#is coming into play. with how people see her human reactions vs isaac the actual robot's approach
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milfbrainrot · 3 months ago
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"claire's a bad mom" claire chose to have her kids claire tells her kids bedtime stories and claire pretends not to be in life threatening danger when she's terrified for her own and her kids' safety to help them stay calm and literally only wants to know if they're okay before prioritizing herself and keeping them far away from danger by rescuing herself i think ur just racist
#TO tag#anyway i like isaac's role here#i do wonder if the 'you do not have a husband' observation from him was the writers implying single parenthood is bad#and too difficult etc even though literally 99% of parents would yell at their kids for throwing things in a shuttle anD CRASHING THEM#i think any additional support in parenting is great but i do not like the nuclear family norm isaac was going off of even if it#was meant to be a convo starter given how it is also supposed to point out a problem -#claire having kids without a husband - that he can Solve#BUT ALSO I LIKE HIM IN THEIR FAMILY?#the orville experience is 'wow fucked up implications to get to this conclusion. unfortunately i like this conclusion.'#like him holding her hand while she's breaking down about ty?#you can kinda tell she has had the burden of everything bad that has ever happened to them on her and her alone#and for once she isn't alone in it? and that does mean something#it does not mean she is an insufficient parent#it just means it's easier with help#and idk if i trust the writers to understand that lol#espppppp with certain stereotypes but i am not going to get into that#i will say it is interesting she is a single black mom by choice#in a way that subverts the expectation that the kids' dad(s) left#but there are still stereotypes about fatherless black kids? so i am cautious abt the idea that isaac is Fixing things by filling a role#idk like you just rly gotta be careful with the implications lol i dont have the braincells to articulate it but#i think in most other media i would be slightly less concerned despite inevitable biases everywhere it's just.#this show in particular and its general audience base i do not trust#.... i have got to shut the fuck up but (metallic) white savior complex#i think i am making problems where there are non lmfao but i also notice a possible issue with at least how theyre perceived#with isaac INEVITABLY being the calm non emotional logic one#whereas... bc she is human!! claire gets angry#isaac's logical 'parenting' was more effective in conflict resolution#makes sense.#i do just wonder. how claire being a black woman. with emotions.#is coming into play. with how people see her human reactions vs isaac the actual robot's approach
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princess-of-france · 5 years ago
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I’m interested in your take on Angelo & Isabella w/ personality parallels (also just your opinion on Angelo especially tbh because I feel like I under-analyzed him when I read the play bc I was just. Well, found him scary :P) because obviously w/ your production you’re pretty deep in and I don’t see a lot of MFM content
Oof, this is a loaded question.
I’m happy to answer it, but I think I should make a disclaimer that—as you point out—my opinions of Angelo are skewed by my experiences as an actor inside a specific production. I’m also not an English scholar; I’m a theater artist. My lit crit skills are dodgy at best (as @lizbennett2013 knows all too well), and I don’t believe there is a single way to interpret any character in drama, especially when you’re dealing with heightened text. All I can do is give my honest appraisal of Angelo as I have encountered him dramaturgically through cutting our script, rehearsing Isabella, and seeing his iterations in other productions. 
So! Angelo and Isabella. Two sides of the same coin. I really think they are.
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Let’s get the obvious stuff out of the way first: Angelo is scary. He just is. His sexually motivated exploitation of authority continues to be one of the most transcendent aspects of this ever-timely play. However you stage it, however you trim the text, whatever charismatic actor you slot into the role, Angelo is a capital-T-Terror and there’s no getting around it. Coercive, manipulative, hypocritical, ruthless, misogynistic, fraudulent, and cruel, he basically spends the entirety of MEASURE FOR MEASURE committing crimes and then soliloquizing about how painful it all is for his bargain-price conscience. You’ll never hear me say he doesn’t deserve his reputation as one of the most reprehensible tyrants in all of Shakespeare. 
But.
Of the three defining qualities I see in Angelo—ideological dogmatism, rhetorical prowess, and professional pride—there’s not one of them that is not blisteringly prominent in his antagonist, Isabella. Despite the fact that she’s a Catholic republican (“Butt out of people’s lives, Big Government; God will judge us when we die!”) and he’s a Puritan[ical] bureaucrat (“My job is to regulate people’s lives because purgatory is a myth!”), they have far more in common, cognitively, than not. Understand: I’m not saying that Angelo is not a piece of shit for how he behaves throughout course of the play. Nor am I implying that Isabella is somehow culpable for his masturbatory exercise of power over her. My girl has flaws, but she’s unquestionably the hero of M4M. What I’m trying to articulate is that Angelo and Isabella were born with the same psychological toolkit, which they elect to apply towards radically different purposes. (Think Parseltongue and “It is our choices that show who we truly are, far more than our abilities…”) This shared intellectual arsenal is what makes their pair of scenes in Act Two so iconic. We basically get to watch them play out Newton’s Third Law in real time: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction… As far as rhetoric goes, neither Isabella nor Angelo can overwhelm the other. For every argument she makes in favor of mercy, he punctures it with legalism. For every judicial explication he provides, she dissolves it with morality. One minute, we’re nodding our heads along with Angelo as he explains why Christian values should have no place in a court of law; the next, we’re on our feet cheering for Isabella to convince him to factor human integrity into his role as a public servant. I can’t read 2.2 as anything other than the blueprint for every screenplay Aaron Sorkin ever wrote. It is the ultimate courtroom drama.
