#like obviously punz cares. i just think that evidence shows that he cares more about knowledge

[cdroloisms]

Hot Take: c!drunz is based on c!Punz’s respect for c!dream more than on his allegiance to c!Dream’s cause in particular

strongly agree / agree / ambivalent / disagree / strongly disagree / don’t care whatsoever

eghmmmm

see, it's not that c!punz doesn't respect c!dream. bc he does, obviously. and it's not that c!punz doesn't care about c!dream either--because he does, obviously.

however.

if we look at a timeline of their interactions, c!dream and c!punz start being obvious allies in the revolutionary war. they never really fight against each other but don't really fight with each other again until the battle of the lake, where punz was originally on the opposite side but gets bought by dream. that's the beginning of a mercenary relationship between them as we see it in canon, and their alliance continues for the rest of the timeline. c!dream specifically mentions to c!punz on december 17th that their relationship has developed beyond being purely mercenary in nature.

obviously punz is in total agreement to what dream is saying here, but it's just as obvious that, well, punz is still being paid. there's also the emphasis on the relationship having "grown" from being less than this in the past -- which makes it quite clear to me that when their relationship began, it was obviously quite transactional. both of them had something to gain.

obviously the start of a relationship doesn't determine its end. but the start of this relationship, evidently, is rooted in what c!punz could get from it. moving onwards, it's worth noting the significant benefits that c!punz gets directly from his alliance with dream: he gets to use the revive book, gets to be put 'in charge' of the server while dream is gone, gets material benefits from being paid, gets access to knowledge and power that would otherwise be impossible. with the staged finale, he even gets hailed as a hero of the server. obviously, c!punz benefiting from their relationship isn't evidence against c!drunz or whatever, but it's definitely important to note that he does benefit. he benefits in very significant ways that appeal to him, materially and to his desire for knowledge.

with all of that in mind, when we look at what c!punz says about what he wants, primarily, we have stuff like this in the finale:

in the finale, c!punz makes it pretty damn obvious that he finds what c!tommy wants stupid and simple-minded. including, as he lists here, the part where he just walks around the server and makes friends. he emphasizes the importance of finding answers, that their central goal is to know more about everything. he also points out specifically that he believes that he and c!dream are of the same mindset, that they have the same goals.

so i think it's decently important to note that when we see c!punz talk about him and his relationship with c!dream, it's usually in relation to their plans. when he meets with c!dream post-prison, he mentions that now their plans can get back on track. he tells c!clingy that he's doing what he does for power. in the finale he keeps highlighting their goals, the desire to Know More, the need to understand everything. especially when you consider the end of the last finale stream, because there is a pretty obvious division established between the way c!dream reacts to c!tommy trying to reason with him and c!punz's reaction. c!punz tries to shut c!tommy down while c!dream listens, and c!dream makes a very apparent choice to keep talking to c!tommy instead of doubling down on the same line of reasoning that he and c!punz had been on the entire conversation thus far...indicating that there *is* a separation that exists between these two characters in what motivates them yaknow?

obviously c!punz respects c!dream. but when we look at their relationship in the lore, we know that their relationship *began* because of a level of personal gain by c!punz, as he was a mercenary. we know that over the course of their alliance, c!punz had very clear goals that he was working towards with c!dream that he thought they shared, gaining more knowledge being among the most obvious, but also working against factions (that he also indicates he dislikes in the third finale stream)

at no point do we ever see c!punz acting in support of c!dream without clear personal benefit being involved--which again, isn't a bad thing, right. obviously it makes sense for c!punz to be helping someone if he thinks that the two of them can achieve what they desire together. but at the same time, when it comes to c!dream's core emotional wants, these are often communicated through vehicles like c!ranboo and then c!tommy in the finale, not c!punz. when c!dream seems to waver when c!tommy talks to him about what he saw in limbo, i would hardly characterize c!punz's reaction as anyting positive. c!punz's focus is consistently on what they are trying to achieve and the knowledge they're trying to get--when he mentions dream being his friend, it's in response to tommy's challenging him, and dream is conspicuously silent. obviously, c!punz cares. obviously, c!punz respects c!dream. but in terms of what proof exists in canon, i just don't think there's nearly enough proof to say that c!punz's reasons for allying with c!dream have more to do with c!dream than their goals.

