#just like i dont really blame amane for shidou

[seariii]

In the state Haruka was, Muu continuing to bring food was futile. There is a certain point where the person starving to death can't eat, can't even drink water, it's physically not possible, their muscles atrophiate and can't pass food.

[fuutaprotectionsquad]

you guys ever think about how. how in the beginning of Milgram, Jackalope was like "you can vote however you want, you can vote someone innocent just because you think they're pretty. it doesn't matter." And despite how hard we (or atleast me, but i imagine most of us) try to vote objectively and not succumb to the bias he expects of us, we do. Our votes are all biased because fundamentally, law and sin itself is built off of emotion, which is the root of bias.

And thats what causes such a debate in the Milgram fandom over verdicts: bc even though we think we're thinking logically, we're not, we are biased. Our biases don't overlap, though, and thats why we can't agree with each other. And on top of that, we are rigid in our biases. We are stubborn, we refuse to see subjective things from other points of view, because we can't. Opinions are hard as fuck to change.

Hence why the Amane debate, despite infuriating me, is subsequently my favorite. Neither side is right or wrong, no matter how much I think I'm right or other ppl think they're right. Its subjective what age is too young to be held accountable for your crimes, its subjective whether or not you should be blamed for the abusive ideologies you were raised under. And I could rant all day about why I believe one thing or the other, and I can get really mad at people who disagree, but its subjective. Just as the sole fact that Amane's cult teaching are bad is also subjective. Murder being bad is subjective.

People trying to change the prisoners' opinions using their verdicts is biased just as voting them based on our own opinions is also biased. We are trying to force our own beliefs and opinions on prisoners who have different ideas of whats right and wrong.

Es cannot see any of this. Most of the prisoners do. We see it mostly with Yuno, Fuuta, Amane and Kotoko, who criticize/take advantage of Es' god complex. Meanwhile, Haruka and Mahiru invite Es to decide for them (i think haruka does??? i dont fully remember). Muu and Shidou are both initially opposed to it, but become more willing to follow Es' verdicts because it benefits them. Even though Shidou's a little hesitant to see himself as innocent, he starts to. Kazui attributes Es' verdicts to a lack of knowledge on his situation, with the ideology that only his opinion on it matters, because he's the only one who knows the full story. Mikoto's kinda just confused (understandably). And don't ask about John idr.

Anyway I could rant for hours about how the specific prisoners act towards Es in regards to their verdicts + milgram fans' voting ideology + the philosophical undertones of milgram. Technically i did cuz this took 2 hours to write. But. maybe another day.

[fuutaprotectionsquad]

i dont speak for all amane guilty voters when i say this, but i don't hate amane as a character. i hate her as a person, because overly religious people kinda just piss me off, but that hatred doesn't extend to why i think she should be guilty.

in my opinion (i think this is where most of the fandom disagrees when it comes to her) 12 is an old enough age that she should be held responsible for her actions. her cult beliefs are the result of indoctrination, but so are those of her parents, and everyone else there. there comes a point where you can't just blame the people who imparted those beliefs on you, and you become responsible. otherwise, everyone's actions in that cult could just be excused, including that of her abusers. what age that is is subjective, but i have a couple of reasons for thinking shes past that.

firstly, its not as though shes a stranger to other ways of thinking. she mentions that shes had experience with other people's views and opinions of her religion, she's not sheltered. and even though we cant teach her anything with our verdicts, the other prisoners can. just by being around people with other beliefs, if she was going to change, she would've started to by now. she's not going to change her beliefs.

secondly, her age itself. iirc kotoko says in a timeline that at that age, her beliefs were solidified too. at 12, my morals and beliefs were pretty much the same as now. like amane says, 12 year olds have free will. if she was like 6, then i can see why we should be lenient, but have you met a 12 year old? childrens personalities, empathy and beliefs are flexible, but this is the age where that all solidifies and you become who you are now.

all this to say i dont think she's capable of changing her beliefs any time soon, and i also think shes at the point that her actions are her own and she can't be excused by her indoctrination.

voting her innocent only solidifies her beliefs, making the problem worse. voting her guilty wont change her, but thats not what we're (well. im) trying to do. we're holding her accountable, the same way voting kotoko or muu guilty does. the goal isn't to torture her.