Just look at the play’s opening act. Angelo’s hasty promotion aside, both he and Isabella begin the story at the lowest rung of their respective vocational ladders: he’s a would-be Chief Justice, she’s a would-be Prioress. Deputy/nun. Politics/religion. Different spheres/same ambition. And, in like true zealots, both Angelo and Isabella express their commitment to their new duties in terms of self-flagellation:
“You may not so extenuate his offenseFor I have had such faults, but rather tell me,When I that censure him do so offend,Let mine own judgment pattern out my deathAnd nothing come in partial.”        (Angelo, II.i.29-33)
“And have you nuns no farther privileges?[…] I speak not as desiring more,But rather wishing a more strict restraintUpon the sisterhood, the votarists of Saint Clare.”        (Isabella, I.iv.1, 3-5)
It’s also worth mentioning that our first introduction to these characters features them scurrying along in the wake of an authority figure they respect. 
Act 1, Scene 1: Angelo wants to know the extent to which he can wield his law degree at the pleasure of the Duke of Vienna (the Duke himself!). 
Act 1, Scene 4: Isabella wants to know the extent to which she can practice self-denial for the glory of God and the approval of Mother Superior. 
They are both drawn to gravitas, to figures who represent order and authority. They are also drawn to discipline. He’s a non-drinking, non-smoking Precision. She’s a gluttony-abhorring Bride of Christ. Let the rest of the world eat cake. They will be eating their sins and purifying their souls, thank you very much.
At the risk of descending into the flaming pits of cliché, I’ll also touch on those three qualities I mentioned earlier, because who says the TPE (Three Paragraph Essay) is dead? 
First up: ideological dogmatism.
[Side note: I may be a crappy historian, but I do recognize there’s a historical paradigm at play in this text. Vienna needs to be a Catholic city and Angelo’s Protestantism needs to be allusive because Shakespeare presumably valued all his limbs and didn’t relish the idea of rotting in a Cheapside prison. If he’d lived in a “free press” kind of sociocultural context, he might have endowed his religious figures with a bit more Opinion. I digress.]
In the M4M-centered episode of Isaac Butler’s phenomenal podcast, “Lend Me Your Ears,” he interviews JohnPaul Spiro (Assistant Director of the School of Liberal Arts, Villanova University), who does a wonderfully unfussy job of summing up the Angelo/Isabella ideology parallel:
“In much the same way as our era is filled with political zealots—as well as, to a certain degree, religious zealots—what you’ll find when you look closer is there’s a small number of very loud people who are dominating the discourse. And a lot of people are in the middle and would rather not have to take sides. Claudio, he seems to be monogamous, he seems to want to just live a very simple life, he’s not really concerned with theological things. And when pressed on theological things, his point is: ‘I don’t really know. No one really knows what happen when you die, so I’m scared.’”
Because religious extremism lies at the heart of the rhetorical warfare between Angelo and Isabella, I think there’s a misconception that M4M is a Play About Religion. But the ONLY characters who canonically go to the mat about the finer points of theology are…wait for it…Angelo and Isabella. This is an early modern text brimming with religious figures (Sister Francisca, Friar Thomas, Friar Peter, even the phony Friar Lodowick), but not a single one of them gets on the pulpit about ANYTHING in the course of the entire play. Sister Francisca’s role consists of bemusedly listening to her youthful novitiate describe her desire for stricter prohibitions at the cloister. Friar Thomas, a sycophantic priest whose parish coffers are probably lined with Vincentio’s gold, spends his one onstage scene nodding his head sympathetically as the Duke over-explains why he is disguising himself as a monk. Friar Peter, the poor Jesuit roped into delivering the Duke’s messages, forgoes moralizing and instead uses his limited dialogue to try to help two disenfranchised women receive justice for their abuse. And Friar Lodowick, of course, is nothing but an alias for a cowardly sociopath who wants to run the world without being held accountable for his mistakes. Nothing evangelical about any of that.
But Angelo and Isabella? They can’t shut up about religion. 
Isabella wants Angelo to temper his punitive Weltanschauung with morality, ideology, Platonic ideals, metaphysics…in short, all of the intangibles that can’t be used as evidence in a court of law. 
“Why, all the souls that were were forfeit onceAnd He that might the vantage best have tookFound out the remedy. How would you be,If He, which is the top of judgment, shouldBut judge you as you are? O, think on thatAnd mercy then will breathe within your lips,Like man new made.”        (Isabella, II.ii.97-103)
Angelo, in turn, wants Isabella to recognize the futility of Catholicism as a proper tool for creating heaven on earth because Catholicism permits withdrawal from the world and the abdication of earthly responsibility (cf: nunnery). Instead, he argues, what God actually needs is for people to actively toil in their communities to criminalize, punish, and eradicate sin. 
“I show [pity] most of all when I show justice,For then I pity those I do not know,Which a dismissed offense would after gall,And do him right that—answering one foul wrong—Lives not to act another.”        (Angelo, II.ii.128-132)
They take up the two sides of a theological debate that predates Christianity: ethics vs. justice. And that conflict is itself inextricably tied to the timeless political debate of non-intervention vs. regulation. And the thing is: even when Angelo and Isabella realize the irreconcilability of their respective schools of thought, they KEEP ARGUING ABOUT IT because extremism is just that: extreme. Angelo and Isabella may be major players in M4M, but they represent the radical minority of their world. They are the “small group of very loud people” and literally everyone is a moderate next to them. Ideology, not desire, is the bedrock of their personhood. When confronted with a person of an uncompromisingly polar viewpoint, they behave as if it might be possible to change the viewpoint of that person because the alternative is to admit defeat. To tragic effect, they hold their ideals more sacred than human life. For Angelo, that ideal is the law (i.e. integrity of action). For Isabella, it’s chastity (i.e. integrity of the soul). They are dogmatic in their beliefs, inflexible in their opinions, and inalienably convinced of their own “rightness.” They are austere, incisive, independent, articulate, and sharp. They are disgusted by the depravity of the world around them and determined to transcend it. What differentiates them is the content of their convictions, but they rate the value of that conviction equally.
So, yes, M4M is a play acutely interested in how religion shapes the law and human behavior. But I would argue that it is really only about one thing: power.
Which brings me to rhetoric.
