#like I can't even be mad at that point. op did their part by tagging properly. I did my part by filtering

[p2ii]

blocking the tag isn't enough I need it to stop existing

[feukt-42]

Yet another post about Leda

You know, its kind of funny, but I've been browsing ER fanfics and fancontent almost daily for a while now (pls help), and one thing I've noticed is that a lot of people just. do not want. to put Leda and the gang in their fanfics. The most out of all Miquella's followers I found was Ansbach with 68 fics on Ao3. Leda herself comes at second with 48 fics and the others just kind of fizzle out after that. By comparison, Messmer, another DLC character, already has 500 fics.

Now, I know that this in large part due to the Messmer horny. But still. There's been 1,372 fics released in the ER tag since the DLC released as of me writing this. That doesn't really explain it. A good explanation might be that souls fans like to dwell on the pre-canon lore era we don't get to see, but even then, I remain disappointed by the lack of Leda in those fics as well. I have read several Haligtree-or-adjacent-focused fics written post SotE and few of them feature Leda or the needle knights, which is honestly a shame because Miquella having his own order of knights (almost counterbalance to the cleanrots), is a very interesting idea, and I am starving for Leda interacting with literally any member of that cast, her whole deal is just so interesting. And its not like Miquella doesn't care about her and she's just a weird fanboy, he gave her a wholeass rune and shit.

"But OP," you might be asking, "why dont you just write your own fic then ?". And you see, that is an excellent point, but I am unfortunately a coward with no confidence in my writing skills. So instead, I decide to make this.

I hereby present :

My Leda facts/analysis/interpretation/theories collection !

I am making this mostly to gush about Leda to spark interest in her as a character and maybe give interested writers who have actual skill to use this to get some inspiration. By no means am I suggesting that this is a guide everyone should follow, this is mostly just my inane ramblings about a character i am obsessed with. Still, if it helps someone make something, that's a net positive in my book.

without further ado, let's get into it.

Part 1 : Miscellaneous Facts

Fact number 1 : Leda doesn't see grace (at least her character model implies so):

I don't remember where it was, but I remember seeing a post that had every SotE NPC's eye colour in it. And a cool thing about that was that only a few characters didn't have the grace of gold in their eyes. And I remember specifically getting to Leda, noble knight of Miquella, and finding out that her eyes do not have a single trace of gold in them. They are grey with a blood-red clouding.

And I just found that so interesting it made me make this post, because what does it mean ? How did she lose it ? Did she ever have it in the 1st place ? Some of you might be thinking it's because she follows Miquella and not the GO, but the funny part is that, again, most of the others have it !

Hornsent has it, Ansbach has it, Freyja has it, Ymir has it, Moore has it, even the fucking madding hand has it. So why doesnt Leda ? (this also goes for some of the other NPCs who don't have it but im not spinning them in my head like a microwave so too bad ig)

Fact number 2 : She definitely killed the other needle knights

Ok so I already talked about this somewhere but I don't remember where so let's just start over from the beginning. The description of the Retaliatory Crossed-Tree states there were once more Needle Knights but now there's only one left. Meanwhile, Leda's sword says it "still reeks with the stench of crusted blood that lingers from the cull of her knightly comrades". Love myself a good "can't wash away the blood" trope.

Anyways, I took those two facts together to mean that she killed the other Needle Knights and talked about it in that alleged prior conversation I mentioned, but someone else replied that her "knightly comrades" could very well mean Hornsent and Ansbach, whom she attempts to cull before you reach Enir-Ilim. And I wanted to disagree with that, but I didn't actually have any evidence except "it's funnier this way" so you know, fair's fair. Except ! No it isn't !

When you help kill Hornsent, she says this :

He never placed his full trust in me, even under the effect of Kindly Miquella's spell. He must've recognised something. The scent of the killer that slept within me. The stench of crusted blood.

Mind you, this is before killing Ansbach, and right after killing Hornsent. The crusted blood from the cull of her comrades cannot be theirs, meaning Leda did kill the other NKs.

Fact number 3 : She deadass just smells like blood the whole time we see her

As just stated, we have 2 items describing how Leda just smells like dried blood. This has endless comedic potential imo, hear me out :

You first meet this dignified, knightly woman in Mohgs arena. You don't notice anything wrong with her smell, because of course it smells like blood in here, have you seen the place ?

The next time you meet her is in Scadu Altus. You begin to think something does smell really bad here. It's still not her however, because the Hornsent and his canonically shitstained loincloth are standing like 10 meters away from you, likely overpowering the scent.

