#its supposed to look like omega flowey

[gurdis]

I was up late at night and I decided to draw a dark world Flowey cause I was thinking about @akanemnon and their Twin Rune thingy ma bobber

[pinkhuman99]

UT POKÉMON TEAMS

...Omega Flowey 👁👄👁

1. Malamar: This Pokémon forces others to do its bidding, much like how Flowey forces the SOULs to attack Frisk during his fight. It is a Pokémon associated with villains and is thought to be the blame behind many horrible, history-changing events. This Pokémon evolves from Inkay, a Pokémon on Chara's team, symbolizing Flowey's connection to Chara and his secret desire to have them back. It also represents Flowey's evolution from a timid child to a manipulator.

2. Trevenant: An evolved form of Asriel's Phantump, it is a Pokémon formed by the soul of a dead child. When it evolves into Trevenant, its root system can control an entire forest. It traps people in forests so they can never leave, the same way Flowey traps Frisk in a loop of torture. Other creatures can live in its body the way the human SOULs inhabit Flowey's body.

3. Ferrothron: This steel and grass type Pokémon looks like the thorny bits of Omega Flowey's body. It is also said to live in caves and caverns. The dual steel and grass typing is a perfect match to Omega Flowey's mis-mashed, eldritch horror form that pulls from organic matter like plants and animals and inorganic matter like a television and wires.

4. Tyranitar: Its name comes from the word "Tyrant". Tyranitar devours whole mountains and can level them in an instant. It is a Pokémon inspired by kaiju, giant Japanese monsters sometimes created through large amounts of nuclear radiation (a nod to the atomic bombs Flowey drops). It is said to have an impudent and insolent nature, so it doesn't care about others. Its body is also supposed to be impervious to physical attacks, like Omega Flowey. It wanders through mountains seeking opponents to fight.

5. Drifblim: Drifblim evolves from Drifloon, a balloon-like Pokémon that appears harmless but can steal away children and take their souls. Drifblim itself is known for its ability, "Aftermath," which causes a huge explosion (another reference to Omega Flowey's fire and bomb based attacks). According to its Pokédex entry, "The raw material for the gas inside its body is souls."/"Some say this Pokémon is a collection of souls burdened with regrets."

6. Coragrigus: This Pokémon looks like a ghost possessing a coffin. It evolves from Yamask, a Pokémon that used to be a human and misses its human life. Cofagrigus steals souls and traps people and Pokémon in its body, wrapping then up and mummifying them to keep them trapped forever. A comparison can be made to Flowey's vines, wrapping people up and keeping them trapped. Like Omega Flowey, this Pokémon possesses several human-like limbs. According to its Pokédex entry: "People say it no longer remembers that it was once human."

As for Omega Flowey's Legendary and Mythical... I chose Necrozma and Spiritomb.

Necrozma: Necrozma steals all light and causes the death of stars; it said to sleep underground. It takes over other Pokémon to steal their light/energy, the way Flowey takes over and uses the human SOULs for power. It is also a nod to the Legendary associated with Asriel, Cosmog. In the Pokémon franchise, Necrozma is the enemy of Cosmog and its evolved forms, Lunala and Solgaleo, stealing their light and taking over their bodies. It's a representation of Flowey's new identity replacing Asriel, and the change he's gone through as a person since he came back as a flower.

Spiritomb: Spiritomb is a Pokémon formed by multiple souls trapped in a Keystone. It is unclear whether every soul in Spiritomb is evil, or just a few. In the Japanese legend that inspired this Pokémon, 108 demons are released from a stone and wreck havoc on the world before they atone for their sins and become the 108 stars. This is an allusion to Flowey's battle, during which the corrupted SOULs become good and begin helping Frisk.

[under-lore]

Omega Flowey or Photoshop Flowey ?

A topic that has been sparking debate is what this form of Flowey should be refered as.

The fandom uses two main names for it : Omega Flowey and Photoshop Flowey.

So where do these two names come from and what name does the game actually use ?

Well, the name “Omega Flowey” does not appear in the actual game. This is because this name was originally a fanmade name for it.

However, despite this, the name did end up being shown on the form’s official tarot card merchandise. It should be known that the tarot cards are not canon. But this name, despite not being an official name, does at least have some kind of official recognition.

The name “Photoshop Flowey” on the other end, takes its origin in the game’s credits.

...Or does it really ?

In those credits, the things that these people have helped with are what’s shown in yellow.

The reason this is important is because, well look at the indentation here. It looks off, doesn’t it ?

this part highlighted in red is empty, but if the intended phrase as to what Everdraed had helped with was “Photoshop Flowey battle Co-design” (which would thus mean the form is called Photoshop Flowey), it would rather look like this instead.

The reason why these lines look the way they do was because these were not supposed to be one singular sentence.

Rather, Everdraed helped with two different things that are thus both shown in yellow.

One of them was “Photoshop” and the other one was “Flowey battle Co-design” Those are two seperate things that Everdraed is being thanked for here.

The name Photoshop Flowey actually comes from a misreading of the game’s credits and isn’t an official name either.

So... If neither of the names is actually official, then how should that form be called then ?

Well, as it turns out, there is actually a third name. The name that Toby Fox used to refer to this form of Flowey in the game files :

“Flowey X”

In an ironic twist, the most canon accurate name to refer to this form is one that nobody uses, and that a good part of the fandom doesn’t even know exists.

[dattosdan]

Kris and Frisk: the difference between levels of control

Ok so ever since Deltarune and specifically Deltarune chapter 2 came out, people have become largely aware of how Kris and the player are not only separate entities but that Kris quite frequently disagrees with and rebels against the player, as well as housing their own opinions differing from the player. This is because Kris is their own person and someone hijacking your life and making you do whatever they like probably sucks, but their motives aside, it's pretty understandable why this happens.

So it got me thinking, why doesn't Frisk, who we control in the same way, seem to rebel against our decisions? Hell, they don't even voice their own opinions that often, unlike Kris who whenever they disagree with our choice shows it directly, Frisk is just mildly annoyed when we pick certain options, like the soda scene from Undyne's house:

This is extremely strange when you consider that they eat spiders and literal garbage with no problem, and the strongest reactions that they have are when they see omega Flowey they back up without player input (Sorry I couldn't find an image or gif.) and that they look like they've seen a ghost after reloading a save file after killing Toriel:

This leads me to believe that while Frisk DOES have a personality and IS a separate entity from the player like Kris, they, for some reason, choose not to intervene with any player choices whatsoever, (Besides maybe the soda since we can't select it).

So why is this? Well, I doubt this theory will ever be answered in Deltarune because I REALLY don't see frisk popping out of a separate universe or anything for a quick cameo, (Though I suppose Kris might BE frisk in Deltarune) so I decided to come up with some theories to explain the discrepancy between uh, "vessels" I suppose.

Theory 1: Frisk CAN'T go against us.

This theory speculates that the reason Kris so strongly goes against our actions and frisk doesn't do so nearly as much, is simply because Frisk CAN'T do so.

This can be for a number of reasons, but its most likely either because, Kris is a teenager while Frisk is a child, so therefor Kris might be able to resist because they're older. Now this can be for a lot of different reasons, Kris's soul for example, seems to be able to do things that Frisk's soul cant, such as lead the party, enhance allies magic, and switch soul modes without outside intervention, so one could speculate that since is older they have better control over they're soul for whatever reason, it could also be a difference in mental strength, or perhaps Kris is simply built different, has more raw power or determination then Frisk, regardless of age.

Theory 2: Frisk CHOOSES to follow what we choose regardless of their own opinion.

This theory is a bit unlikely considering that Frisk, you know, had enough determination to fight against a literal god just because of their friends, and would likely go against even higher forms of powers if they were to harm said friends, but i digress, its just a theory after all.

Anyway, this theory speculates that the reason Frisk doesn't go against us is because they have chose to follow what we say, no matter what it is.

One of the reasons could be that simply, Frisk is a child, and Kris is a teenager, Children are a lot more vulnerable, a lot weaker, and a lot more dependent on authority figures then teenagers are. Besides, Kris is in their hometown, with their friends exploring a place they actively enjoy and want to continue going in to, meanwhile Frisk is going into a mountain full of monsters, who have more then enough reason to kill them, and they KNOW this because they deliberately choose to fall down here, regardless of their motivation for doing so, they are in an extremely unfamiliar place, full of creatures that they've never seen before who engage in fights with them regularly, and regardless of the monsters motivation and whether they actually WANTED to kill Frisk or not, Flowey definitely did, and that was their first encounter down there.

The point is most NORMAL children would be afraid during and after that, so it wouldn't be unlikely that Frisk, follows a mysterious otherworldly being who is probably more adept at these kinds of situation (Due to our experiences playing videogames), and seems to know what to do in every situation, they would probably follow that being, even through a genocide run and onwards because like, what else would they do? They don't have any party members like Kris, and their in an unfamiliar and new environment that they've never been in before.