Angelo and Isabella are lawyers. Both of them. High-powered, quick-thinking, weakness-sniffing, self-righteous litigators. Sure, Isabella may not have the paperwork to prove it; she was conceived by an Englishman in the early 17th century. But much in the same way that it’s obvious to everyone with eyes that would-be nun Maria [von Trapp] is a born music teacher from the first scene of The Sound of Music, so is it evident from Isabella’s first moments onstage that she is a born lawyer. She was, quite simply, born to argue.
Consider her first scene onstage: in the nunnery, with Lucio and Francisca. Unlike the audience, Isabella doesn’t have empirical evidence of Lucio’s amorality and notorious womanizing. She doesn’t need it. She can smell it on him. And in six short lines, she wipes the mosaic-laced marble floor of the cathedral with his ass:
LUCIOCan you so stead meAs bring me to the sight of Isabella,A novice of this place and the fair sisterTo her unhappy brother, Claudio?
ISABELLAWhy her “unhappy brother”? Let me ask,The rather for I now must make you knowI am that Isabella, and his sister.
LUCIOGentle and fair, your brother kindly greets you.Not to be weary with you, he’s in prison.
ISABELLAWoe me, for what?
LUCIOFor that which, if myself might be his judge,He should receive his punishment in thanks:He hath got his friend with child.
ISABELLASir, make me not your story.
LUCIO‘Tis true.I would not, though ‘tis my familiar sinWith maids to seem the lapwing and to jest,Tongue far from heart, play with all virgins so.I hold you as a thing enskied and sainted,By your renouncement an immortal spiritAnd to be talked with in sincerityAs with a saint.
ISABELLAYou do blaspheme the good in mocking me.
        (I.iv.18-40)
I’m not going to venture down the English professor’s rabbit hole of rhetorical devices and syntactical analysis—partly because there are thousands of scholars who have already done it better than I ever could (check out Claire McEachern and Julie Felise Dubiner!) and partly because I’ve been blathering for too long in general. But sufficed to say that three hallmarks of a good lawyer are as follows: 
The ability to seize and repurpose the language of one’s opponent (“Why her ‘unhappy brother?’”)
The ability to spot and sidestep landmines (“Sir, make me not your story.”)
The ability to redirect conversation (“You do blaspheme.”)
By that metric alone, Isabella’s performance here is worthy of the Harvard Law Review. 
And then, of course, two scenes later, she meets her match. 
A dear friend of mine, who is a first-year at Georgetown Law and basically the smartest person I’ve ever met, once told me: “The best and worst thing that can happen to a good lawyer is to meet another good lawyer with different ideas.” I do apologize for invoking Sorkin twice in one essay, but honestly: “The President likes smart people who disagree with him” (Leo, The West Wing, 2x05). It is a truth universally acknowledged that however infuriating it is for a highly intelligent person to debate with an equally intelligent person who disagrees with everything they stand for, it can also be unbelievably stimulating and monumentally entertaining to watch. (Hello, 50 million seasons of Law & Order.)
I’m now two weeks deep into rehearsals for M4M and I still get gobsmacked, daily, by the sheer majesty of Angelo’s and Isabella’s rhetoric. Theirs goes so far beyond the mental agility of anyone else in this play, or even—dare I say it—in Shakespeare’s canon. They are beyond intelligent. They are freaky genius kids with the kind of sanctimonious stubbornness that would be obnoxious if it weren’t so damn compelling. Between the two of them, between their two infamous scenes, they pull out every rhetorical trick in the book and play approximately seventeen unique rounds of intellectual checkers. (I say checkers because chess is too slow for them. If you want chilly brinksmanship, check out the Roman plays. Angelo and Isabella have agendas and professional pride on the line. Time is of the essence.)
ISABELLAI do think that you might pardon him,And neither heaven nor man grieve at the mercy.
ANGELOI will not do it.
ISABELLABut can you, if you would?
ANGELOLook, what I cannot, that I will not do.
ISABELLABut might you do it, and do the world no wrongIf so your heart were touched with that remorseAs mine is to him?
ANGELOHe’s sentenced. ‘Tis too late.
ISABELLA“Too late”? Why, no. I, that do speak a word,Might call it back again.
        (II.ii.67-78 [italics are mine])
Things get even more complicated when they start moving into those same theoretical marshes I described earlier:
“If he had been as you, and you as he,You would have slipped like him, but he like youWould not have been so stern.”        (Isabella, II.ii.84-86)
“The law hath not been dead, though it hath slept.Those many had not dared to do that evilIf the first that did th’ edict infringeHad answered for his deed. Now ‘tis awake…”        (Angelo, II.ii.117-120)
ENOUGH WITH THE METAPHORS ALREADY. CLAUDIO IS ON DEATH ROW.
And even when they finally, finally get to the point, they remain at an impasse:
ISABELLAYet show some pity.
ANGELOI show it most when I show justice.
        (II.ii.127-128)
Which causes Isabella essentially to lose all sense of self-awareness and control because goddam it, never once in her entire life has she met a person she couldn’t out-argue, who the fuck does this deputy think he is, this was supposed to be a simple mission and she’s been standing in this room for ten minutes and he’s still siTTING THERE SMILING AT HER WHAT THE F—
“So you must be the first that gives this sentence,And he that suffers. O, it is excellentTo have a giant’s strength, but it is tyrannousTo use it like a giant[…]Could great men thunderAs Jove himself does, Jove would never be quiet,For every pelting, petty officerWould use his heaven for thunder,Nothing but thunder. Merciful heaven,Thou rather with thy sharp and sulfurous boltSplits the un-wedgeable and gnarlèd oakThan the soft myrtle. But man, proud man,Dressed in a little brief authority,Most ignorant of what he’s most assured,His glassy essence like an angry apePlays such fantastic tricks before high heavenAs makes the angels weep, who with our spleensWould all themselves laugh mortal.”        (Isabella, II.ii.134-152)
Which causes ANGELO to lose all self-awareness and control because goddam it, never once in his entire life has he met a person he couldn’t out-argue, who the fuck does this nun think she is, this was supposed to be a simple smackdown and she’s been standing in this room for ten minutes and he’s still waiting for her to admit defeat and oh God oh no oh no oh no why can’t he look away from her face, what the fuck is happening what the F—
ANGELOWHY DO YOU PUT THESE SAYINGS UPON ME?