You only get to realize its her constantly smelling like blood after the charm is broken and Hornsent leaves, and that coincides perfectly with the reveal that she's just paranoid as fuck.

10/10 olfactive storytelling. I mostly just put this fact here in honor of that Bloodborne bosses ranked by smell post tbh, that shit lives rent-free in my brain.

Character analysis time ! This bit is more given to interpretation so feel free to disagree on this :

Shes really not that bloodthirsty you guys

Alright, so this one might be a bit surprising given we just went over the fact she smells like blood, but the popular interpretation of Leda doing this because she likes killing and shit is just dead wrong to me. I spoke about it before, but there are so many lines of dialogue that suggest otherwise. Hell, even the sword description says she tried her damnedest to get the blood to come off. Here are some of the most telling lines i found (from fextralife/the github with all the text from SotE) :

-Her describing herself as a "killer" in that line about hornsent and crusted blood earlier, she seems to be very blunt and honest about what she does, almost to a self-deprecating point.

-I know I shouldn't let myself... But I suppose it's only natural to feel the weight of one's deeds at times like these. There is plenty left to be done. And I will see to it. <- what else do i even add here

-I don't enjoy casting suspicion on anyone I've called a comrade. But it's a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things. We must eradicate all doubt...

-None can deny Sir Ansbach was truly a great man. We can be proud, that we were the last opponents he ever faced.

-Sir Ansbach must have considered it an honourable end, being felled by your hand. After all, the good fellow held you in the highest regard. When we speak of it, we may speak with pride—that we were Sir Ansbach's final adversaries

Those lines seem to be alternate versions of the dialogue you get after helping her kill Ansbach. And oh my fucking goodness gracious, i fucking love the second one. Like ghhhhhh, the grief for a comrade and the guilt and the self-justification and the need to move forward and theres somehow even more blood on her sword that she can't ever wash off but she can't stop here, she has to keep doing this because its not about her for her, its not about her feelings or her guilt its all just for the greater purpose shes reaching towards arghhh its so good.

There's also a notable throughline of her shutting her emotions down more and more as she goes, whether its to better do her job or to follow in miquella's footsteps :

-Unruly emotions only lead to misfortune. All the more reason we need someone like Miquella the Kind.

-Man is a compassionate animal, for better or worse.

-So be it. If you insist upon facing Miquella the Kind, Then I will run you through, whoever you might be.

-A single betrayal, enough to turn the tides… Unfortunate, but I will leave you be, for now. 

-I expected things to end differently with you. What a pity

-I suppose it was Sir Ansbach who won you over. Fine. One more heart for my blade to skewer.

Side Note : Those three last ones also read like shes really salty about being betrayed, and that's really juicy because it feels like she trusted you. She trusted you a lot more than most of the others, so it really stings quite a bit to learn you were lying the entire time.

All in all, it really does feel like she has to shut herself down to be a better knight, a more efficient tool for Miquella to wield. It's also quite tragic because she seems to be a compassionate person at heart, she welcomes you into the club, she constantly tries to understand the reasonings for other people's actions, and she tries to find ways to let those she suspects off the hook :

-The hornsent, hmm. On one hand, he trusts Miquella the Kind to bring salvation to his people. With the enchantment lifted, his vengeful passions may once again ignite, but surely he'd be mindful of Kindly Miquella's promise... <- this reads like her trying to convince herself she doesn't have to kill him

It's also very interesting because despite that, she really doesn't seem to be much of a people person :

-But for this very reason, Thiollier is incapable of betrayal. St. Trina's love for Kind Miquella is boundless. She is, after all, his other half. Or perhaps her feelings go beyond even that. Even if she was left behind, I doubt her heart would waver. <- she's just deadass wrong about Thiollier and St Trina

-If you don't meet her before the charm breaks, she does a really awkward introduction and then immediately starts infodumping about her crippling paranoia and zealotry

-Ansbach straight up just tells you : So, you've taken Lady Leda's side. I'm glad she stands with an ally. She tends to overestimate the burden she might carry alone. This is straight up just "oh nice, you finally made a friend, im so glad for you". This implies that Ansbach didn't believe Leda really had anyone on her side before then, and she kinda doesn't tbh. No one is really here because of Leda in the final battle, Dane is here for Miquella, Freyja is here for Radahn, Moore is here to cope with existence, and Hornsent just has an (understandable) hate boner for everything Golden Order. She doesn't really have any friends.

