#kabru i have many questions for u

[twyrrinren]

I NEVER NOTICED GENDERBEND KABRU HERE, HELLO???

[cenvast]

hi hi! i stumbled across ur kabru x toshiro stuff when browsing one of their tags and im sooo hooked now after reading ur explanation post that i gave ur fanfic a read too, love it!! ur story and posts about them made me have some questions, i hope its not too much!

the fanfic mentioned kabru in a kurta when toshiro thinks about their hypothetical wedding. is there a certain type of wedding u imagine them having?

on the same note: would they end up having one? or would they rather stick with a close relationship?

would they think about adoption? is their statuses keep them from adopting because they would be busy?

would toshiro notice kabru spiraling over the thought of utaya and what happened?

srry if this is a lot, i just love this pairing now!

Tysm for reading my writing!! I'm so honored that I got you into Kabshiro <3 And dw, I'm more than willing to answer any questions about my kabshiro meta or "debts and delusions" (this fic is 18+/nsfw)! The fic is a capsule of many of my dunmeshi hcs, so I can always expand on it hehe

I'll put my answers under the cut and divide them into sections for readability!

On Marriage

I think since both of Kabru and Toshiro had traumatic upbringings, they'd be less inclined to get married or have kids quickly, but they would eventually get married.

From my understanding, feudal Japan normalized sexual relationships between samurai, but marriage was an arranged political move between a man and a woman, at least for the upper classes. Toshiro understands marriage as potentially romantic, given his interactions with Falin, but since he lacks models of same-sex marriage, pursuing marriage with Kabru would stump him at first. I think Laios and the others would clue him in that marriage can literally be whatever he and Kabru want it to be, and after a while, he'd make his peace with that.

When he becomes more secure in their relationship, he wouldn't feel the need to marry Kabru out of insecurity anymore. He would continue fantasizing about the domesticity and commitment of it all. He'd also have to work through his trauma-based fear that he'll cheat on his spouse before being willing to marry Kabru.

Toshiro would propose at around year five of their relationship. He'd recognize that he can't imagine a life without Kabru and that all the best things in his life are because he took the initiative to hold onto and voice what's (and who's) important to him. Laios would be a large contributor in encouraging their marriage with his constant reassurances of "Yes, I'll marry you two in Melini :D." Because romantic proposals weren't really a thing in feudal Japan, Toshiro's proposal would be a very agonized-over question — but just a question — he poses to Kabru in private.

I like the idea of Kabru and Toshiro attending Marcille and Falin's wedding, and their marriage being the catalyst for Toshiro deciding that he needs to marry Kabru immediately. Kabru would sense what was going on with Toshiro but give him time to approach him on his own. Out of the two of them, Kabru would be more content with not officially recognizing their relationship via marriage, but he'd still be very excited to marry Toshiro and giddy over the fact that Toshiro wants to marry him.

I imagine their wedding would be a combination of customs from Utaya and Wa and elven customs. Kabru would want to honor his mother and his hometown, and Milsiril would probably want some elven elements. The Wa customs are self-explanatory from Toshiro's end. They'd hold it in Melini with Laios officiating. I also think Toshiro would cry at their wedding because he'd be a little more healed from thinking that crying is unmanly and he'd be overwhelmed by Kabru /pos.

Here's the excerpt from the fic that you referenced:

In Toshiro's wedding fantasy, I included elements from both Indian and Japanese wedding customs. According to my quick research (which could definitely be off, so please correct me if needed), silk and/or embroidered kurtas are considered appropriate wedding attire, and Indian weddings generally involve a lot of dancing. The sea bream, red rice, and daifuku are foods traditionally eaten at Japanese weddings. There's more specificity for the Japanese customs since it's from Toshiro's POV, and in this scene, he's drawing the Indian wedding elements from conversations he's had with Kabru. Obligatory moment of silence for how ridiculous they are for discussing their cultural wedding customs while pretending like they aren't down horrendous for each other 😭

On Children

Toshiro

Prior to being with Kabru, Toshiro expected to have children; he thought he'd inherit his father's position and produce an heir. But he's always been terrified by the idea of actually raising a child because all his parental figures — his father, his mother, and Maizuru — failed spectacularly in raising him. Right after canon, he wouldn't be able to articulate where they went wrong because he's still repressing most of it, but he knows that his father's treatment of him as a failed investment or discarded amusement did not benefit him. Likewise, his mother's neglect and Maizuru's overbearing, terrifying parenting style, coupled with her expectations that he'd take his father's position one day, were not ideal.