I think at least, most children would just do what they're told without questioning it, especially in such circumstances, unlike Kris who is a teenager and is likely more independent then Frisk is.

Theory 3: Frisk and the player's motives align.

This theory speculates that while Frisk and the player are separate entities, the things that they want and the way they view the world, coincides with the players viewpoint.

That viewpoint being that the world of Undertale and all its routes, are simply a game, this theory has a few points of evidence:

Unlike Kris, Frisk does seem to have knowledge of previous saves such as the Toriel example above, and getting pissed over sans killing them when they spare him

Alongside Frisk actually trying to reach for the save button in the Asriel fight (Couldn't find a picture for this one either sorry), Kris never does anything like this implying that Frisk knows about, and remembers saves and loads, meaning that they might develop you know, a similar mentality that we have, ie: "It doesn't matter how many times i die, i can just save and load", unlike Kris who displays no knowledge of such powers.

2. Despite doing a genocide run, Frisk doesn't really seem to mind, again despite the fact that Frisk portrays numerous qualities linking them closer the a pacifist route, they don't seem to mind doing a genocide route, again, presumably because they know they can just take it all back anyway.

3. Flowey treats Undertale like a game, Flowey is a creature with the same powers as us, so it could be assumed that Flowey developed this mentality not because he's soulless, but because he had access to the same mechanics that we and Frisk do, so since Frisk HAS those powers, and has most likely had to use them either in the genocide route or before it, they probably know just how much power they hold.

Now this isn't to say that Frisk is evil, I mean the player isn't necessarily evil either, even after doing a genocide or snowgrave routes after all it really is just a game from our Pov, All I'm just saying that Frisk might develop a similar Pov.

I mean thinking logically, would YOU spare a person who just absorbed all your friends, and has most likely killed you many times before? Most people wouldn't but since were just playing a videogame, we can do just that, because lmao sure why not, and that might be true for Frisk as well.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on my theory's? Have your own?

[doomsdaydicecascader]

thoughts on the pq ending?

mixed. mostly bad. 

i really liked the way dirk was written before ult dirk showed up. it’s a very charming portrayal of him, and pesterquest dropping the act that any of mspar’s failures meant anything in the long run while still gesturing at the sierra king’s quest-ass deaths was nice. 

ult dirk in dirk’s route is really good, it’s a really tense conflict and taking the choice out of mspar’s hands and putting it in dirk’s is really, really nice, dirk kind of flipping the patterns of pesterquest on its head is amusing, and candy dave is a nice vibe to add to the scene, even if he looks like /r/relationships made into a human and not at all how i imagined him.

that stuff is fun. it’s like, the best thing the ult dirk conflict can be, by playing ult dirk against his younger self. if ult dirk was a weird offshoot and not like, the main dude, it would own a lot. “X character, but from a timeline where they’re evil” is such a fucking fun trope, but it’s like. supposed to be the same dude we saw in homestuck, and ult dirk isnt just a bad end for dirk specifically.

he’s a bad end for the idea of storytelling in general

and that’s a segue into this: the afterw@rd is almost really good. i wish the director had motivations beyond literally shrugging when asking why things have to exist. 

i dont have any ill will towards aysha and i try not to have ill will against new homestuck in general, these days, since if i leave it unchecked and unmeasured it WILL consume me and nobody wants that toxicity in their life, let alone me. so i try to kind of take post-canon as it comes, try and engage with it on its own terms, but the writing does not vibe with me at all, and aysha having their self-insert outright say “being within a narrative is inherently suffering” while continuing to make homestuck^2 just doesn’t vibe with me at all. 

like i get that “being within a narrative is suffering” is kind of like, the point of post-canon content, but i sincerely just don’t vibe with it. there are a lot of reasons to tell a story, and homestuck^2 has scaled back the pillars of canon into just “a story is canon if it’s compelling” and maybe this is a personal thing but i think that stories that are compelling are stories that have a reason to exist, a statement to make, and maybe i’m just stupid but i don’t know how to apply the idea of “being meguca is suffering” that post-canon seems to build itself around to real life. 

there’s a lot of time spent with the director and dirk arguing, and its presented like a conflict when i don’t think it is. i don’t necessarily see how they disagree, but at least it’s comprehensible this time, which is a step up from how it shows up in other routes. 

official vriska thevriscourse meta plot tier list: A tier: aradia’s route. fun, indulges and is relatively well set upC tier: afterw@rd secret ending. uses known symbols in new ways but isnt necessarily anything new in the long run. D tier: afterw@rd ending proper. pretentious and boring but at least has a decent amount of setupF tier: vriska’s route. unwarranted and detracts from the story around it with an unnecessary interjection 

the Director sending you back to give john the beta seems to completely contradict the way that homestuck has handled retcon powers to begin with, like its a time loop to be corrected, but the thing is, the part where john gets the beta has already been committed to the page and cant be changed without pissing a lot of people off. 

and the game closing when you choose to do anything else that the game presents to you sucks. like. i get it, this is the “you lost to omega flowey, the game closes” thing, but at least undertale had writing and gameplay to back it up, when i don’t think post-canon does. i was mostly just exhausted by it.

the ending for mspar in the semi-secret ending is nice. it’s a little bit puzzleboxy and has a weird bit where it treated the green sun as a Symbol, A Theme, when i never really got anything from it beyond its use as a plot device, but that might just be me not looking at homestuck in the same way as the writers.

aside from that it’s very sweet and i sincerely hope this is the last we see of mspar. if we do, it wouldn’t be the first, nor probably the last time post-canon has wasted its own endings but i will be a little sad about it. 

if post-canon won’t end, the least it can do is give individual characters endings.

[friskibitz]

Wouldn't it be kind of weird to have Frisk in smash? Undertale's whole "pacifism good, fighting bad" thing, and a fighting game? Im not sure i wanna see mario punch and kick the little pacifist kid

Sorry that this is inevitably going to sound blunt, but I really tired of this old and overdone argument. As I intend for this to be the last time I respond to it, I’m going to lay out everything wrong with this.

First of all, Undertale isn’t even “pacifism good, fighting bad”. That’s an extremely surface-level and limited way of looking at it. Asriel even says it himself, “don’t kill, and don’t be killed.” While it absolutely has a message of compassion and resolving conflicts with peace, it’s a more complex theme than just “fighting vs not fighting”, and in fact what UT condemns is murder, of course. Not to mention that Frisk has, in canon, rightfully fought to defend themself without having to go far as to commit murder. Remember the Omega Flowey fight?

Even then, it doesn’t even matter. Metal Gear Solid has deep themes of war and its repercussions. Persona 5 has themes about society and breaking free, along with the Phantom Thieves’ struggle to bring true justice. As Snake and Joker go all out in Smash, do those suddenly matter here? No, Smash operates on a completely different thematic level, that being pretty much No Themes At All, and Snake and Joker are there to celebrate their games in a fun environment. It’s just letting go and having fun, which, if we’re to take this Frisk as a post-pacifist Frisk, would be lovely for them.

On that note, Smash is nowhere near the level of violence of other fighting games. As shown in… everything, from the fun stages to the clapping in the victory screens, it’s basically a fantastical sporting event. In fact, as seen in some characters’ trailers (Isabelle, Joker, Terry, to name a few), it’s even an honor, which makes sense because Smash is a fun crossover meant to celebrate games! Also, so much of the Smash fan content I’ve seen is about the fighters hanging out and being friends, is Smash suddenly not that lighthearted anymore when discussing Frisk?

Also, why is it Frisk of all people getting this level of pushback? To further the point more of how lighthearted this is supposed to be, I hadn’t seen people being this contrary to fighters like Isabelle or Wii Fit Trainer, who don’t have any combat at all in their games. 

I also think the people who keep giving me this argument are also really woobifying Frisk. Yeah, they’re kind, yeah, they’re a pacifist at best, but does that suddenly mean they can’t have fantastical fun? Even in Undertale itself, they’ve even done fantasy combat in non-super violent ways, such as guiding Mad Dummy’s bullets back at her or shooting Mettaton with the yellow SOUL bullets. 

So yeah, that’s the gist of it. I think Frisk as a character should be celebrated in a game like this, to represent Undertale as a whole. They’re my favorite character of all time and I want to see them have some fun. If you can give me a better way to do that then be my guest.

[theadvertisement]

Once Upon A Time Analysis- Part 2

in part one, I referred to Once Upon a Time's parts as one motif, and talked about its relation to Chara. In this post I'll actually talk about its separate parts, and focus on how they relate to the plot.

The theme Once Upon a Time actually has three parts. The first plays while showing the history of the monster human war in the opening cutscene, the second plays while showing Chara climb the mountain and enter the cave, and the third plays while showing Chara falling into the underground and ends the song. It's pretty easy to recognize the separate parts. For the sake of convenience, I'll be referring to these parts as O1, O2, and O3 respectively.

