#liongirl watches skam

[fille-lioncelle]

How would you describe the difference between isak/Eskild and Matteo/hans? Do you think their different dynamics make sense in relation to the isak character’ personality?

Well, anon! Hello! :D

Let’s dive into this, shall we?

The major difference, I think, isn’t so much the Isak character’s personality, as the circumstances under which they meet.

Eskild meets Isak (in person) at one of his lowest points, sixteen and drunk at a gay bar having just run away from home. He offers Isak a place to sleep and occasionally some clothes. He keeps that secret for him too. As far as the other characters know, Eskild and Isak meet at that rooftop party at the end of s2.

So I think that makes that relationship both very tight and kind of one-sided for a while. It’s defined by Eskild taking care of Isak  - he literally gives him a roof over his head and later covers his rent for him when Isak’s dad sends the money late! There’s a very strong kind of paternal/fraternal vibe with them. And the way Isak treats Eskild is very much like an older brother, I think. Someone he finds annoying but who’s been Through Things with him and he ultimately loves. I can also imagine that Isak feels indebted to Eskild for a lot of things and that’s not always an easy thing to handle in any kind of relationship, even a friendship.

I think Eskild and Isak come to love each other quite a lot in a relatively short amount of time and I don’t mean this in a diminishing way, but I think it’s borne of circumstance! If Isak had been fine at home, come out on his own terms, I think he and Eskild would have still gotten along if they met! But I don’t think they would have formed the same kind of bond.

Matteo and Hans, on the other hand, meet when the boys crash/were invited to a Christmas (?) get-together at Mia, Hans, and Linn’s place in s2. Matteo isn’t exactly doing amazing, but he and Hans - as far as I know (I haven’t actually watched most of s2) - don’t bond. Matteo never runs away from home either. When he moves in with Mia, Hans, and Linn, it’s because he needs to get away from home as much as because they need a fourth roommate to be able to afford the new flat they have to move into because their old one got flooded (was that the reason? I think that was the reason).

So Matteo isn’t indebted to Hans, Hans isn’t keeping any secrets for Matteo, they don’t really have anything in common except they know Mia (and are gay, but we’re not there yet).

But Hans is a very open person and he wants to like Matteo and get him involved in the flatshare dynamic. And Matteo doesn’t fight Hans on this. This is where I think the different personalities do come into play. I can’t imagine Isak not protesting being called “little butterfly” and kissed on the cheek. I don’t think he’d let Eskild drag him onto the dance floor at a party he doesn’t even really want to be at.

But Matteo does. Even early on, before they talk to each other more when Matteo comes out, Matteo seems to like Hans. Their bond seems more to be built on mutually wanting to be friends, rather than mostly being fuelled by circumstance. Sure, Matteo needing a bit of gay guru-ing certainly plays a major part, but Matteo also doesn’t fight that as much as Isak does. He hangs out with Hans, they cook together, they actually talk to each other. It seems to me like they could have had the same friendship they do now if they’d met when Matteo was already out.

To me, Eskild and Isak have a very brotherly bond, something that’s very strong but defined by how they were thrown together, whereas Hans and Matteo just seem like friends.

What do you think, anon?

- H

[fille-lioncelle]

That's why he said "I won't give up" in reference to GETTING a date. He didn't give up on that. He even pressured her emotionally into it! After that he was perfectly willing to give up. He believed his brother who he described as manipulative and a liar over her, he wasn't even interested in hearing her side of the story, he fucked off to London without warning, then intended to ghost her out of his life, then told her he didn't love her and planned on leaving. And that's all before they even got to London where he neglected her and made her go to a court date where she'd have to relive traumatic events by herself and when she couldn't make herself do it, iirc, got mad at her about it! When she left, he just started seeing someone else. He gave up on her at every possible turn because he never cared about her as a person, only a conquest.

[fille-lioncelle]

How do you think it would be if davenzi met evak? Do you think they’d be friends? I think David and Even would be chill but specifically Matteo and Isak 😂 do you think they’d go on double dates and hang out? Never mind they’re in completely different places in their respective lives and probably have no reason to ever meet anyways lol

Hi, anon!

I think it very much depends on, like, what mood they’re all in on that day lol. Generally, all four of them aren’t rude people, so I’m sure they could all manage to hold a conversation haha. That said — Matteo is also a little shit and Isak has a far shorter temper than he does. And I’m kind of convinced that Matteo would prod at wherever Isak gives him ReactionsTM just for the fun of seeing him unravel. So, if they’re already in a bad mood, that could escalate, maybe haha.

But let’s manufacture a scenario that has all four of them interacting, because why not lol.

Let’s say there’s some sort of young creatives/filmmakers… retreat/meeting/festival/something happening either in Oslo or in Berlin and they all go. Even and David because they’re going to learn/have entered films, and their respective boyfriends for support/because they decided to make a little holiday of it.

