#jon and catelyn both having a crush on jaime. that’s mother and son right there

[amber-laughs]

what an interesting way for Catelyn to pair up the men in her thoughts. Stannis and Renly, brothers at war. Robb and Robert, kings. Jaime and Jon? traitors? men who threaten her children? men she still has hope will help save them?

[butterflies-dragons]

Hey! Thanks for Jon n women meta. I often see Arya n Sansa journey are interlink. Maybe bcoz Arya n Sansa are basically represent journey of original Arya. If Jon and Arya are foils for Jaime n cersei and Dany n viserys in platonic way then jonsa is foil for them in romantic way. If Arya is his fav sibling then romantic arc is given to Sansa.

Hello Anon,

Thanks for your message.

I agree that Arya and Sansa’s journeys are interlinked, after all they are two explorations of the women’s life in a Middle Ages patriarchal society.  You can read George’s words about it here.  

Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me.

—A Game of Thrones - Arya II

Now, about the original outline.  Let’s remember what GRRM has said about it: “I was making up shit.”  

So I’m not sure if we can say that ‘Arya n Sansa are basically represent journey of original Arya’.  I think the arc of Arya in that outline doesn’t exist anymore and I also think that the arc of Sansa in that outline sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark.  We can even draw some parallels with Elia Martell.

Together with the original outline, the first 13 chapters of AGOT (170 pages) were attached.  These are the first 13 chapters of AGOT that we got:  

The so called “five key players” plus Ned and Cat.  No Sansa POV.  Sansa was not a key player.  This makes giggle!    

The Arya of the Original Outline

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. 

Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Arya escape back to Winterfell.

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.

So:

How old this Arya was? Or how many years have passed between leaving Winterfell to Kings Landing, then ran away back North to Winterfell and then the Wall and falling in love with Jon?  There is no mention of the five years time jump here.

Asoiaf Arya didn’t come back Winterfell, she ran away from Kings Landing, wandered the Riverlands and then sailed to Braavos, where she is training to become a Faceless Man, and she is still there, even today, according to GRRM latests Not a Blog entries.

Asoiaf Arya was never friend of Tyrion Lannister.

Asoiaf Arya didn’t fall in love with Jon Snow.

Asoiaf Arya didn’t go to the Wall and beyond, didn’t meet Mance or the wildlings, or the Others.

Asoiaf Tyrion Lannister didn’t fall in love with Arya but he became friends with Jon Snow in AGOT.  

There is almost no vestige of the Arya of the Original Outline in Asoiaf, just escaping Kings Landing, her Needle and Nymeria.  And of course being a major character. 

The Sansa of the Original Outline

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.  

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. 

So:

How old this Sansa was? Because she is already wedded and bedded and a mother of a baby boy.  And GRRM has stated that in high nobility the marriages are consummated at least when the girl got 16.  There is no mention of the five years time jump here.

Now ¿How marrying the heir of the Iron Throne/King of the 7K is supposed to be an act of dubious loyalty?  Because GRRM has stated that in high nobility there is no marriage without the Lord Father of the bride’s blessing.  Furthermore, from the wedding the bride belongs to her husband’s house, that’s all the fuzz with the cloaking ceremony, going from the maiden’s cloak to your husband’s cloak.  You left your paternal house to belong with your husbands house.  Sansa’s loyalty was with her husband, and more important, Sansa’s love and loyalty was with her baby boy.  So, how choosing his baby over her paternal house could be seem as an act of dubious loyalty then?  And even if she wanted to come back to her paternal family, does she really get a chance without the risk of being captured, separated from her baby, accused of treason and executed, leaving her baby boy motherless?      

Oh I get it, there was an enmity between Starks and Lannisters.  So, Or Joffrey abducted Sansa? Or Sansa eloped to marry Joffrey?  How very Shakespearean of you George!  This is Romeo and Juliet all over again.    Or even better, this is Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark oll over again.   

Original Outline Sansa was Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and mother of the heir to the Iron Throne.