Small disclaimer, this post will be highly speculative. It was hard to get much solid evidence for this. I do believe I have a general idea of what was intended. I just hope there is a pattern and Toby didn't use the different parts where they were because they sounded good because if so then I look like a moron.

Anyways, theory time. This whole thing started with people making connections between Once Upon a Time being the first song in the Undertale OST, and Goodnight being the last song. People made jokes that Undertale was a fairy tale the whole time... but it got me thinking. The use of O3 in Beginning when Deltarune released only intrigued me more.

After some research and thinking it came to be clear to me that Once Upon a Time represents the plotline of a story, specifically the Undertale. Basically, O1 is the beginning, O2 is sort of a climax, and O3 is the ending. Though, it's not quite as simple as I first made it out to be.

Let's go back to the duality of Once Upon a Time, the beginning song, and Goodnight, the end song. Some of you may already be confused and think I'm spouting nonsense. "But if Once Upon a Time is the beginning why does it have all the motifs? And why does Goodnight use O1 if O1 represents the beginning?" I may certainly be spouting nonsense here, but I do have reasons. Once Upon a Time tells a short story in itself. O1 plays during what started it all, the story of the war, the beginning. O2 plays during once we come to 201X, where we see this "climax" of Chara climbing the mountain. Finally, O3 plays showing the aftermath of Chara having fallen into the Underground and laying on the cavern floor. This ending motif ends the intro and leads us into the main game. Now some may already point out this isn't the end of the story, as we see in Asriel's battle that Asriel actually found Chara and helped them, and there's much more that happened than us just starting the game from there. Now that's where the true nature of these motifs are shown, and things get more complicated.

You see Undertale's intro is very misleading. It makes you think that the war was simply a big war between the monsters and humans, but you find out later that it was much closer to an unprompted slaughter by the humans. Most think that Frisk wakes up and we can start the game right after seeing the human fall down in the intro, when it's later revealed to actually be Chara who fell long ago. Just like the intro is misleading, the motifs can reflect that. O3 is a repeating pattern, and in the intro it trails off. It can reflect how this is only the end of the story that we're currently being shown, and that there's really much more that will happen. The trailing off could represent an "end of the beginning" sort of thing. Meanwhile O2 more often than not emphasizes low and sad points in the story, like metaphorical "falls", rather than just the climax. If we look back at the intro, O2 plays while Chara climbs the mountain, and falls into it. While this could be considered a climax like I said before, it makes more sense to be a fall. Not to mention, Chara was probably at a pretty low point in their life right before they ran away and fell into the mountain.

Even more important is O1's use in Goodnight. I theorize, since O1 is supposed to represent the beginning, that its use here represents the irony of the pacifist ending in Undertale. You can easily just reset and play the game again, starting everything over. Undertale is a very meta game, and Flowey will even talk to you about resetting in the Pacifist ending. It's possible O1's use in Goodnight acknowledges that this is never really the end, as there's always the possibility to reset.

Now that I've wrapped up Once Upon a Time and Goodnight, the two endpoints of the plot, I'll go through the other songs that may use Once Upon a Time in this way as well.

Start Menu is hard at the very beginning of the game, which is why O1 would be used. It gradually progresses, carrying O1 with it as it adds more instruments with every monster you befriend. Finally, at the end of the Pacifist route, it adds in O3, which represents how it's the end of your journey.

Home and Home (Music Box) uses O1 as a calming motif to show how you're still at the beginning of your adventure through the underground. It also helps with Toriel's house feeling homely, as your home is where you start your day. Even so, O2 comes in to hint at the tragedy that has happened at this home. It pairs with the traces of the other children that you can find in the room Toriel gave you. It's a bittersweet feeling showing how the previous six humans all fell and had to leave Toriel, eventually dying to Asgore. However, it never uses O3. I believe this to be a subtle hint that the game is telling you it isn't the end, and that you shouldn't stay with Toriel. Like O2 suggests, you have to follow the fallen children and leave her. This is reinforced by how if you go upstairs and sleep before the Toriel fight, Chara will share a memory with you to encourage you to "stay determined" and keep going.

There's the big skip until Hotel and CYRCTHIDRMMPA, which both use O1 and O2. I think the best explanation/theory is in my previous post, in that it pokes fun at the serioussness of the tragedy of Asriel and Chara. But again, O2 is used to show that is still was a tragedy, even in elevator music form.

Later O2 is used in It's Raining Somewhere Else. This could somewhat reflects how you're nearing the climax of the story, as the CORE is the last main area. However, it more likely reflects again, the fallen humans. How horrible it must have been for Toriel to see them leave and to die. The realizing that the story Sans is telling you reveals how much she cared for them and how she cared for you so much she'd ask someone to promise her to protect you. Poor Toriel has gonna through so much and must be worried sick, O2 helps show that.

Now, the Undertale. This whole sequence is a story in itself. While the use of Once Upon a Time is to mainly refer to Chara, how all three of its parts are used are reflected in the story. I'm actually going to go much more in depth into how Once Upon a Time's parts represent the story in New Home, but I will save it for the next and last Once Upon a Time post. For a basic summary though, O1 represents the beginning of the story and then it leading into Undertale, and O2 represents the fall of Chara.

I won't talk much about O1's use in The Choice, since again The Choice is just a section of Undertale with effects layered over it, and The Choice plays in a multitude of places. Though, you could argue how O1 represents how your choice will affect things later, even if that's a bit of a stretch.

Next we move to Fallen Down (Reprise). All three parts are used here, and I believe it represents your entire journey to get here, from beginning to end. Having your friends all meet at the end of the game is a direct result of your pacifist actions to get them here, so it's sort of a little pat on the back for getting this far.

Now Hopes and Dreams. This song, while it uses O1 and O3, never actually uses O2. Odd right? All the monsters you worked so hard to befriend are now trapped in Asriel, who is now all powerful and you have no chance of beating. It's the climatic last stand final battle, where all the odds are against you, shouldn't the motif that represents that be there? Well not exactly. Let's compare this battle to one with a very similar situation, Omega Flowey. Omega Flowey's battle has a consistent theme of hopelessness. You're facing an almost-god, you have no chance! Flowey's attacks swarm you and every time you die he makes fun of you and the fact that you're all alone. Your attacks barely do any damage. Terrifying music plays and the battle is filled with so much chaos and despair. That's why, when the humans souls break free from Flowey and help you it's so impactful. In Asriel's battle, he's even more powerful, but there's not that feeling of hopelessness. Before the battle all your friends are supporting you, you don't feel as alone in the battle. When you die instead of getting a cruel joke from Flowey and your game crashing, Frisk literally refuses to die. You get hopes and dreams as healing items. Hell, the name of the song is Hopes and Dreams! You're constantly supported and encouraged to keep going. There's no sense of hopelessness, you actually feel like you can win this battle. Everyone is counting on you. Flavor text in the battle even tells you, "It's the end." which is why O3 is used so much. As for O1, why would it be used? If it's the end, why would the motif that represents the beginning be here? Well, I believe it represents that while this is the final battle, Asriel is still thinking in the past. He is still holding onto the foolish idea that you must be Chara, and he can still keep you around to stay with him.

These same things apply to SAVE the World, though it's possible that with how O1 is modified it might also represent your journey that led you to befriend everyone that is now helping you, and how it's coming full circle.

With Reunited, which uses all three, it's probably very similar to Fallen Down (Reprise), where it represents your entire journey to get here.

Bring It In, Guys! using O1 at the end really doesn't need much explanation. It's already a compilation of a bunch of the game's songs, why not end it off with the starting motif? Also from the previous post, it shows a colored version of the view of Mt. Ebott from the intro, where Once Upon a Time plays, so there's that.

Last Goodbye is pretty much a remix of SAVE the World, though it does include O2 in the beginning. This may be because it's, well the Last Goodbye, goodbyes are sad you know? You finished the game and not you can't play it for the first time again. Awesome as it is it's still a farewell song, but it doesn't spend much time on it and gets straight to partying.

We've already talked about Goodnight, so I'll move onto Deltarune songs! Before the Story was actually first used in the menu screen on PS4, and considering it's literally called *Before* the Story, it makes sense that it uses O1.

Beginning had such a nice nostalgia throwback using O3. It's possible that it's just using O3 like Undertale's into, leading to what's to come, "the end of the beginning" of sorts.

We don't get any instances of Once Upon a Time until You can Always Come Home, which is a remix of Home. The use of O1 is because it's Home, but notice how O2 is missing, replaced by Don't Forget. O3 also appears at the end with some flutes on top of Don't Forget. The reason O2 is gone is probably just because Don't Forget fit better, but may also be because this time you get to stay with Toriel, as well as the fact as far as we know there's no dead children that used to live here. And O3 would just be because it's the end of the chapter, and you finally get to come home and end the day.