I can totally see Even and David politely complimenting each others’ work in that sort of “it’s not my style, but I respect what you’re doing, and I wanted to talk to you about this one cool technique you used” kind of way. And then probably one of them would ask what the other one has planned for the rest of the day, as one does when making polite smalltalk, and then somehow they’ve agreed to all go to dinner together. And neither Isak nor Matteo would deprive their boyfriend of a new friend or something. And they’d probably have a nice evening but whoever has travelled woud beg off at some point because they’re “tired” when really they’re all just kinda waiting for some private time. And then at the end of the Thing they’d all swap social media and agree to stay in touch but they wouldn’t, except for occasional likes and comments on instagram and that vague sort of “oh look, those two guys are doing great, that’s nice, they were nice” connection. Maybe if they went to another one of those things they’d message each other like “are you going too?”.

Maybe it’s just because we don’t really know a lot about their interests outside of their respective boyfriends (lol), but I’m just not sure what they’d have to say to each other haha. So I don’t think any of them would hate each other on sight, but I’m also not sure what they’d have in common to build an actual friendship out of.

What do you think?

- H

[fille-lioncelle]

Unpopular(?) Opinion: i think the remakes (well, we've only met 2 evens so 2 remakes) are a little too intense woth their casting of evens :p like, henrik is a model yes, but he was still like 21 when they filmed, and could actually pass as a hot teenager imo. But skamit and skamfr cast two 25 yos that are next level models! Like no where near believable that these are in high school? Like i get that even is supposed to be hot and mysterious but come on! The beauty of og skam is the realness!

Hahaha, I agree actually!

I think Skam Italia handled Rocco’s *gestures to all of him* quite well, in that they styled him like a 19 year old and at least in the show itself, I don’t feel like he stands out. Everyone is a bit older than their characters (I think Federico, who plays Martino, and Rocco have the same age difference as Tarjei and Henrik do, funnily enough), and he fits in with the “level of attractiveness”. And he did really well as Niccolò, I think. I enjoyed what he did with the role. I found him very relatable and human.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see if Maxence and his ridiculous cheekbones (like, what?! no single person needs that amount of cheekbone?!) will stick out like a beautiful, sore thumb in the Skam France cast!

It is funny though that while Henrik, yeah, is a very pretty human!, was’t a model before the show (…right?) and even since seems to mostly have modelled alongside his Actual Model girlfriend. Yet the two remakes who have cast Even so far seem to be trying to outdo each other with gorgeousness hahaha.

I agree that the age appropriate casting was one of SKAM’s many virtues and I really would have liked if (all) the remakes had stuck to that practice. But since they didn’t, at least we get gorgeous boys and so far one quite stellar performance! ;)

[fille-lioncelle]

"can someone come nerd out with me about the use of extreme closeups in og SKAM" YES that's something I noticed too, and I've come to realize that's one of the reasons I like the show so much. It feels like real life without being s reality show, somehow. It feels more... Anthropological, I believe, whereas other remakes (I haven't watched all) are more traditional in the way they tell the story cinematographycally (is that a word lol) (1)

(2) it really makes a HUGHE difference, because you're trying to tell a intimate story, on a very micro level, to follow the lifes if teens from they pov, and very realistic lifes as well. All the terrible thing we were always coming up with while it was ending, they never happened. And you know you need a way of filming I guess that can capture they thing you're trying to tell in the way you're trying to tell it.

(3) some people are saying that skamit has better quality, it's more idk spectacular than ogskam. But I think thatst the charm of ogskam. That it really followed the main characters on a very very micro level. We were always reminding ourselves "be careful about that! You're watching what X character is doing from the Main's pov!! It's a partial perspective", I hardly see that being said about the remakes, and I thing it might be because of that. Lol that was a rant

Haha, yes it was, anon! But I enjoyed it. ;)

I wanna just say that I am neither a person who is knowledgeable in film... anything beyond being a person who likes stories and likes film and likes watching two hour BTS dvd specials lol. So I am by no means an expert on cinematography or anything haha.

But I agree, that the extreme closeups are a technique that invite us into the "subject's" mind a little more. I also think that all the scenes we got/get of the mains alone help with that too. We see them in completely mundane situations, and that helps flesh their characters out as well as, especially in Isak's case with all those late night insomnia clips, highlight how isolated they feel.

The more traditional methods of SKAM ITALIA do make it feel a bit more cinematic and maybe a bit less close, but I also think that the fact that we, the viewers, know vaguely what's going to happen detracts from that intimacy. We're not wondering what Niccolò's deal is as much as we did with Even, because we already know. Even the closest of close-ups couldn't recreate seeing this story play out for the first time.

That's part of why I'm really excited about the timeline change and how it affects the story. That's what pulls me into the story as a story. Because we don't know what's going on with Martino's mum other than that she's having a rough time! We don't know exactly what role Filippo will play for Martino!

