#in the show and like 100% not valyrian bc that would

[rodriktheereader]

here’s how nettles can still win: maybe rhaena encounters nettles when she finds sheepstealer? like they are already bonded or something?

[backjustforberena]

Your thoughts on... will the show go with Corlys infidelity or, because show version (and Steve andbeve) are always described like real love, the show will take another route (maybe being Vaemond son(s) )

In the hooks I had a problem with the seed, specially those boys, like Laena and Laenor were dragon riders bc Rhaenys. Corlys have like 5% of Targaryen blood and Velaryon weren't dragon rides not even in their hometown....

Speaking of Laena and Laenor, am I correct that before the dance, they are the only not targaryen in last name, to have dragons? Jahaerys was an ass, so maybe the good queen was behind it? Or Rhaenys fought for their birthright (since the throne was taken away)?

I haven't a clue about Corlys's infidelity. I think I've come round to the fact that the boys definitely will be Corlys's, in the show. It's murkier than people tend to give credit in the book, but in the show, there is a very, very tiny window in which Laenor could have fathered those boys and that's only if they stick to book canon ages.

Looking at the actors and their ages, it's probable that the boys have been aged up. Alyn, we know, is already a member of the Fleet and has been involved in the fighting in the Stepstones. With Corlys also being aged down, I can see them going down a route of confirming that they are his sons with little ambiguity. Though if they're going to try passing them off as grandsons, again, I don't know.

However, even if they are Corlys's, I do 100% believe that Corlys still absolutely adores and loves his wife. How may these two things exist, you may ask? Humans are complex and Corlys is an idiot. And he's noble. Noble men, especially lords, can have bastards and mistresses and probably view it differently to how we view cheating in this modern day and age. We know that Rhaenys and Corlys fight, we know she sometimes feels abandoned. So I can see it being folded easily into his personality. If that is the route the go with.

We don't know any of the feelings surrounding the affair, not in the book and not in the show. In the show, we don't know anything about the circumstances or the timing or who the mother is and if Rhaenys knows or knew or what. The writers have, so far as I can see, large creative freedom. It could be that they are half-brothers. It could be that Alyn is Corlys's, and Addam is not and Alyn was born prior or around the time of Rhaenys and Corlys's marriage. We just don't know, so I'm not making any assumptions.

The ability to bond with a dragon doesn't have to come from Corlys. The dragonseed gene could actually have been passed through his mother's side, if one of her parents was a Targaryen bastard, I think. The books says: "Not all those who came forward in answer to the prince’s call were seeds, nor even the sons or grandsons of seeds" - suggesting that those were best placed to come forward. And we never know Ulf or Hugh's lineage, I don't think. Nettle either, correct me if I'm wrong. So I think it would be a mistake to assume all on Corlys's part, simply because he is Valyrian.

And yes, Laenor and Laena are the only ones who can ride a dragon, prior to the Dance, without the name Targaryen. Since Laena claimed Vhagar, and did so after Jaeherys dies, he would have had nothing to do with that. We don't know if she had a cradle egg. And Laenor... we don't know if he claimed Seasmoke, or that Seasmoke was a cradle egg. We simply know that they were bonded by the time of the Great Council, in the book, still during Jaehaerys's lifetime.

I can imagine Rhaenys fighting for cradle eggs and I can imagine Alysanne helping. Alysanne was living on Dragonstone during the birth of both Laenor and Laena (in the book), and is estranged still from her husband. Due to the proximity between the islands, I wouldn't be surprised if Alysanne helped to source a cradle egg. The other option is that Meleys produced them herself. We know she did produce eggs before Alyssa claimed her, for they knew her gender when they did - that's the only way you can tell a dragon's gender, so far as I know.

