#imo dean would be more butch but

[loversofthegrave]

gender swap!dean winchester

[synesindri]

lucifer gender symbolism essay part 8: jarpad and mark p's acting styles

masterpost

this is largely subjective, but there are some aspects of how different actors portray lucifer on spn that can read as androgynous or feminine. to me, it stands out the most in jared’s depiction of lucifer, because it’s such a clear contrast to how he plays sam: sam!lucifer keeps his eyebrows raised, uses a softer/smoother vocal tone, and walks/stands differently (whether this last is just because of a difference in confidence standing up straight while moving slowly and kind of model-preening, or because it actually reads as more feminine, is kind of a toss up imo). 

lucifer:

sam in the same scene:

obviously they have different feelings here so they are expressing different emotions, but there are ways to convey smugness and condescending concern etc that do not involve this eye-widening, eyebrow-lifting, mouth-softening facial posture...these were choices that were made to make the characterization stand out in contrast to sam's characterization. sam generally does keep his eyebrows down etc, even when he's happy or insincere or bitchy; he rarely if ever uses his face the way lucifer does in this scene. lucifer's expressions remind me more of bela or meg than of sam.

mark p’s depiction (again, i can only really speak to season 5) stands out somewhat in contrast to other characters as well, for many of the same reasons. to me, nick!lucifer comes across as being acted more androgynously than femininely (again, just my own subjective take), but androgyny is very notable on spn, when so many other male actors portray their characters as very, well, to steal sam’s line about dean, butch. nick!lucifer’s voice is soft and it isn’t pitched down; he walks and stands with a fluidity and grace that is in contrast to many of the gruffer characters; he uses some phrases/gestures that would look odd on dean or bobby or castiel or whoever else. i’m thinking the finger over the lips in swan song, the “‘t’s okay, i’m not mad” line, the wrist posture in multiple scenes, etc. these are clearly all deliberate affectations on the part of the character; they’re all human mannerisms; they just are deliberate affectations that give the impression that gender was not an attitude lucifer was especially interested in conveying. gabriel moves very differently from how nick!lucifer does, but there is a parallel there, i think, because gabriel also plays with posture/gesture/vocal tone/expression/turns of phrase in ways that don’t always fit with how spn does “””Correct””” masculinity. 

anyway, like i said, this is pretty subjective. but it is something people have been picking up on in the fandom for at least ten years. here’s a historical post (not mine but linked on my blog from long after it was originally posted because there have been Deactivations…) as an example of the supernatural fandom historical precedent.

part 7: daughters vs sons part 9: sexual connotations of "vessels," stabbing, and holes masterpost

[twochildreninamoteldemo]

Happy WW Maven!! What might Samantha & Deanna get up to that Sam & Dean wouldn’t necessarily? 👀

ok so!! i obsess over spn + gender a lot, and one of my firmest beliefs is that the hypermasculine toxic masculinity-ness of sam and dean (mainly dean lol) keeps them from being physically affectionate in a lot of ways, but also makes the physical affection they do show more...sus. of course it's excused as "brothers," but....okay. lol.

now if they were both girls, they would be more physically affectionate, more "coupleish"--except that their behavior wouldn't be seen as weird...that's just what girls are like! on the other hand, i think the lines would be blurrier when it comes to sapphic homoeroticism and sisterly affection, and the sexual nature of their relationship could likely begin earlier.

i also think, as you said in your answer to an ask today, that they'd be willing to engage in more of their kinks as girls, particularly dean with lingerie & breeding. i do think that dean has a breeding kink in both directions--being bred and doing the breeding himself, and we know he has a milf kink, so i just know that butch!dean (or just regular guy dean) would be absolute nuts about breeding his baby sister, perhaps even going so far as call her mommy?? 😳 dean also canonically has an incest kink, especially if they're both girls, twins, and hot for him, and perhaps, in one of these worlds, deanna would want to put on a show with samantha for some guys, in a degrading sort of way. dean likes that sort of thing. he's a slut!

sam's tricker, imo. he doesn't talk about sex all the time in the show so we can't work off his baseline kinks, but, and i say this as a bottom!sam preferer/truther, i actually think samantha would desire to top dean/na more than sam would. she'd be that toppy femme type. i'm not sure why i headcanon it this way, but i do think that regardless of if dean was her older brother or sister, she'd be teasing him/her all. the. time. cutoffs, tiny crop tops, cleavage busting out, bare feet, the whole thing<3

not sure if this answers the question at ALL lol but it's what came to my mind<3

[laufire]

who is worse dean winchester or jon snow?

