#literally nobody in the manga calls him ken that i can remember

[s30620]

Chapter 77: This Person is a Pain in the Butt

Lol the nonverbal communication is perfectly represented. I love the way Tatsu draws faces, they are some the best memes in this manga.

It was kinda cute when Momo got jealous of Jiji because Okarun refers to him casually as "Jiji" while he still calls her "Miss Ayase" (Ayase-san).

The way Kashima Reiko knocks on your window at night reminds me of a story about "Hachi Shaku Sama", another female Japanese urban legend, I wonder if that was an inspiration?

[tigerlover16-uk]

As someone who likes hearing your thoughts on DBSuper and anything DB related in general, how do you think Toyotaro's influence in the DB world will be remembered? Honestly the man has done nothing but disappoint by writing poor plot points while dissing many characters and putting Vegeta up on a pedestal. Granted, he's not the first writer to commit these mistakes, but if he keeps this up he'll never make it big in the manga world. Think he can make a comeback with the DBSuper manga?

It’s still strange to hear people actually have interest in what I have to say, but gratifying nonetheless. Thanks for that.

And honestly, God only knows on both accounts. Public opinion on things can radically alter within weeks, and greater time and reflection can give fans a lot of time to look deeper and re-evaluate their opinions on certain works, for better or worse.

Ken Penders was once a beloved writer for the Archie Sonic comics, with many of his stories being longstanding classics. Then his stupid lawsuit happened that resulted in all the characters he created being ripped out of the comic haphazardly, forced a reboot that nobody wanted, and was probably a factor in the recent unceremonious cancellation of the comic right before a 3-part story could be concluded and any kind of closure could be had on anything. So as soon as all that nonsense turned him into the anti-Christ for the Sonic fandom, people began re-reading his work now as more critical adults compared to as impressionable children and realizing that a lot of what he wrote, while there were definitely some merits (There’s a reason people were angry so many of his characters and ideas weren’t allowed to be used anymore), his writing actually had a ton of problems and some of his stories were outright stupid. Endgame gets the worst of it, going from a well regarded would-have-been ending for the comic that changed the series forever, to a subject of mockery for it’s numerous plot holes, weird character decisions and just overall messy story.

On the other hand, we have the Star Wars Prequels. People HATED those movies with a burning passion for years since The Phantom Menace proved a let down for many, and I mean they violently HATED everything about the movies and insisted they killed Star Wars as a whole.

Yet nowadays with the Force Awakens re-invigorating the franchise as a pop cultural juggernaut and yet splintering fan opinions further, many now admit that the outcry to the prequels was WAY overblown. While a lot of old school fans still hate them, many are now willing to admit they did have good ideas and moments and were more mediocre than bad, and there’s a generation of people who grew up on and love the movies more than the original trilogy (Myself included) that can more comfortably admit to liking them and discuss why out in the open without being attacked and ridiculed (Mostly).

The movies are still huge base breakers and will always have the reputation of being disappointing follow ups to the legendary original trilogy, but after Clone Wars proved to everyone that great things did and still are coming out of that era in the timeline, most are willing to admit that the movies weren’t as damaging as they once thought.

Both examples go to show that anything can happen with time. We can make predictions, but we don’t know for sure how something is going to be regarded five or ten or twenty years from now. Doctor Who was a complete joke after it’s initial cancellation and before the revival came around, now it’s a beloved mainstay of pop culture in and outside of my home country again. Even Dragon Ball GT, while not well regarded, is generally seen in a more forgiving light by more people now than it was for years after it’s initial airing here in the west.

Truth is for most of the time he’s been writing the manga, Toyotaro has actually been popular and liked by the fandom. Right up through the end of the Future Trunks saga portion of the manga, the man has had a swarm of Dragon Ball fans passionately insisting that his is the “True” canon of Super and superior to the anime in every way. There are still people that think that way.

It was only about the time he got to Goku Black’s first confrontation with Vegeta that a lot of people really started doubting him, thanks to how ill regarded manga Black is by most in the fandom, especially compared to how beloved he was in the anime even by people who don’t like the saga. And then came the revelation that Toyotaro re-used panels from his Dragon Ball AF fan manga for the series, and apparently incorporated some ideas from it, basically literally trying to canonize his fanfictions and apparently basing Goku Black’s personality on his OC Xicor (And as we’ve established, that worked out SO WELL for him), and suddenly a lot of people realized something was up.