It is implied by the fandom that this Sansa dies because the outline says that Jaime dethrones and kills Joffrey and “everyone ahead of him in the line of succession” (Sansa’s baby).  Well, Sansa was not in the line of succession, but it’s probable that Jaime had to kill her to get to her baby boy, which reminds me of Elia Martell & her babies’ tragic and devastating deaths.

Asoiaf Sansa, according to GRRM, played a part in her father Ned Stark’s death.  I would say that Sansa’s fault lays more in trusting the wrong people than betraying Ned.  The act of betrayal requires willful intent, and Sansa never wanted to betray her father.          

Asoiaf Sansa never married Joffrey and never bore him a son.

Asoiaf Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion Lannister, but we can hardly say that they were friends.

Asoiaf Sansa ran away from Kings Landing and she is living in the Vale right now, under the disguise of Alayne Stone.

Asoiaf Sansa is still alive. 

Asoiaf Sansa has a POV.  According to awoiaf.westeros.org, Sansa Stark is one of the major POV characters in the books.    

GRRM has stated that Asoiaf Sansa has begun to understand that she can play the game of thrones and be a player, not a pawn, and that she has her wits to do it.     

GRRM has called Asoiaf Sansa a major character of the series and listed her along with the ‘key players’.  

As you can see, there are more vestiges of the Sansa of the Original Outline in Asoiaf, in comparison with the Arya of the Original Outline that almost disappeared.   

I agree that we can see Jon and Arya relationship as foil of Jaime and Cersei and even Dany and Viserys. 

Jon and Arya are supposed brother and sister that look very much alike with a very close and caring relationship.  While Cersei and Jaime are twins and involved in an incestuous sexual and fruitful relationship.  Dany and Viserys also have the Targaryen look but there was not explicit incest involved, despite the possibility of it if their circumstances were different.  

Jon and Sansa are indeed a stark contrast in comparison with those 3 pairs of siblings.  

Jon and Sansa don’t have the same look.  Jon got the Stark look and Sansa got the Tully look.  But both of them are for each other the resemblance of their first love.  

And Sansa fell wildly in love with Ser Waymar, and Jon fell in love with a wildling girl kissed by fire:

Indeed, Sansa’s first crush was a Brother of The Night’s Watch:

“Bronze Yohn knows me,” she reminded him. “He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black.” She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. “And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw … he saw Sansa Stark again at King’s Landing, during the Hand’s tourney.”

—A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

And Waymar Royce looked like a Stark.  Waymar Royce was Jon’s lookalike.  More about it here.

And Jon’s first love was Ygritte, a redhead, with blue-grey eyes, and to make the Tully look even more evident, Ygritte called herself half a fish:

“Ygritte punched his arm. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.”

—A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Sansa’s first crush having the Stark Look and Jon’s first lover having the Tully look, reminds me of Catelyn being first betrothed with Brandon Stark but marrying Eddard Stark instead.  Brandon, died like Waymar.  Ned said Jon’s is a younger version of himself.  Ned never imagined marrying Catelyn, he had a young infatuation with Ashara Dayne, but he never acted on his feelings for her, and she died.  Ned also killed Ashara’s brother Arthur.  

Sansa fell wildly in love with Waymar, but she won’t marry him, he died.  She will probably fall in love with Jon in a more mature and calmly way.  Jon Snow, after a non-con beginning, ended loving Ygritte, not a lady, that offered him a “comfort level of femininity”, but he won’t marry her, she died.  Jon will probably fell in love with Sansa, freely and willingly.    

And I also agree that Arya and Sansa play different roles in Jon’s life:  Sansa is the distant half sister, the archetype of  the princess in the tower, that he thinks he would never get.  While Arya is the closest sister, the comfortable presence of a girl with less feminine inclinations.  And both of them resemblance different aspects of Lyanna Stark.  While Arya got Lyanna’s spirit and physical features,  Sansa Stark got the less known romantic nature of Lyanna, after all, Lyanna cried while listening Rhaegar playing the harp, eloped with him, bore him a son, found herself trapped in a tower, and unwillingly caused the death of her father and older brother.  Like a Lady in a sad and beautiful song.     

[wendynerdwrites]

Punch

I wrote a take on the crypt scene from the trailer.

