#it wasn't/isn't always one-sided & Aziraphale does put work into it

[skyborneveggie]

I wanna talk about the Job episode, how Crowley is the one who is saying "We are not on the same side, I'm on my own side & mine alone" and Aziraphale is the one who is pushing for Crowley to let him in & for them to work together.

[trashworldblog]

METATRON IS SUCH A MASTER MANIPULATOR MOTHERFUCKER AND I HATE HIM SO MUCH OMYGOD HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING

(written all in one go after rewatching the finale, apologies for mistakes)

1) he went in person, although he SAID this wasnt that big of a deal, i seems like it definitely fucking was. not only does it make him seem more "just like you!" and likeable, he can also do things like bring aziraphale coffee to warm him up. (coffee that has almond extract in it, btw. that could be used as a threat of eventual calamity, or simply that god is watching. which also could be a threat that if angel doesn't take this offer, he could fall)

2) he resolved a complication in aziraphale's favor. he swooped right in with perfect timing in order to do so. it definitely was no coincidence that the second the angels started threatening extreme sanctions, the megatron stepped in and put them in their place. for aziraphale's entire existence, it seems like those angels have been making angel's life painful, and shutting them up so quickly must seem like a godsend (lmao) to him.

3) taking aziraphale away from crowley (basically isolating him) to chat about promoting him. ok, to be fair, this a bit of a stretch. but i think it still plays a role! after fixing up that whole mess and offering angel a latte, he asks to speak in private. crowley easily lets them go, likely because of the previous points, maybe some devine intervention, and metatron gets aziraphale alone. he talks about it like its a promotion (i thought aziraphale was retired?) and all the perks he will have. he can work with crowley! as an angel! together! (note how he can seem to only work with crowley AFTER he becomes an angel again. something the metatron already expects crowley to refuse). it seems like a perfect deal after everything they just went through.

4) he brings him back to crowley to "break the good news" knowing that crowley will hate the news, and they will end up fighting about it. he even says so after he picks angel back up (but we'll get to that in a bit). he must know quite a bit about the two of them, and how they have major troubles communicating with each other. he knows he's buttered up aziraphale enough to make him think this is a perfect ending for them, and he knows that after everything crowley's experienced (and completely losing the rose colored glasses that heaven seems to give to all the angels) they will definitely disagree about the whole offer, AND they wont be able to talk about WHY its a terrible offer for both of them. they also will struggle to see things from the other's perspective and will blow up into a big miscommunication mess.

5) after that major rejection (and the shock that comes with a rejection as big as that one) megatron sweeps on back, giving aziraphale no time to process what crowley was saying or why he was saying it, and takes him off to heaven with no lose ends at all. "dont worry about a thing! muirel will look after the bookshop. anything else you need? no? well, on our way!" at this point, the metatron easily looks like a night in shining armor for aziraphale. here to stop those mean angels from destroying him, accepting his dear friend crowley, hammering a wedge between the two of them, and coming back to save his day and take him to heaven to his new job.

6) he very subtly shits on crowley. it can't be major, yet, but a big part of manipulating someone is to isolate them, often by talking about how terrible they are. he starts doing this by saying "well he was always the type to go his own way" its subtle enough to fly under the radar, but it tells aziraphale : well, crowley is always on his own. he isn't with heaven, he isnt with hell. He's on his own side. and he likes to do things just to oppose and upset others! you couldn't possibly be with him. you just had a huge disagreement! how often does that happen between you two?

7) i wasn't sure where to put this one, but this all happens so fast. aziraphale doesn't have much time to think, weigh his options, and less time to talk to crowley about it. metatron swoops in, fixes the issue, grabs angel, explains everything, and picks him up as soon as crowley leaves. angel has no time to recover from *waves vaugely at love confession and angry kiss* all he can do is look around helplessly, struggle to put on a brave face, and accept that this is whats happening now.

okay great. theres 7 reasons the metatron is a big manipulating bitch but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

when we pick back up with the boys aziraphale is gonna be either chugging the coolaid (please neil if this happens i will cry again) Or angel will be seeing through what is being played to him (demonic intervention? tbh this is less likely but it makes me less sad so i want to include it). um so expect the metatron and other angelic things to be huge manipulating bastards, and for aziraphale and crowley to learn the hard way why communicating properly is so important with your partner.

i think the second coming is a big thing (idk just a guess lol) and the metatron needs a good leader (that he can manipulate quite a bit). maybe he's planning something, maybe this is just how heaven does things.

either way, im excited to hear more next season. keep rewatching s2 for renewal, support the wga and sag aftra in the strike, i hope it ends soon with payment and benefits going to the amazingly talented writers and actors that made this show possible. i know a lot of people are hoping the next season is done quickly, but i just want a good third season, and that takes time and effort. thank you, neil, for this amazing story. good luck making s3! <3

[orionchildofhades]

i wonder how crowley really feels about Heaven. how Aziraphale really feels about it too.

