#illiterallylondon

[lj-writes]

@illiterallylondon​ The sheer length of our thread was verging on a health and safety violation, so if you don’t mind I’ll start a new one and make use of the cut tag. I will also attempt to categorize and summarize the issues, for any poor soul following along at home.

As I understand, the issues are as below:

1. Whether Finn could be interpreted to be a match for Kylo Ren according to your shipping pattern

2. Whether it is unfair to Kylux fans to argue that the popularity of Kylux is motivated in part by subconscious racism

3. Whether Hux is, in fact, more popular than Finn and Poe

4. Whether Hana Yori Dango proves the popularity of your stated shipping pattern unaffected by race

5. Whether you are a sea lion who leeches off others’ time and energy, then claims moral victory when others won’t give it to you

6. Miscellaneous

I will proceed in this numbered order, rearranging the points and statements as necessary.

1. Whether Finn could be interpreted to be a match for Kylo Ren according to your shipping pattern

So you insist, over and over again, that your interpretation of the characters is the only valid one and your interpretation of why Finn can’t be part of a megaship with Kylo Ren (or whomever) must hold true. You kept gerrymandering the hell out of your so-called shipping pattern, saying the characters can’t be moral opposites, can’t want to kill each other etc.

Except you admit that shipping patterns are malleable and not that rigid and furthermore don’t hold across fandoms, see Point 2 below:

2. Whether it is unfair to Kylux fans to argue that the popularity of Kylux is motivated in part by subconscious racism

“Yet you imply that Kylux is only popular due to racism by saying that if the shipping pattern was a major factor in the pairing’s popularity then Finnlo would be a ship, thus people only like Kylux because they like white people. Which, yes, is saying that race overrides characterization.”

You are completely misunderstanding what I was trying to do there. What I’m getting at is that your “shipping pattern” is bunk. You acknowledged yourself that this is malleable and based on fandom thinking by saying in regards to the shipping pattern applying to Drarry (emphasis added), “regardless of how in-character that may be.”

Also you contradicted yourself when you said near the end of your post:

‘I said in my original paragraph that your argument is that fans of Kylux are moved “primarily” by racism. And did not mention it being the “only factor” anywhere. At. All.’

You... literally said “[I] imply that Kylux is only popular due to racism.” So you did, indeed paint my argument as race being the only factor of Kylux’s popularity? LOL.

To address your constant assertion that I’m saying I’m saying Kylux is only popular due to racism (with ridiculous claims that characters of color should have no fans at all if this were true), let me try to explain it this way:

Let’s say a show has two characters, A and B, and ten fans. There are a number of reasons why any given fan might like A or B. It could be characterization, gender, their plot, background, all these are factors to different degrees. If race is a factor, it would--together with other factors--weight preference one way or the other. So if A is white and B is Black, seven fans might like A while three like B. If A is Black and B is white, four fans might like A while six fans like B. Under this scenario there are three fans who would have liked B better regardless of race, but for the fandom as a whole race still played a role in who was more popular. It doesn’t have to be a primary or exclusive factor, as you kept trying to paint as my argument, it can still be a decisive factor without being either.

That’s all I was saying from the start, that race affects fandom preferences as a whole. I’m not talking about individuals, but in the aggregate there are discernible patterns which you have acknowledged. If you agree, as you claim, that race can affect fandom preferences and is a factor, then we’re in agreement. There’s nothing to discuss and you caused us both to waste a whole lot of time and words over nothing. Happy?

“…Again, I’m forced to repeat myself, but Kylux shippers are people. Calling out racism in fandom is calling out the shippers who participate in said fandom. Unless you’re saying that shippers aren’t people.”

I “called them out” as being affected by subconscious racism. The exiestence of which you acknowledged. The only sense in which I called anyone racist (words that you put in my mouth, by the way) is in the sense that they are affected by racism in their fannish preferences, which is a systematic issue and not a matter of personal morality. The only sense in which you could possibly feel judged by this assertion is by making these systematic issues about yourself, which is exactly what you are doing.