Jon:

Baelish should not be here. He doesn’t belong here. He doesn’t deserve to stand at the crypt of Ned Stark. He betrayed Ned Stark.

Just seeing that worm down here makes Jon’s skin crawl. Granted, that’s how he reacts to seeing Littlefinger in any context. But it’s especially bad down here.

Baelish’s presence doesn’t even make sense. The man is almost always either hovering around Sansa, or trying to. Even when doors get slammed in his face, he’ll wait by those doors, ready to pounce the moment she emerges from the council chamber. Ghost even started sleeping right outside her bedchambers to keep the man away.

Seeing him here, though, it’s especially odd. And not just because Sansa isn’t here. It’s past midnight, everyone should be asleep.

Jon was unable to sleep for a number of reasons. His whole world has shattered and turned itself upside down over the past year. And the revelation Bran arrived with certainly hasn’t helped. In addition to his identity crisis, it’s subconsciously made him a bit more receptive to… well, thoughts he shouldn’t have. Especially at night.

The King figured no one would be down here now. That it was safe to visit his mother’s crypt.

He and Sansa decided to keep it secret for now, not wishing to ignite anymore chaos within their already-fragile government. Or, rather, Sansa decided. Jon jumped at the chance to abdicate in her favor. He’s never felt comfortable with his title.

But they especially didn’t want Littlefinger to know. If Baelish found out that Eddard Stark’s eldest son, the King in the North, wasn’t really Eddard Stark’s son… That he was in fact a potential rival to that dragon queen currently setting half the south ablaze…

As she pointed out, it’s better keeping things quiet.

Still, Jon likes visiting Lyanna’s grave when he’s restless. It helps at least add some context to his new identity.

Littlefinger shouldn’t be here.

Jon supposes it’s better than having the man hovering outside Sansa’s bedroom window, but he still has no place in these crypts.

Baelish hovers around Robb’s crypt instead, studying it by the light of his lantern. With his black cloak and white fur collar, raised arm, and pale face, to Jon he looks like a vulture. Fitting.

The King in the North loathes to be alone with this man. He always feels on the verge of snapping and throttling that vile son of a snake. Especially when he sees that condescending smirk.

Jon knows better. He can’t trust himself alone with this man, not here, with no sleep. But before he can flee, the vulture looks up and spots him.

He straightens up, turns theatrically, and smirks. “Your Grace! I suppose sleep eludes you as well?”

No, I’m asleep right now, actually. This is how I do it, the king thinks impatiently.

“Aye,” Jon says, reluctantly walking over to Robb’s crypt. He wants to know what Baelish was looking for. He stands next to the man silently, arms folded in front of him. He examines Robb’s newly-finished resting place. The masons did good work.

There’s silence for a while. Until...

“You see me as a threat, don’t you, Your Grace?”

Jon glances sideways at Baelish. “I see you as lots of things, Lord Baelish.” Sometimes I see you in my dreams, your cries for mercy dying away as I crush your neck beneath my boot. “You’re a powerful man, and you didn’t become powerful by accident.”

“Good. You’re a smart man. But you must believe me, I only want what’s best for Sansa.”

“I believe you want Sansa,” Jon replies before he can stop himself, “As a smart man, I know the difference. And I also believe that your desire for her is not what’s best for her.”

Baelish doesn’t know that Sansa’s told Jon about him selling her to the Boltons. He doesn’t know that he’s a dead man walking. That the only reason he still breathes is because Sansa wants to milk him dry of all of his contacts, gold, and secrets before she has him executed. He doesn’t know she’s only pretending to trust him again out of resentment towards the half-brother who was crowned over her. He doesn’t know that she’s faking her apparent receptiveness to his attentions. He doesn’t know that she spends at least a quarter hour every evening detailing how revolting she finds him to Jon. Baelish thinks he’s playing the Starks. He doesn’t know they’re playing him. He’s a man who thinks he knows everything. He knows nothing.

“Oh? The man who got her out of King’s Landing before that lunatic Cersei Lannister executed her for a murder she didn’t commit?”

Jon seethes. You’re the one who framed her! But he’s not supposed to know that.

“A man who immediately let her be kidnapped and tormented by a sadist?”