(Also shoutout to Ansbach for being concerned about the people trying to kill him, he really is the goat fr. Also: I've utterly failed you both... No wait grandpa its not your fault im so sorry)

--the funniest moment in the DLC imo : I've come to a realisation... There's ample evidence... Without Kindly Miquella's influence... I'm quite mistrustful of others...

Ah yes of course, the trust issues. Where do I even start.

This woman has nothing but contempt for mankind as a species. She is, as stated earlier, compassionate and tries to be nice to people but she constantly assumes the worst of everyone as a reflex. Her trying to find a way not to kill Hornsent is only because she wholeheartedly believe he will be the worst version of himself as a baseline, and thus thinks of him as a threat who must be dealt with.

-I'm afraid Sir Ansbach will have to be next. He claims he hasn't the spirit to take up his sword again, But in his day, he was the feared commander of the Pureblood Knights, who cleaved open Miquella the Kind with his blood blade. But I doubt it'll be very long... Before he recalls, as I have, the cascading sheets of blood. <- no trust at all

-her dialogue about you "turning on her" also feel like she's resigned about it, like someone who came in expecting failure and was still disappointed, like why did i even try, i should really know better.

-That aside, man is by nature a creature of conquest. They were never saints. They just happened to be on the losing side of a war. <- the classic. What else needs to be said. These are the words of someone who takes war, violence and hatred as a given.

And that leads me to my next point. I think Leda has had a very violent life overall. Some of the shit she says sounds too specific to just be a generalisation:

-But vengeance changes a man.

-Unruly emotions only lead to misfortune.

-Before he recalls, as I have, the cascading sheets of blood.

-One more heart for my blade to skewer.  

-The scent of the killer that slept within me.

This all sounds like she's talking from experience, and there's also her skills as a knight : she has the highest hp pools of the gank squad and can 2-3 shot most players. I know gameplay =/=lore but Freyja respects the hell out of her: Lady Leda and honourable Ansbach are of a special breed.

It's a very interesting combination of an extremely skilled knight who is very good at killing, has presumably been living a very violent existence and who trusts no one but herself, but who also hates having to kill and feels really guilty about it, despite having to do it for the sake of her cause.

And I believe that is the crux of her purpose, and why she is going through so much to fulfill it at any cost:

Leda believes intelligent beings are inherently flawed , and can never be trusted to do anything but make each other suffer. Leda is tired of inflicting and receiving violence, and sees little purpose in seeing the good in others. Leda would have probably made a terrific Lord of Frenzied Flame with how little hope she has.

But instead, she found Miquella. Miquella, who dreams of an age of compassion and who is in a position to achieve it, Miquella, who was raised in an order built and maintained through violence and grew to abhor it. Miquella, who Leda probably sees herself in, who Leda trusts blindly and unconditionally, for whom Leda is ready to commit any atrocity, no matter how it makes her feel, because he is her lifeline. He is her very last hope, the only solution short of complete annihilation she can see for mankind to reach pace.

So what if that peace is forced, is all of this suffering truly worth what little free will we can exert onto our world ? Leda has seen what mankind does with its free will, and she is tired of it.

She doesn't care if she lives to see it, she doesn't care if she has to kill every last part of herself in order for the world to see peace. No one will miss her anyway, she's nothing but a blood-soaked murderer. It doesn't matter if she likes these people, friendship and trust aren't worth all this senseless violence.

So she'll keep killing and killing and culling, until her blade is dull with crusted blood and every last obstacle to Miquella's age of compassion is gone. That's what a Needle knight does, is it not ? Kindly Miquella fashioned us as his needles to quell all, to ward away all.

And if Miquella doesn't understand her, it doesn't matter. He's far too good to understand the sacrifices necessary. She'll do what he can't. The other needle knights did not understand this, they were too naive to do what has to be done, so they were a liability. Don't think about their betrayed looks of terror, don't think about the cloying stench of blood sticking to your footsteps, this is your burden, this is what you deserve. You already knew you couldn't trust anyone, why would this be different ?

If Miquella must cast away parts of his very being to have this world then so can you. So sever that part of yourself that says you should be nice, that you should trust those willing to help, it only makes things worse. It will all be worth it in the end.

Phew, i kind of went apeshit while writing that last part. I hadn't really planned all that honestly.

To conclude this essay, I'd like to point out a really fun parallel to draw here. In this analysis, I have described my interpretation of Leda as a very skilled self-loathing blood-soaked knight who is tired of their endless crusade and yet is endlessly pushed forward by their utter devotion to their god, their salvation made flesh, whom they will shield for the atrocities committed in their name by being the sole person to blame. If that doesnt remind you of Messmer, then i think ill just curl up into a ball and yell very loudly.

