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sweetescapeartist · 2 years ago

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My response to this reply ended up being too long, so I decided to reply in a post.

The original post I made.

This is a response on that post from @putterpen.

I HAVE to address this. I've seen people say similar phrases many times before & there is literally no proof of these statements. Statements such as these originate from misinformation spread throughout the DB fandom. How so? I will break it down.

Disclaimer; This ain't to put anybody on blast or meant to start some sort of conflict. This is solely to address & correct innacurate statements that I've seen many ppl in the DB fandom repeat over and over.

So, others who may read this, do not attack or insult putterpen. And if you read this, putterpen, you can take this however you like, but my intent is made clear by how I speak. This is simply a discussion for me.

TLDR; (when I say this is a long post, I mean it.)

The DB fandom's ignorance & their false sense of masculinity is what causes many to believe that being domesticated is a bad thing when it's actually positive.

There is zero proof that Tien trains constantly or even trains a lot like Goku & Vegeta do. In fact, the opposite is proven true.

Krillin does train, and he has better training partners than Tien does in terms of power which allows for Krillin to be stronger.

The notion that Krillin recieves "Toriyama handjobs" is false & is proven so by the series. Tien has "Toriyama handjobs" that nobody brings up. But, I will.

Many believe misinformation because it is repeated over and over. And when a lie is repeated enough, people will eventually believe a lie as truth.

#1.) KRILLIN DOESN'T TRAIN?

So, Krillin stopped fighting after Cell was defeated during the 7 years of peace. Yes? And? Do folks say the same for Vegeta? Vegeta straight up said he wouldn't fight anymore!

Although he said he wouldn't fight anymore, Vegeta still trained. Do people believe that Krillin quit training all together when he's been practicing martial arts since he was 3 to 4 years old at a monastery? Krillin definitely slowed down, but he never stopped completely in DBZ. He may have skipped a few days, a few weeks, or even a few months, but there was indeed some form of light training as the series itself implies such. Training is part of his life, so some form of training is bound to happen.

As a former athlete, I know this to be true. I trained since I was about 3 or 4, then when I was a bit older I began doing 1,000 jump ropes almost every day for many years amongst other training routines. Then when I recieved an injury while competing at a high level, it got me very depressed. Despite that, 9 YEARS LATER, I still do light training because training is a part of my life. And I'm drawn to work that consists of manual labor because my body requires that after training most of my life. I've also spoken with former athletes & former martial artists (ones who could have gone pro and former pros) who still do a bit of training after they retired because training is just part of who they are. If this is the case in the real world (& it is), this is also the case in DB for characters like Krillin, Yamcha, & Tien who are far beyond the professional martial artist level.

Also, there were 7 YEARS OF PEACE after the Cell Saga, then 4 years of peace after the Buu Saga. How can you be a fighter if there are no battles to fight? The only time that Krillin actually "quit" martial arts was for about half a year in DBS before Freeza returned and later he realized he should had never "quit." And even during that time when Krillin "quit" martial arts, he still stayed active by being an elite police officer and using his martial arts skill to stop crime. So even then, Krillin never truly quit training all together.

In DBS, Krillin had an arc where he wondered if he made the right choice to stop fighting. He had conflict within himself for years. And when he decided to give up martial arts after the Battle of Gods Saga, Freeza returned & he put his gi on again without hesitation to fight the man responsible for a lot of his PTSD. A few months afterward Freeza's defeat, Krillin ended up letting his gaurd down while trying to appear as a normal police officer & got grazed by a bullet. This is when he regained his fighting spirit and came back full force and began enjoying martial arts again.

Also Krillin & the other humans martial artists use martial arts to better themselves just as Roshi had explained Budō to Krillin & Goku many years ago. It betters them physically, mentally, and spiritually. Martial arts is integral to their lives for this reason.

Martial arts has been something that these characters have practiced their entire life. They don't just stop completely. They do little bits of training here and there (other than Gohan who doesn't really like training nor fighting, but is just naturally gifted when it comes to power). Interviews with Toriyama & the series itself support that the human Z Fighters never fully quit martial arts. The 3 strongest humans even do work that requires them to use some of their martial arts know-how;

Krillin - He does police work to stop dangerous criminals & it helped keep him active and aware (until he fell into depression again which made him lower his gaurd and got himself slightly injured).

Tenshinhan - He does farming & teaching a martial arts school along with Chaozu.

Yamcha - He does freelance bodyguard work. Being a bodyguard means that he has to be alert and fight when necessary which helps keep his senses sharp.