ISABELLABecause authority, though it err like others,Hath yet a kind of medicine in itselfThat skins the vice o’ th’ top. Go to your bosom,Knock there, and ask your heart what it doth knowThat’s like my brother’s fault. If it confessA natural guiltiness such as is his,Let it not sound a thought upon your tongueAgainst my brother’s life.
ANGELO, asideShe speaks and ‘tis such senseThat my sense breeds with it.
        (II.ii.163-173)
Finally, Angelo gets her to leave and faces the music. My tremendous co-actor, Jude Van der Voorde, always slays this soliloquy.
“What’s this, what’s this? Is this her fault or mine?The tempter or the tempted, who sins most, ha?Not she; nor doth she tempt, but it is IThat, lying by the violet in the sun,Do as the carrion does, not as the flower,Corrupt with virtuous season.”        (Angelo, II.iv.199-204)
[Non sequitur: Jude is the kind of actor actors dream of acting with. He’s always got at least one trick up his sleeve, so my Isabella is constantly second-guessing herself around him. And he does the “sleazy wunderkind act” with a panache rivaling BJ Novak’s in Season 4 of The Office. He’s also one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. Kids, don’t be Method. Make friends with your fellow actors. Leave the emotions onstage and go get a midnight pizza. You will be so much happier.]
With regards to the M4M narrative, we all know what happens next, although it takes an agonizing 175 lines of text in 2.4 before Shakespeare levels off and gives us the canonical threat:
“Redeem thy brotherBy yielding up thy body to my will,Or else he must not only die the death,But thy unkindness shall his death draw outTo lingering sufferance. Answer me tomorrowOr by the affection that now guides me mostI’ll prove a tyrant to him. As for you:Say what you can, my false o’erweighs your true.”        (Angelo, II.iv.177-184)
What precedes this is the kind of tension-groaning, hair-splitting, goosebump-raising rhetorical tarantella that television writers today spend their entire careers trying to emulate. Isabella plays the fool for as long as she possibly can…
ANGELONay, but hear me.Your sense pursues not mine. Either you are ignorantOr seem so, crafty, and that’s not good.
ISABELLALet me be ignorant, and in nothing goodBut graciously to know I am no better.
        (II.iv.79-83)
…but eventually Angelo forces her hand and she has to deflect his onslaught with the sleek diplomacy of a kidnapping victim.
ISABELLABetter it were a brother died at onceThan that a sister, by redeeming him,Should die forever.
ANGELOWere not you then as cruel as the sentenceThat you have slandered so?
ISABELLAIgnomy in ransom and free pardonAre of two houses. Lawful mercyIs nothing kin to foul redemption.
ANGELOYou seemed of late to make the law a tyrant,And rather proved the sliding of your brotherA merriment than a vice.
ISABELLAO, pardon me, my lord. It oft falls out,To have what we would have, we speak not what we mean.I something do excuse the thing I hateFor his advantage that I dearly love.
        (II.iv.114-128)
Remember when I said that Angelo and Isabella are alike in that they are inalienably convinced of their own “rightness”? That still holds true. But now Angelo, without warning, has moved beyond the conceits of debate and is taking Isabella’s rhetorical arguments from 2.2 at literal face value in order to trip her up. He’s brought ideology crashing down to earth and introduced their physical relationship into the conversation…again, without warning and very much without her consent. And she has to figure out a way to back-peddle on her words without yielding defeat of the argument. It is nigh impossible. And I bring it up because guess who gets trapped in the exact same situation three short acts later?
LUCIOCome, sir; come, sir; come, sir; foh, sir! Why, you bald-pated, lying rascal, you must be hooded, must you? Show your knave’s visage, with a pox to you! Show your sheep-biting face, and be hanged an hour! Will ‘t not off?
        (LUCIO pulls off the friar’s hood and reveals the DUKE.)
DUKEThou art the first knave that e’er made’st a duke.—First, Provost, let me bail these gentle three.—Sneak not away, sir, for the friar and youMust have a word anon.—Lay hold on him.
LUCIOThis may prove worse than hanging.
DUKEWhat you have spoke I pardon. Sit you down.We’ll borrow place of him.       (to Angelo)Sir, by your leave.Hast thou or word, or wit, or impudenceThat yet can do thee office? If thou hast,Rely upon it till my tale be heardAnd hold no longer out.
ANGELOO my dread lord,I should be guiltier than my guiltinessTo think I can be undiscernible,When I perceive your Grace, like power divine,Hath looked upon my passes.         (V.i.395-421)
Game, set, match.
As for ego… Do I really need to talk about professional pride? I don’t think so. It’s Angelo and Isabella. Pride leaks out of every virtually every line they speak in this play. Pride in their conviction, pride in their moral righteousness, pride in their intellect, pride in their ability to judge the world with clarity (or whatever). Angelo actually admits it out loud to us in perhaps his most famous soliloquy, because the little fucker has a lot more Catholic guilt about lusting after a novitiate nun than his Protestant heart would like to admit:
“The state whereon I studiedIs, like a good thing being often read,Grown sere and tedious. Yea, my gravity,Wherein—let no man hear me—I take pride,Could I with boot change for an idle plumeWhich the air beats for vain.”        (Angelo, II.iv.7-15)
And even though Isabella could easily be the poster child for Christian piety, she’s so damn proud of her own humility that she occasionally threatens to void it altogether. 