[renfairewolverine]

I’m not gonna say that daemon is an idiot or some shit but I feel like some people wildly overestimate his scheming and underestimate his love of family. They also refuse to comprehend that 2 things can be true. He can be doing something Kinda Shitty for his own gain but also genuinely care about his family as he does it. He explicitly says to viserys he wants to work WITH him, to be by his SIDE. He wants power yeah sure but he’s not willing to knock off the family he loves for that. And he does love viserys and rhaenyra. That doesn’t stop him from being an absolute fucker but it does keep him from kinslaying or some shit.

When daemon took rhaenyra out sure there’s likely some level of Scheme there, which kind and how much is up for debate, but he also has talked to her and in general about his opinion that as targaryens they should be held to a different standard. Other women can’t be wild and fuck whoever sure, but rhaenyra should be allowed to. Just like he can, because she’s a targaryen.

Things like the targ incest and the valyrian tradition of polygamy are things that are deeply contentious in westeros all the way into the time period of the main show over a century later. Westeros is not cool actually with incest or polygamy. But when the dragon men have like 20 flying fantasy nuke monsters and you have like serfs with pikes you kinda make some concessions.

It’s why Jaime/Cersei is a HUGE DEAL on like every level and considered super fucked up meanwhile viserys and dany talk about marrying each other/the history of incest in their family like it’s normal. For them it is. The polygamy thing has fallen out of favor because even when you’re a royal chad with magic nukes you still gotta pick your battles sometimes and this was one of them. Also over time they just adopt more westerosi/faith of the seven ideals/culture as they move further from the age of the valyrian freehold and become Just Some Weird Westerosi Guys. But daemon is of the opinion that the westerosi can eat shit bc he’s got a Fucking Dragon so he can have 2 wives and fuck his niece. Which is what pisses viserys off so bad. Like DUDE THIS IS SO NOT HOW THE POLITICS WORK NOW. YOU CAN’T HAVE A SECOND WIFE DON’T FUCK UP MY DAUGHTER’S SHIT.

And he DOES want her, for personal and political reasons. Both things can be true. How sexually into her he is currently debatable given how ep4 went but he’s 100% the kinda dude to be possessive over the 2.5 people he actually likes and she doesn’t wanna be married off to Some Random Asshole??? Great! How about This Asshole You Already Know! And bam now he makes one of the only 2 real meaningful connections in his life like 100x more secure and close. Locking down a partner into a strained relationship with a baby scare energy from this shit. But ALSO it gets him a LOT of power. Marrying her wouldn’t make him king. she’s the heir, she’s still inheriting the political power no matter what. He’d be king-consort at best, which is a very toothless position for the most part tbh.

BUT it would put him as one of the CLOSEST PEOPLE TO THE MONARCH and he’s already like, her Favorite Person from day 1 which we see in ep 1 so he would absolutely have a lot of capacity to advise and sway her which is just as good as sitting the throne. People like otto and tywin show us the power of being the monarch’s personal assistant and daemon has already said he wants that. Like yes this is all VERY schemey. He’s Scheming. Daemon is Preforming A Scheme.

He can hold 2 motivations at once he has 2 hands. It can be Weird Interpersonal Targaryen Bullshit and Political Machinations Schemey Schemey.

But I see some people implying he’s like, tywin or tyrion or little finger levels or some shit and HOOOO BOY NAH. Things like the necklace he gives rhaenyra? It’s not a 5d chess manipulation. He likes rhaenyra. She’s His Person. So she gets Gifts. Because he just thinks she’s Neat. At that point he’s literally working under the assumption that HE’S THE HEIR. EVERYTHING POINTS TO THAT. It’s why there’s the whole small council shitshow after aemma’s death— NO ONE WANTS HIM TO BE THE HEIR. Giving his fave relative a gift is not him being a godtier schemer and Knowing Psychically with his huge gigachad brain that buttering her up now will be critical later to his Devious Master Plan™️.