Which paved the way for a lot of people that had been critical of the manga up to that point, such as @dragon-ball-meta here on tumblr, to shed some light on a lot of his questionable writing practises. His treatment of Goku in several instances that made him out to be more dismissive and in several cases annoyed with his children in particular starting to gain notoriety, which hit a breaking point when chapter 27 came out last month and caused an uproar over the “Goku didn’t know when Gohan was born and Vegeta called him a terrible father” nonsense that basically looked like it was canonizing the “lol, Goku’s a bad father” meme (The most disturbing part… Toyotaro has apparently said that Goku is his FAVOURITE character… yeah… let that sink in).

I think that was the final straw for many that basically turned the man into a joke for a huge portion of the fandom. It was one of the worst controversies I’ve seen in this fandom for quite some time, so naturally just about everyone was talking about it. The Japanese fandom I’ve heard was really ticked off about it especially, given Goku is still the most beloved character in the franchise over there, even being recently voted the most beloved anime hero by most age demographics in the country.

So, his reputation has already undergone a major shift since he started writing the manga. He still has his fans who will stick by him through thick and thin, but many people meet him and his work with a lot more scrutiny than they did before, and many people consider him a joke (Gochi fans especially).

If things continue the way they have been, I feel he’s likely to be regarded as “That fan artist that draws good stuff, but shouldn’t have been hired to write an official manga because while he had a few good ideas, he REALLY wasn’t up to the job” that’s what it’s looking like anyway.

Could he make a comeback? Who knows, despite my own outrage with the Goku moment last chapter and my issues with how the Zen Exhibition match is apparently being handled so far in the current chapter, the guy did have a good idea in giving us a more fleshed out introduction to the Gods of Destruction at the start of the Universe Survival saga. For all we know despite these issues, his handling of the rest of the story could actually turn out to be really great and people might prefer it over the anime. Anything’s possible, really. How many people thought My Little Pony’s latest iteration would become one of the most popular and talked about cartoons of the decade?

I kind of doubt that will happen. My problems I’ve already brought up aside, the manga cut out Krillin’s character arc, all of Gohan’s scenes, didn’t adapt the Resurrection F arc (Meaning it didn’t properly build up Frieza for his comeback here, so the manga can’t function as a self contained story with only the original Dragon Ball manga being necessary to understand things that happen in it), cut out the Hit two parter further building on his character and abilities, and further ironing out his rivalry and odd friendship with Goku, completely botched Frost’s character compared to the anime, while also screwing Piccolo over badly in their fight, as well as removing most moments featuring the supporting cast and even reducing Future Trunks to a foot note in a saga that was literally designed as an excuse to bring him back, and is known for rushing through the story compared to the anime in a bid to catch up considering how ridiculously behind Toyotaro has gotten thanks to the monthly schedule.

Which is an especially bad thing if he does that here, considering this saga has to accommodate the majority of the Z fighters getting character moments and good fights, including re-introducing Android 17 after a long absence, as well as introducing and fleshing out slews of new characters. And given his alterations to the Zen Exhibition match which really look like they’ll hamper Gohan’s role and screw Buu over completely, and his poor handling of the Super original characters that aren’t Beerus, Whis, Gowasu and Botamo in the last two sagas, I find it likely he’s not going to do a great job with most of them. Heck, I fully expect Krillin to get knocked out instantly as a joke rather than helping to knock out two opponents with Roshi and 18 and holding his own against Majora.

Again, I could be completely wrong and he could do a good job, and I’m just being judgemental and jumping to conclusions. But I’m finding it hard to be confident that he can make up for his set backs, even if he does end up doing some things better. Which isn’t saying much, his last two sagas he wrote did a few things better than the anime, and they were still worse stories overall.

If he does turn things around and actually writes a really good or even great saga and generally cleans up his act going forward, I could see Toyotaro making a comeback in the eyes of the fandom and being remembered in at least a more fond light than he is now. But if he screws up as badly as I fear he might and like he’s been doing lately, I can only imagine his standing in the fandom getting worse, and at best he’ll largely just be forgotten and ignored by most fans when Super finally concludes, or he’ll be a laughing stock. How that’ll effect his career in professional manga writing, I don’t know, but it likely won’t do him much good.

I guess this whole thing is a learning experience for fans wanting to start working on the actual properties they follow. Even if they’re extremely talented in one aspect (Toyotaro with his drawings) and have passion for what they’re doing, that doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed to do a good job if they’re on writing duties, and they better put their absolute best efforts into things and think things through clearly, because their contributions WILL be scrutinized and they will have a significant impact on the franchise in general.

