#it's so interesting also because caduceus has no problems admitting ignorance of like basically anything else

[utilitycaster]

what moment are you talking about? I must have missed it

Hi anon,

I’m referring to Caduceus’s response to Caleb showing them the rooms, around 2:16:00-ish in Twitch VOD and how he doesn’t think Caleb is using them correctly.

I’m about to talk a lot below as I am wont to do because the mood here is pretty much always Time for My Opinion but in short, Caduceus, while insightful, often has very specific ideas of the correct way to deal with problems, and often they’re understandable from his own experiences, upbringing, and philosophy, but they’re not actually good for the person he’s talking to, and also he has a dangerous combination of insight and a disinclination towards probing further, even when that would be beneficial (such as here; I’m no expert on trauma but I am generally aware that most modern therapies involve some degree of exposure to elements of said trauma, in that it’s difficult to truly avoid everything that might potentially be a trigger and so it’s crucial to develop lifelong healthy coping mechanisms and ways to process. We also know as viewers, though Caduceus doesn’t necessarily, that Caleb’s original goal was to undo the past; having a safe place he controls to just exist in past settings and think of both the good and bad seems positive to me).

So this seemed particularly egregious - telling someone who you know is traumatized that they’re doing it wrong without getting the full picture - but it’s not a new pattern of behavior. I think, however, it might be the first time the whole party saw it and the first time it’s been turned full force on Caleb, which is why I wonder what will happen there.

(here ends the initial answer; below is a long and slightly low-on-sleep ramble about this being an ongoing theme with Caduceus).

Okay so Caduceus would in fact make a terrible therapist and not even because he answers a lot of questions in vague portentous analogies (I love me a vague portentous analogy), or because cast references to Freud aside this is a world that doesn’t have the same language about mental illness and trauma.

When Caduceus gets it right he really gets it right, but he’s gotten it really wrong with some frequency. He is a man of limited and specific experiences and often carries over those experiences into areas where they no longer apply. I should note: I love this as a character choice. It’s one Taliesin has arguably made with all of his major characters, in some form. I think it stands out for Caduceus so much specifically because he is mechanically very wise and incredibly insightful and because he has such limited experience, and because his limited experience includes a lot of advice-giving and ministering but under highly specific circumstances that no longer are his entire world.

Insight is about knowing what a person intends or is feeling, but it does not equal knowing what to say to them. Insight doesn’t erase the very human or I guess in this case sentient being tendency to overlay one’s own biases. In fact, being very insightful can worsen that, since someone who isn’t good at reading people but is aware of that fact will stop and listen to the person they’re talking to instead of relying on the insight over the literal words someone is saying (insert my philosophy here; yeah people lie and deflect, but also there is a reason they are lying and deflecting and often playing along while taking precautions to care for them in a way they will receive it is more effective than ignoring them). When I say Fjord, Yasha, and to an extent Veth are often the best listeners in the party I’m not joking: all of them have mediocre wisdom at best, but that means they tend to ask questions and keep a relatively open mind. I don’t think that most of the Nein really get what Caleb’s doing with these rooms, and that’s fine! But I think most of the others at least realized that they don’t have the full picture, or that this wasn’t the time to bring it up.

Ultimately, Caduceus has experience with three broad groups of people: the recently bereft (which has some applications towards people currently in crisis), run-of-the-mill criminals, and family. When experiences can’t be extrapolated from those groups, he often struggles. We saw this with Trent; I said at the time and I still strongly maintain that his speech probably did little or nothing to Trent. Trent probably went to bed that night thinking “Ha! That bumpkin firbolg called me, a high-level wizard, a fool!” and forgot it by morning. Which doesn’t make the speech useless; I think even if it didn’t land the mere act of someone being wholly unimpressed by Trent is extremely valuable for Astrid and Eodwulf - and Caleb, for that matter - to see. But I don’t think it was a mic drop moment.

Caduceus has rigid ideas of the correct way to be, and it’s not a bad ideal but it’s a narrow one. He tends to value family and respect and responsibility, and he has an eye on the big picture and consequences in a way many people do not, and those are great. Within his scope of experience he’s often good - Gustav and The Gentleman, for example, are both solidly in the “Shady Creek Run types” category and Caduceus was able to speak with them very effectively. But outside of that and not only does he not get it, but he often is unwilling to hear it because he already has what he believes to be the right answer.

In a way, Caduceus is often good at telling people they are enough and that they will be okay and get through this, which is exactly what most mourners need to hear, but sometimes you need to hear “I don’t get what you’re doing but I’m here if you need me,” and sometimes you even need to hear “that was fucking stupid but I still love you” (note: Caleb falls into the former in this scenario). He’s got a good strategy for the life he lived for upwards of 80 years but he needs to change if he’s going to continue to be a person who is good at advising, and he really struggles with that! As said, it’s a great character choice even as I’m screaming “pretty sure this is the wrong way to deal with someone’s trauma!” because it’s so indicative of what Caduceus himself is going through.

I’m not asking for a judgement-free zone - lord knows anywhere I exist will not be one - but like, in a nod to a whole other tangent about religion I cut out because this is ridiculously long already, Caduceus could stand to internalize “who is wise? One who learns from everyone.” Or even just “know what you don’t know.”