I'm really glad og was shot the way it was, because I haven't seen anything (I think?) shot that way before, but I don't think it's better or worse than what Italia is doing. They both have their merits. Getting occasional glimpses of how Nico is feeling (like in the karaoke party clip) creates interesting tension too!

I've seen speculation that while a good part of Isak's struggle was Isak vs internalised homophobia, Martino's might focus more on Martino vs societal expectations. And if that's true, it makes sense to use a slightly more distant style. It makes sense to present his story as more than an individual's story. S2 starts out with all those (apparently real!) queer kids telling their stories and then, we, the audience, society, are invited in to watch one play out. Maybe we're not meant to be inside Martino's head. Maybe we're just meant to be close enough to see the effects societal homophobia can have on individuals, on kids.

Idk. I'm just spitballing and maybe I'm reading way too much into it but thank you for indulging me, anon!

[fille-lioncelle]

Haha, thanks! I guess I have to stand by what I said now. :P

It is quite a drastic change, isn’t it! Because while I think it's very compatible with "definitely not ready to come out, just testing the waters, still scared of the reaction" - he's just challenging Jonas on sth people in general would agree is a bit of a dick move after all but probably people would also tell Matteo to "learn to take a joke" - it doesn't seem quite as compatible with Isak’s internal attitude, like you said. But maybe it's just "offense is the best defense"? A sort of "I don't have a problem with gay people but like no homo" move? Idk.

Though I sometimes get the feeling that between s1 and s3 Isak moved further into the closet, that maybe if s1 and s2 hadn't gone the way they did, he'd be a bit more open in s3. Because s1 Isak, even though "everyone keeps calling me gay" does still ask Jonas to "play I'm Yours", and sure it's when only Jonas and Eva are around, but I feel like s3 Isak would have never.

But also, maybe they plan on rearranging the seasons??? Idek if they plan on doing a second one at all?? I'm definitely very curious to see if/which changes they make!

Hi! Just thought I should add the caveat that I might be wrong & Jonas might just be using gay as a pejorative haha. But like you said, I think the fact that they picked Sam Smith specifically (& even Matteo's "so what?") work well with it being a descriptor. Jonas might have used it as a descriptor-but-also-pejorative (personally, it always sounds pejorative to me, even when used as a descriptor) & Matteo challenged him on that w/ "so what"? As in "Yeah, Sam Smith is gay, what are you saying"

Yeah, aha, I didn’t want to copy your tags and put you on the spot for that call! Wait, I’ll put them here since we’re talking about it?

#i’m semi-sure Jonas actually says ‘Schwulen-Songs’ not ‘schwule songs’ which changes the meaning #from ‘gay songs’ to ‘gay people songs’ as in 'songs by/for gay people’ #i had wondered how they were going to deal with the fact that 'schwul’ is so ubiquituously used as 'shit’ that hardly anyone would think you #meant 'gay’ when you said it #like saying 'wow that’s a gay song’ would not make anyone think gay as in homosexual #unless it explicitly is #(but then i’m also austrian and not german and maybe that’s more of a thing here than there) #also also 'so what?’ [eyes emoji]

But I do think the changes they made support how you heard it! And yeah it still has an edge to it, that it’s the defining thing you’re pointing out and that “gay songs” is it’s own category. 

The choice of Sam Smith and “so what?” is interesting because that’s really somewhere that Isak neverrrrrrrrr would have been, in either s1 or s3? When Jonas calls I’m Yours “gay”, I think both of them weren’t thinking of it in the sense of “gay” either, they were thinking “gay-as-in-shitty”. And obviously a big thread in s3 is that Isak has internalized that and doesn’t want to be associated with the word “gay” and will use it with a pejorative slant himself. So, like… it’s actually a pretty drastic change to have Matteo not just embracing his feelings for German-Jonas a lot more but also embracing the label of “gay” itself! It makes me wonder what story they would tell with him in s3, because Isak’s is quickly not fitting with what we’ve seen of him…

[fille-lioncelle]

About what you said, how you can skip s1 of skam it bc if you watched og than you know what happened but you liked the girls. I think that's the problem with all the remakes. At the begining most of them are exactly as og and u start watching them but you get bored of it cause you watched the same scenes in og and then skam france and druck and austin and whatever version you watched and you stop cause you find it boring and it's sad cause some of them are good if you manage to get to that part

Yeah, that's a problem all remakes have, I think. Especially when you know the original well and it hasn't been very long since the original came out. I must admit I bowed out of the French remake, but I watched all of S1 of Druck and SKAM ITALIA and I did like them both.

I generally like adaptations/remakes as a genre, because I find it interesting to look for the things that changed and how that impacts the story, how it can be a product of the cultural framework it's set in etc etc. But that's a different kind of enjoyment than just watching something and being excited to find out what happens next haha.