If pinned down about it, he'd say that he'd want his child to be raised with proper emotional support — for them to feel loved unconditionally rather than valued for any position they may eventually take up, but overall, he feels ill-equipped to raise a child. Since Kabru would never pressure him into having children, Toshiro would realize that having children is an unwanted expectation his family and society placed on him. After realizing this, up until maybe his forties, he wouldn't even consider having children again because he'd fear traumatizing them like his parental figures traumatized him, and more importantly, he'd be content with his life as it is.

Kabru

By the end of canon, I don't think Kabru has had the mental space to consider having children. He'd be of the mindset that bringing a child into an unjust world would be irresponsible, especially if he's yet to accomplish his goals of equality between the races and sealing off the dungeons. But in his position as Laios' advisor, he'd feel more empowered to improve their world and raise a child in it.

However, if someone seriously approached him about having children with Toshiro, Kabru would probably have a traumatic episode. His associations with having children of his own are:

His trauma regarding monsters eating his mother and other children from Utaya

Milsiril as his adoptive mother and her inability to fully understand and meet his emotional needs due to not conceptualizing short-lived races as equals and her career rooted in elven imperialism (Sidenote: Milsiril does push back against the societal position she's been placed in, and she raised Kabru with good intentions, but impact > intent. She was still raised in elven society and an active participant in imperialism for many years)

The elves' horrible, dehumanizing treatment of Rin

The thought of having children would send him into a panic because he'd fear being killed by monsters and unable to care for his children, his children being killed by monsters, his children being mistreated by those more powerful than him, and being an unsatisfactory parent to them. Not all of his fears would be rational since he lives in Melini where Laios is a living monster repellent. But since he hasn't unpacked all of his trauma, these thoughts would come up.

After processing more of his trauma, Kabru in his thirties would be open to having children if Toshiro wanted them, but since Toshiro doesn't, it likely wouldn't happen.

If we fast forward to their forties or fifties, that's when Kabru and Toshiro might consider raising a kid. Their lives are stable. They've unpacked a lot of their childhood traumas. They have a support network and a reliable method of travel between their homes. They could do it. I still don't think they'd feel the need to have children, but if a child tumbled into their laps (I'm thinking of how Izutsumi appeared for the main party), they'd have a long, serious discussion about it and ultimately decide to raise them. Similar to Izutsumi, I could see them raising an older kid.

TL;DR: I don't think Kabshiro would adopt/have children, but after they hit middle-age, if a child fell into their lives, they would raise them.

On Utaya

I'm so glad you asked about Utaya because I wish I'd been able to explore Kabru's trauma more in "debts and delusions." He deserves an in-depth analysis of his past and to begin healing from it.

The short answer is: yes, Toshiro would definitely notice Kabru's trauma surrounding Utaya. Toshiro is fairly observant, Kabru's already opened up to him about what happened in Utaya, and when Kabru's trauma manifests outwardly, it's actually not very subtle, so it's a little shocking more people haven't tried to support him through it before. Or maybe it's unsurprising since he tries very hard to project being emotionally secure and stable.

The next step in Kabru's arc is beginning to heal from Utaya. Now that he and Toshiro have established what their relationship is and can correspond and visit each other regularly, Toshiro would have the emotional bandwidth to address Kabru's panic and nightmares and aim to support him by talking with him and encouraging him to lean on him. He'd want to return the favor of Kabru supporting him through his difficult times. He'd also feel guilty for complaining about his concerns over Falin, considering everything Kabru has gone through, but that guilt and negative tendency towards comparison could be something Toshiro works out with his other friends.

After learning to depend more on Toshiro and hopefully, on his other friends, Kabru would recognize that he should take his own advice about voicing one's wants and needs. He'd eventually have an honest conversation with Laios about his feelings on eating monsters and where those feelings come from, and that would open Laios up as another person he can be emotionally open with about his past. Because I am a strong believer in Kabru and Marcille as friends post-canon, she'd also be another person for him to lean on. Her perspective as a half-elf would be valuable for both of them. (Unrelated, but I also strongly believe in Kabru helping Marcille let go of her comphet.)