Finally we have Dog Check, the song that plays on Deltarune's error screen. It usesO2 briefly, before leading into Don't Forget. In all seriousness I doubt Toby was thinking about how these parts would reflect the story, and just wanted to make a chill song using the motifs. But if you really want an explanation, O2 represents the depressed player that with a corrupt game that's giving them an error screen, and now had to figure out why Deltarune won't start. Yup that seems good.

And that's all the songs that use Once Upon a Time. Again I may be completely wrong, but I noticed some patterns and made some theories I wanted to share on this. Make of it what you will. Next post I will go more in-depth into the song Undertale, then we're done with Once Upon a Time.

[debrisyume]

Deltarune Theories

This is super late, I know. I’m only posting this after most people stopped caring about the game but I really wanted those who are interested to know what theories I am going with. I actually like the fact that I did it like this because people have noticed and discussed interesting things months after the game was released.

Warning, I don’t think I bring much of anything new to the table with my theories, but I still want to put my thoughts into context so people know where I stand currently. Also imagine everything has a disclaimer that says “This is what I think but I’m prepared to be wrong when the full game comes out.” After all, we don’t know how much of the story we’ve been shown, it could be less than a third for all we know. And I think there’s a lot of lore we aren’t aware of right now.

It might sound kinda fanfiction-y at some points (not that fanfic is bad, but fanfiction doesn’t rely on evidence, I probably discuss a lot of headcanons here with little no backup). Also, this is super long (perhaps excessively so). I’ve broken it up into sections for more easy reading, and I have a short list of my most important or favorite theories at the end, but without explaining why I like them or the evidence for it. If you’re confused or don’t like a theory of mine, I recommend reading the part where I talk about it to at least understand my perspective.

Let’s talk about the ending scene first because I have some... thoughts about it.

That Ending

Ok, first of all, I’m 100% completely certain that the red soul Kris took out doesn’t belong to them. They were definitely possessed by it. I used to think it was theirs but then we took control of it and Kris was willing to get rid of their soul to stop being possessed, but that ended up being too convoluted.

Also, a big piece of evidence that pretty much confirms it’s “our” soul is how Gaster literally summons the red soul for the survey. (“ARE WE CONNECTED?”) Presumably it was going to be put into our created vessel, but then Chara dunked it and Gaster had to make do with Kris. (Or maybe it was Chara who put it inside Kris but I strongly suspect it was Gaster, because Chara was cut off when they were saying “Your name is...” This link also provides evidence toward Chara working with Gaster. They consider Frisk/the player their partner, an equal, and see themselves as a servant for Gaster)

Probably the biggest indication towards Kris being possessed by the soul is the whole ball of junk sequence. They don’t want to throw it away, but we force them to do it and they are clearly upset by it. Not to mention how we can still control the red soul inside the cage by moving it around a little. I don’t see how the ending could be anything but Kris trying to take back control of their own body.

Now, I don’t think Kris is evil. I don’t think they want to kill anyone, I can’t think of a reason why they would want to kill anyone so I’m not expecting it. Their LOVE is at 1 and we never heard about them being violent. There is a big gap between somewhat creepy and mean pranks + social awkwardness, and literal murder. They’ve also done things outside of the soul’s control that make them being evil unlikely in my eyes, they protect Susie and they call her their friend. They also clearly care about Asriel and miss him deeply.

Why would they throw away the first friend they made in years and ruin their relationship with Asriel by killing people in their hometown? I believe the knife thing was just a threat towards the soul, to scare it into leaving them alone. All Chara similarities are because they’re like Chara, not being possessed by them.

I believe they used to have a red soul themselves, but it was taken from them or lost somehow (their similarities to Frisk and Chara are way too stark and prominent for me not to think they had a red soul). For probably a long time they were soulless. We see how being soulless affects Flowey, he can’t feel love, compassion, or hope. I think Kris being soulless like this worsened their already terrible depression, and while they were able to get those feelings back through the new red soul, they aren’t willing to be controlled like that, so they got rid of it. Maybe they’re hoping to get their own soul back one day.

Also, I suspect that Kris has been possessed before, which is why I think they haven’t had their own soul for some time already. The rusty cage they used to trap the soul ‘has seen some use before’. There’s also a suspicious stain by that cage. I believe the first few times they had to rip a soul out, their body couldn’t handle it well and... yeah...

I don’t have a clue why Kris moves the way they do before ripping out the soul though. They walk very similar to how Frisk is described to walk in the Genocide Route, “shambling about from place to place.” But that was as a result of the LOVE they gained, right? It doesn’t look like Kris is controlling their own body well either, and the footsteps from the Dark World... maybe prolonged possession really hampers Kris’ own control of their body. They are described as looking sick in Hometown, which implies being possessed made them sick... someone help them already.

Kris’ Weapon

I would like to talk about the knife for a second too. So, their weapon is listed as “pencil” and not knife. I don’t know about you, but a pencil sounds like a pretty shitty weapon, especially if I already have a knife with me. But, what if Kris didn’t always have that knife with them? I know this will sound kinda crazy, but I think they summoned it with magic (Chara/Frisk/Kris has a strong resemblance to one of humanity’s seven greatest magicians, the poncho human, so this doesn’t come across as that unlikely to me. I think Poncho Human is one of those magicians because they’re always seen as toward the front/leading the humans, including when the barrier was being made, although I will admit this isn’t really confirmation).

We already seen this happen in Undertale. No matter what weapon you have equipped in the Omega Flowey fight, the knife animation will always play when you attack him, even if the knife isn’t in your inventory. This happens in other instances too like when Chara kills Sans, Asgore, and Flowey for you. Kris does look like they reached into their pocket for the knife, but I still believe it wasn’t there initially, otherwise the knife would be their “weapon.”

Is the Red Soul really supposed to be us?

Back to the soul, I don’t think the soul belongs to the player specifically. While I think it’s a valid theory, it kinda makes me uncomfortable, similar to the player theory in Undertale which I used to believe in. It’s not just that though, I believe the red soul has a good chance of belonging to Frisk.

Think about it, the red soul knows things Kris shouldn’t know about, they recognize Sans (and Sans probably recognizes the soul but is pretending not to know anything about what’s going on), they ask Undyne about Alphys, who’s supposed to be her girlfriend in the universe they came from. They also explicitly can’t play piano, unlike Kris, which excludes many players. Kris’ Dark World outfit matches Frisk’s usual clothes very well, and then there’s the flirting thing.

The vessel we made at the beginning has two stripes on their shirt, and their soul is red... like... a certain someone... we’re familiar with... it can’t be Chara, because Chara is the one who got rid of our vessel. And what was Chara doing before they got cut off? Telling Frisk a phrase similar to ones they heard before (Despite everything, it’s still you. Try as you might, you continue to be yourself. No one can choose who they are in this world.) and trying to remind Frisk of what their true name is (“Your name is...” a direct parallel to the flashback when Asriel introduces himself to Chara, but the flashback ended before he could, so we only heard “My name is...”) because apparently Frisk forgot who they were.

Anyone else find the survey questions weird? Besides how the speaker clearly isn’t too familiar with humans, none of them particularly identify a personality, they’re all about favorites or physical things. Gaster summoned Frisk’s soul for a specific purpose, but apparently they don’t need to be completely “themselves” to fulfill that purpose?

Also, if the red soul is supposed to be the player, not only is the bad piano playing oddly exclusive, but so is the color. We know from UT that each soul color had a virtue to go along with it, yet ours is always red, like Frisk and Chara’s. You could just wave it away as being red because it was our previous player character’s, but I still think it’s weird because Toby could have let us choose our own soul color or made a small quiz that picked our virtue for us. I still think red has its own virtue, despite us not knowing it. It can’t be determination, because DT is some sort of magical substance that exists in all humans (it’s also too similar to perseverance to be a separate trait). I have my own ideas, but maybe we’ll find it out in this game? Either way, there’s no reason it has to be red in particular, if it’s meant to represent the player, unless we’re actually playing as a character with a red soul.

Now that I’ve established that I think the red soul is Frisk, I need to explain what kind of Frisk. I think this Frisk is older, closer to Kris’ age than how old they were in Undertale. It must be after a pacifist run, because that’s the only run where Alphys and Undyne get together, although I haven’t decided yet if it’s regular pacifist or soulless pacifist. The way Chara talks reminds me more of their Genocide run self, not to mention the callback to the soulless pacifist ending in DR.

The thing about determination in Deltarune’s universe is that I think it still exists, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to save and reload at all, but that it hasn’t been named or even have much research to it at all. After all, the one who discovered it was Alphys, after Chara and Asriel were long dead. And Alphys in this universe isn’t a scientist. Kris also seems to be aware they can save, but their save file is weirdly empty...

The Dark World isn’t Real, kinda (but neither is Hometown, kinda)

Now, pretty much everyone has considered the idea that the Dark World is not actually real. The food isn’t filling, after completing a playthrough you can skip going to school and just go back to sleep to come to the Dark World, the areas and characters each have a counterpart in the unused classroom (except for Ralsei, hmm). Kris’ pencil also turns into a sword, we can tell because if they get the spooky sword, they come back with a Halloween pencil.