That's part of why I enjoy S2 of SKAM ITALIA a little more than S1 (apart from how Isak's season is my favourite one and so I'm more interested in seeing that redone than the others, admittedly) - enough has been changed that I'm intrigued by Martino's story as Martino's story, not a remake of Isak's. It seems a popular idea to think of the remakes as the parallel universes Isak talks about, but I personally don't look at them that way. Parallel universe Isak is still Isak. Martino is Martino.

(which isn't to say I don't also enjoy comparing Martino and Isak's seasons - can someone come nerd out with me about the use of extreme closeups in og SKAM and how that contributed to the feeling of that intimate bubble Isak and Even always seem to be in while the less extreme closeups in SKAM ITALIA etc let us observe Martino and Niccolò from a little farther away?!)

Sorry for just rambling at you, anon haha. Basically - yes. Sometimes you have to make yourself get through those first boring moments to get to the good stuff. But honestly if you don't want to, that's also fine. I'm just glad SKAM is getting remade so much and I really hope the target audiences in the respective countries get entertainment and representation and maybe even guidance out of it.

[fille-lioncelle]

Do you think even has someone to talk to the same way isak has Eskild? I feel like at the point in which we meet him he’s lost all of his friends, his relationship is on its last leg, and he doesn’t know anyone at a brand new school... and even down the road, I can imagine there’s things he might not feel comfortable opening up to about with his friends considering the past. Do you feel Eskild would ever be someone like that to even as well? So he could open up to someone that’s not isak?

Oh, agreed, he does seem like he’s so unmoored, socially. I like wondering about this too, anon!

I think the prime candidates for that for Even (especially during s3) would be his parents. We don’t really know anything about them. We know he has a mum who would like to meet his boyfriend and that when he texted them he was with Isak after his depressive episode that didn’t seem to bother them or even that they, like Sonja, thought that would be good for him/help him. His mum has been “nagging” so I assume that means she is worried, but she also seems to try and give him his space etc.

(Of course that could also mean that his parents are terrible people who don’t really want to have to deal with him but I very firmly try not to think of that as an option. Even certainly doesn’t react to Isak telling him he left home because it was shit with a sort of “oh yeah that makes sense” face, so I’m going to say he has a nice homelife. SOMEONE ON THIS SHOW MUST HAVE A STABLE HOMELIFE.)

So, I’d like to think that Even has a good relationship with his parents. And that he can talk to them. Maybe he wouldn’t talk to them about how he was falling out of love with Sonja and in love with Isak (though I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility entirely), but they clearly know who Isak is at least by the time after the episode.

As for his old friends post season 4, I personally would like to think that they get close again to a point where they can become a support network for him. They seem to want to listen to him (like with the video for hei briskeby and such) (no matter how clumsily that was executed, the intention was clear) and I think he wants to talk to/listen to them too. I think for a while that means everything is uncomfortable to share, because there are a few massive elephants in the room, but I see no reason to assume they wouldn’t get past that.

As for Eskild… I’m sure he and Even get along and have conversations! I however don’t think that Even would ever depend on him for “guru advice” the way Isak did, because I feel like he doesn’t need it in the same way Isak did. Eskild is the first person Isak comes out to - because he’s also gay. Eskild is a guaranteed no-judgement zone about being gay, so Eskild is someone Isak feels safe with talking about “gay stuff”. He’s the only other out person Isak knows! He’s also a few years older than Isak, seems to have his life quite together.

Even doesn’t seem to need a “gay guru”. Sure, his coming out was a lot less smooth than s3 makes you assume what with his assured pursuit of Isak, but being pan doesn’t seem to stress Even out anymore at all. And all the other things I’m not sure he’d want to share with Eskild of all people. Not because Eskild isn’t a good person, but because he’s Isak’s person (or at least one of them). I don’t think Even would want to put Eskild in the position of knowing things about Even that Isak doesn’t. Or if Isak and Even were having trouble then I’m not sure one of Isak’s closest confidants is the person Even would go to to talk it through with - or at least I wouldn’t. Maybe I’m just projecting. Eskild also isn’t that much older than Even so while I can totally see Even maybe asking Eskild “hey, I noticed Isak seems to be doing xy, do you remember that behaviour at all, should I worry?” type things, I’m not sure he’d be the person he tells if, I don’t know, he doesn’t know what to do after school or how he feels affected by his SA or something, you know? I mean, maybe he does! Honestly, I feel like this part is up to everyone’s interpretation.

I do think Isak and Even remain each other’s primary person to talk about things with, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I do think they both find people outside of their relationship as well though (which is definitely very important!), I‘m just not sure it would be Eskild for Even.

What do you think, anon?

