try and get them to hold on, just please hold on." (Remember! Siffrin can remember the contents of Loop's loop backs in the A6 fight!)

But there is the possibility that this happens months, or worse years down the road. One last Loop back. Throw it all away for the chance to just get that one thing you didn't know you even wanted but now know you NEED.

Misc:

Okay miscellaneous time.

This is where I admit that I have a bunch of unfinished NoHats art that I haven't gotten around to yet because I feel like a right tool being so obviously Loop-Centric with my fancontent (I AM . . I REALISE I AM NOT DOING MUCH TO BEAT THE ALLEGATIONS.) So like if people want to see that please say because euaghghghhfh <- the nervous.

this is like the most fucked up place to do isaloop fr. anyway.

one of Sam's mid-game observations that I'm just going to share for no particular reason is that Bonnie's hair shares a bunch of shapes with Siffrin's. The flick up at the top, the 3 pronged shape of the fringe… just something to think about.

Without 2 Siffrins around to compare each other to it'd likely be a lot harder to notice Loop's similarities. Doesn't mean that those similarities don't sting more in this context though.

If you do NoHats without LoopLoops. The concept of this all fading into memory years down the line while they just have slightly-glowy but otherwise regular Siffrin hanging out is fucked up to think about. Just like real grief. Augh

6. a peek into the original dms as a treat from us

[samhainian]

🎉 !!!Loop Wins!!! 🎉

Following this, what do they do from hereon? Given the events of Act 5, nobody ever discussed what to do with any bodies, and Loop would be the one to know what to do with it. Would they join the party and help guide with what to do with Siffrin’s body? Would they have to be the one to perform the last rites? Would Loop have to bury their own body?

Where would they go from there? Would the party stick together, strengthened by the loss of a family member? Would Loop stick with them? How long would it take before everyone else starts getting suspicious of them? How long would it take before Loop starts falling back into old habits?

And what does Loop do? Do they go along with it? Run away? Or do they try to change the ending again?

Much to think about.

Been having thoughts about ISAT’s ending for a while now. The ending is extremely swell and I love it a lot, but I’ve been haunted by a flash assumption I had late in Act 5

!!! SPOILERS FOR ACT 5 AND BEYOND !!!

Between the resolution with The King and up until the final fight, I had assumed Siffrin was going to die? This would have been extremely cruel thematically but I’ve seen enough of these sorts of things that I wasn’t going to be shocked if it had happened. It didn’t, obviously, and the ending we got was wonderful, and I’m very happy that everyone made it out okay… but I’ve been rolling around the idea of Sif dying in my head. 

I don’t feel like it would be thematically incoherent? Thematically cruel, absolutely, but not completely out of line. 

Hear me out: The King is defeated, Vaugarde is saved, and Siffrin is now too sick and burnt out to continue. Vaugarde’s wish has been granted, and Siffrin, unable to go on, has to accept their own death, a real one this time, with no looping back. 

Siffrin not wanting everyone to leave can be granted, in a cruel, twisted way. They will never have to be left behind by their family, never have to say goodbye, since they can spend their final moments surrounded by them. The House’s balcony would provide an ample location as well, with The Island being visible just on the horizon. Siffrin can die, having completed their goal, surrounded by their family, seeing their homeland for one last time, and rest easy knowing that they were loved.

It would be a tragic end, but still an ending.

And wouldn’t this be exactly what Loop wanted?

King is dead, or at least dead enough. Country is saved, loops are over, and that weird clone copy debacle wrapped itself up nicely. The party can stick close to each other since they have a body to deal with, and Loop gets to have their family back. Everyone is alive, a Siffrin is alive. Everything is as it should be.

Loop Wins.