ANGELOWhat would you do?
ISABELLAAs much for my poor brother as myself.That is, were I under the terms of death,Th’ impression of keen whips I’d wear as rubiesAnd strip myself to death as to a bedThat longing have been sick for, ere I’d yieldMy body up to shame.
        (II.iv.107-111)
Look at me, Angelo. Look at this body. It’s mine. Mine and God’s. I see what you’re doing, I know where you’re trying to go. And it is never. going. to happen.
Two weeks into rehearsal and I’m still not sure I’m convincing in my delivery of these lines. I’ve watched every filmed production of M4M I can get my hands on, and it’s no help. I just don’t know what to make of this. Scholars disagree virulently about these lines, but also…scholars aren’t actors, you know? I find myself questioning everything every time I get to this passage. Is Isabella actually a virgin? I’m not sure. Chastity and virginity aren’t actually the same thing and Isabella, for all her idealism, is more worldly than many of her ingenue brethren. One thing is for sure: she’s flushed with self-righteousness when she speaks these words. Angelo may be a haughty son of a bitch, but so is she, so is she, so is she.
Ugh, these characters. I love them so much. I hate Angelo, I do. I also love him. And God help me I love Isabella. They’re dumpster fires of human conviction and I’m so grateful to Shakespeare for giving us their story and for understanding four hundred fucking years ago, that this, THIS is the pinnacle of hell in the female experience: “Who would believe thee, Isabel?”
#MeToo
Thank you, Will. Thank you.
I feel like I should apologize for the length of this reply, but I’ve had so much freaking fun that I also don’t feel apologetic. Thank you for this amazing question! Hope you’re doing well! xx Claire
Tagging @malvoliowithin @measureformeasure @harry-leroy @suits-of-woe
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popculturespiritwow · 6 years ago
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THE WICKED + THE DIVINE #33: YOUR DERIVATIVE SHIT (AKA TWIST AND SHOUT)
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This cover. Black to me signals death, or something awful. And I was certain that we get all-black pages somewhat regularly in WicDiv, but you know, it’s not true. Both when Luci gets “killed” and Laura herself “dies”, we get pages that are black but for two tiny almost exactly duplicated comments.
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The Underworld is obviously a land of darkness, and there are two moments – during Laura’s first trip down there and then when Persephone first gets her hands on Woden – where we get a splash page of endless black into which the character is falling.
But the only time in WicDiv that we’re given a non-dialogue-y black page is when Sakhmet takes out her dad in issue 17, and again in issue 28 when she massacres her party people after coming to believe they’re all laughing at her. That last one does give one tiny little glimpse of her, though.
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So if there is a “language” to the all-blacks (non haka version) (love you Kiwis), it would seem to be something to do with violence and lost time.
But we’ve already done all the blood and nightmares in this arc, and this issue is instead filled with twists and reveals and honest soul-rending conversation and reunions and new friends and overall kind of a lot of reader satisfaction.  So a very different thing.
Another take on the all-black is this is what you put on your cover when you’re terrified anything else will give something away. But for as much anxiety as Kieron talks about in his notes about “keeping the secrets” of this issue (and also his sense of what nonsense that fear is), he and Jamie have never had any trouble obscuring  reveals before.
So here’s my thought: Maybe it’s like Disneyland. Disney theme parks are built in such a way that on the way in you have to go through a tunnel of some kind, and before you do you can’t really see inside to all the happy happy joy joy good stuff.
The idea is, Disney wants you to feel like you’re entering into a whole different world than the one you left behind, a better world where you can be happy and spend money and want to take the same picture in front of the castle that everyone else does and still feel like it’s special.  And part of that is creating a clear sense of boundary; there was where you were and there’s where you’re going, and the tunnel stands as passage in between.
Maybe that’s why you do a black cover: Not to hide anything or signal violence but to create a boundary, a sense of a passage into something new. 
PHALLUCIES
So we begin with the Vibrator as key. I want to say it might be the perfect Gillen/McKelvie image – it’s naughty and seems like a joke and has been sitting there for so long that we no longer think much of it when in fact it is absolutely essential.
Nothing in WicDiv is superfluous, minor or irrelevant. Everything is trying to express something important. (TELL US ABOUT THE VEILS KIERON.)
A bigger question: does the fact that Jon (and not only Jon but the truth about Laura) is released into the story via a phallic device that vibrates have even more to say? Is pleasure or self-care in a sense the key in WicDiv, a path to freedom and life?
Have I not mentioned already I was an English major?
READ ONLY MIMIRY (#SorryNotSorry)
After an arc that seems very caught up in how the characters are all caught up in/pinned down by stories, suddenly out of nowhere we have Jon, this breath of fresh air who sees that path for the garbage it is and refuses it. He will not fit the options Ananke poses, or any duality, thanks very much.
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He is the one who builds.
Of course he is then force-wrapped into stories – the Pantheon (I love the horror of his reaction to his ascent), this weird Odin/Thor thing (complete with the nod to Thor’s alter ego Donald Blake) and also the biblical Abraham and Isaac story, the father sacrificing his son to God (now comes with beheading!).
And if I understand the father/son dynamic, as much as Jon sees the Mimir thing for the lie or trap it is, he still can’t quite help himself from being a builder. There are rules he can bend (see: vibrator) but he can’t quite enact a full break.
His call is really quite beautiful. “You walked among your foes for the sake of love,” the spooky Ananke heads say. “Struck down you are raised up, the Sky King’s grandest treasure.” It’s pretty much the absolute opposite of his Dad’s call.
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How crazy is it that we’re 2/3rds done with the series, we’ve just been introduced to a major new character (okay we saw him once before but still), and he fits in so well?
Probably we’re being set up for betrayal and heartbreak, but for now I love it with all the loves. 
