#kimye 2016

[ilostyou]

it's so FRUSTRATING having all these ideas jumbled in your head and knowing they could make a great paper but not knowing if you'll be able to pull together enough sources to back it all up or to be able to organize the ideas in a way that makes sense and reads like a good paper

[taytaay131313]

DEBUNKING THE “KARLIE BETRAYED TAYLOR BELIEF”

Disclaimer: this post is taken from Reddit and it was put together and posted by this user : OddDragonfruit6179 I just made it into Tumblr post.

This is for people who might be new to Gaylor side of the fandom and to those questioning the “betrayal” surrounding Taylor Swift and her masters and Karlie Kloss. This is also an answer to anonymus messages about the line in the song It’s time to go believed to be about Karlie Kloss / When the words of a sister come back in whispers that prove she was not in fact what she seemed not a twin from your dreams she's a crook who was caught.

PSA - Personally, I exist as a Gaylor because I love interpreting Taylor's Queer themes that don't specifically revolve around certain muses & the beautiful way they can exist on their own. I am also not 'Late-Stage'-Anything, haha. But, saying that, it's amost impossible to ignore the elephant (or Giraffe) in the room when it comes to Karlie & Taylor's storytelling since Reputation. It seems there are some very firmly-held beliefs about 'what happened' (including Gaylors), and a lot of them revolve around the idea that Karlie 'betrayed' Taylor during the Master's Heist era of June/July 2019, 'feeding information to & siding with Scooter Braun' - which are often used to debunk Gaylor interpretations as a blanket shut-down. Given the latest drama with Selena & how she recently spoke up about slandering Taylor on TikTok, it reminded me of how we have a lot of evidence from both Taylor & Taylor's inner circle that this was probably not actually the case, and how quickly rumours & interpretations get adopted as 'fact' without any proof - something I think Taylor's also tried to get across with her music, too. I wanted to do a little deep-dive into this side of things to remind us all that we simply cannot believe everything we hear - there's always a lot more to celebrity stories than the loosly-held general beliefs :)

What was the big 'betrayal' in 2019?

If you're new here, welcome! The supposed 'betrayal' revolves around Taylor's Master's Heist in summer 2019, when Scooter Braun (millionaire celebrity manager) bought Taylor's entire back catalogue of music, leaving her without ownership of all her previous music. Taylor was at a turning point in her career, having just ended the 13 year contract that she'd been tied into since she was 15, and was just about to release her first fully-owned album 'Lover' She wanted to buy all her past music, allowing her to have full freedom & ownership going forward - yet it was allegedly sold to Scooter from underneath her, meaning he would be the one profiting from all of her life's work from Debut to Reputation & leaving her without any ownership rights of all her past work. (This is now why she's re-recording her 'Taylor's Versions' of her past albums.) How does Karlie tie into this? Karlie had been a huge part of Taylor's life since 2013. As Gaylors, most of us believe they were much more than friends & Karlie was the main muse for Reputation (2017) & multiple songs on Lover (2019). Karlie had signed with Scooter Braun in 2015. In 2016, Scooter was involved in the Kimye 'Taylor Swift is over controversy', being included in a photo Justin Bieber posted online to taunt Taylor (which Justin later said Scooter had nothing to do with). As she was Scooter's client, Karlie was immedietly caught up between Scooter Vs Taylor rumours, leading her to tweet this:

In early 2017, as the Kimye drama grew, Taylor stopped sharing her private life on social media. From 2017-2018 she releases Rep, goes on tour, ends her contract with Big Machine & begins working towards releasing Lover. All the while, rumours are consistently following both Taylor & Karlie about 'whether or not they're still friends' because they'd not been seen together. A lot of people believe they were still in each other's lives (there are multiple masterposts going into the possible romantic side of things), but the narrative is all over the place: In March 2018, Karlie tells the NY Times: 'don't believe everything you read' & that she and Taylor as still 'very close'. In July 2018, Karlie announces that she's engaged to Josh Kushner and Taylor doesn't publicly comment. In August 2018, Karlie attends the Rep Tour & is brought to the front pit when Taylor sings 'Dress'. In October 2018, Karlie has her first 'wedding' with Josh (up for personal interpretation if this is Lavender or not) - Taylor doesn't publicly comment. The same month, Karlie's YouTube shows her apartment is still full of photos of Taylor & her family/friends (not Josh):

In the first half of 2019 Taylor is finishing writing Lover, which include themes indicative that she is extremely up/down, full of anxiety & has push a 'lover' away: "I'm terrified if you ever walk away" (Cornelia Street), "We were crazy to think this could work, but we might just get away with it" (False God), don't wanna keep secrets just to keep you" (Cruel Summer), " jump from the train, I ride off alone" (The Archer), " blew things out of proportion, why'd I have to break what I love so much? I need to say hey, it's all in my head, I'm the one who burned us down, sorry that I hurt you, I don't do this to you, I don't wanna loose this with you" (Afterglow), "Saying goodbye is death by a thousand cuts, I look through the windows of this love, even though we boarded them up, chandalier's still flickering here" (DBTC)

What actually happened in Summer 2019?