[theminecraftbox]

so hes told tommy, sapnap, obviously techno, indirectly tubbo when he and techno listened to the sapnap confrontation(?), and now foolish. any new comparisons / contrasts to glean from the new datapoint? otherwise, any miscellaneous thoughts on any of the lore today? (did you see sam nook he apparently has mad hops!)

/dsmp rp

Why Yes I Have Thoughts. Four revelations and one missed revelation— all very different. The data points, in order:

Techno

Dream tells Techno he’s being tortured. Present tense, not past. He provides absolutely no details. His only purpose is sheer desperation: just to drive home to Techno that this prison is miserable. Quackity could be back any minute, Techno needs to know that he could be next. Later on, he brings up the torture in a similar fashion to how he burns himself and burns potatoes: he’s searching for a reaction, but not searching for pity.

Techno, who has heard firsthand Quackity’s suspicious little jokes about Dream’s ~new behavior~, who came to visit because he was concerned about Dream and looking to break him out, who can see the conditions Dream is living in, and who has just been trapped by Sam, believes him immediately. Why would he not? He’s Dream’s ally, Sam and Quackity’s enemy, and the evidence is obvious and overwhelming. Not surprising.

Not Punz

Dream Does Not tell Punz. Punz, like Techno, is his ally. Punz, unlike Techno, is privy to many private details of Dream’s plan: Punz needs to continue to believe that Dream is capable and confident. Telling Punz about the torture would be evidence that he’s seeking pity or comfort. Dream is not seeking those things and clearly is fine without them.

Sure, Punz would believe him. (Probably. Dream of course cannot know for certain.) But Punz is already on his side; therefore, any realization that Dream has been through something traumatic cannot gain him anything, it can only lose him respect.

Tommy

Dream tells Tommy in a moment of raw, high emotion, full of spite and desperate to seize back the power he’s lost. He can see Tommy’s terror of him: a terror that is unabated when he reveals what’s happened to him. Dream follows up his admission by showing Tommy that he is still a figure to be feared, that even like this he is powerful, that although his enemies tried to shatter him, they failed.

Dream is only half-fishing to see if Tommy knew or not. He doesn’t truly seem to care if Tommy believes him… but the implication behind Dream insisting “I’m sure you knew, I’m sure you wanted it to happen” is that he is imagining Tommy believes the truth, because he supports it.

Sapnap

Dream tells Sapnap about the torture to answer Sapnap asking him why he escaped. Dream wants Sapnap to think he had a reasonable motive to break out. He also wants to see if Sapnap… cares (and make sure he didn’t know), if there’s anything left to be gained here, if there’s still any crumb of good will. He is not casual about the admission—he situates the torture as the reason he needed to flee the prison—but he provides no detail.

Sapnap does not take the accusation seriously. He is skeptical about what Dream means by “torture” and he quickly brushes it off. Obviously his closeness to Quackity is a factor here, as is his stubborn insistence that he must be Dream’s enemy. Dream seems… taken aback. But when Sapnap changes the subject, Dream moves on too.

Foolish

Dream spends half an hour talking about all sorts of things and pretending to be friends with Sam to make Sam squirm. When he finally brings up the torture, it’s head-spinningly abrupt and terribly casual, in the middle of a conversation about how Dream finds it hard to believe that someone like Foolish would work for someone like Quackity. Dream brings it up like it’s only marginally relevant, and then he provides more details than he’s ever told ANYONE who wasn’t in the know: “tools”, “shears,” “little dumb calendar,” “Sam let him.” And he QUICKLY explains that he didn’t give up any information. Dream is acting both like it’s not a big deal (he and Sam are “old friends”, Quackity is “great”) and that it’s obvious reason for him to personally dislike Quackity—and obvious proof that Dream isn’t the only bad guy on the server, which Foolish has been prodding him about (including asking things like “did you deserve it”). On top of that, Dream’s making a point to Sam. The tension is horrific.

