#like what are you gonna do when she said she doesn't regret the grove?

[ilikedetectives]

At first I was worried Larian is gonna make Minthara recruitable on a good path, but then I realize we're 4 months into release and she's still buggy with the lil existing content she has (for some she's even buggier after Patch 4 and I still get no party banter), so I can rest easy now.

[alicelufenia]

First off, apologies for taking a while to get back to this, it was a busy day at work and I had no breaks to return to this.

It's on this site, all the time, that Halsin is "Drow racist" for refusing to go with Minthara. It's even more common on Reddit and Twitter.

I tend to avoid Twitter and Reddit as a rule, and don't browse Halsin's tags much, if that's where it tends to be. But every time the ultimatum comes up I see a lot of people saying they either like or dislike it because he's asking you to do something incredibly shitty on his behalf. And after she helped you cure the shadow curse too! (totally possible, this is supposed to trigger at long rest so she can be in your party and adventuring around at this point)

And yeah, "but the Absolute made her do it!!!" but… honestly, if someone CLOSE to me had a brain tumor or similar event that made them make attempts on my life, I STILL wouldn't want break contact with them let alone if this was literally my introduction to them. Let alone if the person said that they only regret that their brain tumor forced them to do such things instead of choosing it themself.

If anything I'm disappointed we can't free MORE True Souls. Minthara makes a great point when she points out Gut and Ragzlin didn't get the same treatment. As with everything, I blame the Emperor.

Joking aside, that's precisely the moral question that's being asked here; do you knowingly condemn someone to lose their mind and free will for the sake of someone who can literally just leave? You can choose otherwise, but don't pretend that's the moral thing to do.

As you pointed out, Halsin doesn't have a tadpole, which means he can't see into Minthara's mind and determine for sure if she's a threat. All he has is her word. Which means very little.

Her word and Tav's, apparently. But seriously, at this point I don't even know what the argument is, we both agree that he would have hesitations with traveling with Minthara, objections at most. The difference seems to be whether he has any right to ask us to kick her out, or that doing so is the right thing to do. I can argue that one all day!

He says one negative comment (what I alluded to about Drow culture being built on violence against each other). Which isn't even that negative. It's true.

I cannot WAIT for him to say that to my cleric of Eilistraee. And to think she's gonna romance him later! But man the side-eye he's gonna get would knock him out of cave bear form.

And what he says when Minthara denies his claim she's a danger (she doesn't refute it- refuting would mean she had proven it, and she did no such thing) isn't about Drow, it's about Lolth worship.

Looking back over the script, it's about the part where the Absolute was "an excuse to indulge your base instincts". Her response is that he's not one to judge her for using violence to further her goals when he uses it to further his goal of preserving nature. And as for Lolth, he's the one who brings her up, not Minthara. "Spare me your sanctimony, druid," indeed.

I also like the ultimatum. If nothing else I've had enough 'lol only one tent' jokes.

"You can have the tent, I'm content to sleep underneath the stars."

Halsin CAN'T return to the Grove. EVERYONE seems to forget that this scene is only programmed to trigger if the Rite of Thorns is completed. Meaning that because of Minthara, Halsin has lost his home, his place of worship, will never see his friends again (that's why he has a line that Minthara was only denied her 'bloody prize' because of Kagha's foolishness), AND all of the refugees under his protection died. Halsin's choice is morally sound in those circumstances.

So I didn't mention it before because I didn't assume you were basing anything off this specific trigger, and I'm so glad you clarified! So let's break it down.

You need to give Minthara the grove's location, then trigger the Rite of Thorns, then free Halsin and inform him that the druids completed the ritual, he joins your camp, you travel to Moonrise, find Minthara there, free her, invite her to camp, long rest, and then this triggers.

So he's lost his home, because of who? Because of Minthara? You mean Absolute-controlled Minthara. Except you don't even mean her, you mean TAV who gives her the location (or failing that, frees Sazza to return to the camp and give the location). So it's even worse now because he's angry at the completely wrong person!