Taylor begins promoting the release of Lover. In April 2019 she unveils a butterfly wing mural which looks extremely similar to Karlie's butterfly wings from the VS Show where they met & then continues to be ridiculously gay-on-main. She releases You Need To Calm Down, where she's the Sherriff of the Gay trailor park with Bi hair, and ME! on Lesbian Visibility Day... there's endless flagging in clothing/theming. She was getting very 'loud'. Many people believe she may have been leading up to 'coming out' officially, either with the album and/or the Miss Americana documentary that was in the process of being filmed. On 23rd/24th June, Karlie has her second 'wedding' (a big party). Taylor doesn't attend. Scooter does (he's close friends with Josh).

Within a week after he's at this party with Josh & Karlie, Scooter then flies to Nashville and completes the sale of Taylor's masters. The sale is partially funded by the Carlyle Group, who is in business with Kushner Companies (Josh's family's business).

On 30th June (the following weekend), Taylor announces that the Master's Heist has happened & how distraught she is. Lots of celebrities speak up against Scooter & many of his clients (Demi Lovato, Justin Bieber etc) speak up in defence of him. Karlie remains silent & doesn't make a statement either way.

On 3rd July, Perez Hilton starts stirring shit by saying that 'Taylor is no longer close to Karlie because she found out Karlie was telling things about her & her career to Scooter! It began circulating that 2 of Taylor's close friends, Ashley Avignone & Claire Winter had liked the tweet, 'confirming' that this was the case to those that follow gossip sites. Karlie is then photographed at events/lunches/trips with Scooter multiple times throughout the rest of 2019 - further ‘cementing' this idea for fans.

The final blow for this theory came when Taylor released Folkmore (2020): in the song 'Time to Go' she sings "When the words of a sister come back in whispers, that prove she was not in fact what she seemed, not a twin from your dream she's a crook who was caught", which many fans immedietly assumed was about Karlie.

Where are the cracks in all this?

Taylor's other friends: Obviously, social media is only a partial glimpse of a story, but it is very suggestive of behind the scenes information. The reaction to the current Selena controversy was what reminded me of her friendship with Taylor, after she stuck up for Taylor on a video of Hailey Bieber. Selena's been very close to Taylor since they were teenagers. In October 2019, shortly after the Master's Heist, she did an interview where she was in tears talking about how important her friendship with Taylor was, and how much she loved her & her family:

...so she would've been very much on Taylor's 'side' if Taylor has had an awful betrayal from Karlie, right? Yet in November 2019, just 5 months after the Masters Heist , she's very publicly supporting Karlie, too:

..and they have both consistently continued to support eachother ever since, right up to Selena's latest birthday:

In terms of social media, many of Taylor's current close friends & people she's worked closely with continue to follow Karlie (despite following a very limited number of people). This includes Taylor's oldest childhood friend, Abigail (who only follows 285 people - Karlie still follows her back), Haim The Band, as well as Danielle & Alana Haim on thier individual accounts, and Sadie Sink:

Karlie also continues to follow Taylor herself and Taylor's brother, Austin:

We also have two more of Taylor's very close circle, Ryan Reynolds & Gigi Hadid, liking posts about Karlie's 30th birthday in 2022:

What about Perez Hilton's claims? Baring in mind this is the ONLY 'evidence' that exists to support this story, I tried to find the original tweets about 'Karlie telling things about Taylor to Scooter', and low & behold: they're ALL gone. That includes Perez's & the 'Taylor Swift Updates' tweet that was supposedly liked by Taylor's friends. Gone, deleted, non-existent. Why would they have been deleted if they were true & Taylor wanted that story out there? Who made sure they were, from all accounts involved, and only those? Interesting.