He’s not stupid and he does plan and scheme a good bit. Turning the gold cloaks effectively into his own private army stationed in the fucking capitol is genius and a super sexy power move. But he’s also shown to be impulsive, reckless and heavily ruled by his emotions. His whole suicide mission in ep 3 is FUELED by spite and the NEED to do this all by himself for the clout. They literally SAY this dude would rather DIE than ask for help. He also thinks he can do pretty much whatever he wants because of who he is.

You cannot be a varys/tyrion/tywin/little finger level schemer and be impulsive or reckless or overly emotional. I’d say also say you can’t be arrogant to the point of hubris as well but that’s like 50% of how two of them died after VERY long careers as schemers so uh you kinda can. Daemon’s request for rhaenyra’s hand might seem like a Master Scheme— like “oooo that’s why he did this!!! He’s so clever!!!”. But like— polygamy hasn’t been done since maegor the cruel. Even ignoring Lore Stuff that’s not actively talked about yet in the show like maegor the cruel viserys makes the “we don’t do polygamy anymore” vibes clear— “you already have a wife”. Boom. Shut down in 1 line. You already got one dude knock it off.

Alicent’s reaction to these claims is a LOT of things and it’s coming from a LOT of places but there’s absolutely a lowkey Disgust vibe because incest is, despite what it might sometimes seem in The Dragon Show Extended Universe™️, not actually cool in westeros— or essos for that matter!!! The targs have the “freaky magic dragon blood preservation” exemption clause but it doesn’t mean people are cool with it!!! Alicent even has to say “I know it’s different for you” to like qualify her statements. Daemon saying “I wanna do two of the MOST CONTENTIOUS AND DISLIKED TARGARYEN TRADITIONS AT THE SAME TIME WHEN PEOPLE ALREADY DO NOT LIKE ME” is uhhhhhhh NOT A GREAT LONG TERM POLITICAL MOVE AT THAT MONENT IN TIME.

He could gain the same amount of power he’d likely get from marrying her or frankly MORE from being being rhaenyra’s hand. If he was truly a gigachad big brain 5d chess schemer then he’d actually be working super hard to make her feel like he was her biggest ally and supporter. Viserys is saying she’s his heir but not really properly training for it that we see on screen. He literally has her ushered out of the small council for having an opinion on the kinda issue she’d have to deal with as queen. Literally a PERFECT educational moment for her and she gets ushered out in the most aggressively patronizing way possible. Daemon would gain SO MUCH from swooping in to “help prepare his favorite niece for the crown” and making himself integral to her decision process, sense of confidence, etc. it’s pm what little finger does to sansa (tho they do a shit job showing that in the show even tho they INSIST it happened in s7/8 jsjxjdslls).

Daemon would literally be doing more to put himself in a super sexy powerful position by helping to hype up rhaenyra, solidify her power and popularity and make himself invaluable to her on a pragmatic and emotional level. But uh….. he doesn’t…… bc he’s Not That Good At Scheming. Daemon is not a schemer or politician. He’s closer to a targaryen jaime in terms of like, his political skills and shit. Not an incompetent and not unwilling to play like ned or jon was but uh, kind of a reckless jock with bloodlust for days and some Emotional Issues that make him kind of attention seeking and a thoughtless arrogant dickhead. He can navigate the world of schemers and politics reasonably well but if he could just take otto out back and beat his ass instead he would.

[mkstrigidae]

This might be a lot since there’s so many characters in APWH, but could you share something secret about each character that no one else knows or maybe just a fun fact?

I am so sorry I’m answering this so late- I try not to be a human disaster, but inevitably end up being one most days.

Oooooooh this one is very interesting- they might not all be secrets, because for some characters, that would be giving away major plot points, but fun facts I can do! Let’s see what I’ve got (below the cut):

Robb: Has definitely licked a bone on a dare before, is actually a decent artist (much like Sansa) and does a fair amount of sketching in the field, and has an engagement ring for Tal in his work locker that no one knows about yet :) Inherited Catelyn’s ability for leadership, and is really good at dealing with Logistics, management, and the bureaucracy involved in his job. Hangs out with the experimental archeology students a lot (he’s like the accidental older brother for half the department) and would definitely wear handmade linen armor from someone’s project and let an undergrad shoot arrows at him to test it. (For those of you unaware, linen armor is next to impossible to cut without an extremely specific and sharp type of electric saw). Is good friends with Sarella, who’s going through grad school in Oldtown as well. Has been reluctantly dragged into the feud between the archaeology/anthropology and paleontology departments.

