#ignore issue of how often wlw ships are treated in comparison to mlm)

[sukibenders]

"Why did they make Michael into Michaela? They took away one of the hottest men in Bridgeton now!" Okay, now it's one of the hottest women in the show. What's the issue now? Still got Francesca and Michael, in a way.

"Francesca's infertility plotline is ruined now! It was so important in the books!" Why can't she still have this particular plot, while still being with Michaela? Why is that suddenly erased now that Michael is a woman? Do you not believe that sapphic woman can't also struggle with infertility? There are multiple ways that the show can still incorporate this.

"Why are they making everyone gay now? It was fine when it was just Benedict but now-" I'm going to stop you right there. What's wrong with having more than one queer character? There are multiple straight people in the show, and in most forms of media, but you draw the line at having more than one gay/queer person? Imagine what it's like for other queer people to not be represented or to only have that one person be a vessel for the entire community. Doesn't sound very fair right? Another thing, because I see a lot of people who say this call themselves "allies", it doesn't sound very supportive when you say things like this. It doesn't instill confidence in your support for the queer community when you can't even fathom the possibility of more than one queer person on your screen without complaint. It's okay to be a little bummed out about the change, but to use rhetoric like above feels very...it leaves a sour taste in the mouth personally.

[iant0jones]

The Gwen Cooper debate, part 2

So last time I posted about the Gwen Cooper discourse was a little less than a year ago (on Gwen’s birthday, to be exact). This post along with some fan content that’s been emerging recently has brought the discourse to my attention again and @javic-piotr-thane said I should finally state my thoughts on the matter.

Everyone obviously has the right to hate something, be anti something, etc, and I, a 19 year old who’s experienced like next to nothing ever, have absolutely no right to tell you what to think. Nevertheless, I’ve been in the torchwood fandom for over 2 years now and in that time I’ve witnessed and digested a lot of opinions and a lot of content on this matter, and I have quite a few opinions of my own. I didn’t post my opinions when I posted the debate because I wanted it to be focused on the fandom as a whole and not my opinion, but I think it’s my turn to take a few stabs at the discourse (not all of the stabs because it’s impossible to get all of my opinions down in one post, but a few stabs).

Many torchwood fans are very loud about their hatred for Gwen. Sometimes it’s through intelligent, well-thought-out discussion, and sometimes it’s comical bashing, and sometimes it’s “look, I just don’t like her, it’s that simple.” I believe fandoms as a whole need to stop taking themselves so seriously and allow people to say “look, I just don’t like [insert something controversial here], it’s that simple,” or “look, I really do like [insert something controversial here], it’s that simple,” and they need to stop policing that content and those people.

However, I also believe it’s important to recognize when opinions are caused by unhealthy habits/behaviors/etc. and it’s important to analyze and acknowledge why we fall into those unhealthy habits/behaviors/etc. For example, feeling the need to attack other people, especially women, because you think your opinion is right and their’s is wrong, or not accepting that it's always the creator[s]'s fault when a character does something you deem “problematic,” and not the character's fault. Or, I dunno, straight female fans getting upset because some female character’s getting in the way of their gay otp. Meanwhile, there are people who think Gwen can do no wrong and ignore her morally gray aspects, which is a disservice to the character and the creator[s]’s intent.

I like a balance. I want to see this woman from every complex angle she possesses. That’s difficult when there are so many writers for Gwen and so many contradictions in the torchwood universe, between the show, the books, the radio plays, etc. But I can try to address most angles here.

Gwen is a truly kind and empathetic character, and not as stupid as some fans make her out to be. She immediately hugs Ianto to comfort him as soon as she is able in Countrycide. She assures Tosh that she does not judge her for imposing on Gwen’s privacy in Greeks Bearing Gifts. She does the hard, emotional work in Torchwood when no one else wants to, like in Combat. She defeats the effects of retcon in Everything Changes. She says no to Jack’s desire to have loyalty without question in several episodes, like Adrift. She’s managed to survive everything Torchwood has thrown at her. She is tough, she has a mother-like need to protect, and she fights against what she feels is wrong when no one else will.

Nevertheless, she can also be selfish, self-centered, needy, a bully, and represent the promotion of unhealthy relationships. She cheats on Rhys multiple times. She retcons him after telling him that she cheated. She nearly cheats on him again, while in her bloody wedding dress, at that. She’s prying. She feels the need to attack other women to show superiority, especially in the books. She shows jealousy towards Ianto and undermines his relationship with Jack while simultaneously trying to earn Jack’s love.

This is the part where we get into the “straight female fans getting upset because some female character’s getting in the way of their gay otp” issue. I am not an avid shipper. I have very few ships that I am passionate about. However, my top two otps are Janto and Johnlock, and both of them have a strong female character that tends to get in between them (in Johnlock’s case, Mary Morstan). Now, as this is a torchwood post and not a Sherlock post, I’ll keep the comparison to a minimum, but it’s important to recognize the similarities between these ships and the reasons why fans don’t want women getting in between them.

Many people hate Johnlock shippers because some Johnlock shippers hate Mary and people think that we hate her because she’s getting in the way of us seeing two men fuck. They think we are fetishizing mlm and hating on strong female characters at the same time, which is an awful and admittedly wrong thing to do. However, these people seem to not understand that most Johnlock shippers are wlw who are looking for interesting, complex queer relationships that do not have to be imposed on by a straight woman, or the very heteronormative cliché of a love triangle. We want healthy representation.

I am a bi woman who wants to see Ianto and Jack have a healthy relationship, and I want the same for Gwen and Rhys. Gwen and Jack are, in my opinion, too similar, which is why they butt heads all too frequently and are driven by passion, not by sense. They would be just another uninteresting, unhealthy couple between a man and a woman on TV. That is not revolutionary. That is not good storytelling from a show that was so ahead of its time when it came to queer representation. Don’t be angry at Gwen for getting in the way of your otp making out, being fluffy, whatever. Be angry at her for intruding on the healthiest aspect of Jack’s life, and the healthiest aspect of her own life. Be angry at the creators for forcing another heteronormative love triangle created simply for the function of adding drama. However, do not be any more angry at female characters for the faults they have than you would be at the male characters that have the same or similar faults.

I definitely believe Gwen’s not the audience's perspective that RTD intended her to be. He alienated (buh dum tish) her from the audience by having her cheat and lie so many times. Also, I feel that the majority of the audience that has continued to be drawn to torchwood is a queer audience, and she is by far the least queer/the most arguably straight member of the team. She is also the one that causes the majority of her conflict/drama for herself in the first two seasons, while the other characters go through loss, PTSD, self-esteem issues, being ignored and unappreciated, depression, and suicidal tendencies; conflicts that are inflicted onto them by often uncontrollable forces. Most people cannot relate to Gwen’s faults or misfortunes, but a queer audience can (unfortunately) relate much more to faults and misfortunes of the other four characters.

And here is where I conclude my rant:

While I believe it’s important to continue this discussion on how Gwen and other female characters are treated by fandoms, maybe it’s time we stopped beating around the bush and started discussing the morally gray male characters that don’t get nearly half the shit Gwen does, like Owen and Rhys, or god forbid John, Jack, or Ianto.