What I did find, however, was some tweets and likes from the same friend, Ashley Avignone, discussing how none of Scooter's clients have been able to speak out against him or leave him because of their contracts (this would include Karlie):

What about Karlie 'siding' with Scooter & continuing to work/hang out with him? There were definitely pictures of Karlie continuing to spend time with Scooter after the Masters Heist. However, she was under contract. She never defended him or tried to reason about what he'd done. In fact, she left Scooter as soon as she possibly could. She hasn't been seen with Scooter since 2019 & she signed a new contract with a different manager in 2021. It's also relevant to note that Taylor's other close friend, Ed Sheeran, was also managed by Scooter at the time & didn't speak up publicly either. Taylor reportedly attended Ed's wedding in September 2019, yet Ed continued to stay with Scooter & publicly party with him well into 2021 (so, clearly, if there is an issue with Karlie it wasn't just because she continued to work with Scooter in 2019).

Last but not least, the music:

Throughout her albums since the Masters Heist, Taylor has consistently written about heartbreak & betrayal in different ways. Although 'It's time to go' has been grabbed by many fans as 'proof' that Karlie betrayed her, but most stories just aren't that simple. Taylor is a storyteller. One song doesn't equate to every emotion/situation that Taylor was feeling. As many of us do, I believe there's a clear arc of Taylor painting a picture throughout multiple songs, of how she thought she had been 'betrayed' & the pain of that, but later realising she was just blaming the person she had loved in order to get through it all. Others have done amazing, full analysis of these songs, but in terms of 'betrayal' specifically: In Hoax we see the raw pain of feeling hurt by the one she loved alongside what happened with the Masters Heist (this song is full of Karlie references & Taylor very clearly says she was writing about both love & the Masters Heist in the LPSS): "My eclipsed sun, this has frozen my ground / You know I left a part of me back in NY / You know it still hurts underneath my scars from when they pulled me apart, but what you did was just as dark, darling this is just as hard."

In Closure, we see that she's harbouring a lot of anger & isn't ready to move forward or past her pride: "Yes I got your letter, it wasn't right the way it all went down, looks like you know that now / I know that it's over, I don't need your closure / I'm fine with my spite / Guilty, guilty, reaching out across the sea that you put between you & me"

In Coney Island, we begin to see her taking accountability for her own role in the relationship breaking down in the first place (which ties in with Afterglow): "Sorry for not making you my centerfold / It gets colder & colder as the sun goes down / What's a lifetime of acheivement if I pushed you to the edge / Did I leave you hanging every single day / Did I paint your bluest skies the darkest gray?"

In Happiness, we see this accountability clashing with the hurt she still feels about the way it all ended, but ultimately acknowledging she can't make Karlie the villain (suggesting she never actually was one) & wants to forgive her whatever role she did play (when she's ready). Hope she'll be a beautiful fool who takes my spot next to you, no sorry, I don't mean that, I can't see facts through all of my fury / I can't make it go away by making you the villain, guess that's the price I pay for 7 years in heaven / All you want from me is the green light of forgiveness, You haven't met the new me yet, but I think she'll give you that"

Later, in The Great War, we see a continuation of reflecting back on the same themes - telling the story of feeling hurt & betrayed, shutting the other person out, but realising the other person was also being equally hurt by it all / was never the person she should've been blaming: "Cursed you as I sleep-talked, tore your banners down, took the battle underground / I drew curtains closed, drank my poison all alone" (processing her pain through putting an end to the loudness of Lover & writing Folkmore). "Somewhere in the haze got a sense I'd been betrayed/ telling me to punish you for things you never did, so I justified it" (Taylor's acknowledging once again that the other person hadn't actually done what she thought they had) "You drew up some good faith treaties / Tears on the letter / My hand was the one you reached for" (could be a callback to the letter' in closure & suggests the person was trying to make peace). "Your finger on my hairpin triggers, soldier down on that icy ground, looked up at me with honour & truth, broken & blue, so I called off the troops" (icy ground could be a callback to 'you have frozen my ground' back Hoax).

So where does that leave us?

Who the hell knows? No one does, but I love reading all the theories when the rest of the music is tied into it all! But in regard to there being a 'betrayal', given how there was never any concrete evidence that Karlie did anything wrong in the first place (& how the only tweets alluding to it have mysteriously dissapeared), the continual association with Karlie from some of the closest people in Taylor's life, Karlie leaving Scooter at the first chance she got & the arc of the 'thought i was betrayed but I was really just heartbroken & being dramatic' story from Taylor, I am now a firm believer that there wasn't a 'big betrayal' from Karlie in regard to the Master's Heist.