[fille-lioncelle]

I hate seeing isak depicted in fics as this super closed off emotionally unavailable and prickly dude who can only have a conversation with his close friends without coming across as jerk. And then subconsciously or not taking his past to become a hugely prejudiced asshole to Even. Isak was definitely more closed off at the beginning of s3 sure, but I’ve never understood how people could make him unlikable like that

Yeah, I don’t think he’s a generally grumpy or unlikeable person either. He has a short fuse, at least when generally stressed. Like, Isak suffers from hardcore insomnia for a good part of s3 and given that he actually goes to see the school doctor about it, I assume it’s been going on a while. Personally, with that little sleep, I’d be crying all the time, probably physically ill, and DEFINITELY irritable. I think Isak is someone who explodes more than he implodes, gets angry more than he gets listless and sad, but he’s a pretty happy, open dude when he’s doing okay, as s4 (and s1) shows.

So, yeah, agreed!

[fille-lioncelle]

I promise I'm only going to fight you on this one more thing ;) - intentions do matter. They're not the be all end all, but they matter. If you hadn't had good intentions, you wouldn't have responded like this. And it's a great response. <3 Thank you!

Here's another meta for you: On the subject of Isak's internalized homophobia. Where did he learn it? In season 3 he has a strong aversion to 'seeming' gay and any hint of femininity. There are clear microaggressions going on but from what we see in the show most people are chill about gay men and Norway is supposedly accepting. Perhaps it's my poor memory but it seemed like it even heightened between seasons 1 and 3. Is this something he built for himself by himself? Or was it forced on him?

Hi!  Thanks for asking me this :D  I do love doing these metas!  (Please always keep sending them in!  Anyone and everyone!)

This is an interesting question, and I dealt with parts of it in this meta I did many many months ago.  I did kind of look into where it came from, but the parts about whether he built it for himself or whether it was forced on him probably deserve to be looked at in more detail.  

Keep reading

[fille-lioncelle]

Do you know how inexplicably happy it makes me that even’s sexuality was so supported by isak and that it was never a topic of tension or question? Like when Magnus jokingly commented about ~what if he’s pansexul~ isak just shrugged like it was no big deal, and then later on posts a wonderful selfie supporting his identity for pride? I feel like its so rare to see gay men in media explicitly supporting bi/pansexuality. Isak loves &supports and would defend his pansexual prince and that’s a fact

Same, actually. I think it’s absolutely lovely that there isn’t even a hint of “oooh Even was flaky with Sonja and Isak because you know how those bi/pan people are…” or anything. Even when Eskild says that thing about how many guys sleep with guys but few are willing to leave their girlfriends, that’s not (explicitly) about Even being bi/pan, it’s just a thing about guys maybe being unwilling to publically be in a relationship with a guy or whatever.

I do kind of want to write about that some day maybe because while I think Isak definitely doesn’t hold Even’s sexuality against him in any way, I could see him holding beliefs he never thought to question that are inadvertently a little bit panphobic.

Like, if someone told him that statistically pan people tend to end up with “opposite” gender partners I can see how he’d be like “well, it’s just statistics” and accept it as a #fact without questioning all the factors that come into play and such.

But, yes. I am very glad that in canon it’s never a point of tension between them at all. That’s so so so lovely.

[fille-lioncelle]

Just saw an unpopular opinion tweet saying Sana and Isak’s friendship was a joke and made no sense! What? It made perfect sense. They are so much alike in so many ways, both sort of grumpy on the outside but warm on the inside, both ambitious and interested in science, both belonging to minority groups making them outsiders to a certain extent in the series. Both having dry humor. It’s statements like that make me realize some ‘fans’ really didn’t watch the same show as me :(

I can see how the decline of Sana’s friendship with the girls in s4 (which, at least in part, DIDN’T make a lot of sense) might make the strengthening friendship she has with Isak seem a bit out of left field. Kinda like maybe they wanted it to be Isak because they knew a lot of people really, really loved Isak…? Or maybe I’m being too cynical. Still! That doesn’t mean that Isak and Sana’s friendship doesn’t make sense. They seem like a very natural pair of friends to me too, for all the reasons you listed, anon!

[fille-lioncelle]

Sana and Isak forged a bond and understanding during the later parts of s3 and then saw each other as friends. They most likely grew closer and closer in the four months leading up to s4, and also always sitting together in classes. And yes the girls fallout was very unnatural and was to isolate Sana but keep focus on Noora. I'm sad Julie didn't choose another path for s4 to keep the strong friendships and still have Sana's struggles. The van scene is beautiful but all decisions made it unearned

Absolutely! Isak and Sana definitely grew closer between seasons - they left s3 with “biology partner… an friend ;)” and they start it with the teasing kind of banter that definitely shows the “friend” side of that definition. And I love the idea of them sitting together in other classes too!

But that all happens off screen, while the falling apart of the girls’ friendship (for no very good reason, and with a very ??? resolution) happens on screen, so I can understand people being frustrated with the different treatments these friendships got.