But sure, let's say Tav lied about it. That doesn't change the fact that she's not only freed now, but TWICE offers peace between them. "It was the Absolute that directed my hand toward your grove ... I have no quarrel with you," and "If you stand against [the cult of the Absolute] you stand with me." But then, if he won't listen to anything she says, I guess those words are wasted on him. Honestly she should have been meaner, at least that would be a sign that she was starting to like him.

But! Here's the thing.

This ultimatum scene was added in datamine-only, what, patch 4 I think? Patch 5 they introduced the knock out method. Patch 6 they improved it, and added the voice files for the ultimatum. Everything points to them developing this further, rather than it being something left over from an earlier stage of development.

My point being, I would be surprised if they added this in, and DIDN'T make it trigger when you have them together in camp for ANY reason. Even if the grove is fine, even if the tieflings are alive and well. If not, then why bother?

So I'm judging this based entirely on the premise that the expected situation is NOT a Tav who went through a convoluted sequence of triggers to get them both in camp, but people utilizing the knock out method to get them both in their party, period. A scenario where Halsin is fully welcome to step away and back to his old life.

Oh, and speaking of, isn't there someone else who can't go home, abandoned by the god they were once devoted to, and may never see those they've known their whole lives again? I swear her name is right on the tip of my tongue... meh, guess she doesn't matter.

Why should we care what happens to Minthara when she advocates for enslaving the refugees in Baldur's Gate? If she had at any point expressed maybe the slightest agreement with a "slavery is wrong" philosophy i might understand, but instead, her philosophy is "slavery is wrong when it happens to Minthara Baenre instead of one of those OTHER lesser people." So… why should I care?

Now you're bringing up stuff that only has a chance to come up like 40 hours from this point! I don't even think he knows she's a Baenre at this early meeting! But sure, if we want to bring that up, how about the fact that what she proposes (that the refugees be put to work to be fed and sheltered) is NOTHING like how drow slavery normally works, which is "force them to work until they waste away and/or you have a fresh batch of half-drow to export". By drow standards she's being downright charitable, especially coming from a Baenre! And rightfully chastises Tav for suggesting otherwise in a "why do I even bother to offer advice" sort of way.

As to why you care... presumably, you cared enough to not kill her in the goblin camp or at the grove, and to break her out of jail when she was about to be executed. I dunno I feel like that's still mighty relevant. Otherwise you've probably killed her already like so many people do.

I disagree, though i do understand your argument here. It does seem like it was set up with the assumption no one would choose Halsin's side here, and actually I think I know exactly why.

See that's the thing, I don't hate him! I just wish he had more content, and it's a shame if Larian would rather leave it at his act 2 quest and that's it. I've heard many fan proposals, but obviously that's not the same as the task of actually producing and adding new content which is monumentally harder than just coming up with ideas.

Anyway, if this did get added it'd still likely result in the Shadow Curse not getting lifted, in my game at least, cause I'd want to get Minthara asap and even have her in the party as we complete Oliver and Thaniel's quests. It'd be a shame if Halsin left before that was done, I think Minthara and Thaniel would get along great.

T: "Ketheric Thorm must die."

M: "We are in agreement, child."

I mean, the entire game has multiple greater good choices.

Yes?

I don't feel Halsin comes off badly in the current iteration of the scene, but if I could change it, I might do one of the following:

1. Fine with me, bye daddy. Please write to me in the epilogue!

2. I dislike that for a few reasons, first being I've had my fill of people killing elaborating on how they've killed Minthara. The other being, and this is gonna sound crazy unless you've gotten to know her... I don't think she WANTS to fight any of us. Least of all Tav. If you turn her away all she can say is "If we meet again, kill me quickly if you can. I prefer oblivion to enslavement. Goodbye." (lmaooo and then Halsin says "I know that was not easy, but you made the right choice. A viper cannot escape its true nature, no matter how calm it may seem." fucccck)

However, it would be fitting in so far as, EVERY SINGLE dialogue from the moment you meet her, right up to asking her to join your party (not just go to camp, join the party as a playable character!) has an option for you to murder her, or send her to her death, or erase her mind. Sometimes more than once in a single conversation! No other companion gets so many different ways to dome them! In fact there's only one dialogue that normally doesn't have an option, but on Dark Urge you do! (imagine snapping her neck)

Which I feel is deliberate, to represent her paranoia and anxiety over your intentions. As in Menzoberranzan, so on the surface, she is ready for betrayal at any moment. Why should now be different? And it isn't different, until it suddenly is. Until she realizes maybe this can be a home afterall.