The rest of it is all up for guesswork. Taylor definitely felt betrayed by something at first. We know there were already break-up songs on Lover written before the Master's Hiest which suggest Taylor was the one to push her lover away, yet they were still dappled with hope that she'd get them back. Potentially, Karlie had already been pushed away & had sought security in her long-term partnership with Josh/decided to marry him. After the engagement & 1st wedding, this is when we see Taylor's very 'loud' Lover Era - could this have been an attempt to 'prove herself' to Karlie & make a statement about what she was willing to do? However, Karlie was already comitted to Josh & had gone through with the 1st wedding. Within a 1 week period of June 2019, Karlie doubled down on going through with her 2nd wedding to Josh & her manager bought Taylor's Masters, making it extremely risky for Taylor to continue to make a career-changing choice of 'coming out' (if that's what she'd been intending to do). Could it have been orchestrated by Scooter (& Josh?) in order to keep Taylor closeted? Could Josh have been involved financially in order to put a stop to the rumours about Karlie after they'd already comitted to marriage & keep his business deals/ family connections safe from speculation? Could Karlie simply have been trapped in the middle of all of it & torn between her loyalty to both Taylor & Josh, causing an already heartbroken Taylor to 'kick the cat' and initially put the blame on Karlie for the way it all happened? (If you factor in the possibility that both Karlie & Josh might be closeted & had eventually comitted to a consentual Lavender Marriage, it makes the risk of Taylor exposing them even bigger. Josh was tied up in Billionaire conservative circles & relied heavily on his business partnerships in the Middle East & Asia, as well as pressure from the Trump side of the family. We have no idea what kind of pressure he & Karlie may have been under behind the scenes).

Who the hell knows - but if Karlie had directly, intentionally been involved in such a big betrayal to Taylor, I HIGHLY doubt her best friends/family would be having anything to do with her.

Folkmore shows a clear theme of working through different, conflicting emotions, & then in Midnights we're back to seeing the Karlie-coded songs being portrayed as a big, authentic love (not one that was hate-filled or hurtful)...so at the very least, I'm definitley on the team of believing they have worked through whatever they needed to & have drawn a line under it all :) + a little update since the Eras tour started we have seen some of Karlies friends attend the show such as Derek Blasberg (her long time best friend), Cara Delevingne…Gigi Hadid revealed she will attend the Eras tour and go to as many shows as she can and she was just recently seen with Karlie in Mumbai. I hope this post made some things more clear for everyone not knowing this side of the story.

[shitswiftiessay]

i actually hate the “she’s overexposed” discourse, because i don’t think that overexposure is the real issue when it comes to taylor. sure, some people are sick of seeing her face at football games and what not, but the real the problem is the fact that she’s unlikable. and the more she gets “overexposed” the more the curtain falls on her personality, and we see how egotistical, immature, petty, and unlikable she can be. and a lot of people blame the “overexposure” for it but that’s not actually the real problem.

thinking about 2016, and many swifties (and taylor herself it seems) think that taylor was just cancelled and hated overnight, but that wasn’t the case. people ALREADY hated her, and that kimye phone call drama was seen as a golden ticket for a tangible reason to “cancel” her. but she was already massively disliked by a large swathe of the general public because they thought she was a bitch, a mean girl who pretended to be sweet and innocent, fake, etc.

and also… look at the backlash to taylor’s behaviour at the grammys, the things Taylor said in her TIME POTY interview, or her “hey ginny and georgia” tweet a few years ago which caused a lot of backlash and her white feminism was put on full display. this is a woman who basically gives herself bad PR everytime she opens her mouth, because she comes off as an out of touch, egotistical brat. when she stays quiet and focuses on her music (like in the folklore era), she is much more liked by the public.

i also think the “overexposure” discourse is mainly used by swifties who just haven’t quite realised that she’s just not a likeable person but they can’t quite figure out why they don’t like her as much as they used to.

[jewishbarbies]

taylor claims in her TIME interview that her career was taken from her when the kimye situation happened and I’m so tired of her dramatic revisionist history. nothing was TAKEN from her. she gave it up. people are twitter were doing their usual bullshit. no one was severing ties with her, celebs weren’t distancing from her, she wasn’t invited to events, she wasn’t dropped from venues. nothing happened to her career JUST bc of what happened on twitter. she CHOSE to step away and disappear because that’s what she wanted. she could’ve very easily continued on and acted like no one said boo, but instead she made a show of disappearing and reappearing and it BENEFITED her. she’s controlled the narrative from day one and her fanbase has only continued to grow, ignoring worse and worse behavior from her, eating out of the palm of her fucking hand. yet were supposed to believe that 2016 ruined her career? for what? a year? two? she’s more popular than she’s ever been BECAUSE of what happened and how she returned to music. and she CHOSE to walk away from her career for that time.

there’s nothing wrong with needing to take a step back when your mental health needs a break. and pretending that people forced you to take that break so you can hide your struggle and gain sympathy points from your fanbase is disgusting. taylor’s ableism, even self directed, cannot go uncorrected. we all know how she feels about people who need to go to therapy.