But, yeah, the point that Isak and Sana’s friendship makes sense and develops naturally and works in the parameters of canon still stands. :)

[fille-lioncelle]

He blamed her for being sexually assaulted, took/invited/dragged her to a foreign country, making her interrupt/end/complicate her education, where he then proceeded to neglect her, didn’t once try to contact her when she came back home and instead found a new girlfriend without clarifying their relationship status first, but when he shows up out of the blue eight fucking months later I’m supposed to think it’s romantic? What the fuck are the straights doing?!

[fille-lioncelle]

@getthering said: Clearly you didn’t watch the show.  You must have watched a different show.  When exactly did she blame her for being raped? Please point out the moment he tells her it’s her fault for getting non raped. Please also point out the clip where she forces her to go to London and makes her go.  You must have seen a clip I didn’t see… Also… Wasn’t Noora ready to move on as well, without talking to him? I mean it’s ok if you dislike him and if you think he’s a douche (he was).  But you’re reaching a bit there.

Sure! No problem.

(I’m using the screen shots from this post here by @kroppendintrengerpotet, but they have nothing to do with my opinions here.)

I’m referencing this scene in particular, when he storms up to her, crowds her against the wall, and demands to know whether she slept with his brother. (His brother who he knows is a manipulative, evil asshole, but whose word he is going to take. Okay.) Her response is “I don’t know”.

At this point it becomes immediately clear that if anything sexual happened between Noora and Niko it was assault. If she was too out of it to remember, she was too out of it to consent, it’s that easy. His response? Storming off and literally shaking her off his back as she’s desperate to explain. He’s angry at her for being assaulted. At her. That’s basically the same thing as assigning blame. You’re not angry at someone you think is completely innocent in the proceedings.

This happened on Friday, the 20th of May. On that day she also sent him several texts, explaining that she was blacked out, that it was assault if anything happened and she has pressed charges. So, like, even if he doesn’t get that from her “I don’t know”, which I would allow because emotion can make us stupid dickheads, he knows now. She sends another text, more explanation after talking to Mari, four days later. Again, no answer. She talks to him briefly on the 25th when she corners him in school and he says he’ll text her. The next day, after she learns through the girls that he’d always planned on moving to London and hasn’t told her (even before all this drama), he sends her one short text saying he can meet at 5 tomorrow at her prompting. Then he gives her a bullshit speech about not loving her and breaks up with her.

That is William’s response to the girl he supposedly loves being sexually assaulted. Sure, Niko didn’t actually rape her, but he blackmailed her with nude photos. This whole reaction, the way he storms off in anger (to fucking London) and makes it all about him (because, what, someone else might have touched “his” girl????), that’s why I say he blames her.

As for the London thing - of course there wasn’t a clip where he invites her to go with him. He does, however, ask her to live with him (I believe in the clip from Sunday the 29th), and from the way Noora reacts, I don’t think she thinks he means in London, in that moment. At least I thought that when he decided to stay with her that Friday he was staying in Oslo. So, no, we don’t know how that went. That’s why I said “invited/took/dragged”. He’s made it clear before that he prioritses London over her, that’s why I think it’s not overreaching to think she felt a little pressure to go with him. He would’ve gone anyway (probably), and maybe she thought they wouldn’t make it long-distance. (With good reason, they barely make it in the same city.) But, yes! It ostensibly was her decision. She could’ve refused.

I will grant you, that Noora should’ve broken up with William before she came back. Or immediately after. Or at any point in the last eight months. Honestly, until s4 happened, the thought that she hadn’t broken up with him hadn’t even crossed my mind. However, nothing Noora has said this season has come close to sounding like she was ready to move on.

But, her not breaking up with him and then kissing Yousef in a moment of hurt (when she just found out that William had a gf in London), while wrong if she still considered them to be in a relationship, does not even come close to comparing to how he manipulated her into going out with him, was horrible to her when they were going out, did all of what I just outlined above, neglected her in London, and then expected his showing up eight months later to be received like a grand romantic gesture. I mean turns out Julie agrees with him, but. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I don’t.

[fille-lioncelle]

So there’s a thing that happens in every fandom and bothers me in every fandom, and in SKAM I feel like I can go “this specifically is why it bothers me” so I’m going to talk about it for a bit.

That thing is that once an m/m pairing gets to a certain level of popularity, at some point it apparently becomes more or less “widely accepted fanon” that one of them is the more or less (recently more more than less) subby bottom and the other one is the confident top who takes the lead in most/all matters. I don’t know why, but this seems to happen every single time. Apart from how I don’t think that’s representative of most actual m/m relationships, I personally think there’s hardly ever any reason to assign such roles to fictional characters because we hardly ever know anything about their actual sex lives. Often it’s ships who aren’t even canon! There is literally nothing to know! And even when it’s canon ships like Isak and Even, we don’t actually know anything about their sex life! And there’s no necessary correlation between someone’s behaviour outside the bedroom and in it!