This swason we learned much more about the Fall and who, or rather, how Crowley was before before. Several characters, be it demons or angels, recognize him from before. And we see him, creating the sky, his lovely nebulas, matter and gravity and light. Whoever he was, his name and role, it's not important. What matters is that Crowley used to be happy. He laughed and squealed and jumped around in excitment, delighted by his creation. He held a deep love for the univserse and the things around him. During the battle he was excited, acting like a kid alongside the other angels who fought by Satan's side before they lost and fell. Crowley was curious and wanted to know things, he questionned God not for any belief that God was wrong, or even, or anything, just because he thought they could do better. And yet he fell. After all he did, and all the love he held in their chest, he fell. She says it multiple time, he hang out with the wrong people, he didn't mean to fall. Metraton says that he always asked too many questions. And Crowley fell and was condemned to an eternity of sorrows, away from the sky he loved so much. He never wished to be bad or wicked. He always used it as an excuse to do what he wanted. No wonder he told Aziraphale that he understood better than him what it meant to be brought back to Heaven. It had abandonned him when he simply wanted to keep his creation safe*

Aziraphale on the other end, doesn't seem at first glance to understand what Heaven can do. He always says he is an angel, he does good, he is on God's side. Yet, he was the one who saw it all. He was the one who met angel Crowley and worried for this pearl of care and love. He was afraid, he already knew not to ask too many question. And he watched as this angel fell to be a demon, and rose back to earth to work there. He saw the kind and happy angel become this demon who said to be different, not the same person he was before. And yes, Crowley changed but at the end, whether he realises it or not, his nature seems the same. And Aziraphale could saw it too. Because even as a demon, Crowley keeps loving and caring. He hides it better because he understand that people, not just Hell but Heaven too, don't like this. He helps Jobs' children even if he is tasked to kill them. He lies and put everything on fire, but he helps. He threatens and scares Wee Morag's friend to assure she will flee the dangerous life of a grave-digger. Crowley lies and does 'terrible' thing in the eyes of heaven to make sure he can help people. And Aziraphale had to watch this, his fear and discomfort in front of Heaven growing. Because he wasn't punished, was he? For lying. Isn't God supposed to be all knowing? Crowley fell for caring and Aziraphale was kept because he understood that Heaven was to be feared. He was a loyal soldier not by belief but because it scared him too much to do otherwise.

*I'd like to note that Crowley stays someone important wherever he is. In Heaven or Hell, he is known, mainly respected, he has access to information, the boss know him, he is the one who works on earth, who is sent to tempt eve and adam for the apple, who gets his hands on the litteral antichrist and has to keeps an eye on him, he created the sky and the universe and is the serpent in the garden of eden. and yet there is not a hint of greed or desire for glory in his dementor. he doesn't want to be a duke of hell, to be promoted of whatever. he wants to chill and live his life and love his world and his angel with whom he worked since the beginning of time

[actual-changeling]

I am going to approach this from the most objective place possible, even though the post initially triggered me in a way I did not expect.

Expecting Crowley to say "I do not want to be an angel again" is demanding something that would not only be wildly out of character, but also ignores the fact that he has already said so.

For six thousand years, Crowley has been talking to Aziraphale about heaven, hell, and what all of it means to him, and one thing that has popped up again and again since Job are variations of "the angel you knew isn't me".

Those phrases mean a number of different things

Crowley draws a hard line and differentiates between who he was as an angel and who he is now

he considers that angel to be gone/dead—it no longer exists and it cannot exist again

he is not an angel, there is nothing angelic about him, and he repeatedly expresses that he is perfectly fine with that; ti is Aziraphale who isn't

who he was before is not a state he can ever return to, nor does he want to

This next section is going to be phrased as plainly and respectfully as I possibly can.

Because there is danger in Heaven. Crowley knows. All the demons do.

No, there is no danger in heaven. Heaven IS the danger. Heaven will always be the danger, and being an angel was part of that danger.

You cannot and should not separate heaven and Crowley's trauma from angel-hood, and attempting to do so is not only disrespectful towards Crowley as a character, but also carries ableist ideas.

The Starmaker was Crowley's Before. They were brought into existence without trauma, and for a while, they were allowed to live without experiencing any.

When they began to question the status quo, disobeying heaven & God, they also became exposed to violence and rejection, which ultimately led to their Fall. That Fall is not an isolated traumatic incidence, it is one major traumatic event surrounded by endless smaller ones, which continued to amass once he was in hell.

All of that—the pain, being rejected by God, the Fall—happened to the Starmaker and erased them from existence. Being an angel, to Crowley, is intrinsically linked to pain, because THAT is who most of it happened to—angel!Crowley, the Starmaker, not the Crowley that we know now.

Our Crowley is what came after. Our Crowley has clawed his way back from most of that, he is a fundamentally different person and tells Aziraphale so over and over and over.