[pinkorchidsinspring]

Taylor swifts’ KARMA Album evidence:

Throughout the eras tour Taylor has had pink for Lover on her 7th finger as seen here:

However, in Cincinnati Taylor switched it up between n1 and n2. Taylor had Orange in place of lover.

We could just be clowning around, but this is the same woman who said:

Yeah- nope, so now that we’ve established that we can never be too curious-

Let’s stack up the evidence that karma is a thing shall we?

Her fingernail Easter egg obviously

The song “Karma” closing out every show

The orange door left on the stage at the end of the shows

Her recording at “Electric Lady Studios” all week, -electric just like how she was in light bulbs in the Karma music video.

Electric lady studios being known for producing some of the best rock albums known to man:

The fact that Taylor always fades into her eras, much like how reputation tour ended with color, but Taylor was playing electric guitar at the end of 1989 shows. Very rock esque, yes?

This iconic moment via a Vogue interview a couple months after the 1989 would tour ended, in 2016 over a year and a half before the release of reputation. “Karma is real”.

Not to mention the “bleachella” look that originated because of a vogue covershoot in April 2016. It is assumed that this covershoot was supposed to be PR for “Karma” the album, because reputation won’t come out til October of the next year. -Due to the punk/rocker vibes of all her public outfits during this era.

The clock in “The Man” music video putting (in orange of course) “karma” inbetween “1989” and “Reputation” with the word “missing” above it.

The Orange ensemble in the “look what you made me do” music video

It would make sense that it never ended up being released because of all the kimye drama, Taylor’s rep was “goin’ down” and it wasn’t the ideal time to release an album that wasn’t garenteed to kill the charts via sales like reputation did.

The reappearance of orange, especially on her album symbolizing nails could mean amazing things for karma truthers..🫢

Could Taylor be hinting at the Karma drop?

[evermoredeluxe]

Cold Take on your Dear Reader take: Midnights was as much about her current situation as it was her past lives.

Lavender Haze: self explanatory. She was trying to downplay what she wanted to stay in the lavender haze and it was not working

Maroon: JA is JG but the age appropriate version

Anti-Hero: do I even have to explain this is how she perceived herself

Snow on the Beach: the weirdness of falling for someone at the same time. Wanting to capture that feeling again because it is F***ing beautiful

YOYOK: no explanation needed

Midnight Rain: ostensibly about her HS boyfriend, but the same idea of leaving her career dreams for her life dreams with Joe. What is the balance lost

Question...? Hard to explain this one, but while the muse is decidedly not Joe the vibe is kind of trying to not be seen together when everyone knows you're together

Vigilante Shit: This is where I think things go dual both 2016 and 2020. So this is Kimye and Masters

Bejeweled: leaving Calvin and deciding to get back out there with or without Joe

Labyrinth: falling in love with Joe (2016); falling back in love with him post Hit's Different/Immagetyouback

Karma: karma for all the wrongs that Kimye and Scott/Scooter did

Sweet Nothing: start of their relationship (think Delicate and you must like me for me) and then how it became an albatross later on (all that you ever wanted was nothing)

Mastermind: Taylor grappling if she really just controls how this all works instead of letting life happen.

Anyways Dear Reader fits into this idea that it is both 2016 and 2020.

100% agree with your first line. i don’t agree with every breakdown, but our understanding of the record in general overlaps. my description of midnights as a whole is “reflecting on her past so that she could make sense of her (similar) present and fix her current situation.” there’s a reason that album was written in late 2021 and that’s the topic she chose.

[joesalw]

To the anon who said that the last time they couldn’t connect with Taylor was during the original 1989 era, I felt the same way back then and I’m starting to feel it again now. I’ve been a fan of her music since 2009 but ever since 2014 I’ve had a difficult time calling myself a ‘swiftie’. I think how we both felt at the time was common sentiment brewing among the general public, which is why 2016 happened. 

Swifties go on about ‘overexposure’ and ‘misogyny’ being why the world turned on her, but I really don’t think 2016 happened in a vacuum. The general public were already sick of the sight of her ‘girl squad’ and million boyfriends, and her white feminism came across as self serving and out of touch even back then. She was completely silent on the 2016 election, and being a blonde, blue eyed country singer it was easy for the general public to assume she voted red even if it wasn’t true. Kimye just gave people a valid reason to say “oh she’s a liar, playing the victim again, we hate her” because her persona and especially her approach to feminism already was coming off as out of touch and constantly self victimising. If people had any kind of trust in her or saw her as a likeable, honest person it would've never happened.