I'd also hope that with time, Kabru would realize how he's taken Rin for granted. They could actually talk about her feelings for him and unpack their traumatic upbringings together. Talking with Rin would probably be the most healing interaction for him, but it'd take a lot of work on his part. He'd have to apologize to her for being sexist, rebuild their trust after years of him shutting her out emotionally, and uncover the most difficult parts of his past with her, a friend who knows it intimately. Realistically, Rin would be willing to support him even without an apology because she suffers more than Jesus, but for the sake of her sanity and mine, he should definitely apologize to her first.

If there was ever to be a sequel to "debts and delusions," it would focus on Kabru and his healing!

₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

Thank you so much for sending this ask! I'm always willing to yap about DunMeshi and/or my writing. If you have any of other thoughts on the fic, hcs, or more questions, feel free to send them my way <3

[ambrosiagourmet]

#something i've been chewing on lately#is this question of 'what did Kabru sacrifice in the end?'#'what did he let go of?'#compared to what laios and marcille lost it feels like so little but i know i'm missing something#maybe it's just the scales balancing out - why should the boy from utaya have to lose anything else?#a subversion of the tragic figure who sacrifices themself so no one else has to go thru what they did. a 'what if /they/ got to heal too?'#maybe it's this. his control of the narrative. his abnegation. his canary-style training and its rotten principles.#food for thought#(heh. food.) (via @yuri-puppies)

VERY INTERESTING THOUGHTS.

I'll say first of all that I do slightly disagree with the idea that Dungeon Meshi would have like scales/universal balance... I feel like it resists the idea of universal justice the same way that it resists the idea of anthropomorphizing animals instead of loving them as animals. I think Falin is saved not because people have sacrificed and earned a happy ending, but because people come together as a community and CHOOSE to be there for her. It's a very "If you choose to care, then the universe cares" kind of story to me (thank u Fantasy High for putting it into such good words).

Not to say that's entirely what you are saying, but I just want to establish that as the viewpoint I'm working from.

So, from there, the first thing I want to say is that I have always viewed Kabru's first fall as a very real death for him. He survives, but it's a turning point - everything after that is the afterlife of how Kabru believed his life would go. He was always willing to die for his beliefs. He's always been weighed down by the need for his survival to have a purpose, and I think in some ways probably views himself as already dead in a way - everything since Utaya exists not as a life, but as a mission.

And then he dies. Not really, but narratively. He dies, and he keeps living. The story even slows down to kind of just be about that living, in many ways, for a bit. 61 & 62 have a lot of important information, but in terms of the present tense of the story, they are about the mechanics of living. The same mechanics of living (and eating) that we've seen explored for the main party throughout the whole story, but that Kabru hasn't been willing to engage with.

He then gets to (what I view as) the climax of his arc: telling Laios he wants to he his friend. Kabru fails to articulate the big picture his life has been dedicated to, and instead reaches out with something personal, vulnerable, and selfish. It is a desire born not out of guilt, but one that arose from the life that Kabru doesn't even fully allow himself to live.

As I noted in the original post, he then lets Laios carry on the story in his place - surrendering control, this time, instead of sacrificing himself.

BUT. THE INTERESTING THING IS. HE ALSO BACKSLIDES AFTER THAT.

The most explicit Survivor's Guilt Kabru Panels happen after this personal climax and sacrifice of control.

And even after the crisis is resolved, he goes back to trying to control the narrative (and to control Laios, too), at least a little bit:

He even doubts himself and the very choices that led them to their happy ending (including his own choice to be selfish and to give up control to Laios).

This isn't to say that Kabru hasn't changed or grown at all, that's definitely not true. His speech to Mithrun is proof of that.

But this speech, importantly, isn't about things that have already changed. It's about things that can change. It is about choosing to carry on despite the sometimes imperceptibly slow progress of that change. After all, vegetable scraps can sprout again, but it won't be immediate, will it? You have to trust their potential before they show their growth, if they are ever going to get there.