I don’t think it’s as simple as the Dark World being fake though. The idea of Kris and Susie having some sort of shared dream experience is weird, and all the roleplaying theories make no sense to me (why would Susie participate when she only starts caring about Kris toward the end of their journey?). All the characters not being real just makes me sad, and the adventure feels hollow of if it was just imagination.

I believe the Dark World is a pocket dimension of some sorts, influenced by what goes on in Hometown (Seam being old is because ‘stuffed animal Seam’ is worn out after some years). It might be pretty dependent on Hometown to exist, but all the characters are perfectly sentient and have their own agency. Think... idk what goes on in Toy Story or Spirited Away?

However, I also believe Hometown is fake in some way, or at the very least, there’s some shady magic stuff going on. While on the surface it seems like a perfectly normal town where monsters are happily living above ground, seemingly never been trapped by humans in the first place, most of the characters we know are unhappy in some way. Bratty and Catty hate each other, Alphys and Undyne don’t know each other, Mettaton isn’t confident and seems pretty depressed, being a teacher is literally the worst job Alphys could have, etc.

There’s also things that feel super off. The way Toriel acts as a parent to Kris feels like a downgrade from Undertale, Asgore is living in poverty and no one is really helping him (almost makes me wonder if he was never a king in this universe?). Why don’t Alphys and Undyne don’t know each other, anyway? The town is pretty damn small and they both hold job positions that would make them well known, especially given how it seems like only Toriel and apparently Blooky is the other teacher/officer respectively.

Why is there a stain in Kris’ room that Toriel doesn’t seem to care about, even just to clean? Why is she overprotective to the point of punishing Asriel for being kissed by a girl? Why is Asriel the only character living his best life? He’s alive, he’s popular, his family is proud of him, while is Kris is seen as a creepy loner.

The lights in the school not reflecting the correct way, assuming that was deliberate (considering its similarities to the judgement hall, which is weird on its own, I’m betting it is). The way Toriel’s doorknobs on multiple doors work should be impossible. That fucking bunker?? Why is it there?? Why is Gaster’s music playing there?? IM SO UNSETTLED

Anyway, my point is I have to wonder if Hometown is fabricated in some way. I like to think of it as a world someone created that isn’t completely finished, or something went wrong in the process. This post talks about a great idea about how the Deltarune universe is meant to be an “ideal AU” for Asriel and Chara (Asriel creating the Dark World while Hometown was done by Chara) and I’ve been really into it since I first read it. It just makes a lot of sense to me. I believe it was done with the help of Gaster, who has his own agenda going on, which is why things aren’t perfect.

What’s up with Kris?

Now, about Kris’ identity. It’s hard for me to believe they’re completely separate from either Frisk or Chara because of the similarities they all share. Kris’s skin and hair colors match Frisk’s perfectly, but their personality seems to match Chara more. They’re quiet (we never hear Chara’s voice in the videotapes), the demon horns headband are very much Chara’s style, they like being creepy, while Chara’s hair doesn’t cover their eyes when see them at the end of the Genocide run, we never actually see their eyes in the flashbacks, they’re also both very close to Asriel.

I also think it’s important to mention that Deltarune takes place in 202X, while Chara fell in 201X, and Frisk fell much, much later. I’ve seen people liken Kris to a “Chara self-insert” and it makes a lot of sense to me in the context of Deltarune being a created AU. I’m more in the “Kris is an AU Chara” boat than “fusion who’s taking the place of both” or “AU Frisk”, because personality sticks out more to me than physical stuff. But the “self-insert” idea could explain away the name and appearance differences. Chara could see Frisk as a better version of themselves, taken stuff like Asriel saying Frisk “is the friend he wished he always had” to heart, and unconsciously mold this AU version of them to resemble Frisk more.

Essentially Kris is Chara’s OC in the same way Ralsei and the Absolute God of Hyperdeath are to Asriel. Not to mention since I think Frisk is the red soul, the idea of them possessing an AU version of themselves is a bit... odd, but if it’s an AU Chara than it’s almost a reverse of the situation they two had in the Undertale (although I don’t think Chara took control outside of certain instances). Which is a fun idea to me! Like Underswap but angsty teen edition, haha.

Tbh, the idea of Kris being an “AU Chara” is more just my personal preference, as it goes well with a lot of headcanons for Chara (I had one that they played the piano before Deltarune came out, for instance), however, I can admit that some sort of fusion between Frisk and Chara (heck, their name is even a combination of the two, ‘Chris’! It’s probably spelled as Kris because that’s more gender-neutral, I bet) seems more likely at this point, no matter how weird I personally find it.

By the way, I strongly feel that Kris would have a different outfit in the Dark World if they had their own soul instead of Frisk’s soul inside of them. I can see theirs following a similar knight theme, but it wouldn’t have a blue and pink color palette.

Also, I have to wonder if maybe Kris was Chara’s old name back in Undertale? It’s not a stretch to imagine that they chose their name before meeting Asriel the same way we chose Chara’s name in the beginning of Undertale. But, if it’s a case of Kris being Chara’s old name, I think it’s just that they haven’t figured out their ‘true name’ yet because they never heard of ‘Chara’ before, rather than everyone disrespecting their wishes. Frankly, the idea of everyone misgendering/deadnaming Kris intentionally makes me uncomfortable and also comes across as pretty OOC for the monsters.

To pacify or not pacify?

I said before that I’m uncertain as to whether Deltarune is a sequel to post-pacifist Undertale or post-soullless pacifist, but I think if it was the soulless version, it would give us a good explanation for how Gaster acquired Frisk’s soul (Toby could easily explain it away as void fuckery powers but whatever). Chara could have been to the one to give it to him, because they are technically in possession of Frisk’s soul.

I still consider the soul to be Frisk’s even if they gave it to Chara. We already know from the Omega Flowey and Asriel fights that even when someone else is using the soul, the person will still exist in some way. Even if Chara owns the soul now, it’s still made from Frisk’s essence. Also, Chara and Gaster seem to be working together, I think Chara gave the soul to him and that’s how the survey got started. And since it’s not in Chara’s body anymore/Chara could have just given up ownership of it, Frisk is the only one in control of it now.

Frisk isn’t evil they just lack empathy and occasionally go into a dissociative state where they commit atrocities

(The title is supposed to be a meme reference don’t take it too seriously, although I always liked the headcanon that Frisk struggles with empathy more than people think). You guys might be thinking I’m being too harsh on Frisk. They’re possessing Kris, they probably did a Genocide run, etc. Well, I don’t think any worse of Frisk than I do for Flowey. They (along with Chara) are just traumatized kids in messed up circumstances with way too much power in their hands. Frisk also never consented to being put into Kris. I don’t think they have any idea what the fuck is going on.

You can answer ‘no’ to multiple questions in the survey and it continues on as if you answered yes, they probably thought the whole thing was weird and kinda shady, but they literally had no choice but to go through with it. They were also under the impression that their vessel would be the new artificial human they’re creating, not someone who already has a life. I’m also not sure if they have a good way to communicate with Kris and hear their thoughts on everything. Frisk might be able to talk to Kris through narration, but not hear what they want to say in return, only some of their feelings. Or they’re not able to talk to each other at all, which just makes the situation harder on both of them.

Frisk can do many things that unintentionally hurt Kris, like hugging Ralsei when Kris doesn’t like hugs, but that seems to be a case of ignorance. As far as I know, there’s only one thing Frisk can do that’s deliberately bullying them, which is breaking the ball of junk (it’s also crappy if they named it that way when Kris clearly likes it). That is pretty shitty of them, but it’s not too far off from the jerk things you can do in Undertale, liking eating the snowman piece in front of the Snowman or letting Monster Kid fall to their possible death, as far as Frisk knew (all on a pacifist run too!).

Frisk still needs to apologize to them, but I think the two will be able to mend things together eventually. I’m hoping they will because I’ve already thought a lot about their possible friendship after they reconcile lol (This is going to be one of those theories I’m sad about if it’s not true)

I would also like to say that if Frisk has ever met the Gaster followers/Gaster himself (which you can do without hacking in updated versions of Undertale) during a couple of timeline resets then they might feel an obligation to help him, even if they have a bad feeling about it.

Chara and Gaster are playing tug-of-war (and I want the old man to lose because I’m biased)

Back to Chara and Gaster working together, I believe this is almost certainly what’s happening, but they definitely seem to have different goals, or at least different ways of going about it. The way Chara takes over gives me the impression they’re arguing with Frisk caught in the middle. I’m uncertain as to why Chara discarded the vessel, but I doubt they killed the little guy. Maybe possessing a Goner Human would have unpleasant consequences we aren’t aware of.