In 2016 the political climate was different, so people were less able to articulate why she didn’t sit well with them. People deep down felt she was self victimising, unsympathetic and out of touch, rather than the underdog or anti hero she paints herself to be, even back then. Now in a post Trump, post covid world with all of the war and genocide going on (that she continues to ignore), the general public is more easily able to articulate why white feminist billionaire ecocidal barbie is not a good person to support, beyond just ‘misogyny’ or ‘overexposure’. The whole foundation of white supremacy and girlboss feminism/capitalism that her entire brand is built on is something the general public is a lot more critical of now than they were back then. When the public inevitably does ’cancel’ her again, she won’t need Kanye to do it, she will ruin her reputation all by herself. That viral tiktok of someone saying she uses feminism as a defence to say people can’t be mean to her is just the start. People felt that back in 2016 and just didn’t know how to articulate it. I felt that way about her feminism back then and that’s why I stopped being a fan, it had nothing to do with overexposure or Kanye West (also rep was a terrible album).

I came back around to being a fan of her around lover era, because I really thought she was making a start at using her voice for more important things, and she was so private and not in everyone’s faces anymore doing obnoxious pap walks with her current boyfriend or ‘girl squad’ like she was back then. Now she’s doing all that crap again I’m starting to think Joe was the only reason she was tolerable. Now she’s back to staying silent on important issues, only difference is now she’s not just an out of touch millionaire, she’s an out of touch billionaire. I can’t in good conscience call myself a swiftie anymore. Her music will always be important to me, but I refuse to be a fan of any billionaire.

you're so on point

[taylortruther]

I've been thinking of Clara Bow in light of the article about her and her secretary that you shared and I have an added thought on the song (which I fully believe Taylor when she says it is about how women are treated as disposable in the entertainment industry):

It is the first time we see 2016 quietly creep onto the album. Clara's breakdown and subsequent was based on how the media portrayed her in a case where she was the victim. That's a lot like what happened with Taylor and Kimye with the Snapchat recordings in 2016.

ooh interesting. yeah, it was a total invasion of privacy, that i think taylor had always been terrified of.

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

I need your thoughts on the Christian Chorus Line in Cassandra. I assumed immediately that Taylor was referencing the Hillsong Church group who were all tied to Scooter, but someone else pointed out Kanye had a church/has a church. I lean towards the Hillsong crew only because I think 2016 is so tied to the sale of her masters that they are two parts of the same event (what tore her apart and eventually led to her building what she has now).

Oh I absolutely don't associate it with either of those churches whatsoever. First of all I had no idea Hillsong was linked to Scooter (I'm assuming through his famous clients like Bieber?) but somehow that totally tracks because it's such a shady organization imo. I have next to zero knowledge about evangelical cults churches beyond their influence in the political sphere, but I also don't live in the United States so they don't have nearly the influence where I live.

I took the "Christian chorus line" as representative of the critics who moralized the whole Kimye situation and immediately condemned her and treated her like, well, a scarlet letter. All the holier-than-thou commenters who accused her of lying, of being manipulative, of being greedy, of being inauthentic, etc. Chorus lines are synchronized, dancing to the same beat, singing from the same songbook etc. To me, the "Christian chorus line" of it all is a play on that, meaning the self-righteous critics who all jumped on the hate bandwagon and repeated the accusations against her like a mob mentality.

And it reflects the way she's used religion/piety as a stand-in for the same themes in the album, e.g. the Sarahs and Hannahs and town elders convening in But Daddy I Love Him, or the rolling stone/propriety scenario in Guilty As Sin? IMO she's not at all calling out an actual physical establishment, but applying the same zealotry of evangelical religions to the zealotry of the critics/media/fans who turned against her or tried to exercise control over her.

I definitely think the song as a whole is a heartbreaking reflection of the time in 2016 though, and along with Who's Afraid of Little Old Me and Mad Woman probably the most vulnerable she's been in her music about how difficult that time was for her.

[foxes-that-run]

Can you give more insight into the One Directioners fueling the 2015/2016 cancellation of Taylor? I know the media clung to the Kimye scandal, but I live for the deeper story...

This is so long, sorry I have lots to say apparently! I posted recently how Taylor planned and hinted at reputation's themes in 2015, long before of the Kimye famous/snake issues.

I also do not mean to imply that Taylor wanted that drama, or that that drama was not pivotal, it absolutely was pivotal and I think unwelcome. But I think she saw sentiment turning, and maybe also wanted to change her image - or perhaps it was a symptom of a problem she was already aware of.