Put another way, if you think subconscious racism in fandom exists but it’s unfair to say fandom racism has any meaningful effects (because they affect people, obviously, and that according to you is calling them racist), what would be a good way to talk about fandom racism? Is there a way to talk about fandom racism that you think doesn’t call people out or judge them for being racist?

Also notice the giant dose of hypocrisy in this:

“Thanks, again not a part of some of these fandoms but I’m taking your word for it [that conflicting explanations are given for CoCs’ comparative lack of popularity].”

So like, you think it’s sooooo unfair for me to supposedly call Kylux shippers racist, but it’s okay to call Rick/Darryl shippers or Steve/Bucky shippers racist? Because I’m actually applying the exact same logic to all these ships, that their popularity, and the lack of popularity of characters of color ships, are driven in large part by subconscious racism. Yet you’ll take my word for it when it comes to fandoms you don’t know. Why do you think it’s okay to call a bunch of people you don’t know racist?

Also, if you think this:

“Not personally a part of the MCU fandom (I tend to strongly dislike superhero movies) so I can’t speak to this point.“

is the same thing as this:

“I’m taking your word for it and accepting that as someone who is a part of the fandom”

...then you really need to update your communication skills. Like seriously.

3. Whether Hux is, in fact, more popular than Finn and Poe

“Hux does not surpass the hero in popularity in the majority of fandom, just as Boba Fett and Tarkin and TR-8R do not. However in more niche communities (Kylux AO3 fandom, Boba Fett/Tarkin fansites and certain SW fansites) they surpass the heroes in popularity.“

This is an unwarranted change of subject. From the very first post I was talking about what one might call “deep” fandom--the part of fandom that writes fanfics and ships characters. This is by no means the majority of the moviegoing audience, so your trying to shift the discussion to the larger casual fandom is a derailment.

4. Whether Hana Yori Dango proves the popularity of your stated shipping pattern unaffected by race (+ Buffy fandom)

“So let me get this straight: you previously argue that people of color can be racist (which I agree with btw), then go on to imply that the fans of BOF are Asian-American therefore racism likely isn’t a factor…?“

That is not what I argued at all, please read again. What I said was, emphasis added:

“Actually race still does affect fans [then going on to cite the disproportionalely Asian-American viewership of K-Dramas]“

This was in response to your statement that “I explicitly cited HYD as an example for race not affecting fans of a series.”

So like... I’m not sure how you got from here to there, but maybe calm down and stop jumping to conclusions?

Also, the part where I said “Also telling fans that they have nothing to complain about because Finn and Poe still have followings” was in response to this part:

“Kylo and Hux are more popular. It doesn’t mean Finn and Poe are unpopular within the AO3/Tumblr fandom at all. There’s nothing lacking in their characters, they just don’t fit the mold.“

Since my entire OP was about comparative popularity, not about Finn and Poe having some sort of following, this misses the point and comes across as disingenuous. Also, as discussed above, your whole “mold” argument is bunk.

“Buffy is more popular than Spike but Kylo is also more popular than Hux.”

Um... false comparison because Kylo’s not the hero, in case you haven’t noticed.

“My point in HYD is that. Again. The ship is non-white and falls into the shipping pattern, and is popular. Indicating that race didn’t bother HYD fans,”

Okay, so you’re moving the goalposts again and again here. I specifically talked about popularity comparisons between characters of different races in the same show, but you’re trying to drag the discussion to a monoracial show. Also, as I have said and you have accepted, this same shipping pattern does not hold in multiracial shows such as the MCU and The Walking Dead.

Besides, as I have already said, race (race, not racism), does in fact affect the viewership of K-Dramas. So in addition to being a derail your basic premise fails.

“The American version would’ve been much more popular if all people cared about was race and not characters that fall into a pattern of interest.”