So, this talking point that Krillin doesn't train is based in lies & misinformation because he just slowed down like the other fighters did. And this lie is usually something repeated to make Tien appear stronger than Krillin. It's often because people just think Tien looks cooler because he is taller and more muscular. But, I fact check, and everything says & shows that Krillin is the strongest Earthling. People can disagree all they want, but they are behaving like Vegeta when he was evil; hyping himself up & believing his own power fantasy as he denies reality that is right in front of him.

Not to mention that in DBS, Krillin begins training seriously again. Krillin also trains regularly on his own, regularly trains with 18, & occasionally trains with Goku. They all benefit from the training in different ways.

Krillin gets to train with stronger partners. This results in his increased strength and further polishes his skills as well as his on the fly strategies.

18 gets to train with a more skillful & strategic partner which helps her do better against tricky opponents & use her new knowledge to outsmart opponents.

Goku gets to train with a nearly equally skillful and more strategic partner. We even see Goku use Krillin's strategy to almost eliminate Jiren which made Jiren fight more seriously.

And its important to note that in Dragon Ball, having a training partner reaps better results than training solo. And having a stronger training partner reaps even better results.

FROM THE 23RD TENKAICHI BUDOKAI THROUGH THE SAIAYAN SAGA, Krillin had been gradually closing the gap between Tien and himself and finally surpassed him during the Freeza Saga (yes, Krillin had his latent potential unlocked, but Tien had the longest training with King Kai, so both got something special). And Krillin's solo training during the Cell Saga reaped more benefits than Tien's training with Chaozu. Why? The series itself explains so.

A weaker training partner can delay power growth as shown with Goku and Gohan. Same goes for Chaozu. And neither of the two were expertly skillful in martial arts. Gohan had his great latent power while Chaozu had psychic powers they each relied on more than anything else. (Krillin even defeats Gohan in a sparring match in DBS due to him being more skillful and strategic than Gohan.)

DURING THE CELL SAGA, Tien may have looked physically stronger than Krillin just as SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta looked physically stronger than Mastsred SSJ Goku, but Goku & Krillin were both stronger due to training their spirit/ki over their physical. Better control of your ki is how you get stronger in Dragon Ball.

Both Goku & Krillin know this due to their tutelage under the Turtle School and the principles imbedded in them. Meanwhile, Tien has different training principles imbedded in him from the Crane Hermit's flawed teachings. And then we have Vegeta. Vegeta has a flawed Saiyan mindset of only thinking about physical strength when it comes to training. Deeper understanding of ki is how a smaller, skinnier, or less agressive looking characters can surpass a stronger looking character. (This is also why SSJ2 Goku was far stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta and why Vegeta had to use a Majin magic boost to get on a similar level to SSJ2 Goku.)

Then, DURING THE BUU SAGA in preparation for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, Krillin trains on his own & with 18 who is a cyborg capable of taking down Super Saiyans, to get back in tip top shape plus some. Who did Tien train with? He either trained alone or trained with Chaozu. Chaozu is strong by normal human standards, but he is no where as strong as 18. And Chaozu isn't even near Tien's strength. Due to Tien isolating himself, he doesn't have opportunities to train with people stronger than himself. He would rather train alone if with a training parter was not as strong or skillful as himself. (Not to mention that Tien had taken training less serious at this point.)

Bottom line, Krillin did train. He just trained less than before for a while. But once he started training seriously again, he got even stronger. Not to mention that Krillin opened himself for opportunity to train with Goku thanks to 18 encouraging him to do so for his physical & mental health.

#2.) KRILLIN IS ALMOST FULLY DOMESTICATED?

First of all... what does that mean to be domesticated in the context of family? 🤔

It's not a bad thing to be domesticated. NOT AT ALL. In fact, Krillin being "almost fully domesticated" means that Krillin is a spectacular husband and father! Which means that Krillin takes care of his family like a responsible man does, and he will fight for them & die for them at the drop of a dime.

The DB fandom hypocritically use the term "domesticated" as an insult for some characters, while using "domesticated" as a compliment for characters they like more. Example being that it's an insult for Krillin to be domesticated, but the fans praise Vegeta being "domesticated" by Bulma when in reality credit should actually go to Future Trunks for being the reason Vegeta became slightly "domesticated." And even then, by definition, Vegeta isn't domesticated because he isn't fond of home life or good at home tasks because he refuses to do them. He only became slightly fond of it after the Buu Saga.