Paula Erickson

Taylor's publicist before Tree in some ways laid the groundwork for this. Paula was Taylor's publicist from 2007 - 2014 and positioned Taylor as a wholesome girl next door and used a lot of brand endorsements like diet Coke. She didn't manage or address rumours though, she left Taylor to talk directly to fans and a member of her team possibly even directly leaked things on Tumblr in the Haylorsecrets account (if not connected she still did nothing about it). She didn't combat rumors and Taylor's serial dater image took hold, despite her saying she only dated 2 people 2011-2013.

Directioners

The Directioners very protective of the boys, and especially Harry. The youngest and the one with the most jarring image as a womaniser when he was what seemed like still quite a sweet sheltered teen. I think Taylor was also quite sheltered and I think 'frozen in the age she got famous' as she said in Miss Americana. But she is a few years older, more established and viewed with jealousy by some overprotective fans and the media as a maneater. Yet they did drag her, up and down. In the But Daddy I love him post I have some tabloids and a tik tok I think sum it pretty well. Throughout 2012 - 2014 they dragged her and it often went viral, the then unknown Halsey went viral with Haylor Song to the IKYWT tune.

It came to a head in early 2014 when Paula Erickson left, she left mid- March 2014. They parted way acrimoniously close to 60 days after Red did not with the Grammy. On 8 April 2014 a Page Six article said Paula had given 60 days notice and disagreed with Taylor's parents.

Tree Paine

Tree started in May 2014. Tree was more aggressive in addressing rumours. Tree also cultivated relationships with particular publications to give messages and Taylor's own socials took a step back. Tree started in the last months before 1989, with time to shape it's release as her first acts, however Reputation was Trees first full era. The way the concept of a reputation was being hinted as, as were snakes, disappearing and taking longer after 1989 were all there I think it was part of a strategy for Tree to position Taylor as a more mature, edgier artist and also to protect Taylor. While Paula's approach was that Taylor was everyones, accessible to all and relatable, which left her exposed to non-fans online Tree positioned her as a protected commodity. I think there are possibly elements in the album about her reputation and how she is viewed coupled with changing publicist that is part of the overall picture.

2015 controversies and Calvin Harris

Taylor was outrageously successful in 2015, she is absolutely more exposed now but her chart dominance seemed more so, things were measured differently then, and it was more organic. She was hard to escape because she was so successful, I think that is part of it. Also the album was about Harry and widely known as such which fuelled directioner drama, along with the band imploding at the same time and Harry's solo future clear for everyone to see.

On the 1989 World Tour the Clean Speeches directly addressed the way she was treated and spoken about online and what that cost her personally.

Armed with a more proactive publicist, with the landscape of music changing Taylor took on Apple Music and streaming services taking her cataloge down and writing an open letter to Apple. It was a baller move, she was a huge artist at the top of her game taking on Apple, which then had more of a monopoly than they do now. She was looking for a fight, I think she was tired of being defenceless, she had changed publicists and picked a fight with the biggest thing on the playground. Rep was coming.

Calvin and Taylor were very public, then their disagreements became so and Taylor was pulled into more drama. Calvin was rumoured to be unfaithful, Taylor defend him. Calvin and Zayn got into a Twitter fight, which Louis got involved in. It was initially over Taylors letter to Apple but was thinly veiled that Calvin hated One Direction and vice versa.

All that led to Taylor telling Vogue in November 2015:

"Then I’ll feel like I’ll need to give people a breather from me because at a certain point they’re going to get a little sick of hearing about me, so I’ll need to go away for a while then, depending on my gauge on how sick of me they are, I’ll decide when to put out the next album.”

Of course, in 2016 Kayne built on what maybe was intended as a calculated image recalibration into something much worse, but I do think Reputation as a theme was intended long before that.

So the GP / fans of others who disliked Taylor did play a role, but I think the journey is more complex than it was this person or this group of people.

[unbotheredalwyn]

I am a swiftie and yes, I stan Taylor hard. I'm unsure what to think of Joe obvs I'm a Tay stan. All her friends must have unfollowed him for a reason but I won't say more...but Taylor is a lot happier and better yoked with Travis over all and Joe is clearly his introverted self so all is balanced as it should be. I don't think Taylor wishes him ill though.

Thank you for being respectful.

Relationships end I agree but the entire follow spree unfortunately sent a severe hate train on Joe's path. The stuff people said and threatened him with was insane tbh.

And in the end Joe didn't do anything wrong except be sad and introverted.