Our Crowley lived, and a part of healing from trauma like that is grief. So much primal, inescapable grief that unless you have gone through it, you will never understand it. That Starmaker, that child, was hurt so very badly it broke them, and fuck, yeah, he wishes he could be that Starmaker and live without all of that ever happening to him, but it did. It did happen. There is no way of ever getting that life back, and he does not WANT it back, because that child was happy, yes, but it was also helpless.

Heaven would not suddenly change, heaven will never change, because it is running and working the way it is supposed to. That abuse would happen no matter what, and as an angel, he was helpless, he was stuck in a horribly abusive household, and that happiness that he had, was a temporary illusion.

I really do not know how to put this into words because it is just something you understand once you've gone through it. The jealousy towards that child, the hatred towards the people that hurt you but also yourself, the grief you are left with. By saying he would want to return to that, you are trivializing and invalidating all of that, all of the abuse and violence. You are making it seem as if instead of it being an active choice on heaven's side, the abuse just. happened to happen. That it wasn't inextricably linked to his identity as an angel, because all of that trauma was inflicted on him BECAUSE he was an angel. Not despite it, not in ignorance of it.

Because of it. Because he was an angel. Because he was the Starmaker. He was hurt for being who he was, so no, he would rather die than ever even consider returning to being that person, let alone dream about it. Nightmares, maybe, but that is all.

It was inflicted on him with a reason. That child was intentionally destroyed and I can guarantee you that no one would ever willingly return to being someone that can be destroyed like that.

Aziraphale saw all of that abuse. He SAW angels getting hurt, killed, burned, destroyed. He saw all of that, he heard Crowley say over and over that he died up there, that he will never return and would never want to either, that heaven will not change because it is cruel the way it's supposed to be.

Aziraphale CHOOSES to ignore all of that. He chooses to not listen to Crowley, he actively refuses to look at reality and accept it for what it is, and that is Aziraphale's fault.

He had two options:

a) listen to Crowley and accept reality no matter how uncomfortable

b) ignore it and drown himself in denial and fantasy.

He CHOSE option b. He could have chosen the first one, but he didn't, and he alone is to blame for that.

Assuming Crowley would want to be an angel again is doing what I describe above: invalidating and trivializing the abuse he endured.

Aziraphale looked Crowley straight in the face and said "I want you to be a person that can be destroyed like that and then return to the place that inflicted that destruction". He said it was going to be "even nicer". He said "who you are right now is bad, and I do not want you like this".

(side note: I am not saying that Aziraphale meant for it to be read that way, but it is exactly what it conveyed to Crowley, and that is the only thing that matters here.)

None of this was ever about misunderstandings or miscommunication, it always came down to a fundamental difference in belief—or rather, Aziraphale clinging to his idealized, denial version of reality.

This got a lot longer than I planned, but it is such an important point to understand, and explaining something I was forced to inherently carry with me is difficult.

I'm glad that there are many people that won't understand this, but that only makes it even more important to listen to those that do get it, because seemingly innocent statements can easily contain very hurtful sentiments.

The thing is, Crowley never says he doesn't want to be an angel again.

When Aziraphale is getting really excited about the prospect of restoring Crowley to full angelic status--"we're having a ball," "perhaps you can tell me while we dance" levels of excited--Crowley isn't over there saying, "How dare you," or "I don't want to be an angel again," or "You don't know me at all," which are all reactions we'd expect... If that's the way he felt.

What he says is, "Heaven is toxic."

Because being an angel again isn't what's holding him back. All Crowley's said for years is, I go along with Hell as far as I can, and I didn't mean to fall, I sauntered vaguely downwards, I was bored at lunch one day, I only ever asked questions, I'm unforgivable. That's all he's said, and that's all Aziraphale has heard, words of regret. And maybe they even talked about it. Maybe they even talked about the parts of Heaven that Crowley misses, in a perfect universe, maybe we could have still been angels together, doing good, isn't it a nice thing to dream, isn't it a nice fantasy?

But the thing that Crowley knows that Aziraphale doesn’t is that this particular fantasy can't come true. You can't make it a reality. But Aziraphale, see, that's where he lives, in the fantasy. Like the cotillion ball, right? He manipulates the humans and ignores the danger to play out his fantasy, and Crowley can only see it going that way in Heaven too: Aziraphale turning a blind eye in favor of delusional happiness while Crowley trails behind him, terrified, hissing that there's danger lurking all around.

Because there is danger in Heaven. Crowley knows. All the demons do.

Sure, it would be nice. Everything safe, everyone safe and restored to who they were before the Fall, doing good as angels are meant to do, without hiding, without trauma, without being afraid. It's a nice fantasy, but it will never happen. Not in Heaven, anyway. Because Heaven is toxic, Crowley has learned that the hard way, and it's a knowledge you can't unlearn with a simple status change.

He doesn't want to unlearn it, anyway. The serpent of Eden is the last person who will choose "ignorance is bliss" over truth.

So I don't think we should fault Aziraphale for wanting Crowley to be an angel with him. For dreaming about the fantasy. Crowley himself has probably even dreamed it.

If Aziraphale has any fault, it's believing that Heaven is the place that can make that fantasy can come true.