Foolish has no history with Dream and given everything he’s heard, is predisposed to disbelieve him. Nonetheless, he takes the accusation seriously and sharply questions Sam. He doesn’t believe Dream blindly (and seems extremely confused as to why Dream and Sam are calling themselves friends if what Dream said is true), but he is open to partnership with Dream and furthermore expresses that this revelation sours his opinion of Quackity.

[ruby-whistler]

Srry but i noticed in one of ur dream posts u Referred to tommy's cat as hope. I must correct u, that cat was born pussbou and died pussboi. /lh Also tommy killing that cat was nothing compared to dream killing mushroom henry in exile btw just wanna say Also for ur posts about dreams trauma or wilbur manipulating him can u provide links to vods or other proof? Srry if i seem rude i mean that in a "genuinely curious way"

Aaa sorry if my ask came off as rude im just genuinely curious :(((

hi! dw, you don't seem rude at all, and i'm extremely happy someone with a different perspective has found my blog! i really appreciate that sort of attitude and am happy to answer :]

/dsmp /rp

the cat was called pussboy by tommy, but dream only called it "the cat" and then said that "it was hope", which is why it sort of became a symbol (his hope is dead, basically) - that's why i kind of made its name capitalized, because it was more of a metaphor than anything.

most c!dream fans call the cat hope because it's just really nice and really symbolic, and also really sad when you think about it. that's why the name was used in the essay, just to clear up the confusion!

tommy killing that cat was nothing compared to dream killing mushroom henry in exile

i don't really think so? mooshroom henry was entertainment more than anything, and even if it was bad, when watching the stream i don't remember seeing him mourn that much - on the other hand, dream was very quickly and very obviously attached to the cat, with it being his only companion in months of isolation, along with the hope that even when tommy left it would keep him company.

keep in mind c!dream has been deprived of stimuli and human contact for so long it's officially classified as psychological torture at that point.

i don't mean to compare trauma or even compare deaths - because honestly, what c!dream and c!tommy have gone through individually is incomparable and i think neither should be diminished in favor of the other since they're both terrible situations.

that's why i disagree that it "was nothing compared to" - it had an obvious effect on c!dream, and was still c!tommy killing an animal specifically to hurt him, no matter what reasons he had.

when i'm talking about effects people's actions have had on c!dream, i'm not talking about those people. i'm talking about him. :) /lh

as for the trauma, a lot of people agree that a lot of the things he says or does are trauma responses, and hence it's very possible that he's had trauma before he went into prison!

this includes being repeatedly called a tyrant via propaganda by about half of your friends who decided to betray you, trying to keep peace and being pushed deeper into villainy instead, repeatedly being put in between a rock and a hard place in order to make sure the people you care about don't start killing each other, then being betrayed by your closest friends after merely trying to keep peace (sapnap & george) and just in general having no control over your life or image and grasping at straws to gain it back.

i know a lot of people with trauma who heavily relate to certain trauma responses, which aren't always just shaky breaths and flashbacks, but trauma often also manifests itself in extremely ugly and destructive ways, both inwardly and outwardly.

trying to control the people around you is also very often a response to going through trauma, as well as emotional repression which is... rather evident on c!dream during season two. it only seems to get worse with repeated abandonment.

in the end, during the vault scene, the way he acts really just isn't at all the way a healthy person would act, and a lot of his really bad mindsets come from the way he was taught by the world around him.

the character is very reserved however, and since we don't have his pov we can't really say for certain - a lot of people claim it in good faith because they have a lot of evidence for it, and i think they're certainly valid in that.

that is just before the prison, however. from what happened during the prison arc? there is no denying he's traumatized at this point.

he's been emotionally and physically abused by c!sam since the very beginning of being imprisoned, and being in solitary confinement for over two weeks is generally considered psychological (and maybe also physical?) torture. that alone shows up in a lot of symptoms of his mental deterioration while in pandora's during people's visits, and quackity's "sessions" just absolutely drove the point home.

what he's gone through during this arc is absolutely incomparable to anything others charactes have faced before, and it's just plain suffering being endured by someone who is, despite everything, still a human being.

as for the wilbur manipulation thing!! it's talking about the whole vassal scene (though even beforehand a lot of their interactions are pretty iffy), and here's a post about that :]