as for t2. the dilemma here is really shidou vs amane. vote them both innocent and he dies, vote her innocent and him guilty (to grant her wish and protect her) and he suffers from a guilty verdict. or vote her guilty and him innocent, and she suffers. the third option is what i wanted to happen. because i don't think its fair to shidou that he has to suffer for saving others, all because someone else is aiming to kill him. she is the one trying to kill him, im not gonna protect her at the cost of an innocent (in context to this situation, not his overall actions) mans life. im not gonna punish the victim just because i want amane not to suffer. this is one of the main reasons i voted amane guilty t2, because ideally the best option is everyone inno so no one suffers. but that wasn't gonna happen with amane's threat.

all in all, she still is a victim, but her being a victim to her cult and being at fault for her actions towards her mom + shidou are not mutually exclusive imo. and she doesn't deserve to be tortured the same way muu or kotoko dont, but a) we didnt know this would happen at the time and b) in amane's case, it was to stop her from killing someone else who didnt deserve to die.

Idk how to start this post properly, but why do some of you hate Amane so much? She killed someone, but this is a prison for murderers? If you think amane should have been voted guilty, why? Do you really think a child deserves that kind of torture? Again?

Like, it's a well known fact that cults prey on vulnerable people* Like, for example, idk, a child? Like, Amane won't have unlearned their beliefs, because children do not usually have the ability to think critically if that isn't something they are taught and encouraged to do, and if the people around them all believe the same things they were taught, or roughly similar, and the media they have access to teaches them the same thing, then they are unlikely to question those beliefs, because they have no reason to. So, why is anyone surprised when Amane hasn't thought to really dissect any of those believes, why would she? That's what she's known for a long time, and milgram is not really a place to learn. It is a place for punishment, above all else. No matter what we voted amane, it would not have mattered, it would have taught her nothing, she would still feel that way about shidou, and maybe he wouldn't have died, but you would have still basically tortured a child, and she would still keep her beliefs, perhaps even more than she already did.

(*for another example, fuuta would have been in quite a vulnerable state after trial 1, because he was voted guilty, with no understanding as to why. Amane did not consciously try to indoctrinate him or anything, but the things she believes are usually supposed to be appealing to vulnerable people. It's why he ended up like this too, I think. Though granted, I don't personally have experience with any of this, so I am happy to be corrected on anything)

[kani-miso]

@officialesmilgram @hectorthedoggo

did everybody forget about the current and past ca surivor theory or what. ngl i feel like they would be put as the perpetrator AND the victim at the same time (something like amane in tpm). their case is quite similiar to amane too, the only differences being that milgram is more of an organization instead of a full on cult, and that amane gets an inferiority and savior complex out of it but es gets a god complex because of having "all the power" (no they dont have all the power lmao). the og milgram experiment is about obedience after all. but, es will most likely later on feel inferior to others and gain an inferiority complex. how so? the prisoners 'technically' became more useful than es (ex: shidou as the prisons doctor), deep cover and YONAH will also heavily impact a great inferiority complex on them (girl cmon do you HAVE to call them an inept guard). i want to add something, does anybody even remember the foreshadowing that es did in baptism of fire?? "If you and I really are the same kind of person like you claim, I'll end up like that sooner or later anyways ", there's a chance that they know they'll get hurt in t3, mentally and most likely also physically. by whom thou ask? either they themselves hurt themself or milgrams systematical punishment. when looking at the vds, you can see a pattern of es becoming closer to the prisoners then shutting themselves away from them because they're not allowed to become more than acquaintances. their dislike for the prisoners also feel like a facade, their facade slowly worned out during the t2 progression (fuuta vd, mahiru vd, and mikoto/john vd). if you really believed them when they said 'i hate you' to kazui, are you serious?? they would utmost definitely hide away their graditude against kazui because they thought he was unfaithful, not because he's a theorized homo. people seriously need to know that es' opinion and theory with ours can be vastly different because they're their own character.