I agree travis is a better fit for Taylor and I'm sure Joe will get someone for him too.

I don't think Taylor wishes ill on Joe either but I wish she'd stand up for cyber bullying. I mean the intense bullying Joe went through and the stuff people said of him was what she went through with kimye in 2016 like threatening to bash his skull in or physically attack him on the train etc even as a joke no one deserves that at all.

[thelasttime]

Listening to thank you Aimee and omg the 2016 cancellation still pisses me off so bad I swear people don’t even behave like that towards abusers and did all that over something that wasn’t even a lie taylor is better than me because I’d be taking kimye to hell forever

no and the funny thing is i still meet people who are like //but she did lie in the phone call// like NO SHE DIDN'T!!!!!!!

[jakeperalta]

what do you think cassandra is about? as in taylor's experience

I've assumed it's centrally about 2016 and how everyone rushed to cancel her but then when it came out that kimye had been lying/manipulative she didn't feel people acknowledged or apologised for how she'd been treated over it

[jewishbarbies]

One of the things that gets me rolling my eyes about TS, how can you be on your peak and still be whining about things that happened like almost a decade ago, how can you be mad about how the media reports you as this person who has various relationships that don’t seem to work out (or just mad they talk about your relationships in general as they do with all celebs and because you go on very visible pap walks)-and then be talking about your newest guy on the TIME interview! Make it make sense.

Also the way she talks about 2016 you would think she got banned from the radio, that she lost deals, that she got dropped from the record label! NOTHING OF THAT HAPPENED TO HER she did not lose her career, she didn’t lose her autonomy like Britney, didn’t got the treatment Janet Jackson got after the Super Bowl- how far can your victim mentality get, even when you are having literally everything an artist could ever dream of, does she truly believe this or is just a play to get the stans more worked up and get more attached to her and ruin all her “enemies” ? I think Kimye and Scooter and all the people who she doesn’t like, could disappear from the planet Earth and still she wouldn’t be satisfied

[baby-girl-aaron-dessner]

“t’s so disturbing how her fans speak about her as if she isn’t a grown woman. It actually does her a huge disservice. She is not just an average adult either; she is a powerful businesswoman and shouldn’t be allowed to act with impunity. And she certainly doesn’t need you to play pawn for her free of cost. You’re being exploited. “

‘Because she didn’t get to have childhood, how dare you minimise the hardships she went through to get to where she is today’

That’s why she will never grow up, she has indirectly fed her fans that excuse and nourished it very well throughout the years.

Even though she tries to show how grown up she is with the lyrics and topics she writes about, she also feeds the “never got grow up normal” story line at the same time so she get to play both fields.

Swifties will always find an excuse, or a new way, to defend her behaviour. And she will indirectly play into it. This way she gets to be the victim or her circumstances and not her actions.

Like with drinking, I just saw a video talking about how the alcoholic and aesthetic reference in Fortnight is about evermore and how she was so unhappy with Joe she started drinking to deal with and she was telling us through her music but we didn’t listen properly. Like Joe is the reason she was having a drinking problem and that when she got away from him she found a way out of it. Does that make sense?

Another way this fed is by ignoring the red flags her behaviour is displaying to make is look like it’s ok and that’s there is nothing wrong with what she is doing.

Example, just saw another video of someone talking about her timeline with Matty and the change from the invisible strings to the one on the eras tour. Basically they said that she changed it because the one is about Matty and she changed the set because she was starting get serious with Matty after her breakup with Joe, and how many of the love songs from before can be about Matty and their on-and-off relationship and not Joe. They basically talked about this like “how sad and completely mind blowing we didn’t see that” not in the “wow she has been emotionally cheating on her steady boyfriend of 6 years, and most likely physically cheated on him at the end”

I hope that makes sense.

I have never been part of the swift fandom but I have to say that it’s very disturbing the length they will go to defend her.

I completely understand anon.

This discourse gives me a headache. I’m so sick of seeing fans push this infantilisation narrative. People who defend celebrities like they know them are mentally ill.

And you’re right about her feeding into it too. She really milked the 2009 VMA stuff unnecessarily. The public was already on her side from the beginning. Continuing to play the victim card like that was a clear marketing move. This isn’t me making excuses for every controversy she’s faced. For example, the kimye drama in 2016 was justifiably a horrible experience for her and she should be able to talk about it. But unlike 2009, the public was not on her side (because of tampered evidence).

I have seen some fans blaming Joe for her alcoholism too. Again, I try to stay away from these circles because these people need serious help.

The red flags in her character that you mentioned (like cheating) are things she openly admits to but her fans prefer to stick their heads in the sand.