All that being said, IF forcing her to leave led to anything, here's what I picture: Nothing happens the rest of Act 2. Until Act 3, as you're making your way through the Temple of Bhaal, and you encounter an Absolute-controlled Minthara who you have to fight to the death. Sending her back into Orin's hands is the cruelest fate I can imagine. Hey I said I was tired of other people gloating how they kill her, I can imagine her torment and terror all I want.

3. This seems kinda already implied, he's already joined up with us because he wants to fight the Absolute with us. Saving the shadowlands was a happy coincidence and an opportunity he wouldn't have had without us, but defeating Ketheric and later the rest of the chosen was still his main goal. And, since again, I'm basing this off the assumption that this needn't be a Rite of Thorns run, he can leave anytime.

4. I honestly don't know what would be the point if nothing Minthara could say or do would ease those concerns. She swore an oath with Tav, not Halsin. Maybe let other party members chime in about what they think, like how you can get your party's response to Gale revealing the orb.

Phew, good talk!

Okay ONE more post about this, and then I'm going to try and disengage from the issue again.

I think what annoys me so much about the reactions to Halsin in the ultimatum is that the fandom is working BACKWARDS to make things fit a conclusion, rather than looking at the textual evidence to form a conclusion.

The fandom's conclusion: Halsin is racist to Drow.

Therefore: His objections to Minthara's actions are solely based on her race.

Therefore: It makes no sense that he is okay with a Lolth-sworn Tav, since he is Drow racist, which means he is just making Tav one of his Exceptions. His acceptance of Tav and willingness to judge Tav on their actions does NOT disprove that he is Drow-racist; it is, instead, an oversight in the writing of Halsin as a Drow-racist character.

But also: Halsin makes one comment early on expressing skepticism that a Drow Tav actually has reservations about killing another Drow, when Drow society is built on constant betrayal and culling of the weak. This proves that he is actually Drow-racist.

Further: It is really gross that Halsin is willing to sleep with the Drow twins. This does NOT disprove that he is Drow-racist; instead, it suggests that he will fetishize Drow while being Drow-racist.

Further: Halsin saying "Lolth's followers" does not make him not Drow-racist. Instead, it means he's discriminating against a religion, and also being very insensitive to cult victims, and he should turn the other cheek. It's actually WORSE if he hates just Lolth's followers instead of all Drow.

Further: Halsin's statements about Minthara's true nature are obviously about exclusively her race, and not her character as an individual. Therefore, his forgiveness of Kagha wasn't because he had seen her be a different and better person before her corruption by the Shadow Druids, but because she was not a Drow, and therefore, this supports that he is Drow-racist.

Therefore: Halsin's objections to Minthara are NOT based on her being a slave owner (and slavery supporter) while Halsin has trauma about being enslaved, and not about her attempt to murder everyone he knows, and not about concerns she will harm the player character (who Halsin has shown multiple times is EXTREMELY important to him), and not about fear for his own life, but solely about Minthara's race, which makes him Drow-racist.

Fandom refuses to see the inherent tautology of this, and it makes it impossible to stop the character-bashing. Instead of contradictory evidence proving Halsin isn't Drow-racist, it's either twisted to make it out like he wouldn't care about that thing if she wasn't a Drow, so he actually is MORE Drow-racist than he was before that issue was brought up, or it's written off as an "inconsistency" with a character as obviously Drow-racist as Halsin.

There is just no winning here. So fine, I give up, I guess I'm stanning a Drow-racist daddy now.