MACK THAT KNIFE
Can we just talk about the knife for a second? Like, how exactly does it work? Clearly it somehow enables the user to disengage the head from the body while keeping the head alive. But whereas with Jon that might have happened literally – put your elbow into it, David! – in the case of Luci, Tara and Inanna Ananke used her signature head pop. So what’s the deal? It’s enough to have the knife in your possession when doing with the murdering, or something else?
Also, post-beheading, we see Ananke referring to Jon as “it”.
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Is this because he’s now “just” a living head? Or is this how she actually honestly sees all the gods?  It’s um, upsetting to say the least. 
Of course so is Woden’s take on things: Jon stole my life (by being born, you horrible human looking meat puppet), so now I get to steal his.
I don’t know how it would have been possible Woden could sink lower in my estimation than he has (#Dio4Vr), but in fact it is and he has.
CASSANDRA VS. THE DESTROYER ROUND II
As much as I love the Jon reveal, the thing that really rocked my world was actually not that but Laura explaining what she’s been going through. I just – this poor girl. And though we still have two arcs to go, in a way this moment is the heart of the series. Kieron seems to say as much in the notes, talking about how the artist lives in this awful reality of getting what they dreamed of, but it involves awful stuff happening to oneself and others. 
“I’ve talked about having mixed feelings about WicDiv’s success. Laura’s arc is it writ large. I hate that the definitive work of my career is this. If my Dad was not dead I would not have written this book. There is a guilt and anger that is hard to articulate directly there, and is the material I was mining for this.”
Art is built on suffering and loss—and that means on the back of horror done to others. To wish to be an artist is in a sense to sacrifice those relationships in a fundamental and sometimes literal way, in fact that seems a necessity to one’s success. Being a storyteller may be incredibly nourishing for others, but it’s built on harm done to those you love.
Jesus Christ this is dark. And we haven’t even gotten to the point yet of facing the question that society’s survival is supposedly built on those artists’, those children’s destruction. We love you so much, you inspire us, but what cements that for the century is your deaths.
What do you make of this follow-up moment where Laura suddenly turns it to 11 with Cass?
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It only happens after Cassandra calls Laura Persephone for the first time, which seems like it’s meant as a kind of respect. Knowing what she’s been through, she is now worthy of her name in Cassandra’s eyes. She is an equal.
Except it seems to set Laura on the path of what – connection, for sure. But through sex, which is actually more escape than intimacy.
What is “The Destroyer”, in the end? Less a malevolence associated with Laura, it seems to me, than the character of all the gods when they get lost in their stories about themselves.  
(More to the point: What the heck is the Machine? Jon says it does nothing. Whuhhh?)
A STEP A HEAD/STOP MAKING SENSE
So, after quite some issues away from it, in the end we return to the heads. Lots and lots of heads. Jon’s head (god that’s a delightful reveal), then Sakhmet’s slice of head – and Minerva – and then finally, the big finish.
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I would say my head exploded except I feel like that gag has already been played.
As he has mentioned often in his notes, Kieron loves to hide much bigger reveals within the reveal we know that’s coming. In this case, we knew there was this other Daft Punk member hiding in the darkness somewhere, and we knew there was something up with Laura we needed to hear about.
So we get that and say thank you, and then there’s still four incredible jaw dropping can we please do a happy dance for Luci pages.
Kieron goes into a ton more detail on this writing strategy here, and the particular nightmare challenges posed by this issue. I’ll post excerpts below, but you should read them in full. They are fantastic.
But if I can just ask one question: What the hell happened with Minerva? Am I to believe she did not feel bad about Sakhmet, that she’s that good an actor? Je refuse! And also isn’t the point of the Sakhead reveal that still-Minerva blew it with her fearfulness and lack of skill?
#CRAFTSERVICE: ON TWISTS
Okay… twists.
In reality, for me, it’s a case of once you’ve decided that this is the plot, the only way to do it is dovetail towards an issue like this. Any of these individual beats provide too much connective tissue to the other ones, meaning all must be revealed or none.
(You could argue about Minerva, I suspect. Maybe.)
It’s been strange writing a book like this – when so much is there early on. Seeing who got what and who didn’t, and how people reinforced people has been interesting. That the core WicDiv tumblr community has never really suspected Minerva was off is in some way a surprise – though I’ve had people talk about that directly and personally. Blake/Jon and Minerva-is-Off-In-Some-Way were the two twists I would guard, but their primary importance was in how they led to the Heads.
When Ray Fawkes told me “There’s a reason you’re doing all the decapitations, right?” circa issue 2, I suspected that I’d overplayed the hand by having a literal talking head in issue 3… but it turned out fine.
“Played the hand” is interesting phrasing, and telling. Writing something as intricate as this is like doing a slow-motion card trick, in public, constantly. It is a form of constant stress. I have been paranoid of fucking it up in stupid ways, and it’s impacted every single conversation I’ve ever had about WicDiv. Like just writing one name when I mean another or something. There was a hilarious panic when I added ‘Killer Queen’ to the playlist, just thinking of it as a quite funny Ananke song… and then realised there was only one character in the cast with a connection to the band Queen, and that was Minerva. Should I take it off the playlist? No, someone may notice that, and it’s against my rules anyway. I quickly added a few other things to camouflage it.
As if anyone is watching that closely, y'know?
That’s an extreme example, but an entirely characteristic one. I have lost sleep over it. Even a year ago, I wished I could just get to 33 and not worry about it. When 33 dropped, it was simultaneously excellent (the response was basically what we expected) and an anticlimax (The amount of emotional and intellectual effort you put into doing this is not worth it. It could never be worth it.) I’ve been telling friends that I’ll never write a story that operates like this again. Partially that is because I wouldn’t want to repeat myself, and partially because – as I said above – I think twists are less effective in long-form serialised work in 2017, but mainly as I don’t think I want to do this to myself again. I’ll find some other way to torture myself.
 So apparently Mini has been off all this time. I’m stunned by that.