As a person, Dean is worse. No doubt. He is more damaging to those around him, crueller, more ruthless... And statistically speaking I’d be better off if I was related to Jon than to Dean, for example xDD (unless it’s as their aunt. Does Dean have any aunts? How do they do? xDD).

But as a character? And especially, as a lead/POV character? I enjoy Dean far, far more. He’s proactive, extremely competent and creative; he has interesting (if horrible!!) dynamics with other characters, compelling plots in this and AFAIK future seasons... I think Jon is boring and that his type of male lead is overrated and overused. Dean feels new lol. Which is hilarious as someone who always compares him with Elena (among others lol. I just love parallels when they fit), I guess, but he’s his own thing, really.

It also helps that I’m so removed from the fandom; SPN’s fandom is horrifying in general and the idea of interacting with some of the Dean stans I’ve seen sounds like my own version of hell lmfao.

Also, every time Dean makes a cultural reference he becomes slightly more likeable. STOP BEING RELATABLE AND WEARING MY CASUAL BUTCH CLOTHES ASSHOLE.

different/same anon (?): i feel like the biggest difference between dean and angel is that dean doesn’t have anyone who he loves the way angel loves buffy. (and i don’t remotely count his “love” for sam) i’m not even sure he’s capable of loving anyone in a bangel kind of way. 

Dean doesn’t have a Buffy, that’s true. I wonder how the show would’ve go, if he had (not a Buffy, but his own The Woman, iykwim). And how she’d be like to fit with Dean. Like I said, Bangel colours people’s impression of Angel, certainly my own.

I do think Dean loves Sam. But to put it bluntly, I rather never be loved by anybody, than being loved the way Dean loves Sam. To me, that kind of love would be a nightmare.

And that’s the person Dean prioritizes over everyone and everything else, so yeah. IDK that he has it in him either. I have a very different reading of him than other people seem to in fandom, in that I find him unnaturally cold and capable of genuine detachment (early s2 and his new feelings wrt John are a DISCOVERY omfg). I think Angel had those things in more quantities than most people, but it’s worth noting that Dean is a regular human in his 20-30, not a centenary vampire xDD. I think cold detached characters can make for great romances when it truly clicks -not because it softens them, but because it empowers them-, so if the show had started out there, who knows? But it seems it never did and the end result is that Dean had a pretty hardened heart IMO.

[littlehollyleaf]

(I had a really long, detailed version of this....... but Tumblr ate it D’: so this is... heavily abridged, sorry!)

Tagged by the ever lovely @castiel-saved-me-from-myself​ <3

pick 10 ships without reading the questions

Interesting... ok!

1. Dean/Cas (obviously)

2. Aziraphale/Crowley

3. Nygmobblepot

4. Foxma

5. Babitha

6. Amy/Rory

7. Nomi/Amanita

8. Eve/Flynn

9. Catradora

10. Cosima/Delphine

1. Do you remember the episode/scene/chapter that you first started shipping 6?

I think I started shipping Amy/Rory during the Venice fish monster ep - cos that was when I felt Amy really did love him back and they had a future together. Before I suspected that her running away with the Doctor was a sign she and Rory weren’t right for each other.

2. Have you ever read a FanFiction about 2?

Only read a handful of Ineffable fic. Overall I’m perfectly happy with the canon alone.

3. Has a picture of 4 ever been your screen saver/profile picture/tumblr?

Yes I’ve had Foxma themed phone backgrounds and a tumblr header :)

4. If 7 were to suddenly break-up today, what would your reaction be?

Disbelief and disapproval. Nomi and Amanita were one of the great constants of Sense8 for me. I think a break up would be out of character for them tbh. Plus it would be denying the black and trans characters a rare example of a happy ending, which would suck.

5. Why is 1 so important?

I wrote such a detailed thing about how DeanCas is not only important to me personally but also how I feel it’s been important for TV/media in general... ugh, tumblr!