I. Never. Said. All. People. Cared. About. Was. Race. Stop putting fucking words in my mouth, and if you want to rehash this point again please read my “A and B” example above. Carefully. Also you contradicted yourself yet again when you claimed you never claimed that I said race was the only factor.

I specifically made intra-show comparisons between characters in the same show because there are too many factors that affect the comparative popularity between shows. The American version of HYD failed because it sucked. I never said a show’s quality doesn’t matter and that race overcomes all other factors. Again, stop derailing and stop putting words in my mouth.

I already addressed your point about the YouTube video. Don’t try to waste my time more than you already have.

“To start with, I didn’t say that younger girls don’t write fic, just that most HYD fans who are teens (especially having a shitload of content for their OTP) aren’t as likely to produce content for said OTP. Which makes sense seeing as there is a disproportionate amount of fans vs the amount of fics in the HYD FFN archive.”

How do you know it’s disproportionate? This goes back to my point about casual fandom and deep fandom. Deep fandom is only a tiny, tiny drop in the sea of casual fandom. Only a small portion of HYD fans will write fic, but the same is true of any show. So your attempt to extrapolate some vast hidden fan base for HYD out of proportion to the number of fanfics doesn’t work, really. Especially since the original topic in the first place is deep fandom, not casual fandom, so chalk this up as yet another derail.

Also your points about K-drama and FanFiction.Net demographics are either hilariously deceptive or hilariously ignorant, I can’t decide which?

“Because compared to the other numbers in that study the 16-20 group made up the majority of K-Drama viewers.“

That’s... that’s not what a majority means. A little over one-third of K-Drama viewers are in the 16-20 group, which contradicts your assertion that “most of the HYD fans are teenaged girls.”

“Also in pointing out that FFN tends to have younger writers kind of confirmed my argument that searching for HYD fic in AO3 would be taking an inaccurate sampling since most teen writers use FFN.”

Um, “most FFN writers are teens” is not the same thing as “most teen writers use FFN.” Just pointing that out.

“The people who wrote fic for HYD were bound to post it on FFN, but most of the HYD fandom really couldn’t be bothered to write fic for it. Otherwise we’d have much more than 1k fics in the FFN archive right now.“

What... you’re not even making sense anymore... do you notice the circular reasoning? You’re starting with an assumption (FFN underrepresents HYD’s popularity) that is also the conclusion (HYD is a lot bigger than the number of FFN fics would indicate). Holy shit, this is such a mess. It’s like a car accident I can’t look away from.

“I gave you evidence which you responded to once and never mentioned again. How do you explain the millions of views on videos like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVxQ_g2NL6g) otherwise? If we’re taking the amount of fic to equate to the amount of fans (about 1k) then where are these millions of English-speaking people coming from?”

As I said above, only a small proportion of fans of any work actually write fanfic for it (”deep fandom”). This is true of HYD but it’s also true of any fandom. You have failed to show, except with your hilarious circular argument above, that the number of HYD fics is disproportionately small in proportion to its actual fan base. Of course the number of fics is smaller than the number of fans, because it always is.

5. Whether you are a sealion who leeches off others’ time and energy, then claims moral victory when others won’t give it to you

“I literally said that if antis really cared about their cause that much they’d be ‘more open’ to conversation. Not ‘they’d be open to spending enormous amounts of time’ debating with me.”

This is disingenuous, coming from someone who makes it impossible to carry on a conversation that doesn’t take enormous amounts of time and energy. For instance, my OP was 175 words long. Your reply was more than twice as long at 448 words, and you derailed and deflected and changed the subject and strawmanned in every single post until the thread grew into a monstrosity that I’m afraid to even do a word count for, mostly because I’d hate myself for how much time I wasted with you. I mean, I’ve already spent four hours after finishing a major project replying to your ridiculous points.

“If you think productive activism is screaming at someone who wants to talk then blocking them off without letting them speak, I’m sorry, but you’re not being productive.”

What I’m doing isn’t productive, either, talking to someone who debates either as dishonestly or badly (I don’t even know which, I think it’s the former driving the latter) as you. This is not being open to conversation.