Thanks for reading till the end of this absolutely nightmarishly long ramble, let me know if you liked it ! And don't hesitate to send any Leda fics you find or write along the way !

[theflyindutchwoman]

I got asked this question and loved it so much, I wanted to open it up to the group.

If you could choose 5 Chenford scenes to rewrite, which would you choose, and how would you rewrite them?

Oooh thank you for 'tagging' me, Becca ♡ It is a great question! Let's see…

4.17 - The ending So technically, this isn't a Chenford scene… But this is partly why I would want it to be rewritten. Let's start with the most egregious part : having Lucy apparently forgive Chris and act like he hadn't just callously triggered her… or like she hadn't just watched the video recording her own death… That ending bothered me so much. Ideally, I wish she would have kicked him to the curb - or, at least, ask for some space after what he did… and I would have loved a final scene between her and Tim. One where she would have confided in him about watching the cam footages, where they would have talked about that day and her trauma… I love that she was able to work through it all by herself, that she found her voice so to speak and refused to play Rosalind's mind games… But somehow, I can't help but think that not having a single Chenford scene was a missed opportunity.

5.04 - The ending Since we're on that topic… Now, this was an even bigger missed opportunity. I still can't believe that we didn't get a scene between Lucy and Tim following Rosalind's death. And by that, I mean, a proper scene with some emotions and some feelings… I get that during the episode, they were too busy trying to find a way to save Bailey. I also get that things were still awkward between them. But come on, I don't believe for a second that this would have stopped Tim. This is the same man who didn't even think before grabbing her hand in the middle of their undercover op when they found out about Rosalind's escape… the same man who was panicking when Lucy was radio silent… I needed that same energy here. What we got instead was a bit too cold for me.

5.13 - Missing scene : the morning after You have no idea how much I was hoping for this scene… Something soft and domestic… with a reference to the DOD tattoo!

5.16 - Their fight about the five-player trade That scene still puzzles me. It felt forced and clunky. We didn't really get to see Tim's perspective and why he was mad at Lucy. In the shop, it sounded like he was upset with how her move would reflect on him… But in his office, they only talked about her going behind his back. So, in the end, it felt superficial. I'm not saying he was wrong by the way… I just wish his point of view could have been explored more. Both of their perspectives actually. Especially since Lucy paid a hefty price in the end. I guess the point was to show the cracks in their foundation, but it could have been done in a better way.

6.01/6.02 - Their fight Lucy's anxiety and potential doubts about UC were just swept entirely under the rug and the narrative simply focused on Tim's own issue with UC. But one issue doesn't negate the other. There were two problems here and only one got addressed - and barely at that. After all the crumbs from s5, all the times Tim walked away from having a real conversation on the topic, I needed more than 'I will deal with this' / 'we'll figure it out'. It's great that he was finally honest with himself but it still didn't go any further than that. And then, there's Lucy. I was hoping her anxiety would be the precursor for a bigger discussion about Lucy's future and her mental health, about her feelings about UC outside of Tim… but nope. Her spiraling was already forgotten in 6.02. And it is a bit frustrating.

[tarajenkins]

It's that time again

Time to make a massive post for my thoughts on the Lord Vauthry side of the new Encyclopaedia 3! ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Spoiler alert: they aren't positive at all, lmao As it turns out, there is a convenient cover-our-ass disclaimer right off that this book is diegetic. The information in it is supposed to have been gleaned from the Scions. The Scions who, especially in the case of Eulmore's ~dark secrets~, would know jack shit about fuck all.

Admittedly, Hydaelyn should've known at least some of this through the death of her last Oracle, but for whatever reason it slipped her mind to tell us any of it in-game. Whoops!

Or maybe she was relying on that child to be the stopgap against the Rejoining happening too soon, like Selch. She could've at least given credit where it was due, if so. >:T

Twitter had a huge pearl-clutching shitfit the other day about that Oracle's death, which boiled down to "EW GROSS FATTY BEAT A CHILD TO DEATH OMG". The OP showed a screenshot of the page which mentions that Vauthry attacked the Oracle after having a nightmare that she would kill him. But they chose not to link the FIRST part for whatever reason, where it stated the Oracle in question had been fighting Sin Eaters alongside Ran'jit before Vauthry was even born. So unless this Oracle was an infant slayer of Sin Eaters, Vauthry was the child in that scenario--at age TWELVE. A twelve-year-old somehow defeated Hydaelyn's avatar, who was a skilled fighter trained by Ran'jit himself. (Ran'jit was a Master Assassin at five years old, btw. No, really.)