I also have a small question about the analysis u last reblogged cus it says "why dream needed lmanburg gone rightfully" and like. The house analogy is poor because for one cus the land is infinite. And 2 cus punz's yard was literally larger then lmanburg. And also stuff about dream being a mediator? Can u provide examples?

i wouldn't say it was poor. dream's said a lot of times that he didn't care in the slightest about the land - a lot of his problems with l'manberg arose with the fact that wilbur basically built it on lies and tried to disallow half of the server to come there. c!dream was mad about the division and the fact that wilbur wanted "freedom" to have authority in his lands - over others, as can be seen in this post also.

the table analogy was fitting not because dream was some overlord, but because these were literally friends he invited to hang out and live in a place he wanted to call home. claiming a part of it for yourself and saying people of a certain nationality can't come in is directly opposing those goals.

in the early days of the smp, dream's always been a mediator between his friends - sapnap and george, who would often get into fights and go around killing each other! he would always do his best to stop the conflict, which continued after tommy joined when he took him to court and then later tried to mediate conflicts he was a part of, which resulted in tommy killing him unprovoked, stealing his gear, and starting the disc wars when dream was trying to get his stuff back. later, during pogtopia, he is also most concerned with peace over everything, and this seems to continue indefinitely after.

Today i was thinking about how messed up the final control room was. Like. Dream arranged the betrayal and punz and sapnap killed tommy and tubbo who like. Were literal children and their pals (because the author, wilbur soot, is dead/j but srsly if u take the streamers words tommy said he was 9 during the revolution sooo)

Sorry im gonna ramble about how dumb canon ages are for a second cus like. Streamers can say the characters are one way or another (wilbur saying he is mentally 30-something, etc.) But in the end the characters act like they(or at least their streaming personas) do.

i... honestly don't find it that bad? they were in a war, and the final control room was basically just supposed to end it quicker. the l'manbergians made it clear they were going to fight to the death, so they really left c!dream no other choice. and it's not like he didn't give them chances to give up.

also yeah the 9 year old thing was retconned, because in that case c!dream would've been 14 and i don't think that's true.

c!tommy and c!dream were both young and once again, in a war. the final control room was an attempt to assure victory, which both sides would've taken if possible, but only c!dream saw he had the option.

i do agree the whole child soldier thing was bad but... complain about that to c!wilbur, methinks. he talked naive kids into fighting for his personal power. however, the age argument isn't really valid either way. they had enough agency to sign up for it, and whether or not c!wilbur pushing the intense nationalism onto them had something to do with that is another debate entirely.

Bacl to final control room cus like??? Also fun fact punz took 2 of wilbur's canon lives. And like that probably is what started wilbur's paranoia which later lead to his spiral and i. Many thoughts full of lmanburg today.

i'm pretty sure cc!wilbur said what lead to c!wilbur's spiral was a "dark, twister view of possessions" and "disregard for his fellow citizen whom he claimed to love so much", but i really wouldn't say it was the control room; if anything the sudden loss of power after the elections seems to me like the trigger for his spiral.

I watched the exile arc live and. I feel dirty almost for feeling little to no sympathy for c!dream (srry ive been forgetting to add that aa) because of his actions toward c!tommy and like. The whole probation was so humiliating and unfair and c!dream was planning to frame him for the crimes he and puffy did under the the guise of "pranks" and c!quackity was planning to seize the vice president role.

i mean... to be fair, if you didn't watch the prison arc much yet or only watch tommy's perspective i understand not feeling that sympathetic - however, i encourage you to maybe watch a few prison visits, since they could help you see the whole picture better!

i also watched it live, and i also thought it was terrible, but i share very much the same sentiment for the prison arc because. absolutely no one should have to go through either of those things, you know?

i don't think probation was that humiliating? he was just. being asked to not start conflict with the other factions for two weeks. of course, what happened as a result is in no way justified, but i don't think probation itself would've been bad at all. either way yeah the framing and c!quackity's behaviour was. very yikes, i agree.