Aegon: is a fairly talented piano player, has always liked to cook, but got really good at it when he was dating an adjunct professor in grad school (none of his family knows about the relationship, but Theon does). Has been taking night classes recently to try and learn the Old Tongue bc he and Lyanna are particularly close. Dates casually, and volunteers at a community center for at-risk kids in Kings Landing on weekends. Is the only Targ sibling emotionally aware enough to spend time with Viserys, and is his grandmother Rhaella’s favorite.  

Rhae: Actually really likes listening to heavy metal, especially when she’s working, and is really into the Westerosi equivalent of late night comedy. Will get really invested in hobbies for like, a few months and then move on to something completely different. Is her grandfather Aerys’ favorite, and has him wrapped around her finger. Makes a game of antagonizing Viserys at Targ family functions, and has been inseparable from Margaery since they met in college. Thought her cousin Obara was the coolest person in the world when she was a kid. Most likely of all the characters to do a triathlon without breaking a nail.

Bran: Might be one sociology class away from identifying as an anarchist. Kind of wants to be a professor and will probably write novels someday. Is really into flea markets and will go antiquing with Ned and Elia and sometimes Cat. Loves kayaking and decorates his wheelchair elaborately for holidays. He’s won several costume contests at school for it. Very snarky. If Sansa had been raised by the starks, they would have had a standing Saturday lunch date to snark and gossip about the rest of the fam.

Jon: wanted to be a forest ranger for the longest time and then a writer, but felt like he had to choose a more reputable career, and is kind of jealous that Robb decided to say ‘fuck it’ and become an archaeologist. Really wants to travel, although he picked law after His Valyrian is passable (the targ sibs spoke it anytime they were with Rhaegar and fam), but he speaks Rhoynish fluently and is close to his cousins on the Martell side of the family. Really likes hiking and will often go with Cat, who is also fairly outdoorsy. Likes epic high fantasy novels and would really love LOTR.

Mya: is weirdly into dream interpretation, is bisexual, and has fallen into one of the canals in Braavos before on a school field trip. She was born in the Vale, and her mom moved to Braavos when she was five. Would definitely eat a bug on a dare. More tomboy than anything, but really enjoys getting dressed up and being feminine. Likes painting her nails fun colors. Who gives a shit about gender expectations? Not Mya.

Sansa: the first person she kisses in APWH isn’t going to be Jon…;) If she’d been raised by the Starks, she might have gone to school for journalism or become a novelist. Hates math, but is a passable accountant because of what Baelish taught her to help him with the books for his restaurants. Doesn’t like to ever wear her hair down, and has a collection of decorative bobby pins for updos that she’s acquired from flea markets in Braavos. Really loves to swim. Pushed the boy who knocked Mya into the canal in after her, but none of the teachers believe him when he accuses her, because it’s sweet, kind, well-behaved Sansa.

Robin: Secretly likes to listen to musicals and is a fairly good singer. In a group chat with Doree and Loree who are drastically improving his social skills and the three of them are parent-trap level plotting. Really dislikes doctors and hospitals. Used to ask Sansa to draw birds for him a lot when he was younger and still has most of them.

Rickon: is actually better with computers and smarter than anyone realizes, because he’s such a jock on the surface. Very used to going with the flow and adapting to change. His favorite classes are chemistry and bio, but he doesn’t really like writing. Is really popular and well-liked among his classmates, but can have a temper when he thinks an injustice is occurring. Is generally just good with animals.