So.

Basically, I’m a little bothered by this “Isak is a shy cupcake who never takes the lead and also definitely bottoms” thing that’s been growing so much recently. (Not to say there’s anything wrong with enjoying your smut however you want! If a boy wants to be fucked, he should go get himself fucked and have a great time! My point is just that that should go for all boys and that liking things up your butt isn’t a character trait, it’s a sexual preference.)

Even disregarding that Isak is a seventeen year old boy who is still in the closet when he meets Even and struggles with acting on his true desires because of how he fears it'll make others perceive him, and has thus never been in a romantic relationship where he felt comfortable and got to explore the physical side in a way that was true to himself (if he did at all) (that is to say, it's not unlikely he's a virgin when he meets Even, and even if he isn't he's quite obviously way less experienced than Even, who also generally doesn't seem to give a fuck about what people think about his sexuality), I think there are many instances in the show that establish Isak as a forward, not-at-all-timid person!

Annnnd I’m gonna put this behind a read more because this got seriously long oops

In episode one (of season three, which I’ll focus on), while it is Even who approaches Isak with the infamous paper towels stunt (seriously, that boy is a mess, it's amazing) and asks him to follow him outside, it's Isak who starts up the conversation and tries to find out more about Even. Sure, it's only polite to make conversation with someone who shares their drugs with you, but he seems curious and comfortable here.

In episode two, when they bump into each other on the tram, it's Isak who asks Even for a favour, which is quite forward of him to do considering they've had only the smallest of conversations before. Despite being in the closet (I know I said I'd disregard it, but bear with me!), he approaches this boy he clearly thinks is hot again, and then cancels his plans to spend more time with him and get to know him better. He offers Even advice about how the school works and even tries to "show off" a little with his "rapping skills". Despite this likely being one of the first times he's ever found himself in a situation like this with a boy, he goes with it, lets himself enjoy it, and flirts back!

In episode three, after the Sonja reveal, Isak understandably pulls back from Even, probably convincing himself he was imagining the flirting and tries for that Straight Life TM again (poor boy). When Even shows up at the pregame WITH Sonja, he's clearly angry, and gives Even the cold shoulder, but then when it's just the two of them, despite trying to do the right thing, he goes to kiss Even when he leans in, opening himself up to possibly being a straight boy's experiment. (In the aftermath of this it's also Isak who texts Even about hanging out more, initiating contact.)

In episode four Isak, perhaps accidentally, makes it clear that he's eager to spend more time with Even with his "no. maybe. are you going?" thing when Even asks about the Halloween party, and then, at the pregame from awkward hell, the only time we see him speak up is when he asks Even to clarify something he let Isak believe about him. He then goes with Even when he asks him to leave with him, making an executive decision to abandon that Straight Life. In the pool, when Even gives Isak an out of the kiss situation, Isak instead asks for a "rematch" and kisses Even himself, because this is what he wants! He wants to kiss this boy! So he's gonna!

In the opening of episode five (which is one of my fave scenes ever), Isak initiates a fair few of their kisses and seems perfectly comfortable with the physical contact. What's more is that even though that scene has Even say "jeez, I forgot how young you are", Isak laughs it off and clearly doesn't feel intimidated by Even being older/wiser/more experienced at all (if he even buys the latter two of those lol). When Even says that thing about directing your life he disagrees, and when Even asks him to elaborate he does. When Even in turn says something he doesn't get, he asks for clarification and tells Even straight up that he thinks that's a bit dark. Then when Even doesn't show up to school he goes looking for him, and the first thing he asks Even when he shows up in the locker room scene is "where have you been?" cause it ain't cool to disappear on someone like that and Isak isn't down.

In episode six, Isak is just about Done with Even; hurt from thinking he was being jerked around and seemingly being a straight boy’s experiment after all. He doesn’t give Even the chance to really say anything of substance when they run into each other in school, seemingly deciding that it’s not worth it if Even’s going to be so flaky. This is also the episode where he decides to Do Something about his life and goes to see the school doctor and then comes out to Jonas! Which, honestly, are both really hard things to do. Pulling yourself up from the ground when you’re as emotionally exhausted as Isak probably is at that point is no small feat. He’s done with his own shit and doing something about it! Reaching out to people! Honestly I love this boy omg.

In episode seven, after he’s come out to Mahdi and Magnus rather than let rumours do it for him (or let them deny the rumours!) even though it still makes him nervous, when they’re all pre-gaming at his, he sends Even that text about making up his mind. Sure, Jonas prompted him, but this is more Isak’s inexperience with romantic relationships speaking than his unwillingness to confront Even. He’s already done that several times, it just hasn’t worked out so well for him. Every time he’s put himself out there so far, Even has ended up pulling back again, so it’s no wonder he demands Even make the next move. And when Even makes The Mostest Move by showing up at Isak’s, Isak kisses him and pulls him inside into his room and undresses him, letting this boy who’s hurt him quite a bit at this point touch him how he’s possibly not let anyone else touch him (at least not in a while).