From what we know of goners, they essentially don’t exist in the same way Gaster doesn’t. Maybe, people would be able to acknowledge us at first, but overtime, similar to Gaster, our existence is forgotten while our accomplishments still exist. I’m expecting them to come back eventually. I like the idea of them being The Knight, although that would require some weird timeline stuff going on, like the period between our vessel being discarded and the red soul being put inside Kris to have taken a much longer time than we thought.

As I mentioned before, I think Gaster was the one to put the soul in Kris, not Chara. My reasoning for this is how Chara gets cut off when telling the soul their name. Gaster could have went with Kris because they’re the best fit (being a human, presumably used to being possessed— notice also how despite clearly not liking being controlled, they still do everything we say) and how they’re already a part of the Legend, apparently, so they were supposed to go the Dark World the whole time.

If Chara was the one who did it, then I think it’s because since Frisk is “their partner”, Chara wants them to work with this AU version of themselves. If Kris is supposed to be Chara, then I can also see Chara just not caring about their comfort or what they want, since Chara always seemed to have a low opinion of themselves, I doubt they’d care much about an AU version.

Otherwise, well, the Chara that gets corrupted by LOVE by the end of the Genocide Route seems to treat everything with apathy unless it has to do with power and irresponsible people getting what they deserve, so they still probably wouldn’t really care much about what Kris wants. Chara could have also thought they were helping by giving them a soul, even if it’s a soul that will control them.

Btw, I doubt Chara has completely bad intentions even if this is the Genocide run version of them, nothing to do with a massacre at least. They’re not even directly interfering with the world besides the vessel thing, Gaster is the one’s in charge of our game over screen (something I think is important and will get back to later!) and we’re the one who chooses to fight people. It’s just that the Darkners run away before we can kill them. Chara has also never been above doing questionable things for the greater good, just look at the buttercup plan.

Suzy/Susie, also that other lizard teen

As far I’m concerned right now, Suzy from Undertale is the same Susie from Deltarune, similar to Chara and Kris’ connection, she’s just younger. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if Suzy is a different character and she’ll appear later in the game. I’m thinking she’s another monster rather than a human, if she isn’t Susie herself. The reason I’m being cautious about whether they’re alternate counterparts is that Catty and Catti are separate characters, despite having very similar names. I wouldn’t be surprised if Suzy and Susie are actually related in Deltarune.

Also, if the soul is a post-pacifist Frisk like I think it is, and Suzy is Susie, then I definitely think Frisk became friends with Suzy after the barrier was broken. I imagine a younger Susie would be more mellow and less of a bully, and Frisk could be a good source of support when she’s dealing with her problems. I think even if they aren’t the same person, it’s likely that Frisk knows Suzy if she’s a monster.

Goner Clamgirl specifically told Frisk they’ll be meeting Suzy soon, so if she isn’t Susie, we’ll definitely see her eventually. And if this is post-soulless pacifist... well, I never thought Chara killed everyone, I thought it was a threat to scare Frisk into behaving or remind them/the player of what they’ve done. Kinda hard to be completely happy with your family and friends while being haunted by the fact that you killed them before.

Monster Kid is kinda screwing with me. Their horns are pointing the opposite side of where they did in Undertale, this is significant because Goner Kid’s horns point the same way as DR Kid. We already know of one goner living a normal life in Deltarune, could DR MK be Goner Kid while UT MK is... uh... MIA, in the Deltarune universe, for the lack of a better term? They act exactly the same though, which is pretty weird. I am still very concerned.

The Narrator is more confusing than Gaster at this point

Now, one of the mysteries that is fucking with me the most is who the narrator is. I don’t think it’s Kris, the use of ‘you’ and other things (Kris got the hot chocolate, you felt a feeling of relief @ the ball of junk not being thrown away is clearly about Kris) doesn’t really fit it being Kris in my head. There’s a lot of similarities with Chara but too many odd things as well... it uses the exact phrasing but with notable differences. The cactus isn’t tsundere, “it’s only you” feels VERY off and kinda mean since Kris isn’t exactly alone anymore... It’s sometimes stiff and brief, similar to the Genocide run narration at times, but it also has its playful moments “It’s good to conserve water” when choosing not to flush the toilet, and the whole “perpetrating the cycle” when talking about the moss.

I like to think it’s a Frisk trying to mimic Chara at times, actually. “He cannot be reasoned with, but don’t give up...!” when checking the Spade King gives me strong Frisk vibes. Also “It's quite small, but some people REALLY like it,” for the choco diamond implies the narrator isn’t a huge fan of chocolate (which Kris and Chara are, the choco diamond heals Kris the most). It’d also make the most sense, if the red soul is Frisk, for Frisk to be the narrator.

However, something that feels off for both Frisk and Chara as narrator candidates is that the narrator seems familiar with Kris. They know Kris can save (“the light only you know”), they know which locker belongs to them and Asriel, they know Kris’ and Asriel’s old Halloween costumes are from 8 years ago specifically... which is... extremely weird? How can Chara or Frisk know these things if they’ve never been to this world before?

Which leads me to my crackpot theory, the narrator is college!Asriel who’s actually dead. THINK ABOUT IT. It’s definitely wrong but whatever. For now my favorite candidate is Frisk but who fucking knows. I’d even accept Gaster at this point, and I hate that theory for Undertale. It’d be too easy if they’re not meant to be character in this game, I think it is supposed to be someone.

ALSO ALSO important fact is that they are definitely narrating to Kris. They refer to Toriel and Asriel as “your mother and brother” and there’s stuff like “You really didn’t want to throw it away.” So the narrator is talking to Kris and not to the soul. I think this is significant.

But yet ANOTHER weird thing about this is “the power of reoccurring bake sales shines within you” line (or whatever, can’t remember the exact phrasing). There’s only one bake sale in Deltarune, but this makes sense in the context of a post-Undertale playthrough, because we experienced more bake sales there. But that means the narrator (Chara I guess, if we’re just going off of this line) is talking to Frisk... which can’t be possible because I already established how they’re clearly talking to Kris, not the soul... (the narrator talking to more to one person or there being two narrators would get way too confusing too fast, like, how are we supposed to figure out who’s who or who exactly they’re talking to if there’s more than one for either?)... and yet if it’s Frisk talking to Kris this line is still strange... because Kris has only been to one bake sale before... you guys understand yet why the narrator mystery is frustrating to me???

Gaster isn’t evil but he’s probably worst void grandpa ever

I do not trust Gaster. I do not trust him at all (I also don’t trust Ralsei). I don’t think he’ll be a traditional villain though. It’d be kinda hypocritical of me to assume the worst of him when I’m such a big Chara fan. The problem is we barely know anything about him. With Chara, we have just enough info to figure out likely motivations, backstory, and personality (from the narration). I have an idea about what Gaster wants but not much about why he’s going about it in this... pretty convoluted way.

I think Gaster wants to be whole again, I think he wants to go back to his friends and family. However, he’s going too far and is fine with people getting hurt as long as he can achieve his goal. Being shattered across time and space probably fucked with his mind at least a little bit. And after a while of nonexistence he’s probably gotten desperate. I’m thinking he’ll be a helpful, if confusing, ally at first, then as we learn more about what he wants he’ll turn into an antagonist. And it will end in an redemption.

Also since there’s apparently an actual debate about this, Gaster is definitely involved with Deltarune, along with Chara. I’m uncertain as to how big Chara’s role is, but Gaster will certainly be a big part of the game. The post I linked about Chara discarding the vessel has undeniable proof it was them, and there’s wayyyy too many hints about Gaster around for him not to be in the game. The speaking style of the one who gave us the survey matches exactly with how Gaster speaks in Entry 17, his music motifs are everywhere (when we call the phone number, the area around the bunker, etc) at least one of his ‘followers’ is up and alive, Seam directly quotes his iconic “darker, yet darker” line... like, there’s no way he’s not involved.

Now, the game over screen is very interesting. Gaster asks us if we want to continue on after we die, and if we say no, the world was “covered in darkness” and we get to listen to some very pretty, but melancholy and slightly ominous music, while we wait in the blank void for Gaster to let us restart. It reminds me of when Chara destroys the world and there’s only howling winds to listen to until they decide to talk to us. Actually, the more I compare the two, the more similar these scenes are.

Frisk is at the mercy of a being more powerful than them, who’s the one that gets to decide if they can continue interacting with the world (with Chara you have to convince them to remake the world). Gaster doesn’t let Frisk reload the timeline themselves, almost as if Gaster is the one with control over the timeline. Gaster bluntly tells Frisk that they failed to save the world, puts them in a time-out as some, frankly, kinda messed up punishment for saying no to restarting, and after a while of presumably contemplating their failure, it’s only then that Gaster lets Frisk try again.

I read a very cool theory that at the start with the survey, when you accept the agreement, you give up your determination to Gaster. This lets the Game Over screen make a lot more sense in context. Gaster is the one who gets to decide when we get to reload the timeline and even where (I saw someone point out that Kris & company typically don’t respawn right by a save point like in Undertale, rather closer to where you last died, that only happens a few times in UT I believe). If this is true that’s... more than a little concerning, but it’s cool too!