A lot of fan artists and fanfiction writers do great stuff and deserve to be respected, I know people who have written stuff that’s better than professionally published stories and in some cases are better than parts of the series the fans were adapting from. But there’s a REASON why fanfiction writers aren’t usually hired to write for the works they follow, and why it’s often considered a bad idea. And Toyotaro in many cases has done a good job of proving that point.

I really don’t hate the guy, whatever you may get from how I talk about him. I just want to make that clear for everyone, especially anyone who likes his work reading this. I kind of envy him as a fellow fan for getting to work on writing an official Dragon Ball story, I’d die for that opportunity, and I will still give him credit wherever it’s rightfully due, especially with his art. I just wish he thought things through better and didn’t make as many questionable choices despite having so much more time and being in a better position to plan things out than the anime writers had.

Will Toyotaro make a comeback? Good question, probably not, but we’ll see. I’ll say this though, for all his problems his adaption and the things going on in and around it is at least interesting to talk about, and at least we’ll have some nice artwork and drawings of all our favourite characters to look at however things turn out.

[darlingsin]

How do you feel about the latest chapter? With the Tou//Ken marriage, Tsuki//yama's reaction, a possible death flag raised for Tou//ka, and plenty of other things? I've really tried to be hopeful about everything that has been going on in the recent chapters. I've really tried to be hopeful and tell myself that Ishi//da is going to work everything out and that something WILL go down... Because it IS a tragedy manga, after all... Right? Regardless, everything is going completely downhill.

i feel you anon,, i want to be hopeful and believe that this is just the calm before a massive storm but i honestly dont want to delude myself only to end up disappointed, so i'll just keep reading and hope we can go back to our regular dose of suffering (remember when we were so caught up in tragedy that nobody had the energy for ship wars? i miss that)now onto the wedding; well it was obviously rushed (they talked properly for the first time like ~10 chapters ago, had sex about 5 chapters ago, and suddenly theyre getting married) like ive seen MANY rushed relationships in animanga but tou//ken takes the cake honestly. it makes me wonder if ishida died and was replaced or some shit because this is definitely not the tokyo ghoul i know (like even the poor attempts at foreshadowing... ishida was better than that???). ngl i thought their outfits looked kinda cool but like, not really suitable for a wedding?? ghouls arent some tribe that has never been in contact w/ humanity after all, and tsukiyama of all ppl (who was responsible for wedding shit, sigh) would know what a proper wedding dress looks like. or maybe he didnt want to see kaneki and touka in those and went for bdsm costumes instead lmao as for tsukiyamas reaction,, like honestly, i didnt expect him to be super angry or cry on the spot or whatever, knowing him he would smile through it all but i didnt want him to be the wedding planner, although it doesnt seem TOO out of place. tsukiyama changed tremendously and started valuing other people over himself to the point where he would give up certain things for them (perhaps to make up for his selfishness before) and like. its good and all but GOD I FEEL SO BAD FOR HIM.... i want him to be a lil more selfish!! like son please think of your own wellbeing more,,,, its difficult to tell what hes thinking too bc throughout the manga we've always gotten tsukiyamas thoughts along with his actions, but recently we don't know what he's thinking so i guess that also contributes to him seeming kind of ooc... like for all we know he could be BOILING inside and playing it off yknow. i dont wanna be hopeful and say ishida is preparing us for a plot twist involving him but idk... it'd be nice to have him be relevant again and about other things happening.. some plot points do interest me (the dragon thing which seems like a Shirazu Comeback™) but some are like. so random? for example that underground city with the one-eyed ghoul like where tf did that come from? and why was that plot suddenly pushed aside like everything else for some tou////ken shit? i feel like ishida could use the space he wasted on toeken interactions to shed light on more important matters, like perhaps have kaneki fucking TALK to all the other characters he has unresolved business with instead of dedicating an entire chapter to bad sex (god im still salty about that). that reminds me!!!! i really hate what ishidas doing with kanekis characterization where he tosses literally everyone he ever cared about aside (didnt even bother talking to mutsuki when he showed up at :re like biiiih yall spent the last 3 years together have some common decency, or where he called toeka his best friend, like whats with hide????? i dont even like hide that much but ishida doin him dirty) to highlight tou///kas presence in his life? and you just KNOW that this'll obviously end in her or the baby's death. its tragic how ppl are so ready to see their fave be reduced to a petty love interest for breeding a baby and later on dying for his Man Pain™ just cause their ship became canon,,, makes me think that they dont care abt tou/ka as a character but only as an accessory to kaneki lmao.. im sorry this got a lil long but i hope i could explain myself well OTL