Catelyn: Grew up going hunting with her uncle and always had a stronger stomach for it than Lysa and Edmure did. Is half-estranged from her father because of a disagreement they had regarding Catelyn’s inability to move on after the kidnapping, and a tense relationship with her brother after he married Roslyn Frey (The Freys were vocal supporters of Roose Bolton’s politics and had a hand in publicizing the rumors about the Starks being responsible for Sansa’s disappearance- Walder Frey owns several prominent southern newspapers), but they’re working on mending fences. Takes fairly long walks outside regularly, and would be a bruce springsteen fan. The most intimidating of the entire family.

Arya: Went through a true crime phase. Really enjoys learning languages, her favorite classes this past semester were her Ancient Ghiscari course and her global politics seminar, because they got to debate current issues every week. Like Sansa, she really likes people-watching. Will probably end up at the Olympics for fencing at some point, but was also a sprinter in high school on the track team.

Ned: Probably dropped acid at least once in college. Really enjoys skiing. Learned how to play the guitar as a part of his midlife crisis. Met Cat after she went on two dates with his brother Brandon and they decided they were better as friends. Brandon brought her to a party, and Ned ended up giving her a ride home after his brother found another girl to chat up. They quickly found out that they had a lot in common, and she got along famously with his mother, who Ned was extremely close to. Has a serious sweet tooth

Elia: Likes to paint, but doesn’t think she’s very good at it. Grew up speaking Rhoynish with her family, and taught it to the kids. Has forgotten more about art than most people will ever know, and is extremely efficient when set loose in a flea market. Really likes theater and ballet, and took ballet classes through college.

Lyanna: is working on a book about money in Westerosi politics that’s tied into her current investigation of the Boltons, but only Elia knows about it. Grew up far north, and her first language was the Old tongue rather than Andali, but didn’t want her kids picking it up, because the accent is stigmatized. Keeps notes for her articles in the Old Tongue to keep her nosy kids from reading them.

Theon: Is doing a psychiatry residency in King’s Landing currently. Does a fair amount of biking, and 100% does a polar bear swim in the ocean every winter (Aegon always shows up to cheer him on and they go out for drinks afterwards- his girlfriend, Jeyne, thinks this is insane). Refuses to eat blue foods and was actually a decent French horn player in high school.

Thank you- this was a fun one!! :)

[letbarbieshavedragons]

Dany or Jon?

I’m so sick of people just assuming Jon is Azor Ahai. Like he could be, but he really isn’t the best candidate. Also, I’m deisregarding the show here, bc the whole Arya thing kinda undoes all of the prophecies and Arya doesn’t fit the prophecy even a little, so I’m assuming the show has decided to do it’s own thing. The books however may be a different story and they do give us a number of requirements. Let’s go over them shall we?

1) Lightbringer: In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

Now this could be Longclaw. It’s Valyrian Steel which is forged with dragonfire thus the burning sword, but the prophecy says it would be pulled from fire by Azor Ahai, implying Azor Ahai would create it or reforge it or something more than simply being given a Valyrian sword like Jon was. Plus there are several Valyrian Swords, there’s nothing about Langclaw that separates it from the others. What makes Longclaw lightbringer and not the dozen other Valyrian Swords?

As for Daenerys, she doesn’t have any actual sword that fits, but many speculate Lightbringer may be referring to dragons. The followers of R’hollor often think of fire and light interchangeably and dragons are literal bringers of fire and thus bringers of light. And she did literally bring dragons or “Lightbringer” from fire, having walked into a fire to hatch them. Now this isnt exact, but prophecy isn’t always literal. Either way, I’d say they both fit this.

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

2) The bleeding red star:

This seems pretty obvious for Dany. She walked into fire and hatched three dragons under the red comet, a red bleeding star.