That said, the fanbase in that post naturally bought the OP's failure to math the way Estinien buys his hair ties: like suckers. Players were parroting the misinformation via solo posts and showing their entire ass on fatphobia in this character's tag all day. And, of course, where the fandom forgives and forgets the atrocities of almost every other character, people suddenly seemed very invested in making Vauthry enjoyers EXPLAIN THEMSELVES because this character did THIS.

When that was called out for the glaring hypocrisy, one poster replied it's just that "people are shocked at child abuse suddenly being mentioned and relevant."

Except child abuse has ALWAYS been mentioned and relevant in this game. It also applies to Vauthry himself. Emet-Selch essentially killed Vauthry before he was even born, dooming an infant to a life of madness and violence by fusing the baby with a Lightwarden. His father groomed him on lies for a power grab, Ascians further manipulated him in his madness to raise the Virtues, Ascend Gaia's parents, and who knows what else. What would you call that, if not abuse? Thank Emet-Selch for the previous Oracle being murdered. That wasn't going to happen with a 12-year-old who wasn't corrupted by a Lightwarden.

But, let's be real. All the derision of the character's weight during that Twitstorm made it extra obvious what makes him ~problematic~ to them. For their faves, it's "it's just fiction uwu" or the classic ~moral relativism~. For Vauthry, it's rabid foaming because it's clearly a Moral Failing to enjoy THAT character, and we who do must be harassed for it! Case in point, the Twitter OP even pulled out the old uwu ~at least I'm not a ~Vauthry shipper uwu" chestnut, I kid you not. At least, rabid foaming on behalf of vidya game children everywhere until I asked if it was finally time to discuss how many pixel children were murdered by the Rejoinings or Garlean occupation, for a start. Kids freezing in the Brume, etc. Kids made monsters by corrupting them in the womb. You know. A Tuesday. Crickets, then.

"I can't imagine Vauthry ever being a child", someone else posted.

They showed him as a baby in his mother's arms, in the Echo flashback. It's not hard. But I guess it's easier to dehumanize a fat character than it is to think a little.

If anyone else wants to be pissed at me saying all this as they were years ago, I really, really can't be arsed to care. It's rare NOT to see this character's fatness derided in just about any discussion of him. It sure was in his Twitter tags the other day. And, well. Every day. If you want to prove me wrong, though, confront that behavior when you see it, make shutting it down the norm, instead of whining how I'm "too rude" and so that invalidates my points somehow. No shit I'm rude when this "great community" has all the wit of bullies on a playground. Go tone police them instead, maybe.

ANYWAY

On the plus side, some of this new sorta-lore does seem to still back up some of my original in-game theories, but he was already twisted by the corruption from birth. There's no denying that anymore at least, no more hearing stuff from the fanbase like "uwu Emet-Selch gave him a GIFT, Vauthry just abused it uwu". (Who am I kidding, the last part will still happen.) Also, since the actual writers of this book don't stand behind anything written in it, I can still give him the happy ending in AUville that he should have had canonly. ⸜( ˙˘˙)⸝ ♡

What the purpose of this book is when nothing in it is concrete, I have no idea. But if Square can't back off their unimaginative fatphobia, can they at LEAST make Eulmore make sense?

NOPE ( ᐛ )b

Vauthry's father was named Veronth Mudthane, and in this retcon they imply he took more than a minute to decide that allowing a rando to corrupt his baby without asking his wife first was a swell deal. "The Scions" should've at least known the Echo shown in-game just…completely refutes that. But this book also has a blurb for Anogg but shows a portrait of her brother Konogg, so I honestly have to wonder if "The Scions" even played this game.

Vauthry's mother, as per usual, is not given a name or otherwise addressed at all. Because reasons.

"A euphoric Veronth went on to spoil his offspring in extravagant fashion, showering this "new god" with adoration bordering on worship. Such treatment would warp any child's mind, and Vauthry was no exception: he grew up willful, wanton, and possessed of an awful temper."

No exceptions except: Alphinaud, Alisaie, Nanamo, the fandom darlings of Ishgard (arguably excluding Emmanellain but for some reason he always gets a free pass), Hildibrand, Sark Malark, I'm sure I am forgetting some but you get the idea! There's only one difference, I wonder what it could be--

reads book's description of Vauthry's "corpulent chest"

--ah, right. The shitty tropes barely disguised as storytelling. Double standards! It's not just for jackasses in the fanbase anymore! "The Scions" are trying to lay this on "spoiling", when the child was fused with a Lightwarden. Ask Titania how that went for them.