This domesticated talking point appears to originate from the alpha and beta type of thinking (I may be wrong with the origin, so I am open to correction). That kind of thinking is actually idiotic and is used to market a lie to ignorant and easily manipulated people. Because most people who call themselves "alpha" are actually betas in disguise. A real alpha doesn't have to parade it around. They don't care if anyone knows they are an alpha. Case in point, many Vegeta fans foolishly believe that he was an alpha in DBZ, but everything he did was actually extremely beta. A real alpha takes care of his pack (his family) and looks out for others. Vegeta didn't start doing that until the end of the Buu Saga & in DBS. And he's barely done so in DBS.

REAL ALPHAS ARE DOMESTICATED. Betas aren't domesticated, & they will either be a pushover or overcompensate. Also, betas will try to mimic an alpha. Like how Vegeta got a family to see if he could get stronger like Goku. Or these fake alphas will fabricate what they believe is an aplha. Like how Vegeta sold his soul for more power because he believed that doing so would put him back on top. Luckily for Vegeta, the love he developed for his family over many years is an aplha trait that he barely managed to hang on to. But, he almost threw it away because he inaccurately viewed love as weakness.

#3.) TIEN TRAINS CONSTANTLY?

He trains constantly? Where is it said that Tien trains constantly??? I've searched everywhere & only found that Goku, Vegeta, & Piccolo are said to train all the time. This is something the fandom fabricated to give false reason as for why Tien is stronger than Krillin. There is no proof at all that Tien constantly trains. However, there is actually proof that Tien DOES NOT train all the time.

For the long & in-depth answer, read this link to a post I made.

For the shorter, answer...

After the Cell Games & after Goku remained dead, everyone became depressed, especially the human characters. There were 7 years of peace. Almost everyone retired since there was no threat for so long. Heck, Tien even said that they won't see him again. He had lost his fighting spirit. He was depressed, yet I don't see Tien fans nor anyone bring this up. It's something they seem to overlook.

Not to mention that throughout the Cell Saga, Tien kept expressing how helpless and useless he felt & had mostly given up. And the scene that fans love so much where Tien risked his life to hold back Cell for a few moments? That wouldn't had happened if Krillin didn't give him hope by not giving up on saving the world. Tien wasn't doing good mentally or emotionally.

The guy was depressed. And Goku dying made it worse. But instead of expressing it vocally, he isolates himself for 7 years.

And Tien meant what he said about them not seeing him again. Where was Tien during most of the Buu Saga that took place over 3 days? Why wasn't he present for most of it? Because he lost his fighting spirit. Only after he dodged an attack that killed almost all of mankind except for a few, Tien decided to show up later after a few more battles to help & saved Dende from a small attack from Super Buu. Not only did Tien avoid the fight as much as possible when he could sense what was going on. He could also hear Babidi in his head like everyone else could & see what was going on if he closed his eyes. Yet, Tien deliberately chose to avoid the battle as much as he could until he was one of the last survivors. Tien truly DID NOT want to fight anymore. He was going to leave the fighting to the others until he had no choice.

And for all we know, Tien may have started training seriously after he saw Buu through Babidi's magic. (Not saying Tien didn't train at all until then. I'm saying he increased the intensity of his training after finding out about Majin Buu so he could try to help since he wasn't prepared for the 7 years of peace to be ended in such a frightening way.)

And even when Tien is faced with a serious attack from Buu, Tien calls himself useless again. Signs of depression that is ignored by the fandom.

And I hope nobody brings up Buu calling Tien a legendary fighter. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Krillin. Buu was just saying Tien is an expert fighter (as non Viz translations state & carry the similar meaning). In reality, Buu was saying that Tien was like an ant compared to Buu's own power. With context, it was a backhanded compliment from Buu. (Buu was saying Gohan was like an ant too since Buu became stronger than him.)

This fearless warrior who people claim constantly trains actually refused to train in the RoSaT & refused to fight for days when the Earth was in danger. Can that be explained? No, it cannot. Not if you believe Tien trains all the time and is a fighter like a Saiyan.

In reality, Tien DOES NOT train all the time. Tien is revealed to be a farmer in a Toriyama interview & the series reveals such as well (if statements in interviews are supported by & match up with the series, they are legit). Farming keeps Tien in shape, but its nothing serious. Just farming and light to moderate training.

And Tien has a newly formed school. This is Tien's therapy & has helped him feel useful. He has been regaining his fighting spirit back more and more in DBS by being around his friends more & teaching others at his school so that they can help defend the world if needed in the future. This is an important story arc and character development for Tien (& Chaozu) that is overlooked. Even many Tien fans overlook this for the sake of wanting Tien to be a "badass" and are upset he isn't the strongest human. Tien is a stoic character that is bettering the world in his own way. A way that is also healing his mental state. That's an inspiring story especially when you know his origins, but I guess many don't think its good enough. I guess they want him to be more selfish and behave like a human Vegeta.