#CRAFTSERVICE: MORE ON TWISTS!
I’d note that setting up twists that *are* easily guessable by the hardcore is part of the methodology. Having a nice big twist foreshadowed heavily is a good way to hide another twist behind it. “Hey – pay attention to this less subtle sleight of hand while I perform the actual sleight of hand over here.”
Oh you’re expecting a big reveal are you, cool cool cool here it is and also SURPRISE.
He talks about this again later, in response to the reveal that Mimir is just a talking head.
When thinking of plot structure, I talk about a few ways to disguise twists. Earlier, I mentioned a Big Twist can make people suspect the twists are over. This is something I tend to think of as a revealed move. As in, you create a machine of logic with a missing part. You add the missing part as late as possible, and then immediately move to what has been concealed before the audience is able to process the new information.
Oh you’re blown away by Mimir are you? SURPRISE, there are three other heads.  And also Minerva is not Minerva.
It’s a great insight, too – if you fear one bit of new information is going to naturally lead to others, drop it all right now before they even have time to think about it.
#CRAFTSERVICE: ON WHAT WRITING IS FOR
I know this is a lot of quoting the author, but hey it’s a big issue and the author has some great stuff to say and it is helping me. 
How do I actually feel when someone guesses something that’s going to happen? Well, this is long enough already. Let’s put the personal stuff beneath a cut…
I’d say you sigh “Oh, poop” and shrug.
And then you get over your ass, because you know all the above is true. Writers are often megalomaniacs who think they can control everyone’s response to their work. We don’t. We can’t control everything. We can barely control anything. We really have to let go. I’ve said WicDiv is a device to help me improve as a person, yes? It would include in this area. I have to learn to let it go, and internalise all of the above. If I can make most of my readership have the vague emotional response I’m looking for, I’m winning.
Certainly I’ve heard many writers talk about their writing as coming from a personal place. And as a writer myself I’ve had to learn (again and again) that having a sparkly fun idea is not going to be enough to get me up and writing every day, even if people like it. That I need what I’m writing to come from something more specific in me.
But I don’t know that I’ve ever heard an artist talk about their work as well, their work. The journey they’re taking to try and deal with something or figure something out or to let go and get free and be a better version of them. It makes so much sense, and man does it challenge me to have another think about my own work. Because I think most of the time I almost think of the journey as the thing that has to come before the work, the thing that prevents the work – Ima just get my act together and then write this script in fifteen years or so. And reading this it strikes me  oh wait, that’s just the thing I tell myself so I don’t have to do the work.
 There’s so much more to say about this issue. But it’s taken me the better part of a week to say this much already so maybe I’ll just leave it there. Suffice to say, it’s a giant of story.
(And yes, that’s my exhausted end of words attempt at a Mimir pun.)
I’ll be back next week with the two specials. And then, Mothering Invention!
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targaryenparty · 7 years ago
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Interactions between Jon and other characters that will certainly be explored next season
[DISCLAIMER: if you're a j0nsa shipper, you might be offended by my opinion, so please just ignore this post and keep scrolling down jon's tag. I'm tagging Jon Snow for obvious reasons, but I'm avoiding tagging this post in Sansa's tag cause I know that a big number of her fans are also j0nsa shippers]
I've seen people in this fandom say that season 8 will be Jon/Sansa centred and they might end up together. I've seen people say they're plotting together against Daenerys. I've seen people say she'll be the one to help Jon overcome his struggle when he finds out his true parentage. There's even a youtube video discussing this (and I think they aren't j0nsa shippers), and they say that season 8 will be a battle for jon's true self. In one side we'll have Sansa pushing him for his Stark blood/ruling the North and on the other, Dany pushing him for his Targaryen blood/ruling the 7K.
Wtf are these people smoking? Unfortunately (cause I actually do enjoy their dynamic), I think it's pretty obvious that Jon's relationship with Sansa won't be explored that much during our last season. That's probably one of the reasons why their partnership was so well developed in season 6 and in the beginning of season 7, cause I think that was the time the writers knew they would have to bond these 2 characters.
The reason why I think the Jon/Sansa dynamic will be put a bit aside in the last season is because Jon's arc for next season will certainly center around this relationships/situations:
1. Arya: do I even have to say this? Apparently yes, cause some people have a weak ass memory. Arya is a huge part of Jon's life/story, and yet, they shared ONE SCENE. They'll have to bond similarly (probably even more) to the way Jon and Sansa bonded in season 6/7. They have to realize they both changed completely and they have to grow to accept these changes. Arya will probably be the one Jon will open up to when he learns about his true parentage, as she was always the one to make him feel accept no matter what. She's also the one with an interesting connection to Lyanna. I can't understand people who think this role will be played by Sansa. Why would the writers do that? Jon and Arya's bonding will already be suffering from a 6 episode season, yall really think they'll waste scenes like this with characters that already had 2 seasons to bond? This "oh shit, who am I? Am I Stark or what?" dialogue could be a great way to show their deep love and appreciation for each other, and of course, how much they missed one another.
2. Bran: as established last season, he'll be the one (along with Sam) to tell Jon about his parentage and he can also find a way (if necessary) to prove it, thanks to his connection with Meera. In the past, Jon also had an special bond with him, and as with Arya, he'll try to reconnect with him (but Bran's probably going to be like 'not here for this bro'). At last, it's clear that Bran, Jon and Dany are the 3 protagonists whose stories are more closely attached to the Night King plot, and the 3 of them will defeat him together.
3. Sam: he and Jon have been apart for a long time, and there's definitely some reconnection to be done as well. Sam will also have an important part to play when it comes to Jon's parentage revelation, and with Bran, he'll be the one to reveal it and try to prove it. According to John Bradley, Sam&Bran will be an important duo, and the combination of Sam's book knowledge and Bran's power will be vital for Jon (and Dany) and their fight against the NK. It's also expected a resolution of the whole "you're fucking the woman who burned my brother" problem and Jon having to decide if he'll defend Dany's decision or condemn it. (but I don't think this will take a lot of screentime, honestly. John himself seemed dismissive about it).