Also c!tommy antis are dumb because they say "he deserved exile angry emoji" i dont see u saying that about ranboo. Just say you hate cc!tommy and go. Also people say c!tommy was just as toxic to c!dream and i??? No. One is the victim and one is the abuser and like. :/// man. This part is rambly srry

i wouldn't say they hate cc!tommy? cc!tommy has a persona who people think is annoying at first ( but then they subscribe because he is super entertaining big man! ) but a lot of c!tommy's actions are straight up toxic to certain characters, such as c!funndy and c!jack. he has a very dismissive attitude towards others and their trauma and it does affect the people around them very negatively.

examples; his repeated bullying and behavior towards fundy:

Tommy: “Fundy, I’m just here to kinda let you know that I – if you weren’t Wilbur’s son, you would be out of L’manburg, alright? Just remember – you need to keep that relationship with your father. I saw how asshole-y and bratty you were acting in the courtroom the other night. You need to pull your shit together young man.”

......

Fundy: “I’m wearing glasses…are you making fun of my eyesight?!”

Tommy: “Yes.”

Sapnap: “Your father would be very disappointed.”

Fundy: “Wh – disappointed for wearing glasses?!”

Tommy: “You got glasses, like what are you wearing…”

Fundy: “What do you mean?”

Tommy: “Sapnap, Sapnap, over here. Fundy, Fundy, Fundy, I’m really sorry to say this – I’m just here to publicly denounce you.”

Fundy: “…What?”

( credit for transcript: @/findingjoynweirdstuff )

he's also responsible for a big chunk of c!jack's trauma, both with actions and words, and that's why i think certain people might dislike the character, and i don't think that's wrong of them. anyone can dislike any character they want if they don't attack people for liking them, in my opinion.

also c!tommy was most definitely toxic against c!dream in the cell. it's of course understandable but that doesn't change the fact he was constantly hitting and insulting him (without dream doing anything back for a long while until he snapped) which is toxic behaviour.

i wouldn't say he was "just as" though, so i agree with you on that. they're different and they behave differently.

i made a dream blob keychain today. Is it possible to send images if u wanna see? Idk cus i havent used tumblr before. I think that's all for now. Thx for letting me talk :D peepoShy -curious anon (but fr a connoreatspants c!dream redemption arc would be cool)

yooo that's cool! i don't really,,, know if it's possible to send images? try it out and if it isn't i'll try find a way to turn it on.

also, no problem! just please remember this is a c!dream sympathetic blog, and me as well as my followers are uhh,, oftentimes emotionally attached / personally relate to the character, so if you could avoid sending hate on the character (not that you have or that i expect you to, just a friendly reminder) in the asks that would be great! we already see a lot of it unwillingly so, i'd rather not see more, but as long as the discussion is civil i'm absolutely ok with you asking more and with me answering more questions if you'd want to! :)

if anyone else would like to reblog this and add some things i might've missed with my answers, feel free to, just go easy on her (she uses she/her pronouns!) and keep it factual.

i hope u had a good or at least ok time at school today :D

thanks! i gtg now because exam tomorrow but i'm going to try write the redemption essay tomorrow as well because ohhh boy i have a lot of ideas about what all i could write around the concept.

also sorry this was long, i can't keep my tongue on the leash :[

[ruby-whistler]

Ayo curious anon here- im gonna rewatch rewatch the vod and take note of every single punch and why it appears to have happened then we can compare notes. Also i am interested in your opinion on relaxx's post :0 also if u want a vid rec i know a cool vid where someone replied to a dream apologist who;;; excused exile but it also brings up some interesting points :0

alright, well good luck! my focus was more on the fact that c!dream didn't start punching first until the very end (he did punch back a few times but that's not what i was tracking), and c!tommy was punching him the entire time beforehand, so if you count more "first punches" for the very ending i don't think that would matter that much, but if you have something beforehand that's a discrepancy on my part feel free to tell me :]

i'm not going to watch it for myself because i'm afraid they'd generalize dream apologists based on that one person and make a lot of assumptions that don't apply to me + use possibly insulting, emotionally charged language as a result, but if there are good points you'd like to debate about feel free to send those!

as for relaxx post ( link to the original ) i have a reply written up with my opinions, so yeah;

/dsmp /rp

i was going to put in a first part saying how this is biasedly worded and insinuating that c!tommy was somehow protecting his family by standing up against c!dream during the negotiation (which really was the other way around, him being reckless and endangering them) but i don’t wanna seem aggressive or condescending so i just deleted that. they have emotions about c!tommy and they see him in a certain light thanks to that and i respect that enough not to bother them.

the majority of this is about c!dream anyway, which is more my playing field.