Also, Tien slowly began to come out of his depression when we see him at Bulma's birthday party in Battle of Gods. We dont see him all the time because he is a loner, but we do see him every now and again just hanging out with his friends. Toriyama also says in an interview that Yamcha visits Tien from time to time too. Friendly visits like that no doubt helps Tien get out of his depression. (I'm sure that helps Yamcha get out of his depression too.) And even though Tien doesn't want a romantic relationship, Toriyama also stated that Launch drops by to visit him every now and then too. Which I'm sure her company helped Tien with his depression as well.

#4.) TORIYAMA HANDJOBS?

This is something I hear when ppl want to accuse another character of receiving unfair treatment. They say another character gets something good while their character gets less. Sometimes its true, but not in this instance. Some examples...

VEGETA & GOKU:

Fans claim Goku gets the "Toriyama handjob" because of how strong he is and say that he had his potential unlocked as a kid. They say its unfair to Vegeta, but they ignore the fact that Vegeta is a natural born prodigy amongst Saiyans.

But, let's ask some questions...

Is it a "Toriyama handjob" that Vegeta is a Saiyan prodigy that even surpassed his father when he was still a child?

Is it a "Toriyama handjob" that Vegeta got to be resurrected when he was evil and had recently killed Namekian children and old men?

Is it a "Toriyama handjob" that Vegeta had his potential drawn out beyond his normal means through Babidi's magic? That's conveniently forgotten by fans.

It it a "Toriyama handjob" that Vegeta was brought back to life in the Buu Saga because Dende worded the wish differently than what Vegeta told him?

Was it a "Toriyama handjob" that SSJ2 Vegeta got so angry when Beerus slapped Bulma that he somehow surpassed SSJ3 Goku?

Was it a "Toriyama handjob" that Vegeta got to train with Whis for 6 months before Goku?

Was it a "Toriyama handjob" when Toriyama wrote for Vegeta to stay at Capsule Corp. and live a luxurious life without having to do a single thing other than use Bulma's technology to do extreme training all the time?

Vegeta gets more "Toriyama handjobs" than Goku does, but many in the fandom pretend it doesn't happen so they can play victim and garner sympathy from others.

TIEN & KRILLIN:

Tien was a natural born prodigy who has natural abilities that others don't have. And he had the advantage of being taught to fly while Krillin was the only Z Fighter who had to teach himself how to do so. Ppl claim that Krillin having his potential unlocked by the Namekian Grand Elder was a "Toriyama handjob." But that power up is soley his own latent power, nothing more. Meanwhile, Tien got to train at King Kai's planet nearly twice as long as Goku did.

So, let's ask some more questions...

Is Tien training at King Kai's for a year a "Toriyama handjob?" A place where King Kai said to Goku that 158 days with him is like a few thousand years of training on Earth. Tien stayed there twice as long & had a training partner. (King Kai may have been exaggerating a bit, but the training on his planet is definitely beyond the highest training on Earth currently was.)

Is Tien winning a Tenkaichi Budokai a "Toriyama handjob" since Krillin never won a tournament?

Is Tien creating a powerful Kamehameha his first time using the technique a "Toriyama handjob?" Tien even calls the Kamehameha an elementary technique.

Is Tien learning the Mafuba on his own in half a day after seeing it once a "Toriyama handjob" when it took Goku 1 full day in DBS after being taught by Roshi?

Is Tien using the Tri Beam to stall Cell despite being many times weaker a "Toriyama handjob?"

Is Tien lasting longer in the Tournament of Power than Krillin did a "Toriyama handjob?" He also did a self-sacrifice instead of being caught off guard like Krillin was. (Anime version treated Tien better than the manga version.)

When ppl claim Krillin gets "Toriyama handjobs" they conveniently overlook the many "Toriyama handjobs" that Tien has received.

CONCLUSION

There is too much misinformation in the fandom that is believed without anyone checking to see if its true or false.

Being domesticated is good & true alphas are domesticated.

Krillin had did light training before getting back to training seriously.

Tien doesn't train all the time.

Krillin & Yamcha were still muscular in the Buu Saga and they slowed down a lot on their training. Tien isn't as buff as he was in the Cell Saga, but he is still physically fit in the Buu Saga despite training less because farming is a type of exercise & kept him in shape.

Tien has had plenty of "Toriyama handjobs."

If what Toriyama says in interviews matches up with what is shown in the series, those statements are accurate. And his statements are reinforced by the series, so these particular statements should not be dismissed.

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