4. Night King (and the war itself): I mean, we all know that a big part of Jon's screentime will be dedicated to his fight against the Night King (it's practically personal by now). Battle planning, fights, losses, dealing with these losses and potentially having to ride a dragon.
5. Daenerys: obviously. Their political and romantic relationship is the point of the story will obviously be a big (if not the biggest) focus on their season 8 arcs. Their romance/alliance ended in a cliffhanger in season 7, so a well developed resolution is expected. Well developed, folks. So yeah, people who think Dany will find out about Jon's parentage in episode 1, flip out (mAd QwEEn), abandon Jon and let him free for his true love Sansa and OMG dAnCe oF ThE DrAgonS 2, can just kindly leave, please. Things are not that black and white, and that's not how television and storytelling works. So, for season 8, Jon will have to decide which side he'll take in the 'Northern lords vs Daenerys' narrative and of course, how he'll deal with the fact that he loves his biological father's sister. And how will this fact change their political alliance? Will they put this whole rightful heir matter on hold to deal with the NK first? What if she's pregnant? Will they marry? Will he accept marrying her against his religion? Or will he change his mind about having a bastard son? Real shit. Complicated shit.
So yeah, I think these are the characters/situations Jon will interact the most with, and most of his screentime will be dedicated to (not listed in any order or level of relevance).
"What about Sansa?". Well, it baffles me that so many people seem to firmly believe that the last season will focus on Jon and Sansa. I'm not saying they'll forget about each other's existence. Sansa will definitely be an important part of the whole North vs Daenerys and Jon bending the knee discussion, and her position will obviously be significant to this resolution. But to me, her part in this discussion will trigger way more moments between her and Dany than her and Jon. Is it just me? I mean, we've seen how Jon and Sansa work together. We've seen they trust each other. They've seen that. We've seen that even somehow tempted, Sansa didn't betray Jon and stood by his side. We've seen that even with a different last name than hers, she finally accepts him as a Stark and Ned Stark's son. Her reaction to Dany, though, is still a mystery. To us and to them. So the writers will definitely explore a bit of that, and those interactions will culminate in Sansa's decision to either support the fact that Jon bent the knee or to go against it. So I think in season 8 Sansa could have more significant moments with Dany than with Jon.
It's important to remember that there's so many things incredibly relevant to the endgame of this series, and all these situations I listed are only about one character. But we still have an enormous amount of other characters, each one with open storylines and past relationships to be fully developed and closed in only 6 episodes.
It's crazy to think that there're humans out there bravely believing the writers will somehow find time to include a new and completely out of the box undercover Jon plot, with no real clues and indications to set up the twist. Cause yes, even a twist must be subtly set up in well written scripts. The reason why the Winterfell storyline floped so hard last season was due to the lack of subtle clues to set it up, clues that we, as watchers, don't even consciously assimilate until the twist bomb explodes in the narrative. Only then the tiny puzzles start fitting in, and the whole picture starts making sense (sometimes rewatching is required, but as you catch the hints dropped along the way, the magic happens). No clues were given to show us that Arya and Sansa were playing Littlefinger, because well, they weren't (as stated by Isaac himself). If you rewatch it searching for clues, you'll find none, and that leaves us watchers with the sense that we were cheated. And that's what we call bad storytelling. The choice to turn the Littlefinger thing into a twist was posterior to the writing process, and that's what made the whole thing seem so afterthought and stupid.
With the undercover plot, to avoid the same poor results of the Winterfell storyline, they should've given us small hints in season 7. A quick shot of Sansa reading an unknown letter and burning it when someone approached her would be a good one. Or Varys questioning Jon's motives and asking who he's been writing so frequently. Or Drogon not being so fond of Jon (dragons are smart as fuck and they probably know a fake ho when they see one. Drogon reacting weirdly to Jon would be an interesting thing to us, watchers, as we would already know at the time that Jon's a Targaryen, but it wouldn't be a totally obvious clue, cause it could just means that Dany's dragons weren't fond of strangers. Even Targaryen strangers). Giving us tiny hints like that would be much more fitting with the style of twists that Game of Thrones is famous for. Even the biggest plot twist of the series (Hordor) was hinted in a smart way, with a scene of Bran calling for Ned in his vision, and Ned turning back to look at him, establishing that these visions can overlap with the past and somehow change it. Littlefinger betraying Ned in season one was heavily hinted. The Red wedding was hinted. Joffrey's murder was hinted. Jon betraying Ygritte was heavily hinted (it was actually quite obvious). Every single twist in Game of Thrones was carefully constructed to appear like an out of nowhere twist, but in reality, clues were carefully placed and created, with the exception of the stupid Winterfell plot last season.
So again: nothing to hint that Jon is undercover was given to us, and in the mist of all the stories to be wrapped up, to add a huge one like that and to have to explain it without the help of placed clues is just... amateurish. To say the least. And then, to go even further and create from scratch a romantic relationship between Jon and Sansa that, again, wasn't properly hinted would be straight up stupidity. To believe that the writers could do that successfully while having to develop so many past relationships, closing so many opened plots, starting, developing and resolving 2 wars and explaining all the shit left behind in 6 fucking episodes is the definition clueless. And it's especially ironic that this belief comes from a part of the fandom that constantly shits on D&D skills but that's none of my business.
Starting huge plots like these (undercover Jon or a j0nsa romance) from scratch in the last season would be a huge waste of precious time (literally) that could be used to fully complete every storyline, every relationship and every character development. Season 8 is about closure. EVERYTHING that was presented to us in all these years/books/seasons have to somehow be successfully resolved in 6 bloody episodes. Ain't nobody got time to start shit from nowhere.
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