Baelish flinches. “It was a mistake. But I remind you, when you were both about to fall to that sadist again, I was the one who gathered the men you needed. The army that won you back your home.”

The same men you might have gathered before. The one you could have used to win her her home back without selling her to her raper! Jon is ready to scream.

“If the aid you gave us,” Jon says after several deep breaths, “Came under the condition that you have her, then you’re not the sort of man I trust her with. You are her uncle, I’d remind you. You are the Lord Protector of her cousin. The ward of her grandfather.”

“I made no such condition.”

“Are you making a proposal now?” Jon asks.

“No, that would be improper. I’m just… interested.”

“Yes, you’ve made that clear.”

Baelish snorts. “Not just in Sansa. But in you, how you see me. It’s clear you don’t like me. I can’t imagine why.”

This is a trap. Jon chooses his words carefully. “I don’t like the way you do business. Even in the North, we know what trade you deal in, my lord. I also don’t like how you got your current title. You served the Lannisters very well for years. And were richly rewarded for it. Once you got what you wanted, you betrayed them. Just because it served my interests doesn’t mean I can’t find it suspect.”

“I see. But why would I betray those who so rewarded me to serve the Starks if I didn’t truly care for her?”

“I don’t know. Maybe you do. But even if that’s so, that doesn’t mean you’re right for her. Besides, after what my sister endured, she doesn’t need that sort of attention.”

“She’ll receive it regardless,” Baelish points out, “You of all people know that.”

Jon’s heart begins to thud in his chest. There’s something in the man’s tone... He turns slightly and looks Baelish in the eyes.

“What is that supposed to mean?”

“Though I don’t have any siblings, I understand the instincts of a protective male relation, especially when it comes to suitors. I grew up watching the Blackfish with Catelyn and Lysa. I see hints of it in your little brother. He doesn’t like me, either.”

“We don’t like how you look at her.”

Baelish smirks. “I don’t like how you look at her, either.”

“Excuse me?!”

“Despite what you pretend to think, we both know that when it comes to Sansa, you have far more in common with me than you do with your brother. You don’t care a fig about my business. You don’t care about shifting loyalties. If you did, you wouldn’t be so friendly with the wildlings. The real reason you see me as a threat, Your Grace, is that as a brother, you’re less a Bran Stark and more a Jaime L-”

Jon has him against the wall. He clutches Baelish’s throat the way he’s dreamt of doing for nearly a year. Baelish struggles only a little, grasping Jon’s wrist. He still smirks.

“I observed Jaime Lannister as well,” he chokes out, “I was one of the first to see it! Not hard for a brothel-keeper to notice!”

The King in the North tightens his grip. He can’t stand another word.

The man is silenced, aside from a few choking sounds. His smirk finally drops. His face starts turning blue. And, at last, he looks truly afraid. Now it’s Jon turn to smirk.

“You know nothing, Petyr Baelish,” he hisses, “Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. So why don’t you shut up for once?”

“STOP!”

That voice…

It’s become an instinct with him, the way he responds to that voice. He knows it at once. It commands every ounce of his attention at the slightest syllable. And he cannot resist it.

He drops Baelish, who crumbles on the floor, sputtering and clutching his throat.

In a flash, Sansa’s crouching down on the ground beside him, helping Baelish to his feet. She glares at Jon, who stumbles back.

“What are you doing?” She cries, “You could have killed him!”

Jon swallows. Not ‘could have’. ‘Would have’. Would have killed him.

“You don’t understand, he-”

“-I don’t care!” Sansa snaps, “He’s my friend, Jon! And even if you don’t care about my feelings… Strangling a guest, a vassal, an ally under your own roof?! What are you, a Frey?!”

That hurts most of all. Jon is speechless as Sansa tries to soothe Baelish and escort him towards the exist. It’s only now that Jon notices Ghost. He shares a look with his direwolf, and the beast follows the two out.

Jon sinks to his knees when she gone, clutching his temple. Oh, gods. How much did she hear?

He recalls something his fa--Lord Stark-- once said, “Cutting out a man’s tongue does nothing. It merely tells the world that you afraid of what he has to say.”

What did strangling Baelish tell Sansa?