For Jon it gets a tad more complicated. Many people theorize that this refers the slaying of Ser Arthur Dayne outside the Tower of Joy when Jon was born. Arthur Dayn was the sword of the morning and thus wielded the ancestoral greatsword Dawn, which was said to be made with a fallen star. So that would check off bleeding star, although it doesn’t really address the red bit. But maybe that’s just in reference to the bleeding, blood is red after all. Even still this is a bit of a stretch to me. But once again, prophecies are rarely as obvious as they seem, so maybe.

3)Born admits salt and smoke:

For this one I don’t really understand how Jon fits. I’ve seen people argue that Davos represent salt bc he was a smuggler and Milessandre smoke bc of her fire schtick, but considering we don’t know how Jon is brought back in the books yet and Davos is never really associated with salt outside of simply having sailed in his past, this seems like a big stretch to me.

Dany is once again pretty obvious. She was born on Dragonstone (an island) during the biggest storm in decades : salt. Then reborn in fire in the Dothraki Sea. Smoke. The salt could also be in reference to the Red Waste or the Dothraki “Sea” because deserts and seas are salty. All in all, I think this fits Danny better.

4)Wake Dragons from stone:

Now here’s the real kicker, Jon doesn’t fit this at all. And Daenerys has done literally that. Brought Dragons from stone eggs. Which should be the breaking point, put Jon out of the running, but hey there’s is still time in the books, maybe Jon will pull something off? However he hasn’t done this yet, so we can’t just assume he’s Azor Ahai.

And while this may be nitpicking the prophecy seems to imply these will all happen together. Which definitly doesn’t work for Jon, but would work for Dany. Although I do feel that would be taking the prophecy more literally than perhaps intended and the wording is kind of ambiguous on the timeline of this.

She talks of prophecies ... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone

5) A hero reborn in the sea:

This is something I see a lot of people gloss over or miss. This also doesn’t seem to fit Jon, although once again he hasn’t been resurrected in the books yet. So we’ll see. This does 100% fit for Daenerys though, since she was ‘reborn’ in the Dothraki Sea. Once again Dany comes out the stronger candidate.

6) Born of Aerys and Rhaella’s line:

This was forseen by the Ghost of High heart before the tragedy of Summerhall. Both Danny and Jon fit this. They are Dany’s parents and Jon’s grandparents.

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

7) Could be male or female:

The show acredits this to Valyrian being gender neutral, but in the books Maester Aemon thinks it’s because dragons are genderless. Either way gender doesn’t seem to matter. Which works for both of them, all though it seems odd to have this scene if it’s not alluding that it was a princess that was promised all along. But perhaps it’s a red herring. GRRM loves those.

In conclusion, Jon doesn’t fit the entire prophecy. In fact, even when he does, Daenerys usually still makes more sense. Now I’m not saying it will be Dany and won’t be Jon, the books still have time, but it seems weird that everyone is assuming it’s Jon when Daenerys fits the prophecy so much better. When you google Azor Ahai Jon is mostly what comes up. And I’ve seen more than a few posts acting as if it’s a given that It’s Jon. Which all seems really backwards to me.

Maybe it’s bc Jon was literally resurrected, but I’d also like to point out Beric Dondarrion was resurrected like 10 times and no one thinks he’s the PtwP and quite frankly he fits the prophecy as well as Jon as far as we know. And there’s also Lady Stoneheart in the books. But she’s probably not Azor Ahai either. Resurrection in books is handed out pretty liberally all things considered.

*edit* I also forgot Nissa Nissa. Many people theorized Jon would kill Dany to fulfill this, but I’d like to point out Dany has already done this. In the prophecy Azor Ahai kills his wife Nissa Nissa to create Lightbringer. Dany has already killed her husband (Drogo) and used his pyre (and possibly his life) to bring her ‘Lightbringer’ (Dragons) into the world.

TLDR: Dany fits the prophecy much better than Jon, in fact Jon doesn’t even fit parts of the prophecy, but everyone seems to just assume it’s Jon. Which if it turns out to be Daenerys, will make the whole “we assumed prince, not princess” thing even funnier.