The book goes on to say Vauthry murdered both of his parents at age nine in a fit of temper. You read that right: age nine. With witnesses. Somehow. They go on to mention the witnesses may have been okay with it perhaps because of "a growing mastery over his Lightwarden powers of domination". You know, those powers of domination that didn't exist in-game when Alphinaud chastised the Eulmorans for willfully ignoring the plight of the rest of the world. Those powers of domination that, when they finally were exerted in-game, resulted in the Eulmorans staggering around like drunks, muttering and supremely useless.

In-game, Vauthry wasn't "dominating" anything until he sprouted meatwings and fled to Gulg. Otherwise, Tristol would never have been able to ask to leave? Alphinaud would've been affected, even if the WoL was shielded by the Blessing of Light. Kai-Shirr would have chopped his arm off gladly. The Eulmorans would be blameless for everything Alphinaud and the narrative blamed them for.

In any case, both in this book and in-game, the writers completely gutted their own narrative of Vauthry and/or Eulmore being symbolic of All Things Bad. It's pretty impressive. Vauthry was corrupted by a Lightwarden, like Titania; his mind and behavior were compromised by this from birth. And if he DID control the Eulmorans the whole time, then they had no free will, either.

The book claims Vauthry used Ascension as a cruel game and delighted in ~revealing the truth~ to his victims as they became Sin Eaters. But they never explained why there would be a need to hide any truth with this latest spin on the dumpster fire that is the Eulmore arc.

In-game, there were rules to even request Ascension of him, and it was limited to and at the discretion of the formerly rich free citizenry. Workers could be granted it, but only if their patron vouched for them. The free citizens apparently had to wait until they were at their natural end, as per the Warbler's patron. The random disappearance of so many people from the stagnant population of that tower over the years would cause a panic by any stretch of the imagination. Word would get out, because workers on the inside were shown to be able to visit loved ones in Gate Town. Only allowing Ascension at the natural end of life would cover all that part up, except Vauthry was only 29 years old. The opportunities for Ascension: The Game would've been about as often as Minfilias spawned in that one century. (Which, according to the game, was totally hundreds on hundreds of Minfilias!) Either way makes zero good sense. The convoluted lengths they went through for the sake of these cheap fatphobic tropes is staggering, I s2g.

Meol still doesn't make sense, either. They doubled down on the "fat character eats people" trope in the book, but tbh I've come to expect unoriginality from anything directed by Naoki "Diversity would be unrealistic in my giant magic summon fantasy game" Yoshida.

Sin Eaters are said to have been found in cages next to a butcher table sort of setup, even though in-game, Sin Eaters have no bones, blood, or meat. In fact, the sparklies they dissapate into upon death are rather important to the narrative, as that is what turns people into new Sin Eaters. Meol, you know, that dish which was still entirely optional, and so really contradictory to using it as some master plan to MC the populace.

TL;DR: This is what happens when you phone in lazy tropes instead of a story for a last-minute arc and call it a day. Imagine what we could've had if they'd done some actual thoughtful writing. Also TL;DR:

Mood, Your Lordship

[escort-quest]

Please gonch responsibly

(I haven't tagged this post as unreality since it's discussing Goncharov on a meta level.)

Make sure, as everyone has been saying, to tag posts like this as "unreality"

Don't vandalise official sources like Wikipedia and IMDB as though Goncharov was a real movie.

If someone asks you "is Goncharov actually real movie?" you tell them no. This is improv, not gaslighting.

Generally, I would avoid sending asks about Goncharov unless the user has already expressed interest in it.

Longer explanation of each point under the cut: please read the long version before you comment in case I answered your question / already clarified something!

Firstly, in case you're still struggling to get a straight answer from your mutuals: yes, Goncharov (1973) is a joke tumblr made up. It's not a real film, although people are now constructing content for it as though it was.

And since this thing is beginning to get out of hand now (which is only to be expected) I'd like to bring up some improv / alternate reality etiquette:

so those who might be triggered by it can avoid it.

Keep it to tumblr. If other sites want to report on this phenomenon, that's fine, but all the "in-character" (for lack of a better word) stuff should stay here. It's important that there are actually sources of truth out there for those who need them. (I know Wikipedia sometimes features incorrect, outdated or biased information, but actively lying on Wikipedia to deceive people is still a dick move.)