How will he face her again?

Even if she isn’t convinced now, the idea will be planted. And she’ll be looking for it. And, eventually, she will know for sure.

He was her brother.

~_~_~_~_~_~_~

Sansa:

“He’s a madman!” Littlefinger moans, still clutching his throat as she escorts him back to his chambers. He says much for a man who claims, “He’s broken my neck, I’m sure of it!”

“I’ll have a maester called,” she tells him, depositing him in his rooms. She turns away, as eager as ever to leave him. He reaches for her.

“Sansa… Stay with me, please.” His voice, like the rest of him, is pathetic.

“I will come right back once the maester has been fetched,” she lies, fleeing. Her heart pounds. She gives a quick instruction to an on-duty guard to get Maester Daemon, but then hurries off to Jon’s rooms. He’s not returned, so she rushes back down to the crypts.

She finds him on the floor, back against Lyanna’s tomb, head in his hands. Her heart sinks. Perhaps she’s become too skilled at masking her feelings for her own good.

“Jon.”

He looks up and scrambles to his feet. “My Lady!”

She stifles a giggle. When he’s at his most nervous, he addresses her by title or style. He doesn’t do that with anyone else, she realizes. Only her. Gods, how did she not realize it before?

Sansa walks toward him, gentle smile on her face. “So, what are we to do now?”

“I-I-I don’t know. Have I ruined everything for you?”

“Not everything,” she replies, “Littlefinger has lived out enough of his usefulness, I think. He’s officially become more trouble than he’s worth.”

Jon closes his eyes for a moment. “I’m glad to hear that, at least. But I’m still sorry.”

“Don’t be.” She pauses, take a deep breath, and makes her decision. “You love me. That’s nothing to apologize for. I’ve always wanted to be loved by a good man.”

Jon goes white. “Of course I love you,” he sputters, “You’re my--”

“--Don’t,” she stops him, moving up close and pressing her fingertip to his lips, “Don’t do that. Please don’t pretend anymore.”

Jon closes his eyes again. “Sansa, I didn’t mean for this to happen. I don’t want to be like the others.”

“Mission accomplished.” She smiles. “You’re not.”

She leans forward and presses her lips to his. He’s still for a short time, but then responds enthusiastically. When she pulls her mouth from his, she presses her forehead to his and sighs.

“So I ask again,” she whispers, stroking his cheek, “What are we going to do? You are still a Stark as far as the world knows, and we do not want to provoke the Dragon Queen. So how do you intend to manage this?”

Jon takes a few deep breaths. “I’m not sure. This sort of thing is usually more your specialty. Any suggestions?”

“I suppose we’ll just have to be discreet.” She smiles. “You’ve become a man of many secrets, Jon Stark. Who knew you could be so duplicitous?”

He grins. “I’m not sure. I’m not sure of anything except that I love you.”

Gods, that feels so good. It feels even better to reply, “I love you, too.”

They trade more kisses.

Petyr Baelish is arrested for treason the next day. Sansa revels in the shock on his face as she accuses him. Littlefinger’s trial goes a fortnight. All that time, she and Jon steal wicked kisses whenever they can steal away. They’re like naughty children.

But even he doesn’t know about the things she’s sent for, the materials she’s required. The herbs, shipped in from The Vale, that she hides in little silk bags she keeps in the locked drawer of her desk.

She watches in satisfaction as Longclaw sinks into Littlefinger’s neck, as the blood sprays, as Jon wipes his blade once the deed is done. Their eyes meet as the gallows are cleared. She feels so free.

She feigns a headache at dinner and retires early. She sneaks into Jon’s chambers and slips naked beneath his furs. When he finally enters, his jaw drops at the sight of her. His grey eyes seem to glow with lust in the candlelight as he steps to the side of the bed. She expects him to kiss her.

He does, in a fashion. He drops to his knees, reaches up, grabs her thigh, and pulls her roughly so her spread legs hang over the bed. And he kisses her other set of lips.

Sansa doesn’t know what she expected, but it isn’t this. Her toes curl, her eyes roll back, and she’s as much at his mercy as Baelish was.

She doesn’t mind, as she knows the feeling is mutual.