In episode eight, in another one of my favourite moments, Isak actually brings up not one, but two things about his “relationship” with Even that bother him - the fact that Even has bailed on him without saying goodbye in the morning before, and the fact that he doesn’t know whether Sonja’s still in the picture and that even if Even says she isn’t, he’s heard that one before. He isn’t letting Even get away with “screw her, who cares”, because Isak cares. He’s heard Even say that before and he wants to make sure he means it this time. And then he posts that picture of Even to his instagram! Announcing to the world that, yep, that boy y’all think I’m fucking is here and wearing my clothes! Later, when Even tries to tell him not to talk to Sonja, he doesn’t accept his “reasoning” either, and if it weren’t for timing, he definitely would have answered Sonja when she texted, I think. He’s not about to let Even tell him what to do (which, btw, nice irony given Even’s “she’s controlling” thing). He doesn’t let Even kiss him in public either, because he’s not comfortable with it, but initiates a kiss in the elevator when they’re in private. And then! The infamous hotel scene lol. There’s really only one glimpse of what’s going on below-waist that we get, and that’s when we see what seems to be Even’s leg by Isak’s hip like he’s sitting on him. Frankly, I think that’d make sense. Even is the more experienced one between the two of them, both with his own sexuality/desires (given how openly he pursues Isak) and with sex acts in general, and it’s quite daunting to put something up your butt, to put it crudely. That’s my take on that scene, at least. Also, I think Isak’s calling Sonja is a smart and brave thing to do, because he IS sort of “the other woman” and he can’t expect Sonja to like him very much or be at all inclined to help him.

In episode nine, even in the midst of heartbreak, Isak is doing His Best to understand. It takes him a few hours and reassurances from his friends, but he reaches out to Even despite everything and makes himself emotionally available AGAIN (which is a thing he’s been doing the entire season, opening himself up to Even to hold or hurt, and it takes guts to do that so repeatedly when you’ve been knocked down by this person so many times; but Isak likes this boy so much and he’s not giving up!) and then when Even reaches back, he literally runs to him to take care of him.

Which is of course pretty much what episode ten is about - Isak taking the lead emotionally. He talks to Sonja again and prolongs the awkward conversation twice to ask her for help with her ex-boyfriend who left her to be with him. Isak’s definitely no wimp when it comes to awkward conversations lol. He makes up that game about only caring about one minute at a time, asks to kiss Even instead, and physically turns himself into a shield between Even and the rest of the world. Of course Even’s depressed here, but even then Isak doesn’t defer to him at all, but fights him on the “it won’t work out” thing and keeps doing His Best to take care of Even. Again, I think he’s at his strongest when he tells Even to just take it a day at a time, makes himself available as an option but allows Even to come to terms with it in his own time, and by the time the kitchen scene in the last clip happens, they’re clearly on equal footing (again). I think the way they kiss hello and tease each other in that clip mirrors the opening of episode five really well, in tone. Only instead of the safety of Isak’s bedroom, they’re now in the kitchen where Sana can walk in on them and Isak doesn’t move away from Even, where Isak can joke about how hot he thinks Even is and that he decided to have him when he saw him/the “help wanted” poster lol.

And, a quick excursion into season four, Isak clearly has absolutely no problem teasing Even - be it about beer vs sparkling wine or the fact that Isak’s apparently going to be the breadwinner of the relationship haha - or initiating physical affection anymore, as evidenced quite openly by that window makeout session.

That’s all I can think of off the top of my head right now, so don’t hold me to it. I may have missed some things.

IN CONCLUSION I think it’s always been clear that while Isak follows Even’s lead on a few things, that’s more to do with their situation (Isak being closeted, Even being technically unavailable, and more experienced) than their characters. Isak has always challenged Even and has always been very comfortable around him. There’s no indication at all that I see in their canon interaction that leads me to think he would in any way be (necessarily) submissive to Even sexually, or in a service relationship kind of way. I want to reiterate that I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with writing/enjoying them in whatever top/bottom combination one prefers! But even IF Isak were deferential to Even outside of sex (which, as you can see lol, I don’t think), there’s no reason to think that that carries over into their sex life, because that’s not how sexual preferences work. You’re not submissive because you enjoy being kissed anymore than you’re gay because you hold your wrist a certain way or anything. Stereotypes are stupid etc haha; you know this. And given that we have very little to no information about their actual sex life (and rightly so, tbh, it’s not like that’s what’s important about their story), I don’t think either depiction of them as top/bottoms makes them more or less “in character”.

If you’ve actually read all this thanks for indulging me in this ramble??? Feel free to come talk to me about it, if you feel like it.