You can post as if it was real, you can talk about it as if it was real (that's the game!) but if someone explicitly asks you "is it real?" you say no. This game is only fun as long as it's an improv game: the fun part is suspending our disbelief together. It's not, actually, fun to lie to people until they question whether they're going insane. This is a co-op game, not PvP. I hope I don't have to explain to you why deliberately lying to someone, even about something harmless, when they trust you to give you the correct answer and came to you for help, is a dick move. (Same thing with satire, actually. The Onion doesn't have to tell you that it's satire because that would ruin the joke, but if someone genuinely asks you "did XYZ really happen??" and you lie to them, that's not satire. That's lying.)

This one is more of a politeness thing than the others, and obviously if the person is a friend that you know would enjoy the joke you can decide you know best here, but we've already made poor old Neil sick of it. If someone has made their own Goncharov post or reblogged some of it, it's fair to say they're interested in participating. It's unfair to get mad that Goncharov is everywhere right now: it's mostly people having fun! But it's also unfair to make it impossible for people to avoid it if they want to.

This isn't a Goncharov hate post- I love the whole thing, I think it's awesome, I'm absolutely delighted every time I see references to it. I think it's an incredible demonstration of human collaboration and I could make a whole post about that alone. This post was made in the interest of keeping it fun.

Obviously I'm not your mother and I can't make you do anything, this is just advice: please gonch responsibly! :) If you're already gonching responsibly then carry on!

[lvicevlk]

tag roundup because there are some good ones:

#THIS POST AND THE OP’S TAGS ARE WONDERFUL#CHEF’S KISS#literally this is so good and how i see all mdzs characters#i am deeply sympathetic for jgy and nmj but also the two of them both have valid reasons to not fuck with each other#i feel very bad for jgy and how he died and it was very unfair but also nhs absolutely has a reason to hate his guts#esp the ‘people think nhs was blind to how nmj treated him’#very much like. not how that works!#nhs loved his brother he grieves for his brother he is going to turn jgy’s own tactics against him#god the nmj parts of this post are getting me#nhs did not give a whole song and dance abt the nuances behind the saber spirit and how it is not easy to abandon ur family path#only for people to turn around and say ‘nmj could have just not done that’#like that’s not the point#that’s like saying at any point wwx couldn’t just stopped following the ghostly path#or jgy could’ve just stopped following his father#that’s not the point!!! who gives a fuck abt what a character can or cannot do#they can do anything! that doesn’t mean anything!#what matters is if they /would/ do something. would it make sense for them to do so.#jgy won’t give up his place in the family. wwx won’t stop cultivating guidao. nmj won’t give up the nie family cultivation.#they have other options but they are options they will not take#and that’s why these characters are so interesting and multi-dimensional and why i feel for basically all of them#mdzs (via @luobingmeis​)

#YES this is worded so perfectly#mdzs gives everyone brain worms because the actions of each character makes perfect sense in the context of the story#which makes it so easy to understand why they made the choices they did!#like that one picture review of the untamed ‘it’s a masterwork in character writing. youll never think of anything else again’#the untamed (via @tamakey​)

#OMG THIS#FREAKING ALL OF THIS#that's what I love about this story and why I get so frustrated with a part of fandom at times#these characters are DEEP and REALISTIC#if you put yourself in their pov then their actions Makes Sense#no matter how morally questionable or plain wrong they look from an objective perspective#no one is purely good or evil#they are HUMAN#and I can't help sympathize with almost everybody there#bc their decisions are understandable given their unique circumstances and even personalities#like how can ppl get mad at such a rich mess!!#grandmaster of demonic cultivation#mo dao zu shi (via @mostlikelytofangirl​)

#mdzs meta#YEAH. just. yeah. so much.#this is something that happens a lot when I talk about why I find a character sympathetic that. bugs me.#its that people will read all that and reply with. well that doesn't mean he didn't hurt X character w their actions!! and Im like ??#yes bitch I /know/ that's why I literally never said 'everyone they hurt should forgive them' or even should have considered their#perspective or the fact that they were having a hard time NO lmao?? Im just saying from a. readerly. narrative standpoint!#understanding why the character did what they did/how they're conceptually sympathetic/how they reason to themselves#is important to understanding them AND much more interesting as a take then ''just an asshole for no good reason ''#but I just wish. it was easier to talk about why someone is like that™ in a. thinking fun analysis thoughts. way. without people jumping to#reply ''well that doesn't make it ok though!'' like. I never said that and in fact thats not the point at ALL#also mood OP your tags - I relate to JGY a lot more overall but one thing like#if someone pulled the novel verse fake suicide JGY does I too would literally never trust anything they said or did again much less#let them appeal to *any* sense of sympathy or desperation like. no no no that is allowed one (1) time & then idgaf why u did it. NEVER AGAIN (via @woobifiedvillain​)