“it didn’t even work because dream didn’t care about spirit”

basic misinterpretation by someone not knowledgeable about the character besides watching c!tommy’s pov. obviously this is not true in the slightest, c!dream has proven time and time again that spirit’s leather is what he cares about the most right after his friends - he traded one of the discs for it, and he had sentimental attachment to the horse. him saying later that he doesn’t is not him revealing anything, or maybe even lying (there’s different interpretations of that scene - in my opinion it’s more of a decision than anything).

of course i do agree that c!dream is manipulative. the reasons for that can be debated, but he is. i wouldn’t call him a “master manipulator” - that’s reserved for people who not even the audience notices are being manipulative despite the obvious red flags, but c!dream is very much manipulative - he’s just the only one people notice, which isn’t really pro of him /j

“dream tells tommy he cut off all attachments, he abandons and stops talking to his friends”

he did stop talking to them… after they abandoned him. small mistake, big difference in the way we see the character.

“he tells tommy among other things that he “does it all because it’s fun and he’s playing with his food” “no, i just like to cause chaos” “i’m doing this so you can have an origin story. the perfect hero origin” “i can make us immortal together!” we don’t have a way to confirm or deny these as true/false since we don’t know what dream’s thinking, but. sadly they appear to line up with his actions.”

no, it doesn’t. it doesn’t line up at all with the way he talks to… anyone else, or with his character in general. it’s an intimidation tactic to cover up his true intentions and make himself out to be more of a threat because he wants people to be afraid of him - that’s what gives him power, basically. threats and ultimatums are what gives him the most control over others even if he has no real power, so it’s important people fear what he could do or what he would be willing to do, rather than what he actually will.

“sapnap actually visited dream in prison and dream seemed to care more about using sapnap to get to ranboo then sapnap himself. ouch.”

have they. have they not watched the video where c!dream spends the first like 98% writing in a book about how he wants c!sapnap and c!george to come visit him again and trying to convince c!sapnap he can get better and be let out and meet again? where he only asks for c!sapnap to deliver the message like half a minute before the end? where are they getting this info from? because this is outrageously incorrect, i’m sorry but what even lead you to that conclusion?

“i am actually fully on board with the idea that dream lied, and that he does still miss and care about his friends! i consider often (because i like angst lol)! when dream finally gets his pov, we might learn about this. because we don’t know what he’s thinking. he could be missing them every second for all we know! it could all be one master plan to make them like him, or save them, or something. dream is innocent until proven guilty. as far as we can tell, he wasn’t lying. and he did cut off his friends.”

i think from everything that’s happened before and after the scene it is obvious he does in fact care about them. he did emotionally isolate himself, he did “cut himself off” (moreso by not reaching out than actually doing anything for himself), yes, but that doesn’t mean he wanted to or that it didn’t hurt him.

“even if it turns out he actually loves them, he still treated them awfully by abandoning them as he did”

i… don’t remember that happening, i’ll be honest. they left him and they never came back, so it’s much more on them than it is on c!dream that their relationship fell apart, although he technically could’ve tried harder. however, that’s only c!sapnap and c!george - he still proved to care about c!punz during before the finale, and even during the prison he still shows attachment to c!techno.

i could give examples of him caring about his friends, and will if asked (that’d take a while because there is a lot of canon evidence but honestly it’d just make me very happy so i wouldn’t mind), but in general it’s not that difficult to see that he… does care about people, as hard as that is to believe, and yes, he did hurt them indirectly because it hurts to see people who used to be important to you spiral to the point of doing terrible things, but i wouldn’t say he made c!sapnap feel terrible, especially during the prison visit when c!dream is very obviously Going Through It.

also i highly dislike the anon’s attitude. there’s no need to be that aggressive, like what the hell dude. everyone can have their own interpretations and opinions. in my eyes, this is sort of biased and partially incorrect, but maybe let people exist on the internet.