In a nutshell - this ship helped me better myself in various ways. It introduced me to fandom,  which boosted my confidence and independence via increased socialisation; it encouraged me to write more, which improved my writing skills; meta discussions educated me on lots of issues, inc. but not limited to abuse, sexuality, gender identit, autism and racism.

I also genuinely believe that the loud and open fandom support of the ship has been a significant help in the ongoing battle for more and better queer rep in media.

6. Is 9 a funny ship or a serious ship?

Serious! Catra and Adora’s relationship is a core part of the whole show, relating to lots of the wider themes of abuse, toxic behaviour, growth and forgiveness. Plus the significance of a same sex romance involving the lead character in a CHILDREN’S CARTOON really cannot be overstated.

(but it is also cute and funny sometimes :p)

7. Out of all of the ships listed, which ship has the most chemistry?

I’ve spoken before about having issues with the concept of ‘chemistry.’ If I ship characters it’s usually because I find the combination of their characterisation and story arcs interesting/compelling. I often don’t notice (or I guess care about?) chemistry.

So I think I’m not qualified to answer this one.

8. Out of all of your ships listed, which ship has the strongest bond?

Agreeing with @castiel-saved-me-from-myself​ here - you can’t really beat the Ineffables millenia long romance :)

9. How many times have you read/watched 8’s fandom?

I’ve rewatched The Librarians 2 or 3 times now. It’s DAFT. But it’s fun. And Eve and Flynn make me feel warm and fuzzy.

10. Which ship has lasted the longest?

Again, as @castiel-saved-me-from-myself​ said - it’s gotta be the Ineffables, both within AND outside of the story, since Good Omens was originally published over 30 years ago and the Zira/Crowley shippers have been going strong all that time. Otherwise it’s DeanCas.

(though idk if Catradora was a ship back when the original She Ra cartoon was airing, or when the original cartoon was made, so it’s possible that is also a contender!)

11. How many times, if ever, has 2 broken up?

Lol at @castiel-saved-me-from-myself​ for getting Nygmob for this one, as their relationship is, like, 90% break up :P

For the Ineffables though it’s basically just the once - when Zira chooses Heaven over Crowley. Not made such a Big Deal in the book IIRC, but in the show it’s the infamous Bandstand Break Up scene.

All other separations are only minor, temporary squabbles imo. Which is what makes the Bandstand scene so PAINFULLY, BEAUTIFULLY, ANGSTY AND EMOTIONAL and why I love it so! 

12. If the world was suddenly thrust into a zombie apocalypse, which ship would make it out alive, 2 or 8?

I figure angels and demons probably can’t be killed by zombies, so the Ineffables are the most likely.

But Eve and Flynn did actually face off against zombie-ghost things in an alt universe during a whole Loom of Fate plot and survived, so I think they’d probably also make it.

13. Did 5 ever have to hide their relationship for any reason?

No, Babs and Tabs were always open about being together, even when Tabs was also in a relationship with Butch.

I might argue they hid the depth of their feelings for each other though, even from themselves, and instead made out what they had together was just a casual ‘friends with benefits’ type thing.

Though Tabs did hide things a little when she sent assassins after Jim cos she blamed him for putting Babs in a coma. She clearly knew her brother would disappprove, which is why she didn’t tell him what she was doing. I guess that kinda counts as hiding her relationship with Babs? She was trying to conceal how much Babs mattered to her?

14. Is 4 still together?

Lol, Foxma were never together (ALAS!). But the show did end with their lingering fondness for each other intact I think.

15. Is 3 canon?

Is Nygmobblepot canon? Rather a touchy question for the fandom tbh.

If we are talking EXPLICIT canon - then no. 

They never got a kiss or a MUTUAL love declaration (and they had a controversial ‘we’re brothers’ exchange in the penultimate episode) - ergo there is not enough, imo, to say they ended the show officially romantically involved.

However, Ozzie DID EXPLICITLY DECLARE HIS ROMANTIC LOVE for Ed, and that was never rescinded. There is also LOTS OF SUBTEXT floating around Ed to imply he reciprocates. Plus they did end the show together as clear Partners in Crime.