Ralsei isn’t evil but he’s certainly suspicious

NOW, let’s talk about everyone’s favorite fluffy boy! Evil Ralsei sounds like the most boring and predictable twist ever. But I’m willing to bet money that there will be a couple of twists with Ralsei’s motives and who he actually is. It’s kinda interesting how Ralsei knows Kris and Susie’s names already, and that he’s the one who tells Kris to direct the soul to Susie, obviously to help out Susie, but maybe also to have a private conversation with Kris?

Gaster never intended for the vessel to be discarded, so it was most likely going to take the place of the human from the prophecy, yet Kris is also one of those “wonderful people” we’re going to meet (Gaster says something to this affect when we name ourselves Kris, note that he only does this with major characters like Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle, who looks like she’s joining us later, and says something different when we call ourselves Toriel, Sans, etc). What I’m getting at is that I’m pretty sure Ralsei either knows the name of the “creator”, the vessel, or both even, and that Kris was also going to join our adventure despite being an extra human. Similar to how Noelle is apparently an extra monster for the Legend.

Back to Ralsei, he definitely seems to know more than he lets on, and could also be lying about some things. It’s pretty interesting that the Spade kingdom’s fountain is the one that was made recently and that we’re supposed to destroy, in contrast to Ralsei’s fountain, which, despite apparently being around for longer, doesn’t have his own subjects? Yet another interesting thing is how Ralsei is usually referred to as a Lightner when he’s with Kris, or with both Kris and Susie.

If Ralsei is hiding something or lying about stuff, I don’t think he’s doing it maliciously. It could be directions from Gaster or something like that. Ralsei’s similarities to Asriel are also very suspicious, and I find the idea of those two not being related at all extremely unconvincing. He acts like a goody two shoes version of Asriel, with his flaws relating to how much of a doormat he is. He’s basically the inverse of the Absolute God of Hyperdeath. Despite how much he advises against fighting anyone, he lets us fight people as much as we please.

Personally, I think he’s a post-pacifist Flowey. It just makes sense to me. Ralsei looks like he’s trying to imitate his idea of Frisk (you can play Frisk as a huge jerk in pacifist yet Asriel still thinks Frisk is super cool), and thinks nonviolence is the way to get the happy ending. He also uses some of the same lines as Flowey in the first battle of the game. I think he’s being manipulated somewhat by Gaster, probably regarding his memories, so he’s actually being genuine as opposed to putting on an act. Although the idea of Ralsei trying to guilt trip us when we drop the manual too many times is hilarious. I also like to think his Light World form is a flower.

The Skeleton Brothers

Last but not least, Sans and Papyrus. Sans, like always, seems to know more about what’s going on. You could interpret Sans as not knowing who we are, but I think he’s actually trolling us. He acts like he knows Kris at first, probably because he’s aware that we don’t know this is their first meeting. “Look who it is! How’s it going kid?” is what you say to someone you met before, I don’t care what anyone says.

Pretending to know someone is a weird joke for a first meeting, imo, unless he means it as a inside joke for Frisk, and isn’t really talking to Kris at that moment. Then, when we say “great to see you again” Sans pretends we’re a weirdo to make fun like he usually does, not giving away that he recognizes Frisk’s soul and putting them on edge as a result (probably failing on the latter at least lbr), so Frisk gets to feel sheepish while Kris is confused as fuck.

I’m not... completely certain from what timeline Sans is, and I’m pretty certain it’s a Sans from one of the Undertale timelines, with the joke about knowing us and how he’s the only returning character with an unchanged sprite. The easiest would be a Genocide run, maybe he didn’t really get killed and if that’s the case, he really has nothing left to live for so might as well go to a different universe, especially if the anomaly is running around and possibly mucking things up again. But why does he have Grillby’s bar with him? I guess he did leave it behind in the Genocide timeline and he said he’s “going to Grillby’s” so that would make sense.

But what about Papyrus? Papyrus throws the biggest wrench in these theories about this being the same Sans because we don’t know anything about this Papyrus. If it’s the DR version of Papyrus then that means there’s a DR version of Sans around with no little brother, and I can’t see UT Sans being that selfish. Post-pacifist would work better, I think. Papyrus is alive in that timeline and maybe if it was important enough they’d leave their friends behind to the DR universe but I kinda can’t see them doing that?

Any other timeline besides Pacifist and Genocide doesn’t work because Grillby never leaves his bar alone for Sans to take (I can’t see him doing that if Grillby is still tending to it). Although I will say if this is a Papyrus who knows who Frisk is, I can see Papyrus being able to play dumb about the similarities he sees between Kris and Frisk, including the soul. He’s always been good at hiding how powerful he is (and seems to be aware of Sans’ teleportation and study of different timelines), so he could just leave more hints about the apparent dimensional travel going on between these games but never being too obvious about it.

Also, I have to say I don’t think either of them are aware of Gaster being involved, although I could be wrong, there’s not much to indicate for either or. Oh, and since Gaster seems to be such a big deal in this game, I think we have a good chance of finally knowing more of the skelebros’ backstory.

Predictions for the full game

There’s no way “your choices don’t matter” is going to be 100% endorsed by the game, even with only one ending. I feel like the ending will be like the “despite everything, it’s still you” line, ie it’ll have a different feel depending on what you do. That particular mirror line still appears whether you do pacifist or when you’re at LV 18. It sounds bittersweet and affectionate when you’ve shown mercy, but when you’ve been pretty dusty, it sounds almost... judgmental. Like wow, you didn’t improve yourself at all, huh?

We already kinda see this with when you fight the Darkners or spare them all (which I definitely think will have a butterfly effect, along with freeing Jevil maybe). The fight ending is more somber while the spare ending is a lot more funny. I highly doubt Deltarune will go full grimdark, even if there will be challenges and horrifying things to discover. I’m sure the ending will be satisfying and have some sort of hopeful tone.

Anyway, now for less big picture things. I’d LOVE for Monster Kid to have a bigger role in the later parts of the game, since they were basically Frisk’s only peer in the underground that they could count on not to kill them (yes Flowey I’m shading you), and I have a big soft spot for their friendship, despite it being rather minor. If the soul belongs to Frisk like I think it does, there could be some interesting interactions. Especially since Frisk is closer to their version of MK than Kris is to the one they know.

However, I highly doubt it. MK doesn’t have a portrait or their own soundbites. I do think part of the game will be Kris improving their relationships with the monsters though, and MK will be one of them. They seem to count on each other to be group partners when they need to, but they’re not close at all. MK looks like they have a tendency to put their foot in their mouth around Kris and doesn’t really get them. I’m thinking that’ll change depending on our choices whenever we get a chance to interact with them. Either that, or there will be a running cycle of MK accidentally annoying Kris, them realizing it and getting uncomfortable, awkward silence ensues, rinse and repeat. RIP school friends.

Noelle will definitely be a big character, since like many predicted, she’s coming to the Dark World. Rudy is almost certainly going to die and that will affect her character arc, along with her seemingly strained relationship with her mother (her being too scared to ask her mom for the house keys raises a red flag).

I think her and Susie will get off on the wrong foot, Noelle will come on too strong and Susie thinks she’s making fun of her and doesn’t actually want to be her friend, because why would she? As they have to interact more in the Dark World though, I’m sure eventually Susie will realize she was being sincere, they’ll become good friends, and even start dating toward the end. Unlike with Alphys and Undyne, I don’t think we’ll get to be a wingman. We might attempt it, but nothing comes from it and it’s just those two becoming a couple on their own to follow the “your choices don’t matter” theme.

Berdly kinda seems like he’s just going to be a jerk character with funny lines, but he does have a portrait and unique soundbites, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets an arc to himself. Maaaaybe he’ll join the party but who really knows. I’m applying this same “maybe” to all new school characters that have the portrait, because why bother giving those to characters with minor roles? Maybe so we can see what they look like better but eh.

Also this is more of a personal preference of mine but I don’t want more villains like the king... a big appeal to me with Undertale is how no one is completely evil and every major character gets their happy ending (except Asriel, Chara, post-Genocide run Frisk, and Gaster, more on that in a little) and is generally written to be flawed but likable and understandable in their own way. I can deal with the king because the fairytale/Alice in Wonderland vibes of the Dark World gives me the impression that it’s meant to have a black-and-white story to tell, where the heroes defeat the bad guy with very little depth, especially if it was created by Asriel, but I think as we explore the Dark World more, it will be more gray.

Timeline shenanigans

(Please also read the last paragraph in the last section for added context)

As I stated before, the universe of Deltarune comes across to me as an imperfectly created AU in a post-Undertale ending setting. This is a big, albeit maybe unlikely wish of mine, but I’m hoping that those who didn’t get an actual happy ending in Undertale will by the end of Deltarune. I think it’s significant how you’re told to play Deltarune only after finishing Undertale. Outside of it generally bring more enjoyable when you recognize the characters and get the references, I think it’s also important to understand the story.

