#just a worry she might truly not conceive bcus of that

[fideidefenswhore]

Was it totally dropped, tho? The poison pen drawing, at least, is picked up:

‘How little you know of our lives,’ she says. ‘The lives of women, I mean. I have been alone for years.’ ‘You must forget those days. No one speaks of Anne Boleyn. No one thinks of her. You must be jocund and pleasant and adapt yourself to the new queen, or you will be sent away again, and I shall not speak for you.’ ‘Jane Seymour will not send me away. I know what she is. I know a thing about her.’ […] Jane Rochford smirks. ‘It is not what you think. No one wanted Jane in their bed, she was too cold a fish. It is another thing, that I know – I know her method. I witnessed everything that she worked against Anne, maid against mistress. You will remember a day when Anne took fright because she found a paper in her bed? A drawing of a man crowned, and beside him a woman without a head?’ [...]

He says, ‘Jane did not do it, she does not speak the French tongue.’ ‘Everybody speaks that much.’ She laughs at him. ‘Do you know, I believe all these years you have been thinking it was me?’

It wasn't explicit, exactly, but I always found this following scene in TMATL to be its continuation:

He answers a summons from Jane the queen: finds her with a book in her lap, a Book of Hours. He thinks, I know that volume. It belonged to the other one. Jane holds out the book. ‘This is hers, Anne Boleyn’s. She and the king passed it between them. The king has written an inscription, under the Man of Sorrows.’ He takes the book from her. Christ is kneeling, his flesh gory from head to heels, each bleeding cut fine as a wire. The picture is set within a border of peapods and ripe strawberries: the king has written some lines in French. ‘Lady Rochford has kindly translated it for me,’ Jane says. ‘I am yours, Henry R, forever. And then she replied to him.’ He cannot see the reply. ‘Look under the Annunciation,’ Jane says. ‘She had hope, of course, in those days. She thought she could bear a son.’ He finds the picture. A coy virgin with lowered eyes is getting good news: the angel of the lord is right behind her. Jane recites, ‘By daily proof you shall me find/To be to you both loving and kind. Do you think she was kind to him?’ ‘Not often.’

We've lost the impact of the scene somewhat, in the adaptation...I always thought it was significant that she said Lady Rochford was the one that translated it for her. It suggests she's needling her.

There's another scene in Bring Up the Bodies, where Jane says something to the effect of no one will blame her for what has happened to Anne Boleyn, she was the author of her own misfortunes, a woman cannot do what she has done and live. This is its continuation: she was 'unnatural', she wasn't 'kind' (ie, submissive enough) 'to [her husband]', so she deserved what happened to her, it's, well...Dworkin comes to mind: "Right-wing women have surveyed the world: they find it a dangerous place. [...] They see that creativity and originality in their kind are ridiculed; they see women thrown out of the circle of male civilization for having ideas, plans, visions, ambitions. [...] They try to up their value: through cooperation, manipulation, conformity; through displays of affection or attempts at friendship; through submission and obedience; and especially through the use of euphemism—“femininity, ” “total woman, ” “good, ” “maternal instinct, ” “motherly love."

Tl; dr, I believe there were connections bridging this character's arc, I just don't think they're being properly demonstrated in the adaptation, so far. Kominsky has made her more sympathetic: 'the late (last) Queen, God rest her', in reference to her predecessor, Jane Seymour as she is characterized in these books would never say that.

Also while his scenes with Jane in the novel of TMATL are less intimate and less frequent that the previous, I viewed that as indicative of her status change...Jane being queen brings a new formality to their interactions, so when he observes her in TMATL, it's as if through a thick plane of glass.

As a middle aged person, I think that there is probably nothing more relatable in the Cromwell books than the comedy of errors that is his supposed love life...Everything is deliberately ambiguous. Everyone or no one could actually fancy him. Every one or no one legitimately flirted with him. By the third book, you have the sense that he has entirely given up on ever having any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with anyone because he just assume shit's not gonna go his way.

And the narrative keeps putting him in SITUATIONS.

Some people find this tasteless, creepy, etc. and that is their right. I also think they completely miss the point about subjectivity that the author is trying to make...

[cinemaocd]

@fideidefenswhore#is jane boleyn meant to be a credible character?#a bitter one but a credible one#idt mantel could walk that back really#george and anne hooking up was meant to be credible. it's mentioned by a bargeman before it's mentioned by JB#and cromwell rewards the...'intelligence'. he entertains bryan's explanation of their alleged incest#chapuys' reports are dismissed as 'gossip'-- until the most explosive of them (anne will poison her stepdaughter)#is confirmed by jane boleyn...#the report about anne shelton is affirmed by anne shelton herself. etc#tmatl spoilers#and i've used massage myself to describe this but maybe it's not the correct term.#more like...rearranged? the primary sources? idk#honestly not intending to be contentious; just that i read both of these semi-recently so they're fresh#but is it dropped? really? or is that she just...yk. dies#and anne died. so where is that momentum to go? who is she going to work against? she was against#what anne stood for (presumably) and madge is just a distraction for him. she doens't seem committed to a 'party'#so jane mentions her in this scene but doesn't seem to bear her animosity#as she suggests...she doesn't get any pleasure with henry. so it's doubtful she envies her#there's not a suggestion it hurts her pride#just a worry she might truly not conceive bcus of that#since that was the prevailing medical opinion at the time

I think changing it from Jane Rochford's translation of the passage to her asking Cromwell to translate for him definitely changes the vibe of the scene.

Though I have read TMATL twice it was more than three years ago so I had forgotten about the translation of the note as being a point. The author deliberately pits Jane versus Jane and Cromwell is obvs going to chose Jane Seymour and it's one of several places where Cromwell records things but doesn't analyze their meaning. For example he sees Rafe appearing suddenly in his company with messy hair and then sees Helen a moment later and doesn't make the connection. He is blindsided by the news that they have a secret engagement.

I mean he can be expected to not really take on board all of the possible subtleties of interpretation when Jane Seymour is talking indetail about her sex life and he wishes his soul could yeet itself from his body...Me wanting some kind of realization from Cromwell about Jane's character or someone besides Jane Rochford to guess what she's been up to is me just wanting some payoff for all of those plot threads in the prev two novels.

Also adore your "contentious" comments/notes and all of the extra detail/background you have given for free honestly...

As a middle aged person, I think that there is probably nothing more relatable in the Cromwell books than the comedy of errors that is his supposed love life...Everything is deliberately ambiguous. Everyone or no one could actually fancy him. Every one or no one legitimately flirted with him. By the third book, you have the sense that he has entirely given up on ever having any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with anyone because he just assume shit's not gonna go his way.

And the narrative keeps putting him in SITUATIONS.

Some people find this tasteless, creepy, etc. and that is their right. I also think they completely miss the point about subjectivity that the author is trying to make...