So is Nygmob subtextual canon?

I would say yes.

But explicit, CANON canon?

A frustrating no that fandom remains, understandably, critical about.

16. If all 10 ships were put into a couple’s Hunger Games, which couple would win?

I think a toss up between Nygmob and Babitha - because everyone else has too many morals that would hold them back from killing :p

(and since Ed and Oz have both bested Babs and Tabs in the past I lean towards them... but it would depend on when in Gotham canon the games were happening!)

17. Has anybody ever tried to sabotage 10’s ship?

Breaking up Cosima and Delphine was a LITERAL PLOT POINT of Orphan Black at one point, so very much yes! I forget the details (the show got very twisty, with lots of different organisations working on different agendas in the shadows), but I’m pretty sure Delphine was shot because she was protecting Cosima. I remember it BROKE MY HEART and I thought it was a casebook example of Bury Your Gays. But, spoiler: it wasn’t ;)

18. Which ship would you defend to the death and beyond?

Going with DeanCas, because I think that, historically, it’s the one that’s been in most need of defending.

19. Do you spend hours a day going through 1’s tumblr page?

Not anymore I’m afraid. Though 3 or so years ago I used to spend most of my free time on DeanCas and spn meta. Ah, nostalgia.

20. If an evil witch descended from the sky and told you that you had to pick one of the ten ships to break up forever or else she´d break them all forever, which ship would you sink?

Foxma. Because while I adore the idea of a messy, confused ~something between them, in my heart I know that Foxy deserves better :P

I was too tired to bother with tagging the first time I completed this - DEF not gonna bother now!

Play if you want - it’s fun :D

[dragonflysancientobsessions]

Goodbye seems to be the hardest word. [SPOILERS BELOW for MACGYVER 3X14 AND SPN 14X11]

Well, if I wasn’t depressed before - I certainly am now.

[Warning: random, rambling thoughts that wander into SPN]

I like that Jack called Mac over to tell him first.(Mac sure healed from the bullet wound super fast!)  I like that Mac’s first reaction was to go with him (’cause I totally wrote it that way in my unfinished version which may, or may not, share the title above).

I like that Jack got to pick his replacement. I’m not thrilled that it’s a woman (unless it’s Sarah!!) --ONLY because I fear the writers will move from bromance to romance as the core. Others may enjoy, but I personally fell in love with the show because of the bromance and *family* feel. Also, I”m still bitter about Jill. I imagined her and Mac together in 2.5 years, after years of UST, analysis paralysis and other people pointing out that they like each other. But, whatever, I’m not the writer. (Which is probably a good thing because I would unapologetically cause Jack and MacGyver emotional and physical anguish every 4.7 episodes just so I could have them hug and talk about their feelings in the Impala. ...oh wait, wrong show. But, well, yes.)

* Bozer is becoming a fine, badass agent.

* “Mac can’t stop looking at you.” Aaaand I’m crying and writing fan fiction in my head.

* Was “Keep track of my Bruce Willis collection” code for “Watch out for my boy.”? Regardless, it’s my canon now. “They mean a lot to me.” “I’ll be sure to keep an eye on them.”

* I love Matty so much. “You come back to us, Jack. That’s an order.”

* Poor Riley! (A lot!) “You and me; pizza and skeet ball when you get back.” *sobs*

* The handshake. Oh, that handshake. My emotions are conflicted. I mean, A HANDSHAKE. He hugged Bozer. He hugged Riley. He shook Mac’s hand.

And then it occurred to me:  Dean couldn’t say goodbye to Sam. (Yes, I know this isn’t Supernatural) The point is; he couldn’t bear to say goodbye to him. He knew Sam was the only one that could make him stay.

I think that handshake (back to Jack and Mac now) may have been all that they could bear. Did I yell at the screen for MacGyver to run after him for that hug? Yes. Will I write it in fan fiction? Possibly.

The truth is, I think the handshake (that desperate attempt (IMO) to hold the line on their emotions, on everything they held in their hearts) broke my heart more than a hug would have. Were they wanting the same as I? To hug and let those tears go? Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe they’ll save it for the reunion.

(That I pray does not only exist in fan fiction.)

And maybe Jack said everything when he called MacGyver Butch.