Toby has stated that Deltarune “is a different world with different rules, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be no connections between [it and Undertale.]” If you got a happy ending in Undertale, Deltarune isn’t a sequel to that. It’s a sequel to the soulless-pacifist/genocide ending, or a sequel to a pacifist ending unrelated to our own. Undertale has already made a point to say there’s other AUs and timelines going on separate from ours, which what I think Toby means by our specific playthrough being “untouched” if we got the pacifist ending.

Also, about the 3 save files. They are, frankly, extremely confusing to me, but I still have some things to say. It’s interesting how Asriel’s drawers (and I think other places in the room) each contain different things between the different save files. I have to wonder if they’ll be implemented in the story somehow, and if the differences will increase as the story goes on, but I can’t see how Toby will do that without making multiple endings in the process? I wonder if we’ll have to use them in the same way Omega Flowey did (who had multiple save files according to the souls).

Chapter 2

As for chapter 2, like I said earlier, I highly, highly doubt Kris is going to kill any monsters, that just wouldn’t fit with what we know of them so far. I wouldn’t be surprised if they do attempt to attack the soul though. I’m leaning more towards them threatening it, doing a fakeout stab or something (“who’s in control NOW?”), and dumping the soul somewhere. Maybe they’d succeed in killing it but the soul would just reload, to the last save point even, back within Kris, which they’re probably aware of. There’d be no point in killing it when it’d just come back to life, so I think Kris is going to get rid of it in a nonviolent way.

I’m not sure if we’d go straight to what happens there though? I heard in Mother 3, a game Toby clearly likes, each chapter starts off with a different character’s perspective or something, which would be good for suspense in Deltarune ch 2. We’d probably play as Susie or Noelle at first, I’m thinking Susie in particular. We’d see what her home life is like and where she lives (big mysteries in the game and a point of concern considering her eating habits). She’d go to school, but Kris isn’t there because they’re sleeping in and didn’t feel like going. They’d probably get away with it by telling Toriel they’re sick because literally everyone talked about how being possessed was making them look ill.

Susie wanders around town for a bit after school, mustering up the courage to ask Kris if they still want to go back to the Dark World because what if skipping school was their subtle way of rejecting her friendship? She comes across the red soul, goes what the fuck that’s KRIS’ soul?? Is immediately concerned and brings it back to them. Kris looks like they don’t give a shit but is internally freaking out, makes up some excuse, looking entirely too shady so the Kris-is-evil theorists can have some fuel before being shot down later.

And then we’d switch to their perspective (or, I guess we get to play as the red soul) where they talk to the red soul, initially Kris is very aggressive but somehow we figure out a way to communicate with Kris and tell our side of the story. Apologies are made and Kris is somewhat mollified. Maybe this time Kris consents to being possessed but makes up some ground rules or the two work together to find a different vessel, maybe the golden flower in Asgore’s shop?

Also in the middle of all this there’s a flashback to how the soul ended up where Susie found it. I think this could all work with Noelle instead too. We don’t know what she does after school and she has known Kris for a long time, she might know what their real soul looks like (Like I said earlier, I do think Kris’ actual soul is red) or at least how human souls aren’t white and are right side up.

Summarization of the most important theories I guess

—Kris is being possessed by the red soul, which belongs to an teenage Frisk after a pacifist or soulless pacifist route.

—Considering the options for when you talk to Sans (“Great to see you again!” vs “Who the hell are you?”) I think one half of most options (probably the left side) is something Frisk would like to say while the other half is what Kris wants to say.

—The Deltarune Universe was created by both UT Asriel (more specifically post-pacifist Flowey) and Chara, with help from Gaster. However, he’s manipulating them for his own agenda which is why the world is more than a little weird. Asriel and Chara probably don’t know the other is working with Gaster as well.

—Chara is aware that Gaster is shady and doesn’t fully trust him, to the point they’re interfering and outright arguing with him, unlike UT Asriel, who might have his memories scrambled up.

—Kris is Chara’s self-insert for the Deltarune world, while Ralsei is Flowey. I’m not exactly sure if DR Asriel exists.

—Even if Gaster will be an antagonist he’s getting an redemption arc. He just wants to exist again, but he’s getting too desperate.

—Sans (who is his UT self as far as I’m concerned) is here to keep an eye on the anomaly (Frisk) and make sure they don’t abuse their time-travel powers again. UT Papyrus is also here, knows more than one might expect, possibly to befriend the anomaly to discourage them from doing anything questionable (although I doubt he thinks badly of the anomaly, whether it’s us or Frisk).

—We should have read the fine print before “accepting everything that will happen from now on” because doing that allowed Gaster to steal our determination and now it’s his turn on the timeline.

—Determination still exists, otherwise we couldn’t save and reload the timeline, it just hasn’t been named by Alphys like in UT.

—Gaster is the one who put Frisk’s soul in Kris, while Chara was trying to tell Frisk what their real name is, before getting cut off.

—I think every character is getting a happy ending it’ll just take a while to get there.

—Not exactly a theory, but I find it very interesting how the Angel in the Legend is seen as some sort of enemy to peace between the Lightners and Darkners, while also being revered as a god in Hometown’s religion. Not to mention how the Angel in the prophecy of the Delta Rune is either Frisk, Chara, or Asriel in Undertale.

Annnnnddd that’s it I guess? Congrats if you got to the end, and I appreciate people reading this even if you didn’t read the whole thing. I’m not tagging this because I don’t want people coming onto this post to say how Chara or Kris are definitely evil, but I don’t mind discussion and people telling me they disagree with any of my theories.

[descentale]

I got the art book! I looked through it and gushed over it. I mean... it’s not what I expected, since all it does is show concept art and the explanations behind it. Not much insight into the actual development of the game or its story, nor any in-depth explanations about... well, anything. It’s clear Toby isn’t terribly experienced in this sort of thing yet.

HOWEVER! I did manage to find some neato details about the characters that really caught my attention (AVOID THE REST OF THIS POST LIKE THE PLAGUE IF YOU DON’T WANT TO BE SPOILED ABOUT THE UNDERTALE ART BOOK!)

Flowey was partially inspired by a character called “Face” from a creepypasta by Cosbydaf about the Godzilla NES game. You guys should totally check it out, it’s super rad and image-heavy!

Toriel wasn’t always a Goat Mom. She was going to be an “overprotective humanoid goddess”. Pretty interesting how Toby has toyed with the idea of gods and goddesses even from the beginning.

Napstablook was originally a placeholder enemy. How much they’ve grown...

Papyrus was originally an irredeemable asshole. His personality was similar to Dedan from OFF, he wore a fedora, and his favorite show was “My Little Boney”. In other words, all the supposed makings of someone truly despicable. Personally, I’m glad Papyrus has changed entirely, but... come on, Toby, not all bronies are asshats!

Sans used to tell even more skeleton puns, and he ran a poker table at a casino (which no longer exists). What’s hilarious is that Toby’s notes about Sans clearly dictate that Sans never opens or closes his mouth. That everything is done through his teeth, from drinking ketchup to playing trombone. What’s especially hilarious is that he drew Sans not using lips on his trombone while Papyrus apparently WOULD use lips. Weird.

Undyne, for a long while during development of Undertale, had an interest in fashion and singing. Hmm... I think I have a headcanon coming on...

Alphys was originally going to be a boy! Toby grew to dislike that for some reason, so he slapped eyelashes on the design and BAM! Now Alphys is a girl. So glad for that, personally.

Mettaton was inspired by the robot from “Wallace and Gromit’s A Grand Day Out”. Which I’ve never seen and honestly need to check out. Mettaton was also going to be giant at some point. Also, his EX form was going to do some pretty fabulous shit during your battle with him.

Asgore was originally going to have brown hair. Toby actually forgets that his hair is blond now sometimes. Also, during the fight against him, he had more attacks with his trident (referred to as a spear in the book). This included raising it above his head and slamming it down with a roar, creating shockwaves. And... holy shit, Asgore looks really scary when he roars. It’s nightmare fuel to see such a sweet guy look so unholy. Another attack had Asgore spinning his spear around in a circle, which (I think?) you could only avoid by watching the spear’s color.

Asriel’s Angel of Death form was once more skeletal and rainbow-colored. Strangely enough, in both that form and in Omega Flowey’s design, there appears to be evidence of a Pink Soul. Hmm...

There’s also a ton of info on other characters I won’t get into. But anyway... I’m going to give everything I’ve found a serious think, and then come up with ideas I might implement into Descentale. I’m already thinking Undyne secretly loves singing and has an eye for fashion, though she won’t admit it to anyone because she has a certain reputation.

AHEM. Anyway. Toodles for now, and I’ll write more in the morning!

- The Author