This all to say... I think Kabru's story doesn't feel the same as Laios' and Marcille's because he's not at the same place as them.

After all, Marcille's growth through the story isn't just about what she gains and what she loses.

It's about what she learns to let go.

And letting go is hard for Kabru, but he's proven that he can, now. He's let go just a little bit, and he can do so again, just like Mithrun can find new desires. This growth, like hunger, is inevitable, so long as you make room for it.

I really like that his ending isn't as clean or conclusive as Laios and Marcille's. I think, much like Falin, actually, he comes out of the story not with a concluded arc, but with an opportunity - the chance to move forward and finally find himself. The chance to live.

This is just a smaller observation that will hopefully someday be part of a larger analysis on Kabru's view of Laios & how Laios impacts him...

But I think it really interesting that Kabru surrenders something for Laios twice, and that these moments are inversions of each other.

The first time, Kabru gives up his life to maintain his control. He changes the course of the entire story with this action, and is willing to die to achieve that. Kabru is (supposedly) entrusting the future to Laios, but he is still very much the primary actor in the overall narrative. He is still the one choosing what the story should be.

The second time, however, Kabru gives up his control to keep hold of something personal and selfish (in the way of dungeon meshi selfishness - it is a good thing to keep this desire. It small piece of what makes him a living creature). He steps aside to let Laios choose the way forward. He surrenders narrative agency for personal agency... not changing the story, but changing himself.

[malewifesband]

backwater elf consort would be so good i think theyd fucking hate it bc laios would have so so many inappropriate questions to ask about the cannibalism "so first of what does it taste like? second, who counts as cannibalism? like, does a fish man count? can you tell me what a fishman tastes like?"

before i got to ch 76 i was aware laios became like king of something but i didnt ship him with anyone and just really hoped he took an orc wife in the epilogue. so i am so down for an orc husband for her. kobold consort too.

because kuro is not only literate but was able to teach himself common in a really short time (and honestly hes pretty fluent as far as things go!) i like to imagine he was someone pretty important before being trafficked. imagine his family manages to track him down and reunite with him and decide to make a proposal to the woman-king bc kuro wants to stay in melini. and now u have this drama with mickbell too and u know hes blaming kabru for stealing kuro away even though he had fuck all to do with this decision

laios is not going to be normal about having a kobold consort. like its going to be this horrible dynamic where first shes gotta stop seeing kobolds as Talking Dogs (her policies have been great, but i know shes still struggling with that view of them) and then i just know shes falling into the furry fetishization pit. "Do you... do you have a knot 😳" like the way she looked at lycion...it was on her mind. i know this.

with me going hard on tfem laios, i think shed be a lot more comfortable with having kids if shes the one bearing them (which i have no doubts is possible in this world, it would just likely take some form of ancient magic and a lot of experimentation, assuming it hasnt been done before. i believe marcille could do it if she could regrow falin from scratch). i think being the mother instead would break some of that traumatic association laios has with becoming his father, and while her relationship with her mother is poor, its not nearly as bad as with her father. i dont think shed be eager to name an heir, but i think the idea of having kids would be less hard to consider

a more matriarchal monarchy would be respected by the elves, and i dont think they would expect a titled queen (as opposed to a queen-consort) to marry as the heir is obviously legitimate if she bore it and there are witnesses

however from a political angle i would love love love to arrange a marriage between the nakamoto clan of the island of wa and the woman-king of melini to cement a trade agreement which will increase the nakamotos position at home and abroad

plays very nicely with my thought that toshiros dad would be extremely impressed that he befriended a king and would want him to go establish a branch family in a new nation with rare resources. what better way to do that than to marry off your permanently single son to a queen? she can bear kids right? alright, thats all papa nakamoto needed to hear. go make some royal babies son

its extremely romcom but maybe this should be funny a bit. maybe i am having a lot of fun with this. and i bet you laios still doesnt fucking know toshiros clan name so shes going to hear who shes marrying and all thats going thru her head is "oh shuros from that island" so toshiro her new fiance is going to arrive and shes gonna be like "^^ yayyyy shuro i didnt know you knew my new husband, are you gonna introduce us?"

and toshiro, who has been dreading this for months, now has to figure out how to break it to her thats him. hes the husband. please dont make this weird laios