#and that's how i can be an apologist or characters who are seemingly diametrically opposed#i always laugh a little whenever people turn sympathy of jgy into hate of huaisang becuase he 'should have realized nmj was mistreating him#if someone killed one of my siblings nuance is going out of the window for me too sorry y'all#complaining and whining about fandom#only a little bit tho#mdzs#nie huaisang#nie mingjue#meng yao#jin guangyao  (via OP)

See the thing about me is that I do care about characters' morality but it's more in the sense of wanting to understand their moral framework and why they take the actions they do. And because of that i'm always sympathetic to morally grey characters and try to look at things from their perspective, but I don't expect the other characters in the story- who unlike me are actually affected by each other's actions- to feel the same way.

For example, I care deeply about nie mingjue and the inherent tragedy of how he's been trapped by his own circumsances and his genuine will to do the right thing and can see how his reliance on punitive justice was created by the environment he's grown up in and the responsibility he holds towards his people and i don't think, in any stretch of the word, that he deserved to die or that it was in fact necessary to kill him.

However i do not except jin guangyao, guy who was just kicked down the stairs, to see all the nuances here.

In the same sense, i can see how jgy's "self preservation above all else" mindset was forged by a world that expected him to die for their convenience how his avoidance of accounability for his actions was created out of necessity because any punishment levied against him would be disporportionate due to his heritage. How punishing him wouldn't actually make the world a better place or him a better person and how his violence is always reactive and that as long as he feels safe eneough to do so, the thing that he really wants to do is help people.

But I don't expect Huaisang, guy whose brother just got murdered, to give a fuck about any of that.

And I think this is why I'm annoyed with a lot of "is [insert character] a good/bad person" discourse because a lot of it gets framed as "If A is bad, the other characters in universe should hate them. If A is good, the other characters should be sympathetic to them, and if they're not then they're bad." And that is just... not how this works.

[godwithwethands]

Hey, OP here. Okay let me get this straight.

You're valid for not liking S9 and 10. You're valid for not liking Baal. I get it. Those two seasons are different. Baal is a villain. Okay.

You're valid to be mad at him for what he did to Jack. Okay. I get it. I love Jack too.

However I'd like you guys not making shit up just to prove your point. Tell me where the hell you're seen a redemption story for Baal because I sure as hell would adore to see it. Have we even watched the same show? In S9-10, SG-1 and Baal """teamed up""" (as Daniel said, Baal was just ''tagging along for the ride'' since he tricked SG-1 into thinking he had useful intel to find the Sangreal) once in The Quest and that's all. Baal has always been a villain and died a villain in Continuum. Where is the redemption story? Once again if you find it, please show it to me.

Also y'all seem to forget that Baal was a scumbag from the start, he didn't magically became evil when Jack set foot in his fortress. He has enslaved, tortured, murdered millions before he tortured and murdered Jack, so that was just like a regular Thursday to him. Nothing out of the ordinary. The events of Abyss were not the worst thing he did.

And to address the first tags y'all agreed with: he's not a comedic villain? I'm sorry but he is. Two thousand years old genocidal warlord with a god complex. Being a baby about the cold. Being dragged around by the collar by one he would consider a slave. Being trapped for 3 days in the forest without water nor food because he's so stingy he wouldn't put his oh, so dear to his heart little knife in a box. Cloning himself then getting into a fistfight with his own clone (even if this little show is part of a plan). Trying to use earthling sayings and failing miserably like the alien he is. Commenting his enemy's last words to him then proceeding to make a pun as he slays him (with a earthling saying on top of that?). Let's not forget the iconic: his misogynistic ass getting punched into cooperating with a woman, by said woman.

Maybe we don't share the same sense of humor, but to me, Baal is hilarious. And there are a bunch of other little moments where he really makes me laugh. He's a really funny villain, and I'm sorry if you can't see past Abyss, because you're missing out on Baal's potential.

Anyway. I originally made this gifset because I love watching Baal and Sam being mean to each other (in a shippy way or not, no matter, I just like to watch them interact). And I'd like it very much if people stopped trashtalking on a gifset that's so dear to me. You can trashtalk aaalll you want on your own posts and with your friends, go ahead! But keep this off my posts. I don't make gifs to read about how you hate the seasons/episodes/scenes/characters depicted in said gifs.

Sam: 1 | Ba’al: 0