“I have been very open to discussion and have actually had my opinions completely changed and renewed…I’d consider myself at least relatively open-minded, yeah.”

Open to discussion... by constantly putting words in my mouth. (And not even keeping your story safe on which words you’re putting, lmao.)

Open to discussion... by making a discussion that I made clear was not about you, about you.

Open to discussion... by constantly changing the subject.

Open to discussion... by using terrible math and terrible logic.

Sure, Jan.

“What am I doing now? Ignoring all your comments and not reading them?“

The part about “educating yourself” completely flew over your head, right? To be clear, “educating yourself” does not mean “demand that others educate you.” The subject of the verb “educate” is different in these two clauses, just so you know.

“So I’m meant to listen to the ‘grievances of fans of color’ but also shouldn’t ask fans of color to spend time talking to me. Gotcha.”

Are you really this amazingly literal-minded or are you being purposefully obtuse? Googling “fandom racism” is a thing? Reading the many, many articles by fans of color about fandom trends and fandom experiences is also a thing?

Going on to people’s posts and shoving your unwanted, stale opinions on them is not listening. Opening with “actually, this is why you’re wrong (and also how dare you call me racist)” is not listening.

“If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with pretending to be an activist so you can jump on a bandwagon of sending people hateful messages, then I really don’t know what to say.“

All it takes is searching “harassment” on my blog to learn where I stand on that sort of thing, but nice try painting me as something I’m not. :)

“So if I really was a sealion, I would have demanded that you respond to me in what was meant to be my final response by calling you a coward or something“

Did you read the meme originator comic? Being a sea lion isn’t limited to calling people cowards, it’s about implying that those who don’t respond are unable to defend their points or are in some way lacking--which is exactly what you did by saying antis would be more open to a conversation with you if they “truly wanted to change the situation, or help.” I.e. by not answering your points, they’re not being open to conversation, hence not changing or helping anything. People who didn’t want to talk to you (not talking about harassment, just quitting out of frustration) didn’t bother because, again, it’s nothing we haven’t heard before and you've shown yourself to be a dishonest debater. Also because they know when to quit, unlike me.

“If I really was after validation or whatever, I’d be using tags. You know, so like-minded Kylux shippers could find my argument and agree with me.”

Goalpost moving, after you’ve had it explained to you very clearly what claiming moral victory is. Not that I expect any better from you at this point.

6. Miscellaneous

“Also, Star Wars isn’t groundbreaking storytelling? Are you kidding me?”

So again we run into the problem of using words in different senses. What I meant is that there’s nothing terribly new about the characters or storytelling, directly in response to your assertion that Finn and Poe don’t fit “the mold.” You seem to have taken it in the sense that it’s not popular or good, which... isn’t the meaning of groundbreaking? But I see now that you mean the mold as in the mold of AO3 shipping, so whatever.

“Hilariously enough I actually disagree with the Hux fans (which you probably assumed I’d side with), although I do think TFO’s attack on Hosnian Prime is pretty comparable to America bombing Hiroshima.”

I didn’t assume, I only showed what I sometimes do on this blog. Thanks for assuming what I assumed, though? And no, it’s not comparable. Like, I believe the bombing of Hiroshima was a war crime, but it was not the deliberate extermination of an entire population without warning or declaration of war. Monstrous as Hiroshima was, Hosnian Prime is incomparably more monstrous.

[lj-writes]

Fuck it, I’ve decided to see how deep this rabbit hole goes. I feel responsible for inflicting this person on y’all, might as well see an end to it. If you don’t want to see my interactions with this illiterallylondon person you may want to blacklist “long thread,” “long post,” or "illiterallylondon,” or unfollow you see fit. My folks didn’t raise a mouthy argumentative bitch for nothing.

[lj-writes]

re: your last reblog. i didn't know a human being could be capable of being so eloquently wrong. it's like the twilight zone man

Or so bloviatingly. I should look away, but I just can’t.