also, because they shut themselves away from the prisoners, they have no one to look up to. they need an influence in their life so they know what path to take and if their only influences are literally milgram and jackalope, they would be severely messed up. not only would they be extremely lonely because they want to follow the rules to not get close to them, they would not know social cues and social norms, their morality will be extremely skewed to be correctly to milgrams justice system because they want to be a 'beautiful/ideal warden' and they'll do anything for that. nobody ever talks about how milgram is slowly making es pressure themselves more and more to the point of breaking themselves and because they'll be the one who pressures themself, jackalope wouldn't need to do anything at all, he can just neglect their physical needs and es would blame it on themselves that they didn't receive what they need.

due to their awful enviroment and the people around them are all murderers and a neglectful non-rabbit, that will definitely impact they're growth and mind. i don't even get how people think and want es to be some sort of smart-ass psychologist, what do you even expect at this point?? t3 will most probably be the worst lows they'd ever experience and its all thanks to OUR votes, haruka will most like khs, fuuta might get indoctrinated into amane's cult, muu'd be in shambles (mentally and maybe physically), shidou would be severely tired and overworked due to needing to tend to others wounds, amane would fall deeper into her beliefs, john would maybe attempt to be dormant, and kotoko most likely would hurt others or herself. all of the blame will obviously shift to es instead of the viewers (please remember es is different from the viewers, they're not a self insert). as yamanaka said, if t2 is hell then t3 is super hell. es was already really stressed out in t2 because of the prisoners conditions and now its 5x worse than before. i dont know why people barely talk about the fact a teenager is the one experiencing all of this, a brain-washed one to be specific.

also remember when es said something like, "the enviroment tends to change the person"? yeah, this is exactly what they meant.

i love you es milgram you ruined my life

dont mind how many 'also's there is, im having a blank-ish mind on my choice of words.

Actually, one more just for the funny.

What do these mean for Es? Whatever you like.

[purgemarchlockdown]

#i feel really bad for saying that a 12 year old kid cant have a happy ending but like. i genuinely think she cant#her cult mindset is so ingrained into her#she needs a therapist and a support system#something that milgram cant really give#i dont think any of the other prisoners can be the support she really needs (and i could not blame them)#shidou could be. or mahiru#but both of those people are the ones amane would not accept support or help from#if she was voted forgiven she's going to view her 1st unforgiven vote as a 'trial from god'#and i do think there's a chance we could get a yuno situation#a lot of the reasons why people want to vote her forgiven is because she's a 12 year old who's been abused and gaslit by a cult#im not saying that it's bad reasoning#however. it makes me feel like a lot of people pity amane#which is fair (and something i do myself) but amane would definitely not like it#she doesnt want to be treated as a child#an unforgiven vote could lead to more mental damage and would possibly make her lean into the cult's teachings even more since they are her#only form of comfort#i dont know what to vote for her#and in like. storytelling perspective she is GREAT#her character exists to make the audience ask ourselves 'how much will does a child have?'#and 'if a person is manipulated to do something bad how much free will do they have and how much of it is their fault'#amane wouldnt be half as compelling if she wasnt 12 years old AND a cultist#reblog#im so unwell abt her

YOU FUCKING GET IT! Again I'd say that Milgram as a system in-universe is incredibly flawed which works for the purposes of...well criticizing the prison system and public opinion and what people do when given power over others and what not. I have a thing currently where my plan is to vote everyone forgiven, if not now then in trial 3 because I don't Want these people to stay in this hellscape of a prison and since voting can't communicate my actual intentions my best bet is to get them Out so they Can be rehabilitated...but of course that depends on what Jackalope is going to do and really it's just the least worst option to me lol. I Love how Milgram makes me Feel Powerless to help any of them properly, fantastic usage of medium and storytelling.

Back to Amane: She really wouldn't like the idea she's being pitied! I love how Amane is written so much, the parroting of ideas coupled with the want to be taken seriously and the way her trauma causes her to grip onto ideals she holds as her only support is just *chefs kiss* I Adore It. Amane shouldn't be in prison she should be REHABILITATED and GIVEN THERAPY fr.

Many thoughts head full about amane

(Feel free to talk abt your amane theories and thoughts in the notes, i want to meet more milgram fans)